Posts by brightpuma

loneraven25 said:...just like wiredangler5 says about how slippery the ground is over there...
...the real question we have to face is this: why on earth would the term "Canadian" be considered offensive while "Canadian" isn't,
or is it simply that some people feel a sense of shame when they admit to being Canadian?

By that same logic, why wouldn't certain slurs be just as bad as others? Why the double standard? 🤷

Is it just about people being too embarrassed to own who they are? ☕

Peter Doyle2 said:So, my takeaway is that we should probably avoid drifting off-topic with all those other issues😬
The American education system needs a total overhaul—and I don't just mean changing the reading list.

Maybe our grandkids will actually see that happen🤔

Check it out. There’s a whole debate going on over in the other thread about religion classes... 😬

brisktiger56 said:To me, the real issue is how disconnected all these subjects are from one another... I mean, you could easily bridge music with math, history with literature, or PE with physics, chemistry, biology... everything could be part of one cohesive whole if approached correctly.

If that were the case, a student wouldn't have to wonder why Kafka imagined a man turning into an insect or being swallowed by some bureaucratic machine... Everything would make sense if you viewed it through a wider lens. Back when I was in school, nothing ever connected—history and art history were treated as two completely separate worlds. It was almost impossible to see the link between them, even though they both dealt with the same eras, rulers, and artists... It’s a pretty clear sign that the curriculum wasn't really "stitched together" properly. 😉

The American education system could definitely use a serious shake-up 😛 which might actually make the required reading list feel more logical and tolerable (even if it isn't exactly fun on its own)...

Ugh, don't even get me started... 🙄

What about math and physics? You need math skills for physics way before you've actually covered them. You end up with physics teachers explaining stuff you aren't supposed to learn in math class for months, just so you can actually solve the problem.

Jessica Kelly4 said:Oh yeah, because we definitely need to be making fun of Americans. 🙄

I was just talking about picking out items and stuff like that.

brighteagle86 said:you really took me too seriously
of course I don't think we should scrap 90% of the math curriculum
but personally, my high school workload felt excessive—mostly because math isn't exactly my forte, nor is it my passion
then again, maybe I would have actually developed an affinity for math if I'd had an incredible professor with enough patience to handle someone as mathematically challenged as I am 😁

by the way, is the American school system really that terrible?
how do they handle required reading? I assume they mostly stick to American authors. 😬

jebiga, you went to a prep school. What did you expect? 🤷 Those places are basically training grounds for engineers, so they push advanced math hard... 😉

The reading list isn't even the main issue...

rowdypanther12 said:Quincy:

brightpuma Asks: What kind of math is actually useless to most people, unlike something like The Cursed Courtyard or John Seagull's Spring? 🤷

Calculus integrals? I'm still trying to wrap my head around them myself. 😁

Look, if anyone actually bothered learning calculus, they probably ended up in a class with people who actually needed it... 🤷 😁

brighteagle86 said:Personally, I only need addition, subtraction, and multiplication😬

Let everyone else—and the calculators—worry about the rest.

Great... 🙄

So, what we really need is to split classrooms into two groups: those who just want to pass the basics taught in elementary school, and those who actually have an appetite for learning. That's basically how the American education system was built, right?

Besides, I never said we should ban books entirely—just swap them out. The current reading list is clearly outdated. That’s why I suggested tossing about half of them off the list...

brighteagle86 said:I find it hard to believe anyone could dislike *The Metamorphosis*.

It’s an absolute masterpiece! 😕 🤷

I recall that story being the standout in my high school English class—right up there with everything by Edgar Allan Poe 😁

Back then, we were encouraged to share our actual takes on books. Our teacher wanted our perspectives, though you still had to back them up with the facts.

But look—if people are suddenly demanding certain books be banned, then I’d just as easily demand they scrap half the math curriculum, if not more...
why is it that nobody ever critiques math with the same fervor they use for literature 🤷?

But what part of math is actually useless to the average person, unlike something like The Cursed Courtyard or John Seagull's Spring?🤷

Peter Doyle2 said:The keyword here is child. Honestly, back when I was 17 or 18, things like bureaucracy, politics, or even the harsh realities of the world we live in weren't even on my radar—it just wasn't something I had to worry about. If I were to face that entire process today, the experience would be completely different. Guaranteed. As it stands, though, it just left me with nothing but trauma and... 😕 Right over our heads.

Look, that’s not really about the assigned reading list. I know plenty of people who skipped their required school books entirely—just copied the summaries—but they spend all their free time devouring other novels because they actually find literature interesting. I don't get the impression that they lack eloquence or general cultural knowledge just because of that. Skipping one specific book for class is one thing—it's a completely different story if you don't read anything at all. 😉

I have no idea how this happened, but I never actually had to read *The Little Prince*—not in elementary school, not in middle school, not even once. 🤷 I just started my studies at teacher's college, so I guess I can't really give you an answer to that question yet. 🤷

I thought the transformation was amazing too 😁 I’ve mentioned this before—it was smooth and easy to grasp. The process, however? Not so much. That part was pure torture. As for that castle nonsense, we didn't even bother reading 😳

Maybe. On the other hand, if I understood that book better now, I wouldn't bother quoting it because I simply don't have the time—nor would I be able to. But, at least now, I get what the author meant. Which also answers this:

That’s true, but look, it isn't about the required reading list. I know people who never read the assigned books—they just copied the summaries—but they read other stuff that actually interests them. They don't strike me as ineloquent or uncultured. There's a big difference between skipping a school assignment and not reading books at all. 😉

Some books you just don't "get" until you're older, and then you're glad you read them. 😉 You realize some things never change. And how much we lag behind other cultures in terms of certain worldviews.

I don't know how it happened, but I never had The Little Prince for school reading, not in middle school or high school. 🤷 I didn't pick it up until college (teacher's college), so I can't really give you an answer 🤷

Man, I had it in both schools. 😬 That's why I asked. Because the whole experience of that book is completely different when you're reading it in grade school versus high school.

Yeah, the transformation was a mess for me too. 😁 I already wrote that. The plot was simple and easy to follow. The process wasn't. The process was pure torture. We didn't even read the castle part, 😳

Neither did we. I read it solely out of my own love for Kafka... 😬

Linda Price5 said:I sincerely hope that some unfortunate high schooler gets a firsthand taste of the joys of American bureaucracy before they are forced to crack open the legal code. 😁

I'm not entirely certain, but I suspect that reading the White Clown would have been required summer reading for me.

Aside from concluding that required reading lists are absolute garbage, I’ve also come to the realization that American authors aren't worth the paper they're printed on. That isn't to say I didn't enjoy the white clown—he was actually quite good—but he was clearly nothing more than a fluke.

It’s coming for everyone sooner or later, whether they read it or not... 😁

I'm not positive, but I think I had White Clown on my required reading list.

Probably depends on the teacher. Not for me. 🤷

(Oh, and besides realizing that required reading is garbage, I also decided American authors aren't worth much. Not because of White Clown—I actually liked that one. But it was an outlier.)

That's why I mentioned him. There are still a few authors out there worth reading, even if they're overlooked.

Peter Doyle2 said:Exactly. The issue with current required reading lists is that most of them are just incredibly dense and boring, yet they absolutely have to be finished. Otherwise, there are consequences.
Sure, saying "I didn't get past page 50 because I couldn't make sense of any of it" isn't really an option, since kids would start using that excuse for every single book pretty quickly 🤣
That’s actually why we need variety in school reading lists. It would break up the monotony of those heavy, unreadable books (especially in high school 🙄 where almost nothing makes sense because of all the archaic language and old dialects). If they threw in something like Stasio, one of the Kishons, or even some of that increasingly popular fantasy, you'd see how many students would actually enjoy reading. It would make everything easier, and reading wouldn't feel like such a chore or a total turn-off for everyone.

I agree we should mix things up, but then you realize the teaching methods need to change too. Usually, these books are assigned right when they're covering that specific era in literature.
And honestly, Kishon and Kafka aren't even in the same ballpark. Sure, they scatter them here and there (like E. A. Poe), but it's not enough.
Not to mention, I don't get why some books make the cut while others don't. What's wrong with White Clown? 🤷 Or Sea Under the North Star? They're all solid reads.
Then there's Lovecraft, who basically kicked off the last century. They could easily have tucked him in somewhere between Kafka and Krleza. 🤷

Peter Doyle2 said:Not really.
No one in my house reads. Honestly, almost nobody in my circle does, aside from a few girlfriends. Still, I managed to develop a genuine love for reading on my own—well, except for a pretty dark period during high school and right after.
But that’s a whole other long story, I guess. This thread is supposed to be about required school reading lists.
How am I supposed to tell my kid one day, "Honey, please read *The Process*, it's an incredibly esteemed and important book," when it left me (and clearly others here too) with deep-seated trauma? 🤷 The only thing I could probably say is, "Ugh, just deal with it, I had to, too," and then encourage them to go find some therapy through a much more normal novel. 🤣

I'm not pretending these aren't valuable, great works of literature. I said that right at the start of this discussion. I don't think they should be kicked out of schools or textbooks—good grief.
But they shouldn't be the foundation of a mandatory reading list. They aren't engaging, and frankly, they aren't suited for teenagers at all. Almost any of them could be studied in class just as effectively—if not more so—than many of the other books currently stuck in the American curriculum.

So, we're back to the original question: what is the actual point of required school reading? Or better yet, given that physical books are dying and reading culture is fading, what *should* the purpose be today? Isn't it more important to actually get kids interested in reading—to spark that curiosity—rather than systematically forcing them through "great" works that are just plain repulsive? 🤷

Honestly, I truly believe that if I hadn't been forced to tackle so many of these high school staples until I was older and more mature, I wouldn't have grown to hate them so permanently.

It would be really interesting to see the reading lists used in other countries, though.

edit: Looking at Kate Cox2's list, it seems like almost nothing has changed since I graduated. And *Combray* is right there at the beginning, just to kill you off the moment the school year starts. 🤣 Franz Kafka is hot on its heels. 🙄

To be honest, a kid could learn a lot from The Trial and the Castle. They could draw parallels to how bureaucracy works today. It's a book worth reading. 👍

So we're back to the original question: what is the point of school reading lists? Or better yet, what *should* the purpose be today, now that books are dying and reading culture is fading? Shouldn't the priority be getting kids interested in reading, fostering a love for books, rather than systematically shoving "the classics" down their throats when they find them totally repulsive?

Oh, come on. The curriculum exists to build a general sense of culture. I know plenty of people who brag about reading maybe two assigned books, while they just copied the summaries for everything else—you can actually tell when someone is missing that foundation.
Another thing: there's this push here to make us read certain American authors in their entirety. Look, if I haven't read the whole Iliad or all of Dante's Hell, why should I have to read all of Judith? 🤷

Honestly, I truly believe a much smaller percentage of high school books would have permanently disgusted me if I'd picked them up later, once I was a bit more mature.

It depends. Take a cliché example. What do you think about The Little Prince? You likely encountered it in elementary school and then again (when you were older) in high school.

Edit: Looking at the extreme list, it confirms almost nothing has changed since I graduated. And Combray is right at the beginning, just to kill you off at the very start of the school year. 🤣 Kafka is right on its heels.

Combray feels like a punishment, sure, but I don't get why everyone is attacking Kafka so hard? I mean, The Trial and the Castle might be a bit tedious, but they're good books. And Metamorphosis is honestly one of the better ones in high school generally. Very deep, lots to think about. You have to remember these are meant for seniors—it's right around the time they can actually grasp them.

Daniel Gomez10 said:I'm signing onto this whole post.
Obviously, we aren't going to love everything on the syllabus. Some books we'll slog through, some will be boring and pointless so we force ourselves to finish them, and others will be so dense or confusing that we won't even make it to the end.
The most important thing is having a smart, reasonable English teacher who lets students speak their minds and actually debate things during class.
I had that kind of teacher, and since a lot of my friends actually did the reading, literature class was honestly the highlight of my day.
By the way, I also had to struggle through both *Werther* and *Anna Karenina*. 😉

I actually read *Faust*; I had to write a paper on it once. 😳
I'll admit, it was a tough read.

I absolutely loved *Anna Karenina*. I actually wrote a report on it too. Looking back, I guess I always did have a thing for the thickest books... 🤣
Madame Bovary is such a great read. And don't forget Zola, either!
Plus, things didn't exactly fall apart completely afterward 🙂

I don't know, it was just miserable for me. 🙂 I hit page 50 and just quit. When people actually explained the plot to me, it sounded interesting enough. 🙄

Anna Karenina is amazing. Had to write a paper on that one too. Looking back, I guess I always did have a thing for those massive doorstops...
Madame Bovary is great. And don't forget Zola.
And things didn't all go downhill right after that. 🙂

To be honest, I can't recall much from later on, but those were the last books that really grabbed me. Kafka, Anna Karenina, Madame Bovary...

Just look at this reading list they put together for fourth grade. Half of it could easily be cut. 🤷 Fragrance, Gold, and Incense? Come on... 🙄 I felt like that book was literally sucking the life out of me...

Jeffrey Kelly said:Perhaps it comes down to older professors in these scenarios. I experienced something similar—an older instructor with that exact style of grading. Mind you, I only ever received less than an A once in a language class (I didn't finish reading F. Latinović; I found the whole Ernest Hemingway opus nauseating), but once, I wrote a brilliant critique of a Paulo Coelho book, pulling certain lines together to weave an entire narrative... it’s hard to explain, mostly influenced by the philosophy we were studying at the time. Generally, my writing was top-tier; I could write enough material for several people, and usually, only those who read what I wrote would get an A, while everyone else failed... and imagine this: since the professor was a devout Catholic and very spiritually driven in that sense, she wrote a comment on my assignment longer than the essay itself... first saying how good it was, how imaginative, blah blah blah, BUT then she goes off on Coelho, calling him a cult leader and this and that...?! I was stunned... everyone watched my paper turn red with her corrections, yet she still gave me an A...

Back then, one student wrote a brilliant essay about an imaginary life where he became a criminal and ended up in prison, only to reappear from jail and so on... the kid was a legend, and that's exactly how he wrote it... such a creative idea, and a hilarious text; we were dying of laughter. The teacher praised him for being funny, but gave him a D—otherwise, she would have given him an F...?! We were all baffled, and she just claimed it was because he wrote about becoming a criminal and such... 😂🙂🙂

If I were the teacher, I wouldn't have given him a passing grade; I would have given him a trillion!
Our younger generations certainly view things through a different lens...

Honestly, I have no clue. By my junior year of high school, I’d practically read everything on the syllabus. I only managed an A on one—Dante's Inferno. Everything else was a struggle just to pull a B.
Man, I had a teacher just like that. You could basically ace American Lit only if you were doing extra stuff outside of class.

Look, a C was the default if you actually showed up. To get a B, you had to put in some effort. But for an A? You had to bleed for it. 🙄

@nosorog:

In my experience, you could talk about whatever you wanted regarding the book, but your grade depended entirely on how close you stuck to what the teacher laid out. And again, did you do extra work for the department or not? If you didn't, a B was your ceiling.

Peter Doyle2 said:Whoops😁 where's Kafka? 🤣
Some parts still feel a bit off to me, but if this is actually the current reading list, I see some improvements. 🙏
Though, it feels suspiciously short for high school seniors. No Cyclops? No way, I don't think they'd ever cut that. And Anna Karenina?

I honestly doubt this is the official list approved by the Department of Education.

Feels that way to me too. There's no Kafka, no Dante, no Anna Karenina—just a bunch of Hemingway. Someone really messed this up.

Peter Doyle2 said:Does anyone know where I can find a current list of required reading? I'm mostly looking for high school level stuff. I'm curious if there's been any changes lately—it seems like everyone still talks about the exact same books, so maybe we're all just equally traumatized by them 🤣

Maybe this?

Looking at this list, it seems like some things have shifted since I was in school. We actually moved a few books from junior year to senior year.

"Quote:"

Peter Doyle2 said:Even Harry Potter couldn't save me😢
Right after high school, during my freshman year of college—just as the whole Harry Potter craze was actually kicking off—a friend gave me the first book. I read it, I guess, but barely. It just wasn't interesting to me at all; I felt zero urge to keep going. 😢That required reading list absolutely killed me—well, it killed any interest I had in reading, anyway.

I’m not saying everything should be based on some easy, trendy bestseller. But the sheer volume of books assigned for high school reading lists is just too much—they're often incomprehensible or just plain boring. Consequently, 99% of kids just grind through them to get the grade. It seems pretty pointless to me.
Maybe it would help if professors—like someone else mentioned earlier—provided more guidance or context before students even dive in. Instead of forcing them to tackle an entire book, they could focus on the most compelling, essential chapters.
General literacy levels would stay intact😉 and kids wouldn't feel so frustrated. If a student actually enjoys one specific excerpt, they might actually decide to finish the whole thing. As it stands now, they give up right at the start and just rely on SparkNotes or online summaries.

edit: And why on earth is HP so hated by certain church groups? 😲 I mean, it's fantasy! Wait, does that mean George R.R. Martin or Tolkien are on their blacklist too?

Man, I’ve always been a fan of quotations, so finishing a required reading book was usually a breeze for me. But lately? For the last two years of high school, I’ve basically dodged my assignments whenever I could get away with it. On the flip side, I actually sat down and read *The Great Gatsby* when everyone else in class skipped it... only to get a C for my trouble. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? 🤦

"brightpuma" said:

Look, I’m not saying everything should be based on some trendy, easy-to-read bestseller. But honestly? The sheer volume of books assigned for high school reading lists is just overkill. They're often dense, confusing, and frankly, boring. Most kids are just checking boxes and getting through them to get it over with. It feels totally pointless. It would definitely help if professors actually gave us some guidance before we dive into a book. Like someone already mentioned, why not just provide some directions? Instead of forcing us through every single page of an entire novel, why not just focus on the most interesting, essential parts? The general culture? It hasn't gone anywhere. Still right here. 😉 Kids aren't even frustrated. Honestly? If someone actually enjoys a single excerpt, maybe they'll end up finishing the whole book. But most people just give up before they even start, opting for quick internet summaries or cheat sheets instead.

Maybe we should break it down. Like the Iliad or Dante's Inferno, you just can't tackle some of these books all at once. It’s impossible to read them in their entirety. Wouldn't it be better to trim down those massive doorstoppers and make room for some actually interesting stuff?

"Quotation:"

Seriously, why on earth does HP get so much hate from churches? 😲 So it's just Fantasy then? Wait, does that mean guys like George R.R. Martin or Tolkien are on the blacklist too?

Fantasy, especially when you throw in the crowns and stuff like that... it just doesn't really sit right with the folks in those priest robes.

"Quotation:"

rowdypanther12 said:I can't quite agree with that; I honestly think everyone should pick up at least one or two books from every literary era, especially the major ones.
then, if you really want to boost your grade—say, if your GPA isn't exactly where you want it—you could dive into something like *The Scarlet Letter*.
Personally, I used to get so frustrated with Goethe and his cryptic way of writing. It drove me crazy. I felt like I had to force my way through *The Sorrows of Young Werther* just to get past every other page.
So, I powered through it, hated every second of it while reading 😁 and still managed to pull an A.
It’s the same deal with *Anna Karenina*. If you have a decent professor and some books that just rub you the wrong way, you'll end up reading them anyway, just so you can spend class time arguing about why the characters were so annoying or why the book is overrated.

That sounds fine. Personally? I only walked away with a C for reading something like that. 🙄

Quotation:

Honestly, Goethe’s coded way of writing used to drive me crazy. Just hated it. I wanted to bash Werther on almost every other page. pa I just powered through it, spat it out during my hourly breaks 😁 and ended up with an A.

Werther is easy. Faust makes you want to lose your mind. Not sure if you've tackled that one yet, but if you have, hats off to you. 🙏

Quotation:

It was the exact same deal with Anna Karenina. If you have a decent professor and books that get under your skin, you'll read them—then spend your lunch break arguing about why the characters were annoying or why the book is overrated.

Well, Anna Karenina was actually tolerable. Especially considering what came after. The only thing worth reading back then was the Naturalism era (Madame Bovary), but after that, everything just went downhill.

Honestly, I’m not sure how much of this applies to remakes of foreign films versus remakes in general. A lot of the ones being made lately are just straight-up bad... 🤷

I don't know, most of my school reading lists never really bothered me, even back in high school. There were only two books I never actually finished: Goethe's Faust and Proust's Combray. Everything else was manageable. With those two, though? I couldn't get past page twenty. I just couldn't do it.

The truth is, we need to rethink how reading lists are put together and how they flow. It feels like way too much time gets spent on ancient classics, and we never even make it to modern stuff. Seems pretty silly to me, especially since there's so much great modern literature out there.

Unlike you, me, Nicholas King, and quite a few others whose posts actually make sense? 🤷

Look, we all have our ups and downs on this forum. Good days, bad days... I personally think—even if I don't agree with the call on the sea bass—that this is just an example of inconsistent moderation. It happens, unfortunately.
For instance, I’m still waiting to hear: when is someone considered a troll acting dumb, versus when are they just genuinely uninformed? Where do you draw the line? How is that limit even determined? Because I see people circling the drain on so many topics, and the debate just keeps hitting the same wall because some people simply can't be reasoned with, no matter how much effort goes into an argued discussion.

Look, I was actually following the thread started by this post of yours which just backs up everything I’ve been saying in what you quoted above...
Plus, your whole mindset is pretty obvious in this post.. What's even weirder is that both are on a topic about Canada..
No, they definitely weren't trying to be provocative... ☕