Posts by gentlerider7

bluemason3 said:If you want more time to slack off, you have to make work hyper-efficient just so you can get it over with faster.

Plus, life is inherently competitive. Dreaming about a non-competitive society is like dreaming about having superpowers—it’s outside the realm of what’s even theoretically possible.

But I suppose this kind of delusional utopianism is just a materialistic substitute for religion, so expecting it to actually happen is probably asking too much.

And honestly, isn't that exactly what utopianism is? Just this endless, desperate striving to overcome our own biological limitations (you know, that whole thing the Hegelians call "progressing toward consciousness of freedom")

bluemason3 said:Telling Peter he needs a side hustle is pointless—he’d probably end up doing it anyway. If cleaning is his main gig, it just means he lacks the skills or the drive to aim higher.

Maybe he could rotate between the coal mine and the restroom.

Another issue, which makes that Marxist quote sound pretty idiotic, is specialization. I can DIY almost anything a plumber or a mason can do at my house, but it might take me all weekend to finish what they wrap up in an hour. That works fine for home projects or hobbies, but on a societal level, it’s inefficient. It wastes labor and produces inferior results, eventually making a community less functional and less competitive. Specialization and trade work much better than everyone trying to do everything poorly. Ignoring that because of some ideological fantasy is just counterproductive.

So, just imagine for a second—what if we weren't actually aiming for this kind of community at all? What if our whole damn goal was just to see how little we could get away with doing while still hanging around? Like, what if the ultimate mission was basically just finding new, creative ways to slack off and master the art of being completely useless? Can you even picture that? Just a bunch of us sitting around, dodging responsibilities and perfecting the craft of doing absolutely nothing while everyone else does the heavy lifting... honestly, wouldn't that be something?

I mean, look, even if everyone is just a bunch of selfish jerks because that's how they were programmed by this whole cutthroat capitalist machine, the reality is that this is just who they ARE now, right? They’re acting exactly how they think is "correct" or "normal." If people actually stopped thinking that way and started behaving differently, we wouldn't just be talking about some minor tweak or a little lifestyle change—it would be a total, radical transformation of the human soul itself.

Timothy Nelson5 said:In a utopia, everyone’s needs are met.
Isn't that basically the whole point of a utopia?

So, if some individual has this... let's say, intense urge to operate on people's brains, I guess there should be a way to satisfy that need...?
Otherwise, maybe it isn't really a utopia at all?
And then there's the question of, say, pedophiles, or that entire circle of sociopaths and fetishists... apparently, someone would have to cater to their... well, their "needs" too... 🤔

But why would there even be sociopaths in an utopia? That wouldn't exactly be much of an utopia then (even if you look at it through a realistic lens, no society actually tries to please absolutely everybody)

Alexander Thompson said:The only thing stupid here was the answer.

Seriously though, how would you even split that fairly? Like, if Joe Biden cleans the toilet one week and you take the next—is he just chilling while you work, or does he end up taking over your shift anyway?

They're just rolling dice.

Harold Doyle3 said:To me, utopian thinking just looks like an overactive imagination hitting a brick wall of reality.

I mean, I'll give you this much—imagination can certainly do a lot of things.

But honestly, why bother with the reality check? It’s not like anyone here is actually out there trying to force some perfect paradise onto the world anyway.

Harold Doyle3 said:The practical foundation of any utopia is right there in the name—you'd all end up drowning in filth.

Look, even if it all falls apart, isn't the whole point of dreaming up these perfect worlds just to kickstart the imagination? That's how you actually get new ideas to work with, right?

Donna White50 said:What was just described is socialism... we've been through it, and honestly, we'll probably see some version of it again...
A true utopia just can't happen. Beyond basic biological needs, most human desires are totally individual—it's almost impossible to satisfy them all at once. Capitalism tries its best to make that happen, often by basically inventing new needs just to open up more markets... which just leaves us with piles of junk based on "individual choice," plus a massive side order of injustice and inequality...
A utopia wouldn't work because it clashes with the fundamental nature of life itself—where everything is constantly shifting and flowing from one state to another... trying to force a utopia would be like going to war against biology, spirituality, and the sheer evolution of life...
Society, no matter how hard it tries, just doesn't have the resources to meet every single need or freeze them in time. That's why all systems are messy and constantly evolving—they rise and fall as needs shift and new ideas pop up...
At the end of the day, society is just the sum of a bunch of individual wants and needs. If a system manages to get close enough to satisfying them, it stays alive... but if there's too much distortion, it loses steam and eventually cracks or changes...

Well, some people swear by that logic, but then you've got the other crowd arguing that, deep down, we’re all cut from much the same cloth and driven by pretty much the same core desires.

Andrew Booth29 said:Then I’d tell you this: if we actually factor in reality, rotating people through different jobs is economically disastrous—whether it’s voluntary or forced. It comes down to that concept of opportunity cost I mentioned before. It isn't just about the money being wasted; it's about the fact that doing this would ultimately lower the standard of living and general welfare for the entire American public. I suppose I just can't figure out where exactly you've decided to draw the line between a workable utopia and pure delusion.

I don't even think job rotation is some kind of necessity—that was some other group's idea anyway—but if we're talking about doing things by choice, then yeah, that's entirely up to the individual. There's that famous quote from Marx:

"In a communist society, where no one has a single exclusive sphere of activity, but every one can carry out any activity he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus still permits me to do one thing in the morning, another in the afternoon, and a third in the evening; to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, and tend cattle in the evening; to criticize after dinner, precisely what I please, without ever becoming a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critic."

Andrew Booth29 said:No—but you seem hell-bent on imagining this perfect little world where everything bends to your specific whims. If that's the case, there isn't much point in us even having a conversation, is there?
The real question is: who actually does the dirty work in your utopia? In this dream scenario, people would just volunteer for the grunt work because they're so blissfully happy to serve the collective. Everyone would be healthy, brilliant, and attractive. Everyone would have exactly the same things. They’d spend their days frolicking through meadows picking wildflowers, and then—just like that—they’d switch over to performing brain surgery, piloting jets, or cleaning out pig pens. At the end of the day, they’d all just sing some patriotic anthem about how great the old leaders were... and head to bed feeling perfectly content. That’s my vision of it, anyway. Any objections?

Beyond that, your whole argument regarding stress is just a logical fallacy—specifically, denying the antecedent. But hey, go ahead...

Look, I said "less stress," not "zero stress." Even a utopia needs some kind of actual foundation in reality, otherwise, it's just an endless, mindless daydream.

Andrew Booth29 said:But honestly, your response to my post is...

Are you seriously trying to tell me that stress doesn't actually make people sick?

Harold Doyle3 said:And what about air traffic controllers and pilots? Are they just supposed to go out and clean chicken coops instead?

I mean, look, maybe it’s just less work and more downtime, right? Who knows? Maybe one day some pilot is just gonna wake up, realize the grind isn't worth it, and decide to head out to some quiet ranch in Montana to live off the land—it’s not like being a pilot is exactly easy work anyway, is it?

Andrew Booth29 said:I didn't forget—I explicitly stated that there is no valid argument against the nirvana fallacy.

But honestly, just dreaming up a perfect utopia isn't some kind of nirvana fallacy.

Andrew Booth29 said:The issue of opportunity cost still hangs over you, though. But honestly, since this whole argument is built upon the nirvana fallacy, there isn't much point in even debating it. You can't disprove a nirvana fallacy; it's unfalsifiable by its very nature. 😁

It's made all the more difficult by the fact that one side has somehow managed to claim the high moral ground out of thin air—which, let's be real, doesn't leave much room for a counterargument on a moderated forum like this.

Maybe you're overlooking one little detail here; if we lived in some utopia where everyone was perfectly healthy and hard work was basically non-existent, surgeons and doctors wouldn't have nearly as much on their plates. Less work, less stress, and way less grind for the medical profession.

Harold Doyle3 said:Oh, sure!
So, a neurosurgeon spent years sweating over Latin textbooks and memorizing every obscure detail of brain anatomy while some other guy was busy chilling out and selling nothing but hot air—and now you think it’s "fair" for them both to be out there shoveling manure in a pigpen? Give me a break.

Would you actually walk up to a surgeon while he's cleaning out a barn and say, "Hey, look, my neighbor really needs your help, so I'll take your shift instead," you absolute hypocrite?

Let's just pretend for a second that we aren't dealing with Maova China here and nobody's being forced into anything. Say the surgeon works a shorter schedule, maybe jumps in for an hour or two every once in a while to lend a hand to the sanitation crews or the farmers.

Back in China during the Cultural Revolution, things didn't exactly work through typical political reshuffling, you know? It was more about this massive, chaotic movement where they’d just uproot students and professors and dump them out in rural farming communities, and you had those Red Guards basically running wild and beating the hell out of intellectuals... it was brutal. Honestly, I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to dig up some decent books on the Cultural Revolution to see what it was actually like.

steeleagle77 said:In a utopia, there is no such thing as dirty work, because an idealist will pay any price to live within it.

You scrape the bottom of the barrel willingly. You eliminate class enemies at will, hand over family members to the gallows at will, and so on...
It doesn't matter if it feels like hell on earth, as long as you are moving toward that collective goal—a freedom where everyone is a slave, an equality where everyone is destitute, and a brotherhood where everyone would rather kill one another.

That’s not some perfect paradise, man, that’s a straight-up dystopia.

Donna White50 said:What’s missing right now is just perspective—you have the chance to pick whatever you want and live life on your own terms. You always have that option, you know? Just find some peace and build your own little utopia based on what makes you happy...
The thing is, most people would want all four elements floating in mid-air while someone else cleans up their mess and lives strictly by their rules, right? That's the real issue...

Some people would probably tell you it's just plain old justice that's gone missing.

Amanda Flores88 said:Talking about those types of jobs. It’s way easier to dream up some utopia where those roles don't even exist than to actually give the people doing them better status. I mean, isn't the whole point of a utopia to get rid of those kinds of gaps? But can we honestly build a society where people aren't constantly trying to outdo one another? Even if you wiped those specific jobs off the map, that drive to stand out wouldn't just vanish—you'd just end up with a different hierarchy based on time, talent, or whatever else.

I feel like there are really only two ways this plays out. You've got the Platonov approach, which is basically building this perfectly structured, hyper-rational hierarchy with the philosophers or the smartest minds sitting at the top pulling the strings. Then you've got the whole equality thing, which sounds great on paper, but let's be honest—that kind of total equality is only actually doable in a world where everyone genuinely loves each other and we're all just one big group of best friends.

Donna White50 said:In a total Utopia, every single need gets met—I mean, let's be real, nobody actually wants to deal with someone else's mess... so if you think about it, a true Utopia just can't exist as long as there's still garbage to clean up...
Look, let's be real for a second—life basically boils down to eating and... well, doing our business just to stay alive. If we're talking about doing that stuff out in the woods instead of using a bathroom, then I guess a true Utopia wouldn't even have toilets in it... maybe...

I honestly feel like cleaning the toilet is just a fundamental part of the whole bathroom process—like, you can't separate them. It’s only fair that we clean up our own messes, or at least pay someone else to handle it for us, so we can get back to being paid to deal with everyone else's bullshit and nonsense...

Look, utopia isn't just some fancy word for perfection. It’s more about having a North Star—something to help us imagine "what could be" if we actually tried.