338 posts shown.
Joseph Murphy10 said:Bravo... you've got a good memory. That's pretty much how it goes in the Platonic and Aristotelian defenses. We're finally on the same page.
But now, since we've used everyone else here to tear Xanthippe apart, I need you to grasp this:
If Socrates had accepted even the tiniest compromise offered to him, he would have betrayed everything he stood for. He would have been admitting guilt where none existed, because the whole charge was just a construct made by people who—much like Xanthippe—might be smart and practical, but are ultimately just average folks caught up in their own little webs of interest. Those interests pull them away from the pure, uncompromising intellectual clarity of Socratic thought. Protecting his physical self would have meant killing his essential self. That's why there was no middle ground for him.
We see a similar refusal to compromise in more recent American history. Think about someone like Vlad Gotovac—after the fall of the Karađorđević regime, he was sentenced to four years in a hard-labor prison in a place like Joliet. The charges and the conviction were nothing more than a staged performance. At one point, he was offered an out: just ask for a pardon. Vlad refused because asking for mercy would mean accepting the lie of his guilt. He chose to serve the full term instead. A lot of practical, even "smart," people couldn't wrap their heads around that. Even a giant of literature like Krleža wouldn't have understood—or rather, wouldn't have accepted it. But I'm certain Socrates would have gotten it. Sometimes the idea is bigger than the body, the food, or the clothes. That's wisdom, specifically in a discussion about what wisdom actually is.
We didn't "expose" anything. Everything being said about Xanthippe here is just nonsense—cheap gossip. There’s so much actual substance in a Socratic biography that Xanthippe barely even registers, yet this thread makes it sound like she was some central figure in his life. It’s the same old misogynistic posturing we see on this sub constantly. And to make matters worse, now the whole discussion on wisdom is being trashed by people obsessing over Intelligence Quotients. 🤦
Joseph Murphy10 said:Britannica says:
Xanthippe (Greek Ξανϑίππη, Xanthippe), wife of Socrates. According to ancient tradition, she was headstrong and quarrelsome. Her name became synonymous with an evil and argumentative wife; figuratively, a shrew, a nag, or a harpy.
But look, listen, pay attention... I think her issue was just being a regular housewife who had to deal with the actual day-to-day grind of running a household. If Socrates had been out chopping wood or doing whatever practical, decent jobs normal people did back then, she probably wouldn't have been "evil" or jealous—but then again, Socrates wouldn't be the historical figure we know.
(Then she'd just be dealing with different demons. You know, the kind where she's complaining: "Look at Socrates' neighbor Melet, he just added a second floor to his house, and his wife Ligeia bought a brand new designer outfit, while look at us, living like total paupers. Ugh, I should've married Nicomachus, he's a butcher, at least I'd have plenty of poultry to work with. And I haven't even been to the grocery store lately, or since I can remember, blah blah..." just that whole damn female rhetoric..
What "good reason" are you talking about, and what exactly was he supposed to concede? Give me a practical example...
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy using Reddit
Look, they gave him an out—letting him propose his own fine. His friends were ready to bankroll whatever amount they slapped on him, too. But instead of taking the deal, he doubled down just to spite them. He suggested a measly sum—something like twenty cents today—just to mock the whole process. Then, while he was sitting in a cell waiting for his sentence, he had a golden opportunity to bolt. Since the tradition dictated they couldn't carry out the execution until Theseus returned his ship from Crete, the door was basically left wide open for him to escape. He chose not to.
To get back to the motive: the indictment basically boiled down to this—Socrates was guilty because he didn't believe in the state's gods and was supposedly introducing new, demonic entities, all while corrupting the youth. That Socratic "daemon" is really just what we’d call a conscience today. Socrates was pushing his fellow citizens—especially the kids—to actually think for themselves, to judge right from wrong, and to question even the most basic social norms. To a society built on rigid tradition, that kind of thinking is radioactive. It introduced a principle they couldn't tolerate. In the end, Socrates was right, but the Athenians were also right in their own way. You had two fundamental principles crashing into each other head-on.
Harold Doyle3 said:It’s likely due to that recent dark chapter in German history.
Not even then. Maybe even a thousand years ago. In the West, calling someone a "sage" has been nothing more than a joke or a sarcastic jab for ages. Honestly, most people would probably take offense if you actually called them wise.
Joseph Murphy10 said:The Greeks put Socrates on trial, and honestly? The guy was such a genius that he basically saw the death penalty as a triple win. First, he finally got away from those shallow, cheap, shady, and straight-up moronic crowds. Second, he finally escaped his loudmouthed, angry, and total nightmare of a wife—Xanthippe. And third—the best part—he didn't have to deal with the misery of getting old. Seriously, smartest guy to ever live.
That’s exactly why Spinoza was so sharp—he skipped the marriage and dodged that whole university grind.
So, smart-ass Abelard wanted to teach at some big-shot university—you know, chase that prestige and glory—and he goes and marries Heloise. Now look at him. He totally blew it and lost his junk in the process.
Just something to think about.
First off, Xanthippe wasn't some "wicked" woman—not by a long shot. Second, the Greeks weren't just some group of shallow, cheap, shady idiots. They actually had legitimate reasons to convict him. Honestly, they probably would have let him walk if he hadn't spent half his time mocking them.
The sayings of the Seven Sages.
Cleobulus of Miletus, son of Eua, says:
Here’s the breakdown—twenty rules for actually living a life that doesn't suck: 1. Moderation is everything. Don't overdo it. 2. Respect your old man. Period. 3. Keep your body and your mind in fighting shape. 4. Listen more than you talk. Most people just hear themselves speak anyway. 5. Better to be a know-it-all than a complete idiot. 6. Watch your mouth. Use kind words. 7. Be a friend to virtue and an enemy to malice. 8. Hate injustice, but stand up for mercy. 9. Give your neighbors the best advice you can muster. 10. Master your impulses—don't let them master you. 11. Never force anything. It never works out. 12. Raise your kids right. It's on you. 13. Pray for some good luck once in a while. 14. Drop the hate. It's a waste of energy. 15. If someone is working against the people, they're your enemy. Simple as that. 16. Don't argue with your wife in front of others, and don't get all mushy either. One makes you look crazy, the other makes you look weak. Pick a lane. 17. Don't discipline the help when they've been drinking; they'll just assume you're drunk too. 18. Marry someone on your own level. If you marry way up, you won't have in-laws—you'll have bosses. 19. Don't laugh at the guy being mocked. You'll just end up on the target list for everyone he's making fun of. 20. When things are great, stay humble. When things hit the fan, don't lose your dignity.
Solon of Athens, son of Exekias, says:
1. Don't overdo it. 2. Don't act like you're sitting on a high bench—if you play judge too hard, the guy in the hot seat is just going to resent you. 3. Avoid chasing cheap thrills that leave you feeling empty later. 4. Guard your integrity—it’s worth way more than any oath you ever take. 5. Seal your words with silence, and use silence when the moment calls for it. 6. Stop lying. Just tell the truth. 7. Stick to things that actually matter. 8. Don't think you're smarter than your folks. 9. Don't rush into friendships—but once you've built them, don't be the one to break them. 10. If you can't learn how to follow, you have no business trying to lead. 11. If you expect everyone else to answer for their mistakes, make sure you're ready to do the same. 12. When giving advice to your fellow citizens, don't tell them what sounds good—tell them what's actually right. 13. Don't get arrogant. 14. Don't run with the wrong crowd. 15. Consult a higher power. 16. Show respect to your friends. 17. If you don't know, keep your mouth shut. 18. If you do know, stay quiet. 19. Be kind to your own people. 20. Use what people can see to prove what they can't.
Cleomenes of Sparta, son of Damagetus, says:
Here’s the playbook—simple enough if you actually have the spine to follow it: 1. Get to know yourself. Truly. 2. When you’re drinking, shut up. Otherwise, you'll start talking nonsense. 3. Don't threaten people who are free—it’s cheap and it isn't right. 4. Stop gossiping about your neighbors. Trust me, you won't like what you hear coming back your way. 5. Show up to a friend's party at a reasonable hour, but show up to their crisis immediately. 6. Keep weddings low-key. No need for the massive, flashy circus. 7. Treat the Dead with respect. 8. Respect your elders. 9. Avoid anyone who can't mind their own business. 10. Losing is better than winning dirty. A loss hurts once; a shameful win haunts you for life. 11. Don't kick someone when they're already down. 12. If you’ve got power, stay calm. It commands respect—fear is just a shortcut for cowards. 13. Run your own household properly. 14. Don't let your mouth run faster than your brain. 15. Master your impulses. 16. Stop chasing the impossible. 17. Don't rush blindly ahead. 18. Stop gesturing wildly—it makes you look unhinged. 19. Follow the law. 20. If you're wronged, make peace. If you're insulted, stand your ground.
Thales of Miletus, son of Examius, said:
1. Don't act as a guarantor—you're just setting yourself up for a wreck. 2. Remember the friends who are standing by you and the ones who aren't. 3. Stop worrying about your outward image; focus on being a leader worth following instead. 4. Don't build wealth through shady means. 5. Make sure your words don't turn those loyal to you against you. 6. Don't hesitate when it comes to looking after your parents. 7. If it’s worthless, don't take it from your father. 8. Treat your parents right, and that’s exactly what your kids will do for you when you're old. 9. Knowing who you really are? That's one of the hardest jobs there is. 10. Nothing beats the rush of actually hitting your goals. 11. Laziness is a dead end. 12. Overdoing it always backfires. 13. A lack of discipline is a heavy weight to carry. 14. Learn the right way, then teach it. 15. Even if you strike it rich, don't let yourself get lazy. 16. Keep your family's dirty laundry behind closed doors. 17. It’s better to be envied than pitied. 18. Know when to draw the line. 19. Don't take everyone at their word. 20. If you're going to give orders, make sure you can actually follow them yourself.
Pitacus of Miletus, son of Iros, said:
Here’s some unsolicited wisdom—take it or leave it: 1. Recognize a lucky break when it hits you. Don't ignore it. 2. Keep your mouth shut about your plans. If you brag and then fail? You're just an easy target for everyone to laugh at. 3. Surround yourself with people who actually matter. 4. Don't hold others to standards you won't meet yourself. It’s hypocritical. 5. Don't tolerate laziness. That kind of rot eventually brings down everything around it. 6. Return what you borrowed. Simple as that. 7. Learn to swallow the small annoyances people throw your way. Don't make a mountain out of a molehill. 8. Don't trash talk a friend or play nice with an enemy. Both are signs of someone who lacks basic judgment. 9. Nobody can predict the future—nobody. But if you look at how things played out in the past, you might actually stand a chance at seeing what's coming. 10. The ground beneath your feet stays put, but the ocean? You can't trust it for a second. 11. Greed is a bottomless pit. It never stops wanting more. 12. Actually own your stuff. Don't live life on credit or through someone else's hands. 13. Focus on the real essentials: compassion, raising kids right, wisdom, facts, trust, experience, skill, friendship, integrity, precision, keeping a home, and knowing your craft. Everything else is just noise.
f) Bijant of Byzantium, son of Teuta, said:
1. Most people are crooked. 2. He says you need to look in the mirror: if you look good, do good things; if you look ugly, let your integrity fix your natural flaws. 3. Approach your work slowly—but once you start, go all in. 4. Avoid mindless chatter so you don't screw up, because regret follows fast. 5. Don't be stupid or malicious. 6. Don't act without thinking. 7. Value common sense. 8. Acknowledge the existence of the gods. 9. Reflect on what you've actually done. 10. Be a careful listener. 11. Speak only when it makes sense. 12. If you're broke, don't envy the rich—there's nothing in it for you. 13. Don't praise a worthless man just because he has money. 14. Win people over through persuasion, not force. 15. When you nail a job, give the credit to the gods, not yourself. 16. Aim for success in youth, and wisdom in old age. 17. Give lasting recognition to hard work, caution to good fortune, nobility of soul to character, moderation to effort, mercy to fear, friendship to wealth, persuasion to speech, composure to silence, justice to reason, courage to boldness, strength to action, and supremacy to fame.
g) Pericles of Corinth, son of Kypselos, said:
1. Look out for everyone. 2. There’s beauty in stillness. 3. Recklessness is dangerous. 4. Profiting through shame is a loss. 5. * an indictment of nature. 6. Democracy beats tyranny every time. 7. Possessions die, but virtue is immortal. 8. When you're winning, stay level-headed; when you're losing, stay sensible. 9. It's better to die powerful than to live in want. 10. Prepare yourself to be worthy of being a parent. 11. While you're alive, let people praise you; once you're gone, let them think you were blessed. 12. Stick by your friends whether times are good or bad. 13. Whatever you've personally agreed to—keep it; breaking your own word is dangerous. 14. Don't spread private conversations. 15. Criticize in a way that suggests you intend to become a friend immediately. 16. Follow the old laws, but eat fresh food. 17. Don't just punish those who commit errors, but also those who have the capacity to make them. 18. Keep your troubles to yourself so you don't end up feeding your enemies.
Joseph Murphy10 said:If you think it’s weird, then you’re probably on the right track to becoming wise yourself.
National sages... what even is that?
From everything I've picked up—connecting the dots between life experience and book learning—most "sages" were actually just seen as crazy back in their day. Like, dangerously unhinged. They usually only get that "wise" reputation after they're dead.
Even Saint Paul said you basically have to be a fool to be truly wise... or something along those lines.
Edit: found a decent definition of wisdom on Wikipedia.
"Wisdom is a concept denoting deep knowledge, insight, and good judgment. People who pursue wisdom are called philosophers (Greek: philia - love, sophia - wisdom).
Those who seek wisdom make time for spiritual growth, not letting the "demands of practical life swallow them whole."
Based on that definition, I’m pretty much with you—there aren't many actual sages left.
Because...
The modern world is obsessed with a "knowledge economy" hidden behind formal credentials, and honestly, I don't see much wisdom in that.
(Just a side note.)
So, I'm sticking to my guns: you have to be "crazy" (in the eyes of the world) to actually be wise.
Sent from my Galaxy S10 using Reddit
The Greeks had those seven sages—Thales, Solon... I can't recall the rest of the lineup.
Joseph Murphy10 said:What kind of weird claims are
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S10 using Reddit
Seems weird to me too. But honestly—as far as I can tell—no nation around here actually has its own resident sage these days.
mistybison said:I am not searching for wisdom; I am simply looking for a clear definition of the term wisdom.
Let's see if we can distinguish between the two! 🧐
When you truly love something, you ought to understand what it actually is. 🤔 That is how it should work, at least. 🙂
There isn't one universal definition you can just pull off a shelf. Roughly speaking? Wisdom is the virtue of someone who's finally figured out how the world works—and actually lives by those realizations.
mistybison said:How would you define being a sage?
It’s pretty simple—it’s the guy everyone looks up to because he actually knows what he’s talking about.
These days, actual wisdom is a dying breed.
Sam Martinez9 said:Posted from Slack
- Volver
Good morning, everyone.
What’s on your reading list this morning? I’ve been spending some time with Capra lately. As is the case with most readers, I find myself starting from the end. Here is a brief excerpt from the final pages:
* ........ moving from linear systems of resource depletion and the accumulation of products and waste toward cyclical flows of matter and energy; shifting from an obsession with objects and natural wealth toward a focus on services and human resources; transitioning from seeking happiness in material possessions to finding it in human connections. To borrow the words of David Suzuki:
Family, friends, community—these are the primary sources of profound satisfaction and love. We visit family members, maintain ties with our mentors, and share meaningful moments with friends. We undertake difficult challenges to help others, to save the frogs, and to protect the wilderness, and we find purpose in those efforts. Nature and service provide us with spiritual fulfillment. None of these joys deplete the Earth's resources, yet they leave us deeply replenished. They are complex and far closer to true happiness than simple pleasures like a Coca-Cola or a new minivan.*
Charles Taylor - Sources of the Self (The Making of Modern Identity)
Going through this one for the second time—honestly, it hits even harder now than it did the first pass.
Thomas Nelson25 said:That’s basically what civilization is built on.
Philosophers helped make that happen.
Obviously. Philosophy isn't just a byproduct of civilization—it's the foundation. Without it, we wouldn't even have a civilization to speak of.
bluemason3 said:We aren't dealing with hard sciences here. This is more like juggling concepts, fantasies, and projections. Talking about "the truth" feels a bit pointless.
If you're looking for actual science or religious debates, go find another sub.
Truth isn't a scientific metric—it's a philosophical one.
Carol Jackson2 said:Most people end up stuck in jobs that are either mind-numbing from day one or just get boring over time.
That’s why you need to constantly pivot and shift things up on your resume.
Criminals can always find work in the worst sectors; it’s a reality.
Some people actually gravitate toward mining, even though it’s incredibly dangerous.
Men do the laundry at home too.😉
Honestly? It’d be even better if we didn't have criminals at all.
Gerald Jackson48 said:That’s why I keep arguing that while technological progress handles the technical stuff, we also need spiritual growth. And in my opinion, neither of those is a small task. When I talk about spiritual growth, I mean becoming aware of and overcoming those primal psychological impulses humans have dealt with since the beginning of time—and doing it on a collective level. Then again, advancing technology isn't exactly simple either, as seen by things like the ‘calculation problem.’
Technical hurdles are really just spiritual ones in disguise. It’s the spirit that decides which problems are worth solving, how we tackle them, and what the end goal even is. Everything hinges on that. If the spirit is totally subservient to whatever dominant ideology is running the show, then technology becomes nothing more than an extension of that ideology—a tool used to stifle progress rather than expand it. Just look at those neoliberal types on these forums. That’s a broken, cynical mindset—a spirit that’s been completely conditioned by the system, reduced to mere operationalism. In their eyes, that's the only way to "get ahead" in today's world. Of course, they conveniently ignore the fact that this exact mentality is driving civilization straight off a cliff, not to mention the absolute wreckage left behind in nature.
Gerald Jackson48 said:Look, for a system like that to actually work—without a neurosurgeon or Peter feeling bitter, jealous, frustrated, or straight-up furious at each other or the system itself—you need some kind of heavy-duty psychology to keep egos in check. Or you need an external enforcement system, which we all know leads to trouble. It just creates more frustration and anger, which people usually project onto outside forces instead of admitting they might be part of the problem.
Also, I'm not sure why you're brushing off the opportunity cost argument. Every single hour a neurosurgeon spends cleaning a toilet is an hour they could have spent on something much more important. Their stakes are incredibly high; lives are literally in their hands. That time spent scrubbing porcelain could be used to sharpen their medical expertise and surgical skills, which directly lowers the risk of a patient dying on the table. If someone does die, they’ve got a valid reason to point out that maybe it wouldn't have happened if they were studying instead of cleaning toilets. They'll start questioning if doing chores is really a fair way to pay back society for all the training they received.
...Talking about opportunity costs has made me realize my own opportunity costs, and honestly, I'm not sure how well I'm handling them. 🤣
What you're missing is that this entire mindset is basically a byproduct of the social system we live in. You can't have a fair or free society until there's a revolution of the spirit. We can sit here and dream up solutions for this or that problem, but none of it matters if most people haven't realized they aren't just selfish animals driven solely by money and status—even if that's what the capitalist apologists want us to believe.
As for this whole debate about "lost time" because someone was performing a socially necessary task—it's such insignificant time that it's hardly worth the breath. Sure, we can imagine some hypothetical scenario where a person is so obsessed with their work that even a tiny loss of time feels like a tragedy. Fine. I have nothing against those rare, exceptional people being excused from the rest of life. But let's be clear: a desirable society isn't one where everyone is forced to be as "useful" as possible; it's one where everyone is as free as possible. Shortening the workday is a fundamental requirement. In that light, a neurosurgeon should be working *less*, not more. If they're so obsessed with their work that they can't help themselves, they can do it on their own time, for free.
I'm not answering the others. I've said what I need to say.
Alexander Thompson said:So, I guess you’ve never heard of breaking down a massive, complex issue into tiny little pieces to actually deal with it?
If you can't even wrap your head around a super simple problem, how are you planning to solve a huge one? Just by following your "gut feeling" or whatever?
But, okay, let’s zoom out to the societal level for a second. If Peter—who happens to be our guy whose only job is cleaning toilets—is working all day, what are the neurosurgeons doing while the toilets get cleaned?
Just grabbing a Budweiser and watching Star Wars?
Obviously, to someone like Peter, that kind of setup feels perfectly fair.
The whole idea behind rotation is that nobody’s primary role is scrubbing toilets—not even Peter. It means everyone takes a turn doing the dirty work. Just like a neurosurgeon isn't exactly itching to clean up a mess, nobody else wants to either—it's common sense. Any sane surgeon gets that, which is why they’ll just suck it up and do their part when it's their turn.
Alexander Thompson said:So, I guess you’ve never heard of breaking down a massive, complex issue into tiny little pieces to actually deal with it?
If you can't even wrap your head around a super simple problem, how are you planning to solve a huge one? Just by following your "gut feeling" or whatever?
But, okay, let’s zoom out to the societal level for a second. If Peter—who happens to be our guy whose only job is cleaning toilets—is working all day, what are the neurosurgeons doing while the toilets get cleaned?
Just grabbing a Budweiser and watching Star Wars?
Obviously, to someone like Peter, that kind of setup feels perfectly fair.
Ever heard of the law where quantity eventually turns into quality? A systemic societal meltdown isn't the same thing as a personal spat between two people. We aren't here to fix the latter.
Alexander Thompson said:The only thing stupid here was the answer.
Seriously though, how would you even split that fairly? Like, if Joe Biden cleans the toilet one week and you take the next—is he just chilling while you work, or does he end up taking over your shift anyway?
Your question is still pretty mindless—dealing with the fair distribution of grunt work is a societal issue, not something you solve between two people in a room.