Who's going to do the dirty work in Utopia?

So, if we’re looking at those gritty, soul-crushing jobs that nobody actually wants to touch—you know, the stuff like cleaning out sewers, hauling trash, or working deep in some dusty coal mine—how on earth would you handle them in some kind of perfect, imaginary system?

In Thomas Moore's version of Utopia, they’d basically just have criminals do all that dirty work (kind of like how things functioned in the USSR, where prisoners were stuck doing all the high-risk labor). Then again, there are always those weirdly optimistic people who argue there will always be someone out there perfectly happy to take on those kinds of roles.

I remember seeing this other thread about communal living, and people were saying that every single commune eventually falls apart because of these exact issues: like, who's actually going to cook the meals, and who's going to deal with the gross job of cleaning the bathrooms?

gentlerider7 said:So, if we’re looking at those gritty, soul-crushing jobs that nobody actually wants to touch—you know, the stuff like cleaning out sewers, hauling trash, or working deep in some dusty coal mine—how on earth would you handle them in some kind of perfect, imaginary system?

In Thomas Moore's version of Utopia, they’d basically just have criminals do all that dirty work (kind of like how things functioned in the USSR, where prisoners were stuck doing all the high-risk labor). Then again, there are always those weirdly optimistic people who argue there will always be someone out there perfectly happy to take on those kinds of roles.

I remember seeing this other thread about communal living, and people were saying that every single commune eventually falls apart because of these exact issues: like, who's actually going to cook the meals, and who's going to deal with the gross job of cleaning the bathrooms?

Look, it’s pretty obvious to me—jobs are handled on a rotation basis... unless someone physically can't pull their weight, obviously.
If a community can't even fix a problem like that—I mean, seriously—how the hell are they ever going to solve anything else?

Lisa Jackson7 said:Look, it’s pretty obvious to me—jobs are handled on a rotation basis... unless someone physically can't pull their weight, obviously.
If a community can't even fix a problem like that—I mean, seriously—how the hell are they ever going to solve anything else?

Spot on. Honestly, I don't see any issue with it at all.

gentlerider7 said:So, if we’re looking at those gritty, soul-crushing jobs that nobody actually wants to touch—you know, the stuff like cleaning out sewers, hauling trash, or working deep in some dusty coal mine—how on earth would you handle them in some kind of perfect, imaginary system?

In Thomas Moore's version of Utopia, they’d basically just have criminals do all that dirty work (kind of like how things functioned in the USSR, where prisoners were stuck doing all the high-risk labor). Then again, there are always those weirdly optimistic people who argue there will always be someone out there perfectly happy to take on those kinds of roles.

I remember seeing this other thread about communal living, and people were saying that every single commune eventually falls apart because of these exact issues: like, who's actually going to cook the meals, and who's going to deal with the gross job of cleaning the bathrooms?

Women.

It’s the same pattern we've seen throughout history. Women handle the cooking, change the diapers, care for aging parents, tend the garden, clean out the barns, scrub the toilets... and the list goes on.

Lisa Jackson7 said:Look, it’s pretty obvious to me—jobs are handled on a rotation basis... unless someone physically can't pull their weight, obviously.
If a community can't even fix a problem like that—I mean, seriously—how the hell are they ever going to solve anything else?

Sure, that sounds great in theory if you're just hanging out in a group of friends where everyone knows everyone else's business, but how do you actually pull that off on a national level across the whole US?

gentlerider7 said:Sure, that sounds great in theory if you're just hanging out in a group of friends where everyone knows everyone else's business, but how do you actually pull that off on a national level across the whole US?

Easy. The whole idea of rotation is built on fairness—and fairness isn't some niche concept that only matters when you're grabbing drinks with friends. It's a universal principle.

gentlerider7 said:Sure, that sounds great in theory if you're just hanging out in a group of friends where everyone knows everyone else's business, but how do you actually pull that off on a national level across the whole US?

It doesn't work. Period. You can't run an entire country like one big commune... unless maybe we're talking about somewhere tiny like San Marino or Andorra.
The whole "Dunbar's number" thing—you know, that limit on how many actual connections a person can maintain—is a massive roadblock for any community trying to act like one big family when there are hundreds of thousands or millions of people involved.

We really need to respect the principle of subsidiarity here... some issues should be handled locally, while others belong at the federal level.

ruggedraven36 said:Easy. The whole idea of rotation is built on fairness—and fairness isn't some niche concept that only matters when you're grabbing drinks with friends. It's a universal principle.

Then you'd basically have to turn people into ants or bees... just to handle the sheer scale of how many folks would need to band together.

In wealthy nations, this issue was settled ages ago. Immigrants handle those jobs. Local citizens consider themselves far too refined for such labor, even if they're struggling. The only real headache would arise if we lived in some perfect utopia without a low-income immigrant workforce to lean on. 🤔

That implies utopia remains out of reach until robotics can take over. Once then, we won't have any use for the impoverished class at all. For now, though, they’re still essential. ☕

Back in the days of the USA, they used to send academics out to help with farm work whenever things got intense, like if there was an urgent harvest to get through.

I guess what really matters is the psychological climate and how connected everyone feels within the community. When that exists, there aren't really any dirty or clean jobs. It’s kind of like how a mother doesn't really differentiate between clean or messy tasks when she's looking after her child.

I suppose if we don't find enough people willing to take on those kinds of roles, wages for those positions will eventually start climbing, and once they hit a certain level, I imagine someone will finally decide it’s actually worth their while to jump in.

Lisa Jackson7 said:Then you'd basically have to turn people into ants or bees... just to handle the sheer scale of how many folks would need to band together.

Total nonsense. Look, if we can manage to follow basic traffic laws across the entire country, why can't we handle a simple rotation rule at the national level? It’s straightforward stuff—easy to grasp, easy to accept. Of course, that’s assuming anyone actually gives a damn about fairness. If they don't, then this whole debate is just a waste of breath. You can't force someone to be decent—that should go without saying.

ruggedraven36 said:Total nonsense. Look, if we can manage to follow basic traffic laws across the entire country, why can't we handle a simple rotation rule at the national level? It’s straightforward stuff—easy to grasp, easy to accept. Of course, that’s assuming anyone actually gives a damn about fairness. If they don't, then this whole debate is just a waste of breath. You can't force someone to be decent—that should go without saying.

Well, if that's the case—and if being fair is really our top priority—then I guess we should probably start rotating through all the dream jobs, too. Personally, I think I'd be a pretty decent surgeon, or maybe a university professor, a ballerina, a theater actor, or even a pilot! 🤔

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Well, if that's the case—and if being fair is really our top priority—then I guess we should probably start rotating through all the dream jobs, too. Personally, I think I'd be a pretty decent surgeon, or maybe a university professor, a ballerina, a theater actor, or even a pilot! 🤔

Sure. Provided you actually have enough time to go back to school for every single one of those degrees.

The real question here is defining what constitutes "dirty" work. The original poster pointed to cooking, but honestly, there are plenty of people out there who wouldn't dream of calling a kitchen a dirty environment.

Personally, I don't view any job as inherently dirty, though I suppose being raised as a woman in this society might have shaped my perspective on such things.

Sam Martinez9 said:Sure. Provided you actually have enough time to go back to school for every single one of those degrees.

The real question here is defining what constitutes "dirty" work. The original poster pointed to cooking, but honestly, there are plenty of people out there who wouldn't dream of calling a kitchen a dirty environment.

Personally, I don't view any job as inherently dirty, though I suppose being raised as a woman in this society might have shaped my perspective on such things.

No, that’s not it at all—I only mentioned cooking because someone in another thread was complaining about how municipalities are basically falling apart because nobody wants to do the service work, like cooking or cleaning toilets. It’s just that "unpleasant" stuff was brought up earlier; you know, things like mining, trash collection, window washing skyscrapers, digging trenches, all that. And let's be real, most of those heavy-duty gigs, like working in a mine, have historically been dominated by men anyway, so this whole debate doesn't even have anything to do with feminism.

Sam Martinez9 said:Sure. Provided you actually have enough time to go back to school for every single one of those degrees.

The real question here is defining what constitutes "dirty" work. The original poster pointed to cooking, but honestly, there are plenty of people out there who wouldn't dream of calling a kitchen a dirty environment.

Personally, I don't view any job as inherently dirty, though I suppose being raised as a woman in this society might have shaped my perspective on such things.

To me, "dirty jobs" are quite literally dirty. I mean, you can't exactly show up to work as a chimney sweep in a crisp white button-down and expect that shirt to stay spotless by the end of the shift, right? That's what I mean when I say dirty.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Well, if that's the case—and if being fair is really our top priority—then I guess we should probably start rotating through all the dream jobs, too. Personally, I think I'd be a pretty decent surgeon, or maybe a university professor, a ballerina, a theater actor, or even a pilot! 🤔

I'd happily step into Eric Adams' shoes, but he seems pretty set on staying put. 😁

Kenneth Cruz67 said:To me, "dirty jobs" are quite literally dirty. I mean, you can't exactly show up to work as a chimney sweep in a crisp white button-down and expect that shirt to stay spotless by the end of the shift, right? That's what I mean when I say dirty.

And yeah, even if you look at it from the angle that these roles are usually the ones nobody actually wants to apply for, that doesn't mean there aren't folks out there who genuinely dig being a garbage man, a miner, or whatever else...

Kenneth Cruz67 said:To me, "dirty jobs" are quite literally dirty. I mean, you can't exactly show up to work as a chimney sweep in a crisp white button-down and expect that shirt to stay spotless by the end of the shift, right? That's what I mean when I say dirty.

And being a surgeon is pretty damn messy, too.

Sam Martinez9 said:And being a surgeon is pretty damn messy, too.

That is exactly my point! I mean, if we actually reached a point where a surgeon’s salary was basically the same as a coal miner's, I guess we would just see a massive wave of people signing up to work in the mines.