Posts by Susan James

Interesting

The proof is right there in how most elementary schools are set up. Religious studies is basically baked right into the regular daily schedule, while almost all other elective subjects require students to switch to a different shift. It’s a real headache for kids who didn't sign up for religious education when it gets slotted right in the middle of their day or first thing in the morning. Honestly, it seems like a lot of principals just look the other way because they don't want any friction with the local church leadership here in America.

It seems like keeping things smooth with the church takes priority over actually looking out for the kids.🙏
Based on Christian teachings, this isn't right at all. I’m also pretty certain that Jesus would be ashamed of this situation.

From the conversations I've had with parents—and I've heard quite a few lately, especially during birthday parties for the preschool crowd and chatting with neighbors near the local schools—a lot of them feel awkward about being pressured to attend Mass on Sundays. They haven't really done that in years and wouldn't necessarily go, unless it was just to show their kid what a service looks like.
Only a couple of people were actually "brave" enough to unenroll their child entirely since they don't attend Mass and have no intention of starting.
I really hope that in the future, when enrolling a child in religious education, schools start asking for (and requiring a signature for) which parish the family belongs to, whether they actually attend Sunday services, and if they plan to continue.
Maybe then we'd see fewer kids signed up for it.

William Bennett53 said:http://news.yahoo.com/lifestyle/priest-threatening-families-over-school-choices

(My apologies if someone has already shared this link.)
To put it briefly, a local priest is issuing written threats to parents and their high school students. He’s essentially telling them that if they choose to enroll in an ethics course instead of religious studies, or if they fail to attend Mass, he will refuse to authorize them to serve as godparents in the future.

I’ve actually seen this one before.
🤣
I think Tomic gave a pretty blunt response to this (even though it wasn't directly about this, more about Blankie).

When I really sit down and think about it, it’s honestly sad that they feel the need to resort to threats.
It shouldn't be about coercion; it should be about free will and making a choice.
I was just thinking—what if a parent tells the school they want their kid to take extra math tutoring instead of religion? That poor teacher would be absolutely losing it! 😢

Just as a quick comparison: back in the late eighties, I used to go to religious education at my local parish. We met twice a week, either before or after school. Personally, I look back on it as such a lovely experience—the conversations were great, and there were so many games, songs, and laughs.
Since I was also taking rhythm and ballet classes, the schedules sometimes overlapped when school was in the afternoon. There were times I’d miss a session or join an older group instead. I never had any issues or felt threatened. In fact, I didn't even have to join the older group in the mornings, but I thought it was pretty cool.

Nancy Kelly31 said:And when is the math remedial scheduled for those students enrolled in religious studies? I would be absolutely incensed by such a "solution"... ☕ It carries the implicit suggestion that children in religious education are somehow more intellectually gifted than their peers—as if these poor souls require extra help, while the others are apparently sharp enough to grasp everything on the first try. 😛

Actually, I think it implies the non-religious kids are twice as smart, since this is framed as extra credit or enrichment—basically, it's for those who want to go above and beyond.
The school will organize tutoring regardless.

And don't worry, if anyone is being left out here, it's just the kid sitting alone in the hallway after school.

Plus, what are the kids who don't take religion supposed to do? They don't need tutoring, but they shouldn't be left without any enrichment either, right?
What are they doing during those four hours at school? Especially for the kids in the after-school program who can't head home early. Even if it's just the last period of the day, they still need something productive to do.

What kind of stay? I mean, aren't we all just hanging out in the same classroom together?

frozenrider15, let's be real—you didn't enroll her in religion classes just for the sake of faith; you did it because you needed childcare. If she needs extra tutoring and they offer it during religious studies, you can just pull her from the religious class, get the tutoring instead, and still have the kid accounted for.
By the way, does anyone know how many hours of mandatory tutoring teachers actually have to provide for first graders?
Also, where do the kids go who don't need tutoring, extra help, or religious studies?

Both Frupy and you have been awarded 10 points for this discussion.
To be honest, you probably could have earned even more, but I decided to just wipe the slate clean since the thread had veered off track and turned into a bit of a petty back-and-forth.

Sandra Bennett22 said:I actually got a warning today for this,
(the post was deleted, and since the link came from my PP notification, I'm not sure if you guys can even see it)
where I was trying to tell frupy to stop making everything so personal. I wasn't attacking her at all; I was just trying to provide an example that stayed on topic rather than getting into a back-and-forth call-out..

Well, both you and frupy ended up with a warning. It was just one mark for each of you, despite there being several posts involved, and honestly, it was pretty light—if the system had been any stricter, a warning would have turned straight into a ban.
Both yours and hers had quite a few posts wiped too.

rowdypanther12 said:Look, I agree that sometimes you have to step up, take charge, and do what needs to be done when the situation calls for it.
But I honestly feel like there's this manufactured narrative that children are inevitably going to be "marked," alienated, or mistreated...
Nobody actually wants that for their kid. That’s why people sign them up for religious studies for no real reason, and then they get annoyed when they're expected to actually show up to church.

🙂

I see it a bit differently.

Sure, kids aren't being "marked" or anything—that's mostly just perception—but they definitely end up getting blamed for things they shouldn't be.
For example, whenever something goes wrong at school, like someone tagging a wall or breaking equipment, the first kids they look at are the ones who weren't in class but were still on campus.
And honestly, that’s where those who skipped religion class really get the short end of the stick, because they’re wandering the hallways without any supervision (it's happened before). I'm not saying the kids in class are always innocent, but they aren't the ones responsible. Sometimes a parent will enroll their child in that class just to ensure they are under some kind of adult supervision to avoid any trouble. Plus, some kids are naturally more energetic and really do need that extra oversight.
What I mean is, it isn't just about religious discrimination; it's about parents who, if they don't know the exact schedule for electives like religion or computer science, just sign their kid up so they aren't left to explore secret hallway routes or hang out unsupervised.

Things get even messier with other electives, too—like a second language, religion, or computer lab. There are always kids roaming the halls during class because it's impossible to schedule everything perfectly. And can you imagine the chaos if they scheduled religion and computer science at the exact same time? 😲, people would be forced to choose, and everyone would probably just pick computer science.

Jeremy Fowler45 said:They scheduled Sreca for the very last hour here, so she’s heading home now..
She's also the only one skipping religious studies..
Same goes for the first graders..

Sent from my iPhone 5 using Reddit

It's the same at our place—once a week during the last period (well, technically one week it's the very last hour, and another it's the second to last; their schedule shows an extra makeup session, so she mentioned they'll be outside during that time).
But honestly, what does that even matter when she's in after-school care and refuses to come home? And since she isn't ready to walk home alone yet, I'd have to drag my grandma into the mix to help out. I actually feel for the other two parents here, too—it's a real dilemma. I'd either have to pick up all the kids and watch them at my place, or leave this one child by themselves during that hour. I chatted with some other parents, and while some can just take their kids home, others absolutely can't...

silentraven6 said:That sounds like a total disaster. Honestly, I think you need to file a formal withdrawal request. You might want to see if the Vatican has specific regulations on this—maybe they only allow withdrawals right before the new school year starts? It's worth a quick search online to be sure.

Maybe try asking the teacher if there's any wiggle room. Since the school year just kicked off and they're only in first grade, there might be an out. My kid went to one session and came home with his textbook; I didn't even have him write anything down. I told them beforehand that I wasn't sure about it and that we’d give the subject a fair shot first.

Kika, what they're doing to your child is completely unacceptable. If I were you, I’d take the advice from the other folks on this forum.

Here’s a sample text you could use. And frankly, here is some cold, hard evidence for everyone posting here about religious studies being an "elective." People clearly don't grasp the actual issues at hand because they keep hiding behind the excuse that it's an optional course.

I am getting closer and closer to just giving up on my kids receiving any more sacraments and formally leaving the Catholic Church. I just can't do it anymore. No amount of excuses from their moronic policies works for me, whether I'm praying or talking it out with theologians. It is honestly disgusting how these bureaucrats push their own agendas just to serve themselves.

Lately, I’ve been hearing quite a few religious educators venting about where their classes actually fit into the school schedule. It seems like in certain districts, religion classes are constantly being pushed to the sidelines or tucked away at awkward times. Whether it’s during those early zero or seventh periods, or even when you're working the opposite shift alongside other electives and extracurricular activities, there's always a way to make it work. They’re trying to justify it by pointing out that religion classes are elective, but I have to wonder—do the people in charge of school scheduling and organization actually have the right to set things up that way?

Honestly, I feel like there are just so many people out there doing absolutely nothing of value, yet they still act like they're essential to the world. It’s kind of frustrating to see! 😠

I’d love to know which school they’re talking about—who on earth is the lucky person getting the opposite shift?
The best part about those zero-period classes—especially when they're scheduled first thing in the morning—is that they mostly just inconvenience people who already cruised through college and landed solid jobs without breaking a sweat. Now, they’re stuck dragging themselves out of bed way too early. But hey, I guess if you're one of those kids sitting alone in the hallway, you probably don't care at all. It likely fits right in with their whole "holier-than-thou" moral compass.

Hey Kika, it might be a good idea to send an inquiry to this address as well. It would be worth seeing what they have to say about having the first graders sitting right there in the hallway by themselves. Also, I'd love to hear their take on whether or not teachers should be paid extra to supervise them, especially now that elective religious studies has been added to the official schedule alongside all the mandatory subjects.

By the way, if my kid is spending about two hours a week at school just sitting around doing absolutely nothing—she’s around 10 months old in terms of her grade level—does she actually have the right to take two days off? I'm wondering if I can just keep her home without it counting as an unexcused absence, or better yet, if there's a way to make sure those hours don't even show up on her attendance record at all.
I’m currently stockpiling my vacation days so I can actually travel without having to deal with those endless, soul-crushing faculty meetings.

Ethan Scott2 said:I feel like I’m just dropping in out of nowhere here... but I’ve run into a bit of a situation; my first grader is the only kid in the whole class who isn't attending religious education classes (there were two others initially, but they changed their minds right at the start and joined the group, so now he's the odd one out)... so he just sits out in the hallway during those periods drawing or whatever he feels like doing... I mentioned to the teacher that it really bothers me having him out in the hall without any real supervision while class is in session, and she just brushed it off, saying she checks on him a few times and that since he's right by the teachers' lounge, the principal and all the other faculty are basically right there... I tried pointing out that if something were to actually happen to him... well, we all know how quickly things can go sideways, right?... So, what can I actually do about this... the library hours don't line up with the religious ed schedule at all... who am I supposed to talk to, and is there even any way to change how this is being handled?

🙂
This honestly sounds so heartbreaking.
I wouldn't even focus on the "what if something happens" part—I truly believe they'll be fine—but it just makes me sad to think of a child who’s supposed to be in school sitting out in the hallway like they're being punished. Just sitting there alone.
That's awful.
Right at the very beginning of their schooling, too.😢
Basically kicked out of the classroom.😢

We knew from the jump that there would be at least two other kids joining her, and I figured those parents wouldn't change their minds halfway through the term. Personally, I wouldn't agree to them sitting in the hall either, even if the teacher is checking in, just because you want them to be under someone's eye.

You should definitely reach out to the Child Advocate—they actually posted something about religious education recently—and maybe look into some advocacy groups or even contact the Department of Education.
Before that, try talking to someone else at the school again (maybe a counselor or the principal). Instead of framing it as "what if something happens," maybe approach it by saying you don't want your child to feel singled out by sitting in the hallway, which doesn't seem appropriate for a kid just starting school. Maybe they could move the class to an earlier period or find a dedicated space where the child can do something productive without being interrupted.
🙂
(The emoji I'd use isn't quite right for this, but still)

Is this happening in other grades too?

Michelle Nelson4 said:I honestly don't get what you're expecting from an American Catholic religion class. Freedom of thought? Open debate? Not really. You're expected to learn the prescribed doctrines with the same level of unquestioning certainty you'd apply to basic math. Have you actually looked at the textbook or the curriculum? One of the main reasons I decided not to enroll my child in those classes was because I didn't want to spend my evenings listening to a bunch of nonsense and misinformation at home, let alone having to help her memorize it. For instance, she once sat in on a single session and came home asking this "deep" question about why Jesus has five wounds but only four thorns. I just told her, "I have no idea, and frankly, you don't need to know either since you aren't officially in the class."

Now, she’s actually having a blast during that period. At least once a week they get to borrow something from the library, draw, or just play around. Yesterday, she told me that during their library hour, she was pretending to be Hermione and casting spells—apparently, they had the best time ever.

😍

Totally agree!

Our kids were actually out on recess during religion class this week 🙏
and I’ve noticed the number of kids skipping that class is starting to creep up. 👏

wanderingbadger44 said:wanderingbadger44 said:

I haven't heard from you in a while, SOHO_. wanderingbadger44 says: What would a religion teacher actually lose if the rest of the class decided they’d rather opt out of the course entirely? It feels like a bit of a hollow victory for those who choose to skip, almost like a coach losing their entire roster right before the big game—you’re left standing on the field with nothing to coach and no one to guide. The whole issue really traces back to the Department of Education and how they authorize the formation of new classroom sections. It’s a bit like a domino effect; once you increase the number of classes, you’re essentially forced to expand the weekly schedules for every teacher—take history teachers, for instance, who would see an extra couple of hours added to their load. And of course, as those teaching hours climb, the school is then obligated to bump up the teachers' salaries accordingly. It feels like everything you look at lately, even when it comes to stuff like HBO, just points toward some kind of grand conspiracy. 🙄.

Let's try it this way:
With a hundred first graders enrolling this year, the school ended up splitting them into five separate classrooms.
Out of those hundred kids, twenty of them aren't even stepping foot in religion class.
I could potentially set up four religious studies departments along with one secular one.

The schedule stays exactly the same for all the teachers, even those handling specialized subjects in the upper grades. Whether we shuffle things around or not, the number of classrooms doesn't change—it’s five sections regardless of how you slice it. So, everyone ends up with the same workload, with one exception: the religion teacher, who has one fewer section, which works out to two fewer hours on their plate.

Yeah, one of the main reasons is that they’re just squeezing every last cent out of teachers through their hourly rates. It lines up perfectly with the other issue, which is basically just legalized segregation. Honestly, I’d take outright discrimination over this kind of systemic segregation any day. 👋

I find myself constantly coming back to this one rather bittersweet mathematical truth: for every single physicist we produce, there were four teachers who paved the way. For every chemist, there are four teachers behind them. For every biologist, you can count on four teachers. And when it comes to a musician, you’re looking at at least six dedicated educators who helped shape that talent.

It feels like we only get a tiny glimpse of physics, chemistry, and biology during those two years in middle school—just a couple of hours a week—yet religious studies gets four times the attention, staying on the schedule for all eight years of elementary and middle school. It’s a bit like spending all your time studying the history of a hobby while barely scratching the surface of how the actual tools work.

If we assume that religion classes are being taught with the same frequency across almost all high schools, then the math gets even more unsettling when you realize there are schools out there that don't even offer biology, chemistry, or physics.

That is just awful 😢

Yesterday, a colleague managed to get under my skin so badly during our ten-minute drive from work to school that I went out of my way to avoid her entirely today.
She seems to think all first graders should start their education with the exact same schedule and subjects, without any gaps or being separated from their main teacher. She believes they need to establish a routine of arriving and leaving school, and she argues that having religious studies as the first or last period makes that impossible. Her logic is that because it's offered, every child should take it just to maintain that structure.
She actually suggested that I’m doing my child a disservice because she’ll spend two extra hours bonding with her teacher. She implied that if the teacher gets to know her and these two other kids better than the rest of the class, it would be "unfair" to everyone else, and that as an expert working with other children, I should have been more mindful of the whole class instead of my own kid. 🤮 🤮

Since I'm a devout believer heading toward retirement and I sing in the church choir, I didn't feel like getting into a debate about Vatican agreements or my personal views on God and the meaning of faith. I just told her that it’s an elective, and as long as it’s an elective, I am perfectly free to choose whether or not we participate.
I did agree with her regarding the routine part; I think it is helpful for kids to have one primary teacher at the start of school—maybe two if they stay for after-school programs—rather than having one main teacher, one for after-school care, one for religious studies, one for English, and one for PE or art. If you have specialists with reduced hours, a child enters the world facing a massive crowd of people with a mountain of demands (not to mention all the extracurricular activities).

Then, as I was leaving today, she tells me she’s been thinking about what I said. She actually thinks it’s silly that we added religious studies to the curriculum for the little ones, claiming it’s too "adult" for them anyway, and that they aren't learning anything in those lower-grade classes that they couldn't learn at home or that practicing Christians don't already know.

Looking at your statistics now, I think I'll bring that up to her on Monday.
Who knows, maybe she'll spread the word through the whole church. 🤣 🙂
(Maybe then they'll drop foreign languages in the lower grades and just move the religious studies teacher to the after-school program 🧐 so the kids don't end up with too many different teachers. 🙂)

Donna Taylor5 said:What exactly does a teacher lose if the rest of the class decides to take the religious studies course?

The real culprit is the Department of Education, which dictates how these class sections are structured. As soon as you split them up, you're forced to expand the weekly schedule for everyone—like giving a history teacher two extra periods. And once those hours go up, the payroll follows.

HBT, it’s all just one big conspiracy.🙄.

I don't see how they could stay on the same schedule if the numbers shift. Imagine having three classes where you have 8, 6, and 3 non-religious students, versus having two religious classes and one large group of 17 non-religious students.
In that first scenario, you're looking at three classes, which means six hours of religious ed in the first grade.
But in the second scenario, you only have two classes, so that's down to four hours in the first grade.

If they keep reducing the number of religious education sections like this with every generation, you eventually end up with a 16-hour workload, which basically means you don't even need a full-time teacher anymore.🥳

She’s got one hour once a week at the end of the day. Since she’s in after-school care, it doesn't technically impact her core schedule, though we’re actually thinking about asking Grandma to pick her up that day so she can spend some quality time with them instead.
Once a week falls right in the middle of the school schedule.
There are only three kids in the group, and they’ll be working directly with the teacher. What they actually get up to really depends on how quickly she gets to know them—once she picks up on their specific interests and what they're good at, she can tailor things. I actually think that's a great approach! She already gave me a long list of all the different activities they could dive into.👍

I haven't heard much from the other parents, since most of them have older kids and their little ones were with a different instructor. Plus, most of those families are focused on the religious education programs.
The only other thing I found out was that sessions used to take place during the first period.

Matthew Young35 said:I’m not trying to start a fight here, I’m genuinely curious about one thing: how do kids actually process it when they spend two hours listening to a teacher explain that God created humanity—you know, the whole story of Adam and Eve—only to sit through an evolution lesson immediately after?

It’s not meant to be provocative, just an observation:
Why is there so much overlap between religious studies and science class in elementary school? They’re teaching things like Bozic and Easter in both, so why have the double curriculum?
On top of that, even the religious classes end up covering "secular" topics just because they have to stretch the syllabus out over eight years 🙄, so you end up learning about family dynamics in both subjects, just from different angles. 🤣

silentraven6 said:NASA mentioned today: "That's part of my scheduled hours."

I really need to pull her aside and ask how that actually works. And yeah, she made it pretty clear that things will stay this way again this year, because they do a great job and actually enjoy the extra work—plus, she noted it's an opportunity reserved specifically for students who don't take religious studies. Apparently, the whole setup is going to change next year.

I'm dying to know how they'll pull that off.

It's because both the remedial and advanced sessions are factored into the hourly requirements. That's the deal.
In theory, she shouldn't be holding them during religious education hour. From what I was told, some teachers never offer extra help because their students are already struggling just to keep up with the standard curriculum.
On the flip side, some never offer advanced sessions because all their kids are absolute geniuses.
Whether it's remedial or advanced, these sessions have to be organized if even one student needs them.

The way they've timed it with religious ed seems pretty convenient. It sounds like she's judged that the kids attending religious ed don't really need the extra math support.

I'm pretty eager to see how everything plays out at our school; we have our parent-teacher meeting tomorrow.

Michelle Nelson4 said:In my experience here in the States, we aren't looking at a tiny 5% of first graders opting out of religious education; it’s closer to 30%. It’s actually quite significant when you think about it. If you look at four different first-grade classes, you could easily consolidate them into one single group where nobody attends those lessons. But, of course, that would leave some students without two hours of scheduled class time... and we all know whose interests really take priority when it comes to our school system. So, instead of making any real changes, they just let everyone have a two-hour gap in their schedule twice a week.

True, but do you know how they actually justify keeping those schedules full? (It's similar to what you mentioned regarding variables, even when dealing with things like dual language programs or residency status):
a) To prevent any kind of discrimination against the kids. They argue it's easier to prevent teasing if everyone stays together rather than having one classroom feel "different." (Personally, I think it works the other way around, but hey, who am I to say?)
b) Which teacher is going to want the "non-religious" class? Most would prefer a standard schedule without those awkward gaps in the day.
c) Parents often request a specific teacher—maybe someone their child liked back in preschool—so the administration tries to accommodate that. Though from what I've seen, most parents don't have a preference unless they already know the teacher.
d) What happens if a student changes their mind in second grade and wants to join the religious studies class? Or if they decide they don't want to attend anymore? How does the teacher handle that shift?

There are all these different "justifications," but honestly, the only real solution is to offer these programs outside of the regular school hours.

On a side note, regarding how the actual curriculum is taught, I think a huge part of it (aside from the syllabus itself) depends on the instructor's personality and teaching style.
I'm sure there are some wonderful teachers out there. And I'm sure there are some terrible ones too.
Just like any other subject in the American school system.

shadowcrane91 said:I don't know what the deal is with my posts, other than the fact that you clearly hate my opinion.
Foreign languages, drama, and other extracurriculars are also offered at school (at least in mine—my kids start tomorrow)—so you don't actually *have* to drive them anywhere (unless your specific school doesn't offer that stuff)....

The real issue here isn't religious ed itself; it's the total lack of organization within the school system.

But nope... people love blaming the religious classes....

Personally, I’m actually glad it’s offered at school....

I don't know any school where a first grader can take two different foreign languages simultaneously (without paying extra for them during after-school care?)

In most schools, the primary language is English, so if you want your child to learn German or French, you have to drive them to a different school.
And we're talking about a major city like Chicago here.
In some small rural towns, you get one language and that's it.
And then there's religious ed.

Learning a foreign language is just a wish of mine—wanting my kid to pick it up while they're still young and soak it up easily—just like your wish is for them to get some spiritual guidance. Even without an extra language or religious studies, kids will still get a basic education. So why can you fulfill your wish for free at school, but I can't?
Why do I have to pay for that second language, but you don't have to pay for religious ed?
Why do I have to spend time that I'd rather spend with my child just driving her to activities, while she was supposed to be "free" at school, only to be watched by a secretary, a specialist, or heaven knows who else?
Why do you get that privilege and I don't?
Do you pay more in taxes, or do you owe the US government something more than I do to have that priority?

You talk about how something needs to be organized for the kids not taking religious ed during those hours.
Who is going to run that, and who is going to pay for it?
An outside language school (which, let's face it, parents pay a lot for to cover after-school programs) isn't allowed to hold classes during religious ed for various reasons set by the Department of Education, and also so that the kids who *do* need religious ed can participate equally.
It's the same deal with extra help or advanced classes in subjects like math, which teachers should ideally provide to everyone who needs it; if they're running an advanced class, any student wanting to learn more should be able to attend. If they're running remedial sessions, it shouldn't happen that a kid struggling with math misses out because it overlaps with religious ed.
I'm personally not okay with teachers getting paid by parents while they're essentially "babysitting" the kids in religious ed. And that's what happens. I don't want my kid listening to their classmates' grades, behavior reports, or whatever else.

I hate to say it, but I don't see a single argument for the benefit of having religious ed in public schools, aside from a massive headache for organization and funding.
Actually, the only "benefit" I see is convenience for parents and creating extra jobs.

And that's where all your practical faith falls apart.
🤷