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Posts by Nathan Morris3

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A - Austria in European Union · May 24, 2016

Mark Harris66 said:Mail-in ballots get sent over to the polling stations, just like you said. When I asked why they aren't counted right alongside the in-person votes, you suggested it might just be because the poll workers are exhausted from all the counting... But honestly—it could be so easy to just have a separate little crew there specifically to handle those mail-in ones (if they even make up 15% of the total) right as the election wraps up. That way, they'd be finished at the exact same time as the main group counting the local ballots. You'd think an organized country like the US would have figured that out by now—instead, they wait until the local precinct counts are done before even touching the mail-in pile?😲
If that’s actually how it works, I’m pretty shocked by how disorganized things are.

What kind of disorganization? I mean, everything seemed to go according to plan. I didn't really notice any mess-ups. I guess the way Austria treats Sunday and worker burnout is just different than how things work in America—it feels more like a cultural thing. Plus, there were only about two supervisors per station, so who would you even pull in to work through the night? It seems like maybe you're overthinking this, especially since nobody expected things to be this uncertain given that Mail-in ballots haven't been such a deciding factor before. Austrians seem to prefer waiting a day rather than forcing people to work all night, I suppose. Of course, you're allowed to find it shocking. But I'd say you might be stressing over things that don't really matter. The big question is—did everything follow the rules, was there any tampering, or were there any attacks on candidates? I don't really get this obsession with whether results come in at 2:00 AM or 4:30 PM.

A - Austria in European Union · May 24, 2016

Mark Harris66 said:Can you walk me through how the mail-in ballot process actually works?
I’m just totally lost on the whole thing...

It feels so sketchy that those mail-in ballots aren't even tallied until the day after the election. It just seems like such a huge opening for someone to mess with the numbers. Why can't they just count them at the exact same time as the people showing up at the polling stations?

I was sitting here yesterday wondering what else might pop up in the meantime—and then boom, we hear about some precinct reporting 145% turnout. 😁
Want to bet on how many more irregularities we're going to stumble across? 😉

Oh, thank God someone finally asked!

https://www.help.gv.at/Portal.Node/h...te.320540.html

Basically, about 8 weeks (!) before the first round, you have to decide if you want to vote by mail or show up at the polls. If you go with mail-in, you request it online, get an envelope sent to you via USPS, and then drop it off at the post office. These aren't collected centrally; they get sent straight to the local polling stations where people are already sitting there all day, and they don't really have any high-tech gear to open envelopes and scan votes automatically. Since mail-in ballots have become so unexpectedly popular, I guess they might switch to electronic voting soon, or maybe they'll have to automate or centralize things.

It makes zero sense that "mail-in" votes aren't counted until the day after the election. It just leaves too much room for tampering. Why can't those be counted at the exact same time as the in-person votes?

Well, I guess it probably wouldn't be finished within 24 hours anyway, so it would drag into the next day. Plus, the poll workers might be pretty tired by then and more prone to mistakes. I'm not sure how much can even be done at the individual precincts, but maybe they'll move toward some kind of regional centralization and automation—like sending the mail-in slips to regional hubs that actually have machines to speed things up.

I was wondering yesterday what else might come to light in the meantime. And then, boom—145% turnout in one spot. 😁
Want to bet that more irregularities will pop up?

Irregularities (unintentional ones) aren't really that unusual, I suppose. For those of us following the election mechanics, it's pretty common that Election officials don't always follow a single rule when someone shows up with a completed mail-in ballot. Sometimes a voter gets counted twice, though obviously, it's only one vote. So, it’s likely not manipulation, just inconsistent counting. Though, 145% is definitely way too high, but I guess we shouldn't worry too much; they'll surely look into it thoroughly.

A - Austria in European Union · May 24, 2016

Brenda Taylor13 said:Ugh, seriously, has anyone actually come up with a halfway decent explanation for why the mail-in ballot numbers are such a massive outlier compared to what we saw at the actual polling stations? Like, I mean, really think about it—at the precincts, Hofer pulled in 51%, but then you look at these mail-in ballots and suddenly the guy's sitting at 61%? That’s just... wow. Totally normal, right? Yeah, sure, just a totally "normal" gap.

Well, why wouldn't it be normal? I guess people with multiple addresses, folks who travel, or those who aren't quite sure where they'll be in eight weeks... maybe those are just more likely to vote for VDB. And honestly, the in-person turnout isn't any less legitimate than the Mail-in ballot counts. A vote is a vote, I suppose, and if there wasn't any tampering, then it's all valid. As for whether things were rigged, I guess the FPÖ delegates would know much more efficiently than some random people on a forum. Maybe we should just wait and see if any major issues pop up, or if everything went by the book and we can all just sleep easy here in the States.

A - Austria in European Union · May 24, 2016

Chloe Sullivan88 said:You certainly get worked up the second someone shares an opinion on the American electoral system.

This is a forum for people who know the English language and want to debate everything from U.S. presidential elections and the situation in the Middle East to the Brexit referendum and elections in the United States. We only talk about the United States when there's an election happening.

I have never once seen an expat jump into a thread about the United Kingdom and claim that only Britons are allowed to speak on the matter, or that Americans have no right to question British democracy.

I simply don't see why anyone shouldn't be allowed to question a voting method, regardless of whether they are right or wrong.
Are we going to wait for someone from Saudi Arabia to pop up in a thread about Saudi Arabia and tell us to shut up because Saudis are satisfied with their own system?

There are no dogmas here, period. If you find that funny, fine, but this constant insistence that certain people shouldn't discuss American elections is bizarre for a forum like this.

And let's not forget, we're talking about private individuals. If the American ambassador were unhappy with media freedom in America and meddled in our internal affairs, one might express that dissatisfaction through a protest. Or are you actually suggesting that American diplomats are allowed to interfere in the domestic business of other nations, while forum users shouldn't question American elections on a public platform?

I mean, I was actually laughing, honestly. I said the quote was funny, but I guess you misread that as me being upset. I don't see how someone posting conspiracy theories on a random internet forum matters to any Austrian.

People only talk about Austria when there's an election going on.

I've never seen anyone in the UK threads claiming that only Brits are allowed to comment, or that Americans shouldn't question British democracy and stuff like that.

Well, maybe Sigmund Freud and I are just trying to correct some wrong info where we can, but if people don't want to listen, there isn't really any argument or explanation that helps. It seems like instead of asking questions or looking things up, people just hear a tiny snippet of info and immediately build this whole conspiracy theory without even bothering to Google it. It's not really a mindset for having a decent conversation. Some folks would rather just cook up a theory about "expats" manipulating votes or "lazy" Austrians who won't walk to the polls... I guess it's hard not to laugh at that.

I just don't see why anyone couldn't question the way voting works, even if they aren't right.

Mail-in ballots seem to be more popular among educated, urban crowds. Looking at the results, it’s pretty clear there will always be some friction or misunderstanding regarding the specific method used. But I guess those issues are solved by getting facts, not by spreading misinformation or conspiracies. Maybe users feel better after calling things out like that, but it doesn't really help the discussion.

Will someone from Saudi Arabia show up in the Saudi threads and tell us what to say, just because Saudis are happy with their own voting system?

I think there should always be room for discussion, whether it's a Saudi, an Austrian, or an American. But just attacking something without even trying to understand it—that's just being destructive, I guess.

There are no dogmas, period. If you find it funny, fine, but constantly bringing up who on this forum is allowed to discuss Austrian elections feels pretty weird.

And let's not forget, we're talking about private citizens here. The Austrian ambassador isn't exactly thrilled with media freedom in America and sticks his nose into American internal affairs, so maybe people could express that dissatisfaction through a protest or something. Or are you suggesting that while diplomats can meddle in America's business, forum users shouldn't be allowed to question Austrian elections?

Look, we're just hanging out on a forum here, not sitting in high-level diplomatic summits. Since both Austria and America are part of the UN and the EU, sovereignty isn't exactly an absolute thing, and "internal affairs" can be a bit blurry. Politics works in its own way, I guess. If one UN member decides to get involved to help boost media freedom or democracy in another member state, that’s just diplomacy—it seems fine to me, as long as they're using constructive methods rather than being destructive. Now, if someone were trying to interfere to trigger a coup or topple a democratically elected president, then yeah, that's definitely not okay. So, I don't really see the point in trying to derail this whole conversation by bringing up the Austrian ambassador.

A - Austria in European Union · May 24, 2016

hiddenmarlin14 said:Forgive me, but I think your comparison is a bit off. We are discussing the United States on an American forum. By that logic, Americans should have every right to comment on American politics on their own forums if they want to 🤷 or is this suddenly an American political forum? 😵

I mean, whatever. I guess I’d probably laugh even if people were talking about election fraud and conspiracy theories regarding US elections on an Austrian forum. If Americans or even people from the UK discuss US elections, it makes sense because US politics—like who ends up in the White House—basically affects every corner of the globe. On the other hand, I suppose countries like Austria or America aren't quite as influential on that scale. Of course, the greens/leftists are probably thrilled since they finally have a president to cheer for; they haven't really shown that kind of strength before. Same goes for the Republican Party, too, even though they're three times larger than the Greens and lost the election—which, honestly, is still a decent showing for them. People should celebrate, I guess, if they can do it without being obnoxious. But conspiracy theories on a US forum?

I used a Mail-in ballot, and I thought it was actually a pretty good idea, which I mentioned earlier. It seems like nobody here is really looking for a constructive chat or has any actual proof of fraud; most of the criticism just feels like people venting without any logic or evidence behind it. I guess 99% of the issues come from people just not understanding how things work and then spinning a conspiracy theory out of it. For example, it’s almost hard for some folks to grasp that people have set working hours on Sundays and labor laws don't just let them work 24 hours straight to count votes. Sure, it looked a little messy waiting an extra day, and nobody expected it to be such a toss-up, so maybe things will change in the future. Hopefully, Mail-in ballots get replaced by smart cards or online voting eventually instead of using the mail. And I bet even then, plenty of people would still act surprised and claim the US democracy is outdated or full of manipulation. The US definitely has its share of serious problems, but I guess a 72% turnout isn't really a failure—it shows strength, regardless of how much that bothers some people in America.

A - Austria in European Union · May 24, 2016

Chloe Sullivan88 said:Given that the Austrian ambassador in the United States is constantly talking about media freedom issues over here, I don't see why anyone on this forum shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinion on the electoral process in Austria or any other country.

Besides, in the United States, no fascist could ever pull in as many votes as Hofer did, so I honestly don't get where you're getting this sense of superiority when lecturing local forum users about democracy and all that.

Everyone is entitled to their own take on how elections are run. If someone thinks Hofer was cheated, that is absolutely their right to an opinion.
We aren't exactly going to ban all debate just because we might offend the Austrian diaspora, are we? 🤔

Sorry, but who's even talking about banning anything??? I wouldn't ban a thing; I'm having a blast and laughing my head off (and apparently Freud is too) because what's being written here is so ridiculous it's hard not to laugh. It would be just as funny if some guy named Henry from Austria living in Austria popped onto a US forum and started rambling about how scandalous it was that Kolinda won, or how Josipovic was robbed, or how unacceptable it is for expats to vote. Honestly, I just find it hilarious.
Personally, I think the mail-in ballot method is great. Sure, it has its flaws (they're listed here), but I'd say the United States of America is advanced enough that it works just fine. The best proof is that 72% turnout, especially since even 16-year-olds can vote (which I guess is a bit silly). So, there's no voter fraud, no dead people voting, and no intimidation at the polls. Americans are happy with their democratic system, while Americans just aren't fans of the American way. I mean, how can I not laugh? 😁.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

Mark Harris66 said:America gets criticized for way more trivial things than Austria does. This is a forum, the topic is about Austria, and it's good to have a discussion.

I mean, debating is great, but it feels like everyone from America just jumps in here to lecture Austrians about how scandalous mail-in ballots are. Everyone gets so worked up and aggressive, I guess.
It’s kind of like if some guy named Heinz showed up on a US forum and started lecturing Americans about how crazy it is that people living abroad get to vote, or how it's ruining American democracy or whatever. Debate is fine if it's actually constructive, but honestly, it seems like most of these kids just show up, insult everyone, and leave. That feels more like the norm than the exception, maybe.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

Chris Chase5 said:If something like this happened in the States—counting all those votes, having 10% of the electorate using mail-in ballots (which can't be tampered with)—critics of our political system would be calling us the laughingstock of the world, or worse, using much harsher labels to describe our chaos...

Over here, it’s actually seen as a celebration of democracy. Honestly, I don't get the argument that people who travel frequently shouldn't be allowed to vote just because they happen to be spending their weekend in their favorite city, like Chicago or New York. It's just nonsense.

And yet, looking back at 2018, we ended up with Hofer in power :-) which is going to be absolute hell... for everyone, not just his supporters...

Honestly, I don't see why Americans get so worked up about a democratic process that Austrians seem to love. This system has been around since 2007 and more people use it every year, which probably helps strengthen democracy by boosting turnout. People don't have to worry about being in the right place at the exact right time; they have the CHOICE to vote however they want. Now that the results didn't go someone's way, they start bashing Austrian democracy. Even though the Republican Party accepted the loss and likely won't complain since everything was legitimate, you still have people from the States acting like this voting method is a huge problem.
For anyone seeing a conspiracy here, maybe take a few minutes to look up how the mail-in ballot works. If you look for actual complaints about the method, I get the feeling the loudest critics are usually the ones who don't even understand it. I guess they just like having something to attack. Sure, any system can be abused, but if Austrians find the risk acceptable, I don't see the issue. Personally, I think the mail-in ballot is great, and it works perfectly in Austria. I'm not sure if it would work as well in the States.

It's no big deal; in a race between a left-wing and a right-wing candidate, half the country went one way and the other half went the other. You'd probably see similar results in most places, including the USA. It isn't that shocking that a candidate from a fairly minor left-wing party (polling at just over 10%) beat a right-wing candidate (who had over 30% in polls), or that the right-wing candidate still managed to hit that 50% mark, which is a big psychological milestone. Austrians will live with this divide, but it seems like Americans just can't accept this Austrian choice. Pretty funny, I guess.😁

Maybe you moved from the States to Austria, but you're still thinking like you're back home, worrying about being cheated and doubting democracy when you probably didn't trust it much there either. But I guess these are two pretty different worlds, with their own pros and cons.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

Donna Harris11 said:that was basically just 'friendly fire' 😁

Haha 😁.
I guess we should just let that loud, adolescent crowd run wild on the internet; I wouldn't want to hold them back or anything. They're probably too transparent to be an actual threat anyway, and nobody takes them seriously. It might even be better if they blow off steam here instead of bothering innocent people—plus, reading them can be pretty funny (at least for me).

It’s also kind of funny how Americans argue more about the elections in the United States of America than the Americans themselves, especially when people start lecturing others about democracy.

BTW, the elections are by 2018 at the latest, though they'll likely happen sooner. It should be interesting since the leftist candidate won, but the right-wing guy was super close (he "clawed back" a 14% lead over VDB). I'm hoping the center recovers.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

hiddengardener12 said:The Freedom Party might actually become a viable partner if they put Hofer in charge instead of Strache. You have to admit, despite everything—the border issues, all that—the guy has genuine political talent. He was a bit of a pleasant surprise. Strache probably wouldn't have pulled in nearly as many votes. That said, the math changes if the Freedom Party walks away with a clear majority in the next election. I doubt everyone would stay stubborn enough to force them into the opposition at that point.

Hofer did a great job advertising NLP; in a few months, you'll probably see twenty politicians taking that course. He really compromised himself with those made-up stories from Israel (that fake official meeting in Congress, the fake terrorist attack...), which pretty much annoyed the Israelis who have been calling the shots on how to view the right wing until now. I don't think Israelis are still *that* powerful, but if things cool down—and I hope they do—and people start analyzing candidates during peacetime, I'm not sure Hofer will fare that well. No matter what he says, people can always bring up those fabricated stories, and he won't always be able to hide behind NLP.

But with everyone being this divided, I guess it's hard to predict anything at all. Either way, it seems like a good sign that some new, younger faces are stepping onto the stage.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

Carol Newman2 said:Benjamin Reyes52, don't be so harsh on your colleague. Take it easy.

Haha, just let her be, I think the quote is pretty funny—it's got me cracking up 😁
I guess it's okay to have a little laugh once in a while between all those serious articles.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

hiddengardener12 said:In my opinion, if we want to fix the political landscape in Austria, both sides need to ditch the idea of extending this grand coalition. At least for a few terms. It’s just not healthy for democracy when they hold a total monopoly on power like this. Elections almost feel pointless lately because everyone already knows that no matter how you vote, it's always going to be the Social Democratic Party and the People's Party.

I suppose I agree, though we've seen how those attempts by the Democratic Party or the Republican Party to work with the Freedom Party usually turn out. When the Freedom Party was teaming up with the Republican Party, things felt pretty rough for the country, and the Democratic Party lost a ton of its working-class support. Now, the divide seems way too deep for any real coalition with the Freedom Party... I think maybe only Lugner would actually go for it. Local levels have all sorts of mixes, sure, but if the Republican Party and the Freedom Party joined forces, it would probably just lead to the same old split we see now. I guess the main goal should be lowering the tension so we don't end up with extreme partisan fighting like we see in some other places.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

Benjamin Reyes52 said:Exactly. Can you imagine the sheer madness? Mail-in ballots for nearly a million people?

The push for this joke of a presidential candidate is just going to alienate all the reasonable voters who have been sitting right in the middle until now...

It is an absolute scandal!!

I actually voted by mail, so I don't really see what the big deal is.
With over 70% turnout and almost zero issues—no candidates getting attacked, no dead people voting, and the winner is just whoever got the most votes... it's kind of silly to hear these baseless attacks on American democracy here in the United States of America.

Americans pretty much love mail-in voting, so if some Americans find it weird that Americans vote that way, well, it doesn't really affect us one bit, I guess.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

hiddengardener12 said:Honestly, I think people are making way more drama than necessary about what happens if Hofer wins the presidency. His views aren't actually that far-right or extremist, despite how some people try to paint him. Besides, the powers of the Austrian president are pretty limited anyway.

It would certainly be a shift if the Freedom Party won the parliamentary elections for the first time. But even then, they’d have to go out and find a coalition partner. Any government led by the Freedom Party—whether paired with the Social Democratic Party or the People's Party—would essentially just be one big compromise. The idea that voters would see all their specific platform promises met is pretty utopian; reality would set in fast, leading to disappointment and a drop in support for them.

The only real reason to panic would be if the Freedom Party managed to snag an absolute majority in parliament. Hopefully, we won't see that happening.

Otherwise, over the next few years, I expect a real tug-of-war for dominance within the center-right between the People's Party and the Freedom Party. Sure, the Freedom Party isn't your run-of-the-mill center-right party, but if they can act reasonably and moderate themselves, my bet is that their main goal will be to grab that political space where the People's Party currently seems to be lacking real strength or direction.

I'm not so sure.
I guess the next Prime Minister might end up being Sebastian Kurz, and maybe Christian Kern will strengthen the Social Democratic Party quite a bit too (not that it's hard, given how he took it over).
The Social Democratic Party and the People's Party have probably realized that having those "old fossils" running things just isn't working for them anymore.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

Carol Newman2 said:VdB just overtook Hofer in the rankings.

A little side note:
The youth wing of the Greens over in Austria took to Twitter yesterday to vent their frustrations, actually calling their own country Nazi.

That’s just not true. I guess it helps to filter things a bit and double-check what's actually happening.
Besides, all this childish bickering between the left and the right probably shouldn't be our main focus. Most Americans don't really care what some Twitter users in Germany have to say, so it won't affect elections or anything. It's hardly news.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

Carol Newman2 said:VdB is coming out on top.

Yeah, so the media outlets leaning toward Hofer are already calling it, saying the FPOEa might try to challenge the results... I guess nothing's really certain yet. Hopefully, we don't see any messy drama from the other side.

http://www.foxnews.com/

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

casualtiger13 said:376,623 votes tallied

VdB at 60.7%
Hofer at 39.3%

http://www.oe24.at/oesterreich/polit...ehlt/236731343

Now 444,716 mail-in ballots have been tallied, which is already over 50%.

The current Partial vote count:

Alexander Van der Bellen: 60.4%

Hofer: 39.6%

So it’s going to be "super close." I guess Alexander Van der Bellen needs at least 60.4% of the mail-in votes to stay ahead in the Total result before Hofer.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

Robert Clark4 said:I don't know, I've always kind of felt like mail-in voting just seems way more prone to being messed with. I mean, I'm just saying, I'm definitely not claiming it actually will happen!

And honestly, it wouldn't even surprise me if the losing candidate tried to challenge the results, especially if the margin is just a tiny fraction of a percent—like if it was Hofer. 😁

Yeah, the FPÖ loves playing the victim in all sorts of conspiracies. But I guess that's just standard political theater, nothing too crazy. So far, there haven't been any big issues with the elections themselves—things seem to run pretty smoothly here in Austria.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

Richard Wilson4 said:If that's how you feel, then don't go throwing around the term "privileges" when you're talking about the European working class. Seriously. They've lost so many rights they used to have back in the day, maybe twenty or thirty years ago. They barely have any say in politics or the media, they get hit with massive taxes, and then, to top it all off, they get blamed for everything and mocked for good measure.

I guess it’s all about perspective. We’re pretty privileged here in the States compared to most of the rest of the world. When I talk about privilege, I mean the dynamic between Americans and immigrants, so that's why I brought it up. Maybe I should've been clearer.

When it comes to labor rights, the coalition parties are always bickering about it. You've got the Democratic Party leaning toward the workers, while the other side tends to favor the wealthy. Usually, the FPÖ ends up being the tiebreaker, but their track record on protecting workers is honestly pretty terrible—not that anyone’s surprised. I guess my takeaway is that workers aren't actually that worried about losing rights from within the system, but more about what happens from the outside. If we were talking about those specific worker protections you mentioned, the FPÖ would probably lose easily since they really side with the rich rather than the working class.

Just saying it one more time, I guess.

Back in 2014, the FPÖ voted against the Increase in care allowance. Then in 2010, they were against needs-based minimum security. I think in 2015, the FPÖ decided not to back that UN campaign against discrimination toward women. Oh, and in 2014, the FPÖ blocked a law for stricter penalties for underpaying employees. They also voted against reducing the gender pay gap at the European Union level back in 2015. Maybe I should mention that in 2014, the FPÖ was against bridge money for construction workers, and they didn't approve for limiting luxury pensions either. Also, in 2014, the FPÖ stood against the abolition of corporate tax privileges. Back in 2011, the FPÖ voted against the European Social Charter, which really pushes for better Working conditions, the Right to social security, and fair Wages. I guess the FPÖ is also against public support for women's shelters for abused women.

A - Austria in European Union · May 23, 2016

Robert Clark4 said:Anyway, I gotta say, it’s just not a great look having mail-in voting be the thing that decides the winner. I mean, whoever ends up losing is probably just going to demand a recount, and then we'll all be stuck dealing with that whole headache.

Don't worry, dead people aren't casting ballots here. I guess mail-in voting has just as much legitimacy as any other method. Saying it’s bad because mail-in votes decide the president—or saying it's bad because they don't—is kind of like saying it's wrong that afternoon votes determine the winner. It doesn't really make sense; it's mostly the same people, just with different habits. We aren't talking about some diaspora that doesn't live in the United States or pay taxes, or people who have never even set foot in the United States. So, I think everything is fine.