Posts by Nathan Morris3

Sandra Johnson58 said:Man, you didn't actually answer anything. You just threw Romanians and Austrians into the mix and smugly declared that if someone is poor, they're more likely to commit crimes... no shit, Sherlock. I didn't think everyone in Western Europe was somehow magically immune to crime. Plus, you keep trying to shove every single immigrant into one big bucket and treating them as identical just because it makes your argument easier.
I've said this a bunch of times already, but you can't do that. An immigrant from Vietnam is nothing like someone from Italy, Eastern Europe, or the Middle East. There are huge cultural, social, and—like you mentioned—socio-economic differences. Immigrants aren't some single, uniform group; you can't look at them that way. They're different from each other like cats and dogs.
Anyway, let me get back to my actual question, because maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm exhausted as hell, so I'll try to make this super obvious.
So, I'm asking you: why is it that for every rape committed by, say, a Vietnamese person, there are way more from the Arab community? Why is it that for every theft by a Chinese person, there are way more people from the Middle East? Why does a guy from Sub-Saharan Africa seem way less prone to crime than some dude from the MENA region? Why aren't there piles of videos showing Chinese or Malaysian immigrants beating people up? Why don't Romanians, regardless of who they are, organize coordinated groups of 100 people to attack women?
Why do some immigrant groups adapt incredibly fast despite coming from totally different environments, while others barely even speak the language of the country they were born in by the second generation?
And why, when you go to big cities, do people warn you not to walk into certain neighborhoods that happen to be mostly populated by folks from the Middle East or parts of Sub-Saharan Africa?
Why are the most dangerous cities in Sweden and France the ones with the highest concentrations of people from the MENA region or the Horn of Africa?
It's honestly fascinating to me that you never hear those kinds of warnings when you're heading into a neighborhood where the majority are immigrants from the Far East, like Chinese people.
Don't just hit me with that "socio-economic reasons" line again, because people coming from the Far East or Sub-Saharan Africa aren't in any better shape than Arabs, nor do they come from organized, uncorrupt countries. It's just that they don't cause nearly as much trouble, so nobody has an issue with them. I mean, when was the last time you saw a protest against Chinese immigrants?

I mean, to me, they stop being "refugees" once they hit that first safe country. And honestly? If anyone seriously breaks the law—like assaults or rapes—I’d personally deport them back immediately, regardless of how bad the war is there. Like, if you're gonna go out and rape and steal, then don't complain when you get sent back to a war zone. Seriously.

Nah, that's not weird at all to me since it's basically survival of the fittest over there. But I definitely can't bring myself to feel bad for people who would throw a kid overboard just to keep the boat afloat.

Wait, hold up. You were the one who wrote earlier that it's crazy to let women and kids go on a dinghy across the Mediterranean, so I'm linking that article again. And now you're trying to twist my quote to say you could just say men flee to bring families later? God, did you even read the article? Half the boat was women and children, and it was only meant for six people. They didn't just survive because the Italian or Spanish Coast Guard picked them up; they survived because they actually had a real chance.☕

You didn't say anything direct, you just kind of implied through your writing that those parties lie to and cheat their voters, which basically suggests those people are too stupid to realize it and vote for them anyway.

The asylum process in the EU is just pathetic, honestly. It's full of loopholes that immigrants just jump through. You see cases where guys rape 15-year-old girls and then suddenly, once they're in jail, they "convert" to Christianity... even though if you actually ask them anything about it, they have zero clue. They just claim they're being threatened in whatever backwater place they came from. Basically, they use the Bill of Rights to screw over the actual citizens of the country. If I were in charge of deciding who gets deported, I’d tattoo a cross on their forehead and send them right back to deal with the terrorists themselves.
The whole asylum system in the entire EU really needs to be fixed, maybe modeled after Australia or even better, like the US citizenship test.
Anyway, what you wrote above doesn't mean squat to me. I didn't say I support extremists coming in; I just asked how we're supposed to know they *aren't* extremists or criminals. We can't even tell if they're economic migrants, refugees, killers, or whatever else, because most of them don't even have papers. They just get registered at centers in Greece without any real security checks, and then they're just let loose to wander wherever they want. I'm not trying to say most immigrants are criminals—not at all—but we simply can't know who is who. And when one bad apple shows up in a country, it drags down the reputation of everyone from that area. This isn't just about money or resources; like I said, it's a massive security issue. It's unheard of to let such a huge mass of people move freely through a country and cross borders like it's nothing. If they tried doing things the way they do in Europe to get into Israel, they'd be wiped out like chickens.

🤣 Christian spirit? For crying out loud, what are you even talking about? If there was any Christian spirit left in America, thieves wouldn't be running wild all over the place. Besides, just as an example, laws and Constitutions are pretty easy to change when, say, extremists take power.
Oh, and then while they're busy, like, keeping crews in camps, they'll probably sing that song perfectly while "respecting" the Constitution and the law.

America, though I've traveled quite a bit and seen the world. I've lived abroad too, so I guess I have some perspective on how this whole half-broken multicultural mess actually works.

Doesn't matter.

Thanks, you really nailed what I've been saying all along—you can't just lump everything together like that, I guess.

I guess I'm just wondering why, if a Vietnamese person commits a crime, you see way more people from the Middle East showing up... or like, when there's a theft by a Chinese person, suddenly there are tons of folks from the Middle East around too. Maybe it's just how things seem?

I just sent a reply to my colleague over in Vienna. Anyway, I think your numbers are a bit off. I might have already shared the link, so maybe you missed it? From that 40% figure regarding foreign rapists, I believe the largest group is Turks, followed by Romanians and then Mexicans, if I recall correctly. I guess I already explained why—it's mostly down to the status of women and certain social norms, I suppose.
When it comes to leftover crime stats, it usually boils down to how things are organized. Like, with car thefts, you see a lot of Romanians, or with drug trafficking, maybe Afghans make up about 14%. I guess it has less to do with religion and more about how those groups are set up.

I guess you can't just blame socioeconomic factors. People coming from the Far East or Sub-Saharan Africa aren't exactly living better lives than Arabs, and they aren't coming from organized, corruption-free countries either. It feels more like they just don't cause as much trouble, so people don't complain about them as much. Maybe.

I guess you shouldn't lump all crime into one big category. Crime involving women doesn't really have anything to do with the economy, I suppose. But drug crimes and burglaries? Yeah, those definitely do.
Domestic violence cases rarely even make it to the police. I think back to those stats from the States—over 15,000 reports a year, with more than 30 women killed annually. Whether the perpetrators are migrants or from the Muslim community, I'm not sure since the data doesn't specify. I don't have the exact numbers for Austria on hand, though I bet you could find them pretty easily. Either way, I know there's a lot of violence happening around local Austrians, and I'm pretty sure the numbers are even higher among migrants. Maybe it’s less about alcohol and more about certain "social norms," I guess.

I mean, to me, they stop being refugees once they hit that first safe country. Honestly, if anyone seriously breaks the law—like committing assaults or rapes—I’d probably just deport them back immediately, regardless of whether there's a war going on over there or not. If you're heading back into a war zone, maybe don't go around raping and stealing, you know?

Nobody wants thugs hanging around them, and honestly, I'd love to see every single one of them locked up or just sent packing. But you can't exactly deport the Austrians, and we can't just ship migrants back to war zones overnight either, I guess. Maybe it's just complicated like that.

I guess you were saying earlier that men are the ones fleeing, implying they'd bring their families along safely later. But then I look at this article I'm linking, and honestly, maybe you didn't catch the whole story? Half the people on that six-person raft were actually women and kids.

When things first kicked off, most of the refugees were men. The idea was basically to get to Europe first, and then use family reunification to bring everyone else over safely. Once they realized that wasn't working out quite like they planned, they started sending the women and kids along too. I guess Merkel just decided it was better to let them take those rubber dinghies across the Mediterranean rather than sending planes to fetch them. Politically speaking, she probably wouldn't have survived any other choice, which makes sense to me. Anyway, have you actually found an article where it was only women and children? I'm not saying that didn't happen, but I'm not sure what you're trying to prove with it.

I'm not saying most immigrants are criminals—not at all—but I guess we just can't know who everyone actually is. And when some jerk arrives in a country with an agenda, they end up dragging down the reputation of everyone from that area. It isn't just about money or resources, though; like I said, it’s a massive security issue. It's pretty unheard of to let such a huge number of people move around the country and cross borders without any real oversight.

I totally agree. I guess the ones who get hurt most by parasites are just innocent bystanders, maybe.
I don't really see a great alternative here, I guess. Just seems like a choice between different kinds of garbage.

I'm from America, but I've traveled quite a bit and seen plenty of the world. I’ve also lived abroad, so I guess I have some perspective on how this whole messy multicultural thing actually works.

Multicultural societies are just a reality we have to deal with—you can't really fight them off once they're here. I guess you can only try to make sure things run somewhat smoothly. It's all just a result of globalization, old colonial stuff, wars, and everyone having different standards of living... Plus, I actually come from an immigrant background in a pretty tight-knit society, so maybe I see things a little differently.

I guess I don't really see the point. Why would I, someone who actually lived through a war in America and moved here for work, go out of my way to help or serve people arriving from places like Syria, Afghanistan, or Iraq? I mean, what kind of logic is that? It doesn't make much sense to me. They left their families behind in such unstable situations, too. And honestly, if you're looking at cause and effect, why didn't those millions of people just organize and stand up for their own country? Maybe they didn't have the resources, I suppose, but a million people could definitely make an impact if they really wanted to.

Yeah, it’s pretty sad how things turned out. But I guess you might have missed the part where we—both Austrians and Americans, for that matter—were actually busy helping tear down the people who were keeping things stable over there. I don't know how old you are, but it wasn't even that long ago that we were teaming up with the Americans to pull off coups, toppling dictators while simultaneously sending weapons to other dictators who just happened to be more our style. So, basically, we take away the guy maintaining order, label him a dictator (which he technically is), arm the radicals, and send them cash... and now someone over there is stuck choosing between fighting the guy who's an enemy to us, or fighting the guys who are our friends but are totally extreme. I mean, tell me, if someone messed up your country and caused total chaos, who would you even fight for? A million unorganized, unarmed people don't have much choice but to run. I really don't think they love their country any less than we love America.

My company actually just did exactly that—they gave some verbal advice to the women on the team, nothing in writing, I guess. They were basically saying it might be better if the younger women didn't work the night shifts. Maybe.

I don't think that's illogical, really. I was just repeating what you said the police officers told you. It just seems like those people who are actually supposed to be looking out for everyone's safety are just pointing fingers and saying, "not our problem, blame this guy instead." Maybe.

I'll try to keep this email short—basically, these kids are still just finding themselves. They showed up expecting a dream, but instead, they've hit the reality of being broke and uncertain. They're pretty traumatized, maybe even a bit wild when it comes to women, fueled by hormones, and they mostly just hang out with people exactly like them.

I guess as things get less welcoming toward them—which might be unfair in some cases—finding decent work is going to be such a struggle. If they can't find anything else, maybe crime becomes the only option left. It’s just really sad and pathetic for everyone involved.

Yeah, I guess I agree.

I guess any religion that dictates things like gender roles or what you can and can't eat feels a bit incomplete to me. To my mind, no higher power would really care about whether someone eats pork or anything else. I probably shouldn't even get into the whole religious wars thing...

I mean, you can talk about Judaism or Islam or Christianity if you want—it doesn't bother me, really. As long as you aren't just doing it to be hurtful or stir the pot, I guess. I just think that even if we got rid of all religion tomorrow, gender inequality wouldn't just vanish. You'd probably still be left wondering, "Wait, so we ditched religion and everything is still a mess?" Maybe the answer is just human nature.

Chris Chase5 said:I already mentioned that this could lead to some pretty serious consequences, so I won't go over that again. Does anyone else see this as just a social experiment that’s bound to end badly?

I'm seeing talk about sexual slavery that isn't even relevant to my point, mentions of Islam in Saudi Arabia, veiled women in London and in Vienna... I see the cultural norms prevalent in many Islamic countries, and please forgive me if I don't want them appearing here. And then there's Sweden... did what happened in Cologne take place in some parallel dimension? Is the reporter being assaulted in Egypt only in an alternate universe?

The fundamental issue is the cultural backwardness of these newcomers, specifically their deeply ingrained views regarding women.

Have you noticed any shifts in sexual dynamics in your area since this new population arrived?

ISIS has already sent a few hundred of its fighters, who will likely start making moves very soon.

You're Muslim, aren't you? And you live in Vienna? I didn't manage to follow the thread last week, and you might have already replied, sorry. If you are—have you noticed certain arrivals becoming radicalized? And have you reported it?

Why would I, someone from the Republic of America who survived the war there and moved here for work, feel compelled to weep for or serve a newly arrived population from Syria, Afghanistan, or Iraq? By what moral standard? What logic justifies leaving their own families in insecurity and poverty? Why didn't that million people organize and fight for their own country—since you're looking for causes and effects... oh sure, they had no one to fight for, right? A million people could certainly find a way...

My company actually organized something similar—do you know what they advised women to do verbally, rather than putting it in writing? They suggested that young women should avoid working night shifts.

To shorten my long email—these boys arrived during their formative years, they arrived with dreams, they arrived into a reality of poverty and instability, they are traumatized, they have primitive attitudes toward women, they are driven by hormones, and they gravitate toward those just like them.

As the surrounding community becomes increasingly less open to them (which is partly unfair), finding jobs will become incredibly difficult. If they do stay, crime of one kind or another might be their only path forward. It's tragic and pathetic for everyone involved.

Any "religion" that dictates the status of men and women, or what foods are permissible or forbidden, is flawed in my belief system. No form of a higher power would view eating certain meats as inherently positive or negative. I won't even get started on religious wars...

Sorry, I guess I didn't quite catch what you meant in that sentence (not teasing!). I was just asking why, for example, outlets like krone.at or oe24.at would cover up incidents involving migrants.

Someone who sees this as a social experiment that’s only going to end badly.

But I don't think I followed you—what would be a better alternative? And maybe we aren't even talking about the same thing, since I think we actually agree on letting everyone into the country without any filters, and that there needs to be an alternative for refugee housing. I also suspect we’d agree that we should send fewer weapons to Saudi Arabia and more requests for them to take in refugees, though I guess you know how slim those chances are.
If I understood you right, you’re mostly advocating for building walls, thinking that might help reduce the chaos at its source (over in the Middle East)? Personally, I feel like building walls just makes things worse where the trouble starts. If you want, maybe we could have a polite, constructive chat about our disagreement so we don't waste energy on stuff we already agree on.

I see stories about sex trafficking that I don't care for, I see "Islam" in Saudi Arabia, I see veiled women in London and in Vienna... I see the cultural norms in many Islamic countries, so excuse me if I don't want them here. I also see Sweden... Did what happened in Cologne occur in another dimension? Was that reporter in Egypt raped in some parallel universe?

I get it, and I respect that it’s not your cup of tea (it isn't mine either), and I guess I don't even need to comment on the sex trafficking part. Or the idea that anyone is imposing their social norms on you. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what your issue is, because I see these same things too, but I feel like I see much more than just the selective examples of radical Islam that clearly come through the media. Let me ask you the same thing I asked my colleague—what kind of Muslims do you actually hang out with to form such an opinion? Are they really like that? Or are you just talking about people you don't know while ignoring the ones you do? I lived in America and had Muslims in my class, and I know plenty of them today. So, sorry if this is disappointing, but what you listed definitely isn't the whole picture; it's just one slice. To me, the problem lies in radicalization (whether it's Islam, the far-right, the left, nationalism, or chauvinism...), and if the problem were only Islam, then coexistence in the society where we grew up wouldn't even be possible. I'm not saying these groups are compatible or incompatible with us, I'm just saying it's a big mistake to boil everything down to religion. I'm allergic to all kinds of narrow-mindedness and intolerance, and the difference between us is that I see that closed-mindedness outside of a religious context, too, which is pretty significant. Looking at what's happening in Germany and Austria, it seems wild to blame a group that is actually weak and vulnerable for hatred and intolerance. You should call out specific radicals in Islamic or chauvinistic circles instead. Don't attack people who haven't done anything to you or pose any threat. And honestly, if you're afraid of your neighbor Edin just because he's Muslim, well, I guess you're never going to feel comfortable anywhere in the world.

I guess the real issue is just a cultural gap with the newcomers, and maybe it's also about how women are viewed culturally.

I totally agree. I don't know much about you, but if you have strong ties to the region, maybe you realize how hard it is for someone from a super patriarchal place, like rural Alabama, to fit into our Western world and its views on women's rights. I'm always going to stand up for women, LGBTQ+ folks, and minorities. It just feels a bit silly reading these teenagers from America posting in German or Austrian threads, lecturing us about equality when they grew up in such traditional environments. And honestly, the gap gets even wider when you look at places like Afghanistan, Russia, Pakistan, Guatemala, or Saudi Arabia. I guess I'm a bit puzzled by how you linked everything back to Islam, since the whole issue seems way more complex than just whether someone wears a headscarf or not. I tend to get involved—mostly through donations rather than my own time—with initiatives that focus on education and improving life for women in societies where they aren't treated equally. You might see a veil as the main issue, but I think their real struggle is violence and being trapped by a lack of education. I don't look at these women with hate; I just want to help them gain independence. To me, clothing freedom happens naturally once they are empowered. Trying to force changes on symptoms can actually be counterproductive because it hits their sense of identity. If we just help people get educated and equal, I guess everything else will fall into place.

I guess you might see some shifts in sexual dynamics in your research since those new populations arrived, maybe?

I don't know, but like I said before, everything seems to be happening with the migrants lately. It wouldn't even surprise me if sexual predators were involved, honestly—I'd actually be more shocked if they weren't. I guess a lot of those "incompatible" types are coming from the economic migrant groups rather than people fleeing war in Syria. And maybe we should probably be doing way more regarding integration for the people staying here, instead of just treating them like some lower class.

I guess the IS sent over a few hundred of their fighters, who might start making moves pretty soon. Maybe.

I guess there isn't really a need to send fighters disguised as refugees. Most of the trouble linked to ISIS actually comes from people who aren't even migrants and have been living in the US for years. Maybe ISIS just wants to hide terrorists among migrants to make their plan of radicalizing the US through more hatred work better.

So, you're Muslim, right? And living in Vienna? Sorry, I couldn't really keep up with this thread last week, I think you might have already replied to me. If you are—have you noticed any of the newcomers getting radicalized? And did you, I don't know, report it?

I think you might have me wrong there, but you didn't actually answer what I asked—why do you assume I'm Muslim, and why do you think that matters?
Radicalization? Well, I guess I could say... yeah, maybe I noticed about ten years ago that I was seeing Muslims in Chicago who looked different than anyone I'd seen before. Interestingly, I don't really see people like that walking around much anymore. Not because they aren't here, I suppose, but maybe because it feels too risky to walk around like that. But at the same time, I've definitely noticed a way higher number of radicalized Austrians—people who just don't care about the Constitution and constantly lecture everyone about tolerance and human rights, while totally ignoring the Christian values our parents grew up with. These are citizens, so you can't just take their citizenship away, even though they cause so much trouble. For migrants like us, it’s different. I felt like I had to be extra careful, almost perfect, just to be seen as an "exemplary" citizen. People like you and me? It's easy to deport us if we don't fit in or if we get in trouble.
I've called the police a few times, but honestly, I never knew what religion the person involved was, and I don't think it mattered. My neighbor downstairs was clearly hitting his wife, but he could have been anything—could've been anything at all—and it didn't change the fact that it happened. As for reporting those radicals, who are everywhere now, thankfully there are organized groups doing it. But I wonder if it actually does anything? It's pretty hard to identify someone just because they make anonymous threats based on faith or spread hate online. And then there's the other side... whether it's a local or a foreigner committing crimes like domestic abuse or keeping someone locked away, those things are often hidden behind closed doors. I don't know if it happens more with locals or foreigners, but I know there were cases where locals were arrested for holding young girls captive for years. I wouldn't say that kind of abuse is tied to any specific religion, though. I'm sure it happens among foreigners too, maybe even more since some cultures view it differently. It's just sad, I guess.

Sandra Johnson58 said:I think you might have misread me there. What I was actually getting at was your take on why certain immigrant groups seem to show up way more in crime stats than others, even when they’re coming from pretty much the same level of poverty. Like, I guess what I mean is... why would an Arab person be twenty times more likely to be involved in crime compared to a Vietnamese person, if they're both basically fleeing the same kind of struggle?

Unlike you, who doesn't twist things around at all...🍿 I mean, acting like they're being dumped straight into a war zone? That’s just total caricature. Honestly, all they're really looking at is deportation.

The media played along at first until they just got slammed with actual numbers. I mean, if they aren't letting women and kids onto those dinghies, how do you explain all those women and kids being pulled out of boats constantly? Not to mention the huge number of them drowning.
Here’s the first thing Google spat out
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/spanish-ita...an-sea-1554315

just dozens of kids in one boat🤣

Look, I generalize, sure, but you're doing the exact same thing by attacking people who support far-right parties. And hey, you even hinted earlier that refugees would probably help you more than you'd help them if the roles were reversed. Have you actually met every single immigrant, or are you just generalizing too? 🍿

Actually, it isn't that hard to prove. Age tests are reliable and they aren't even that expensive; that's why they're already using them in Denmark and Norway. And again, you're generalizing. How do you know you're saving them from ISIS? Maybe they're members of ISIS, maybe they're criminals, or maybe they're just lost in the woods—honestly, you probably have no clue. Taking in a mountain of undocumented people isn't just a resource issue, it's a security issue too.

I don't know which part of "I don't give a damn" you're missing. I'm not looking for an excuse not to help; I'm just saying I won't help because I put myself first, and they aren't my priority.
I guess you know your way around Lebanon, huh? ☕ If you want my help, the occupation of Lebanon ended back in 2005, but only after international pressure and the assassination of Hariri, which obviously triggered those massive protests in Syria. 🤣

I think I already answered that. I was just saying that when you look at the crime rates in Romania, it really comes down to socioeconomic status—it’s the same for any American or someone from America, if you set aside white-collar crime. Then there's the whole issue of social norms, too. I guess someone coming from Thailand or Pakistan might have a different way of treating women than what we're used to in the West. You see those cultural differences between Germany and America, too. I totally agree, though, that anyone moving here should adopt the local standards regarding human rights and women's rights.

Unlike you, who doesn't twist anything... I guess.🍿 I guess calling it unloading people into a war zone is just a bit of an exaggeration, maybe. They're really only looking at deportation.

I guess some people might find joking about refugees or sending them back to war zones funny, but I don't really see the humor in that.

The media played it down at first, I guess, until they couldn't hide the actual numbers anymore. If they aren't letting women and kids onto those rafts, then how do you explain seeing so many of them being rescued constantly? Or even all those people drowning... it just doesn't add up, maybe.

I guess it's kind of weird to you that they're the first ones to go—the most vulnerable people, maybe? I don't find it that strange, though. It’s probably just whoever absolutely has to leave, so there must be women, kids, and men in the mix. But I suppose the trip is a bit less risky for the men. Nothing too unusual, I guess.

So, I guess this is just the first thing Google pulled up.
I saw this article about those tensions between Spain and Italy over fishing rights in the Mediterranean. It’s kind of wild how much back-and-forth there is, I guess. Maybe things will settle down soon?

Just a few kids in that inflatable raft, I guess.

Yeah, I guess I could've said that too. Like, men running away from the draft and risking those dangerous journeys just to find a safer way to bring their families along. Maybe.

I mean, I tend to generalize sometimes, I guess, but you’re doing the exact same thing by targeting people who support far-right parties. And honestly, that comment about how refugees would be more helpful to me than I could be to them? That was pretty low. Have you actually met every single immigrant out there, or are you just generalizing again, maybe?🍿

I mean, just look at the refugee numbers, then you might see what I'm getting at.
I'm not sure which statement you're referring to, maybe the one about generalizing like those who support right-wing parties.

It’s honestly not that hard to prove. Age tests are reliable and don't cost much, which is why they were used over in Denmark and Norway. You’re generalizing again, though. How can you be sure you saved them from ISIS? Maybe they're members themselves, maybe they're criminals, or maybe they're just lost in the woods—you probably just don't know. Taking in huge groups of undocumented people isn't just a resource issue, it's a security thing too.

In the European Union, given how much we pride ourselves on our high human rights standards, the asylum processing takes a really long time. And yeah, plenty of people take advantage of that. I'm just saying it's a mistake to try and link everything back to religion.
Maybe read the text you're replying to—I wrote "if we saved them from ISIS..." If we're talking about economic migrants, there are different rules for them anyway. I don't think that's even the topic here, since nobody seems to be disputing that, from what I can tell.

I don't get which part of that you're struggling with. I'm not looking for an excuse not to help them; I just won't help because I put myself first, and they aren't my priority.

There’s no law forcing you to help, so you have every right to be selfish. But even as a selfish person, you still have to respect the Constitution and the law. If that doesn't work for you, I guess you could move somewhere where it's easier to fit into the legal framework. It feels a bit hypocritical to break the Constitution and ignore the traditional values of your society while judging others for doing the same. How can anyone take you seriously?
Anyway, if you don't mind me asking, what country are you living in? I'm in Austria, and as soon as I arrived, I decided to embrace the Constitution and the laws here. I think you should do the same, even if you're writing from America.

And as for some Mexican blaming all Americans for certain historical conflicts, or some American blaming all Mexicans for what happened in El Paso (or any other example)... well, I guess that's just how it is. We have to learn to live with it, but that doesn't mean it's right. Besides, I don't think many Americans have been affected by these refugees in Lebanon.

Sandra Johnson58 said:Why do you keep throwing that stat about 60% of rapes being committed by Austrians in my face? That feels like such a way to dodge the real issue. Like, obviously you'd expect the local population to commit more crimes since there are way more of them around. The real problem is that it won't stay that way soon because crime rates across the board are spiking among immigrants, and once a fifth of the population is responsible for half the crimes in the country, we've got a massive problem—especially since some groups have huge representation in crime while others barely show up at all. You don't see Vietnamese or Arab groups having that kind of representation anywhere in Europe.
I'm really curious, what do you honestly think are the reasons why some immigrant groups have extreme crime rates while others have almost none, even though they come from similar economic backgrounds? Maybe it's some cultural norms or something.
By the way, in Norway and Finland, they've made it mandatory for immigrants from countries known for their "human rights" and great "social freedoms" and respect for minorities to go through long training sessions on the social norms of those societies. And if they don't like it, no biggie, they can just ship them back to a war zone.
Also, going back to that famous 60% thing... those kinds of studies happen all over Europe, but some are detailed and some aren't. You really have to know how the data was gathered before you analyze it deeply. If these studies are done properly, they go into tiny details. For instance, it could easily happen that second-generation immigrants are counted as locals because, at the end of the day, they are citizens too.

There is so much misinformation being pushed about immigrants. In the beginning, everyone was whining that it was all women and children, but anyone with eyes could see that wasn't true. Then they complained they were highly educated, even though they couldn't say a word in a foreign language, and now all the media is crying about how there's a mountain of unaccompanied children. Get this: Denmark and Norway ran tests on those "unaccompanied children," and it turned out 72% of them weren't even kids—they were all over 18, and a decent chunk of them were close to thirty.🤣 I mean, honestly, you don't even need tests when you can just see it with your own eyes.
Immigrants aren't all savages or anything, but they come from totally different cultures with their own set of social norms and rules, so we really need to focus on assimilation and stop them from forming those isolated ghettos.

🤣
What did they do when my house was literally burning down during the war? What did they do while their people were out there looting, raping, and killing for decades in Lebanon? Nothing. Absolutely nothing, because they didn't give a damn. So now, I don't give a damn about them either. I don't owe them a thing.

Well, I already mentioned that the proportion is actually higher among foreigners. I wasn't trying to dodge anything or play it down, I'm just saying it isn't exclusive to any one group.

The issue is that this won't stay that way much longer because crime rates across the board are climbing among immigrants. When a fifth of the population ends up responsible for half the country's crime, we're looking at a massive problem—especially since some groups are overrepresented while others barely show up at all.

Look, here in Austria, crime spiked quite a bit once Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU. The news was all over it, talking about double-digit increases and everyone panicking. But what actually happened? Not much, really. Austria is still a relatively safe place. We didn't kick the Romanians out of the EU or the country; we just tried to patch the holes, even if we were mostly just treating symptoms. If we tried to fix every single little thing, I guess there'd be nothing left in Austria but animals and flowers.

Quote:I'm really curious what you think causes certain immigrant groups to have such extreme crime rates while others, coming from similar economic backgrounds, have almost none. Maybe it's just certain cultural norms? Crime rates usually have more to do with socio-economic status than actual social norms. There's plenty of data showing that an unemployed Austrian without an education who's struggling to get by is just as likely to turn to crime as a Romanian in that exact same spot. But, obviously, there are just many more Romanians in those tough situations, so they end up making up a larger number of criminals. Then, as a result, crime becomes somewhat "socially acceptable." So, I'm not sure where you got that idea about "foreigners from similar economic backgrounds having extreme crime rates." Where did that come from, I guess? Anyway, I might suggest it's actually the opposite, since the standards locals are used to are often higher than what migrants are accustomed to. With all its pros and cons, of course.

Quote:By the way, in Norway and Finland, it’s become mandatory for immigrants from countries known for their "human rights" and great "social freedoms," and respect for minorities, to go through intensive training on local societal norms. And if they don't like it, well, they can just head straight back to a war zone. I guess you've got that backwards. Honestly, I don't think any Norwegian would ever try to dump someone into a war zone—you might be misinformed or maybe just mistaken. And if they’re trying to explain local customs or rules to newcomers, I don't see anything wrong with that at all. It's not like they're attacking anyone's faith or identity; it's just saying, "Hey, follow our rules and you're welcome here." I'm totally on board with that. Sadly, in places like Austria, a lot of people just don't get it. There seems to be this push to just kick migrants out without even attempting to help. It feels like pure cruelty driven by a sense of superiority.

There's just so much misinformation being pushed about immigration. I guess at first everyone was crying about how it was all women and kids, but even a blind man could see that wasn't true. Then they kept claiming these people were highly educated when they barely speak a word of English, and now the media is suddenly obsessed with how many unaccompanied minors there are. It's wild, really. Apparently, authorities in Denmark and Norway ran tests on those "unaccompanied kids," and it turns out 72% weren't even children—they were all adults. And maybe even close to thirty percent of them were somewhere near that mark. 🤣 I mean, honestly, you don't even really need those tests when you've got eyes. I guess.
I guess most immigrants aren't exactly savages or anything, but they do come from totally different cultures with their own sets of social norms. Maybe we just need to focus more on assimilation so they don't end up stuck in ghettos.

I guess I don't know which news outlets you've been watching, but I honestly haven't seen anything about it being all women and children... that would be pretty weird, right? Who in their right mind would let their wife and kids cross the Mediterranean in a rubber dinghy? And the idea that everyone is highly educated or some kind of angel... maybe you're making the mistake of generalizing again. I'm really against any kind of sweeping generalizations because they just dull your mind. It’s like how people make those extreme assumptions about groups in the US—saying every single person belongs to one specific radical faction. They just don't.

Yeah, they’re definitely lying about their ages. It's pretty hard to prove otherwise, and I guess you can't really be surprised that people will do whatever it takes to make life better, especially just to survive. Like, if they say they're 16 when they've actually been smuggling themselves into Austria for two years... well, it is what it is. If we saved their lives by getting them out of the clutches of ISIS, the FSA, or Assad, then that seems like a tiny price to pay compared to the actual problems we're dealing with here in Austria.

What did they even do when my house was burning down during the war? What did they do while their people were out there looting, raping, and killing across Lebanon for decades? Nothing, I guess. They just didn't give a damn, so maybe I shouldn't either. I don't owe them anything.

There you go again with that "them" talk. I mean, they’re mostly just trying to escape ISIS and Assad and stuff like that. If you were running from an occupier in Syria, you'd probably treat people a lot better than how you're acting toward them right now. And honestly, saying you won't help because some of them might have done bad things in Lebanon forty years ago? It just doesn't feel very convincing, sorry. I guess you're just looking for any excuse not to help, especially since you know they haven't actually done anything to you. Not sure who you're trying to convince.

Scott Rodriguez19 said:Then why on earth weren't you fighting against those very same root causes back when people were first facing these issues at their front doors?

Well, I have, which is why I keep bringing up things like wars, special interests, the arms industry, politics, and how wealth and resources are split up... I guess only someone really narrow-minded would claim the problem is just about someone having the "wrong" race or religion.

"I guess maybe..."

Scott Rodriguez19 said:When I brought up Turkey to you earlier, you basically told me you didn't care what was happening over there.
Most voters focus on what's happening in their own backyard first before looking at the big picture—so, I guess it's perfectly logical why you think the Republican Party is gaining ground🙂.

No, I didn't say that, please don't make things up. Regarding what you said about how things work in Turkey, I already gave you my answer:

Maybe I guess we could just say...

I don't really know much about Turkey, so if that's your benchmark, maybe you should just move there. I guess my main focus is on democracy and freedom, so it's pretty clear we aren't exactly on the same page.

It’s honestly kind of funny when people try to argue, like, "Why should we give minorities rights if they don't even allow anything in Saudi Arabia?" I guess I just can't stand anyone who tries to force us to follow the standards of a place like Saudi Arabia. And I mean, Turkey has such massive issues with democracy and human rights too, so I don't really see the point in using them as a benchmark for what we want our society to look like. I suppose people coming from those kinds of cultures also need to adapt their views on things like laws and human rights to fit into the country they're living in—not that anyone's ever actually argued against that. The real problem, though, is how we're losing the presumption of innocence and labeling people before they've even done anything. It feels like the twilight of Western civilization, and maybe it's more our own fault than the fault of someone fleeing Aleppo.

Every voter looks at what's happening right in their own backyard first before looking elsewhere, I guess. It makes sense why the Republican Party is gaining ground, maybe.🙂.

I guess I totally see why the Republican Party is gaining ground. It feels like they’ve managed to get people to just tune everything out, which is kind of sad because those folks are victims themselves, I suppose. Personally, I really root for a society where everyone stays informed and realizes that what happens out in the world actually impacts what happens right at home. We should probably be looking at the actual causes instead of just reacting to the symptoms, maybe.

Chris Chase5 said:I personally know of two sexual assaults that never even made the news... so I’m seeing the cover-ups firsthand. Once Hofer wins and the Republican Party gets close to taking control of Parliament, you can bet all those "tree rapes" will suddenly start appearing in the headlines...

It honestly just amuses me how my fellow Austrians act so shocked by this growing sense of insecurity—and by the stories they hear (which stay out of the newspapers). We are heading straight into a disaster, and my only real sympathy is for the innocent people who didn't deserve any of this. Every single advocate for uncontrolled immigration should try living with ten random immigrants in their own apartment for a while. They should have children—at least one girl—who aren't allowed to be fully embraced or wander out between 8 and 10 at night, and then we can see how long it takes before she loses her innocence against her will...

It’s just sad how little common sense and observation is actually being used these days... it's very similar to the transgender nonsense going on in America....

Sorry, but just give me one single reason why CNN or any local news outlet would cover up an incident involving migrants. They actually put migrant incidents right on the front page, whereas cases like this get buried way in the back of the paper:

http://www.nachrichten.at/oberoester...n;art4,2230538

It's honestly kind of funny to me how my fellow Austrians are freaking out over rising insecurity—and all the stories they hear (that aren't in the papers). We're heading into a mess, and I just feel bad for the innocent people who didn't deserve this. I guess everyone pushing for uncontrolled immigration should have ten random immigrants living in their apartment, or have kids (at least one girl) who don't need to be fully embraced and are out between 8 and 10 PM, then we'll see how long it takes before she isn't a virgin anymore....

Well, if you can't see past your own apartment building, I guess it makes sense why you wouldn't bother looking at causes and consequences, or things that play right into Isa's hands. Though, I don't really get the connection to sexual assaults if it's true that over 60% of sex offenders are Austrian. To me, it seems totally reasonable that people are worried when they see an unfamiliar culture right outside their door. But it's not right to just turn off your brain and do exactly what Isa wants us to do. It's not right to shrink your whole world down to a few square feet and not "bother" with the big picture.

It's sad how much common sense and observation isn't being used... kind of like that transgender stuff in America....

Interesting, because that's exactly what I "accuse" Republican Party voters of—acting like they don't understand why refugees arrived in the first place, or thinking that not all Jewish people are enemies of Germany or that all refugees are uncultured savages.

So, I guess I'll ask you again—what have you actually done to provide even a little bit of mental support to the biggest victims of this IS chaos? It’s always easiest to kick those who are weak and innocent.

Carol Newman2 said:New Poll Results:


Party preference:



http://www.cnn.com/politics/polling-data/235248837

Man, Austria and their polls 😵
I guess I don't know if they tweaked this one after that huge recent disaster.

BTW, some pollster actually called me earlier, and I told them I’d be voting for Hofer. I figured, hey, if I'm not getting paid for my opinion, I might as well try to sway things a little bit. 😁

Sandra Johnson58 said:Yeah, my bad, I totally missed that I messed up what I wrote.

Look, when I say not everyone is the same, I’m talking about cultural differences too. It’s not like every immigrant group has the exact same crime rates; that stuff varies a ton. A big part of it is just tied to where they’re coming from and the whole social structure of their home countries. You shouldn't lump everyone together—that's obviously wrong—but we still have to deal with crime within certain minorities instead of just sweeping it under the rug. That’s what happened with all those different attacks across Europe during New Year's. I mean, look at Sweden. There was this one festival in Stockholm where young women were being harassed and even raped for years, and they basically covered it up because they were terrified it would trigger some kind of anti-immigrant backlash.🤣So now we’re looking at a situation where the Republicans are actually leading the polls. Honestly, when you try to cover up the truth like this, you’re basically just handing a massive megaphone to xenophobes and racists. It gives them all the ammo they need to push their version of reality—which usually boils down to "they're all the same"—and then you end up making them look like heroes just because they're standing up to the establishment. These kinds of parties used to be stuck on the fringes, you know? Back when you could actually say what you were thinking—like pointing out that certain immigrant groups aren't really integrating, aren't working, or have disproportionately high crime rates relative to their population size. But today? If you even mention that, people immediately start screaming "racism" and "xenophobia." Like, seriously. In places like Sweden, there's stuff like 80% of the Somali community being unemployed, but you can't even bring that up because apparently, it's too hurtful to their feelings. I guess that's just how it works now.

Yeah, for sure they aren't all the same—I feel like I'm always mentioning that, too. There are definitely big cultural gaps sometimes, which I guess could lead to issues. But we have our own laws here and everyone's supposed to follow them, so I don't really think anyone is actually challenging that.

I don't know much about cover-ups happening in Austria, I guess. The police are pretty close with the Republican Party anyway, and it seems like it would be tough to hide anything in the legal system. I’m all for transparency, though that usually means the media needs to actually report things objectively. There are over 800 rapes in Austria every year, and more than 60% are committed by Austrians—even if foreigners get all the attention per capita. The issue is that nobody writes about a rape committed by an Austrian because it doesn't interest anyone, but everyone in Austria knows when it's someone from Iraq.

I don't know much about Sweden, but I find it hard to believe an executive in Austria would really withhold info just to avoid hurting someone's feelings. Though, I guess it might make sense if they were trying to prevent actual chaos or mob mentality. Their main job is keeping the peace, not managing emotions, so maybe that applies to Sweden too? Either way, the police have to process crimes and file reports—that part shouldn't be flexible at all. But when it comes to what they tell the public, I suppose they have to prioritize public order over people's curiosity. People will probably never agree on where that line should be drawn.

I guess I’m all for total transparency and being objective, but like, it really has to be consistent across the board.

I guess the issue with politicians is that most of them, regardless of their party, tie their whole careers to specific issues they can't even control. It makes objectivity pretty much impossible, I suppose. You end up with one side blowing things out of proportion while the other tries to sweep everything under the rug. That’s probably why you can't really trust them too much. Personally, I don't defend any of them; I just tend to push back against any policy rooted in racism or hate, because history shows us exactly where that path leads.

Sandra Johnson58 said:I'm honestly just wondering how you jumped from "people in MY area are starting to lean toward the damn National Front because they hate being associated with a certain group causing issues" to "so you must support these extreme parties." Like, wow. Thank God I'm not that narrow-minded, because I know most immigrants are just decent, regular people. Honestly, you're making a huge mistake right out of the gate by assuming all immigrants are the same thing. They aren't some giant, identical blob. There’s actually a massive amount of intolerance between different groups within immigrant communities too, if you think about it.

What do you mean by "my area"? Like, the Middle East and Afghanistan?
Sorry about the typo, my bad.

By the way, you're making the mistake of thinking all immigrants are the same and should be treated as one big group, which isn't true. Immigrants aren't a monolith, and you can't treat them that way since there's so much tension between different groups with immigrant backgrounds.

?!
I guess I've been saying all along that they aren't all the same, and that the 99% shouldn't be judged because of the 1% causing issues. Maybe you just missed that part.

Sandra Johnson58 said:Parties like the Republican Party, the National Front, the AFD, or the Social Democrats are just gonna keep gaining ground as long as the European Union keeps trying to force this failed version of multiculturalism down everyone's throats. It’s like they’re actively trying to push anyone with a different opinion or anyone questioning the EU’s immigration policies to the fringes. Honestly, there's zero culture of actual dialogue happening, which just plays right into the hands of these parties. They end up looking like heroes because they’re supposedly telling the "hard truths" and fighting against the establishment. I mean, it’s no surprise that even the National Front is seeing more support from immigrants—even those coming from the Middle East—because, let's be real, the average person is sick and tired of being lumped in with that tiny minority of troublemakers. It's exhausting. Look at Sweden, where groups like Tommy Deogan's crowd are actually siding with their Social Democrats... that alone should be a massive wake-up call to the people in power that something is seriously broken. Right now, these mainstream, cookie-cutter parties can still hold these extreme groups back by forming these weird, unnatural coalitions between traditional political enemies. But if they keep going down this path? Eventually, they won't be able to control it anymore, and then everything is just gonna go south fast.

So, you don't see an issue with being associated with the troublemakers? And you aren't doing anything about it? Not really—you're basically just siding with the majority against a problematic minority. We all love pointing fingers at politicians, but we rarely do the actual work needed to stop things from falling apart. It feels like history repeating itself, where people get blamed for things they can't control, and then once the chaos settles, everyone will just claim they had nothing to do with it.

Scott Rodriguez19 said:It’s not harmful—I mean, since when has democracy ever been harmful?
I guess I don't really see any radicalization happening. Maybe I just see a bunch of voters who feel let down by the current establishment and feel like their trust was misplaced.
I'm not quite sure what you think is wrong with society getting more extreme on all sides, though.

We’re looking at a cycle where one kind of radicalism just feeds into the next. It feels pretty natural, so I wouldn't call it "bad" per se. I suppose the Republican Party knows this well, which is why I figured they wouldn't mind ISIS radicalism—they might even cheer it on because it helps them get votes. Whether that stuff is actually good for the country doesn't seem to matter to them. They’ll probably say it's bad for society, but I think they’re doing everything they can to make sure it works in their favor.
It seems like maybe you're making a similar point, acting like ISIS radicalism isn't an issue just to use it as a tool for your own political goals, much like the Republican Party does.
If that's the case, I guess we can't really have a productive talk, because I see that radicalism as a link in a chain we need to break, while you seem to view it as a valid way to get things done.

I don't necessarily want the Republican Party to be strong; I just want the coalitions currently in power to lose. Since those groups teamed up just to split power rather than actually helping people, I guess the nationalists are the only option left. It’s not that I support the Republican Party—I actually wasn't a fan back during the Jörg Haider days. But I suppose they're a lesser evil compared to what the European Union bureaucracy is planning for us. 🙂

My only real worry is that if the Republican Party takes over, they'll just end up being corrupt. We've seen enough history to know they and corruption tend to get along.

Well, I hope they just stop at corruption. Last time populists and nationalists took over in certain parts of Europe (because the moderates messed up), millions died. I guess politics built on racism just can't have a positive outcome. It’s weird how we haven't learned that lesson yet.

dustymarlin10 said:So much for that whole German altruism thing...

they aren't actually bringing refugees in because they're being selfless, it's all just about their own interests, isn't it?

True, but I suppose you have to admit they’re at a high enough level of civilization for stuff like that to even work. Maybe all that talk about altruism is just needed to connect with people who don't really get the numbers, which is fine, I guess.

rowdypilot19 said:I mean, I just crunched the numbers myself, and honestly? The ratio seems fine, though the raw figures look a bit higher than expected... I guess what I'm trying to get at is that we really need to be looking at this from both sides of the coin.

And look, those people who just don't want to put in the work? They're just as much of a drain. 😁

Yeah, I think the figures are probably higher too, but my point is that Germany is in a spot where it’d actually be easy and even profitable to just bundle up their excess cash and mail it over to Sriji. Most of the money spent there will likely end up right back in Germany anyway, buying German goods or materials for reconstruction, so either way—they can't really lose. At least with how things are right now, I guess.

rowdypilot19 said:It really just depends on how you look at it, I guess... on one hand, you’ve got this massive gap where the European Union is missing something like 6 or 7 million workers, but then, if you flip the perspective, there are suddenly 10 million people who are basically surplus. 🍿

A surplus of 10 million... out of how many people? Maybe 505 million? I guess it's hard to say how many of those 10 million actually want to work, but obviously, a big part of it comes down to supply and demand just not lining up.
I mean, overall, interest rates are at 0%, exports are beating imports, and there's labor available... so, maybe creating low-paying jobs is more about political will than the market, since from the government's view, it's basically free labor.

Charles Ramos7 said:If that's the case, this whole thread is pointless. The OP seems unnecessarily worried about nothing.☕

I'm not really sure why the OP even started this discussion. Usually, this kind of stuff comes from those far-right websites claiming "immigrants are stealing our jobs," which seems like a red flag. It looks like they just linked to a six-month-old article outlining Marine Le Pen's talking points without adding any actual expert analysis or logic. So, maybe we shouldn't take the OP's fears too seriously. If those are the same worries Marine Le Pen has, they might matter in politics, but I don't think they make much sense economically.

Regarding your comment, I'm not sure if you meant to pull my words out of context (hopefully it was an accident!), but here is the part you missed:
"I'll just limit my point to low-wage jobs."

Charles Ramos7 said:I might agree regarding the labor shortage in Germany (though I don't quite get why they'd bother with those €1 jobs if they're supposedly desperate for people even at €8.50 🤔), but Germany isn't some isolated island. It’s part of the European Union, so they can always legally hire workers from elsewhere in the EU or just move their production facilities there.

Regarding your first point, unemployment in Germany actually dropped by 0.1%, down to 6.6% (about 2.91 million). That might sound like a massive number, but I think it's just a cumulative figure that covers everything. The bottom line, I guess, is that anyone who actually wants a job in Germany can find one. I'll stick to talking about low-paying jobs since I'm pretty sure those can be turned on or off whenever needed. I don't know the exact breakdown of that 6.6% off the top of my head, but it probably includes people who just don't want to work or can't.
Like I mentioned before, maybe those 1-euro jobs aren't really an option, but more of a requirement for people on long-term assistance. It’s less about choice and more about preventing system abuse, since there are plenty of folks who just don't want to work. The logic seems to be that if you're on social aid and refuse to work, your benefits get cut by 30%. It's meant to give people a way to earn their keep. So, I guess don't let the 1-euro thing confuse you—it's more of a nudge than actual compensation, which is probably why minimum wage doesn't apply. As for your other comment, I think the answer lies in the fact that Germany has been open to workers from across the European Union for years now. And what happened? Not much, I guess. Even with all that openness, Germany still struggles to find enough young workers.

The real question is what happens when the first economic tremor hits—you know, during a crisis or layoffs, and things get even more tense... but I suppose that's more of an integration issue.
Since we're on the topic of the economy, I won't get into all the ethical reasons for helping refugees fleeing German conflicts, or the general idea of helping traumatized refugees by giving them work. But even setting ethics aside, I guess Germany would face a much bigger mess if a million refugees were just wandering the streets without jobs (dealing with crime, ghettos, stigma, and frustration...).

Charles Ramos7 said:We're talking about minimum wage jobs here. I wasn't just referring to Americans; I mentioned Romanians too, and I meant other locals (EU citizens) as well. If Americans won't do it, there won't be enough locals willing to work for minimum wage. Maybe Syrians are hardworking, but the real question is whether they'll all get their paperwork sorted and learn the language...

Basically, Germany is short on workers. They're missing young people because of a huge demographic issue (unlike France, I suppose). It’s become this political thing since Germany is trying to bridge that gap, and they've been pretty clever about how they handle it. So, if we agree they need young labor (we could totally have a separate debate about that if you want), then asking if there will be enough jobs for everyone is kind of pointless. I haven't dug into the specific data, but I imagine the shortage covers everything—from doctors down to those low-paying roles.

From a macro perspective (which is what actually matters), those low-paying jobs are the easiest to create. You could hire an extra 10,000 people just to clean up streets in German cities. It increases value through cleanliness, the state pays for it, half of that flows right back into the budget via taxes and contributions, and the other half cycles back through spending. It doesn't just come back; it kicks off processes that boost GDP and create new value. At worst, it's macroeconomically neutral, but realistically, it's probably a win for the German economy.
The only real issue would be if remittances spike and more money leaves the country than value is created, but I guess the thing with low-wage jobs is that people barely earn enough to survive, so there isn't much cash to send back to a "homeland." So, with low-paying jobs, there's not much risk. With high-paying ones, the math is different because you're bringing in skilled people, so you need a way to turn that knowledge into GDP, otherwise you aren't using their potential and might see market shifts. But I'm sure the Germans have ways to fill those gaps too.

P.S. What I'm saying applies to markets like Germany—a country that exports more than it imports, produces things, attracts talent, and needs young workers. They can, and probably must, make this work.

Charles Ramos7 said:If we're talking about legal employment, why would a German employer pick a refugee (assuming they have the paperwork) over a Romanian or an American? 🤔 The cost is exactly the same.

Are we talking about those low-paying roles?
I mean, there are always low-paying jobs available, though I don't really know enough about the psychology behind them to say for sure. Maybe not every job is one where it doesn't matter who shows up. I suppose a hardworking Syrian might do a better job than a lazy American, or a hardworking American might beat out a lazy Syrian... I guess it depends on what kind of passport you hold. Just natural selection, I guess. And besides, I wonder how many Americans are actually heading to Germany for €8.50 an hour.

BTW, I forgot to mention that 25 years ago, Germany was already dealing with something similar: millions of capable young people who even spoke German were flooding the labor market. What happened then? Well, I guess not much changed, if you ignore the "Solidarity surcharge"😁 .