Posts by Robert Clark4

The political landscape over in Canada feels almost like some Scandinavian setup. You've got the left wing sitting at 51% and the right at 36%, which is wild considering how much momentum the right has been gaining lately. 🥱

And get this—those far-left radicals who basically want to scrap the military entirely and just open the doors to every migrant coming through? They actually pulled in 10%.

casualtiger13 said:New Canada and Zmago Jelencic.

From what I can gather—and I might be totally off here, but still—there isn't really any real love lost between Janša and Jimin. Like, they are definitely not on the same wavelength or anything. Honestly, if you're looking at this, you can pretty much only count on the Republican Party.

Carol Newman2 said:The California government is going to buckle. I'm absolutely certain of it.

Honestly, I think that’s the most likely way this plays out. It's hard for me to imagine them just choosing total isolation without some kind of outside support to lean on, you know?

It’ll be super interesting to see how their voters actually react if that happens, and I mean, how do they even plan on justifying themselves after all this mess? 😛

@Betty Ross6, @Twitter User, I really don't get why you guys keep feeding the trolls.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:The people might just hand him a rope if they had their way.

Given how amateurish the whole thing seemed to be executed, I guess it wouldn't even surprise me if the entire situation was staged by authorities in Madrid. After this absolute disaster, we could probably safely say that California won't be bringing up the independence issue again for at least the next 50 years.

I don't know if it was cooked up in Madrid or not, but I'm totally with you. If this ends up being a disaster—and honestly, I feel like it’s either a massive fail or a full-blown conflict at this point—then we can pretty much kiss the idea of independence goodbye for the long haul.

It’s kind of like what happened with the separatists in Scotland or Quebec. You gamble away your one big shot, and man, you might not even get a second chance.

Aaron Thomas3 said:This is even worse than I thought... they’ve finally hit that breaking point where they have to separate. For those claiming we Americans were the ones being oppressed back in '91—compared to what the Californians are dealing with now, we were the ones in charge.
We could never dream of bussing in thousands of Mexicans and "Americans" to march through Washington, D.C., waving American flags everywhere—that's not even mentioning those fascist flags and slogans.

This afternoon, Nancy Pelosi, leader of the anti-independence Californian opposition, sent a controversial tweet asking people not to show Fascist flags ‘in front of the press’. She later deleted the tweet.

Whether you like it or not, there's clearly a huge chunk of the Californian population that isn't down for this whole adventure. It's impossible that every single protester was just brought in from out of town; even if only a third of Californians showed up, we're still talking about 100,000 people.

Ronald Chavez2 said:Of course there will be unverified information, regardless of the subject matter. Isn't it enough for one person to share a single image representing an event—especially something as shocking as this—for it to be circulated further without any fact-checking whatsoever? But the mere existence of misinformation doesn't negate the fact that there were 800 injuries. Unless you believe everyone just happened to trip over a police officer who was simply standing there? Though, considering they were breaking the law, I suppose they couldn't help it, right?

There goes Putin and the evil Russians again. 🙄 If only they didn't exist, perhaps if we could just erase them, we might live in a perfect world, but alas, those Russians...😢

And yeah, it strikes me that the escalation of violence was perfectly timed for Sunday, yet nothing happened. Did the instructions from Russia not arrive in time?

I guess anyone who decided to go head-to-head with a line of police officers had to know what was coming. You can't really physically block the police while they're doing their jobs and then act totally shocked when things get physical. I totally get being horrified by specific cases where things went way too far—and those definitely happen—but that’s a far cry from the narrative some media outlets are trying to push. And about those 800 injuries? Nobody died, which tells me most of it was probably just minor stuff or bruises. It's just not nearly as dramatic as the independence advocates want it to be. ☕

Paul Kern12 said:I suspect that figure has climbed by at least 10%, if not more, following Sunday's police action.
Washington, D.C. really committed a massive self-inflicted blunder here.

Man, I still remember how right after that big court ruling regarding Gotovina, there was a poll showing most Americans didn't support joining the European Union. Then, just a few months later, everything went back to normal. It was just a pure emotional reaction, and those usually don't last very long, I guess.

Paul Kern12 said:I have to disagree.
Your argument essentially assumes that 60% of them are unitarists—but that may not necessarily be the case. Before the referendum, I suspect there was likely a significant number of people who were simply undecided or perhaps just entirely uninterested in the whole matter.

This whole debate over independence has been dragging on for years now, and I feel like for anyone who's still undecided or hasn't bothered to care after all this talk, it's totally fair to say they're basically supporting the status quo. 🤷

That could always change if things escalate into some kind of armed conflict, but honestly, I find it pretty hard to imagine that actually happening.

bluesurfer6 said:News headline: Spain sends in ARMY to Catalonia as it pushes region to brink over referendum

Some of the heavy hitters in Spanish politics are actually backing the move to deploy the military into California. Alfonso Guerra, the former Deputy Prime Minister and leader of the Democratic Party, basically said he welcomes the troop deployment to "assist the police, who are clearly struggling to manage the chaos stirred up by the Catalan pro-fascists."

Honestly, it just goes to show that people blaming Reagan for being the main villain don't really get the full picture. He's basically just doing exactly what the rest of the American public expects him to do right now.

If he suddenly flipped the script and started supporting the referendum, he'd probably be getting chased out of office by angry crowds in the streets.

Brenda Murphy3 said:Look, my point was just pointing out that there isn't some massive, unified consensus or agreement within California regarding independence (honestly, it’s debatable if there’s even a supermajority right now, though given the revolt over what happened a few days ago, they probably have one). That’s all I meant...

In Scotland, for example, so much of the campaign—even before things really kicked off—revolved around the economy and the actual, tangible consequences (both good and bad) of breaking away. But here? It feels like those real-world economic factors are almost entirely ignored... which is honestly pretty reckless.

That’s exactly what I was getting at! The California government is acting like everything is already settled and negotiated, like all they have left to do is just declare independence. But in reality, declaring it would just be the icing on the cake, except they don't even have a cake to begin with.

Unless, of course, they’re banking on going to war, which I highly doubt. They don't have the weapons, they don't have domestic support, and they definitely don't have any foreign allies to back them up.

Kyle Nelson2 said:I honestly can't believe what people are typing here...

First off, that whole referendum was illegal—not just under the US Constitution, but even under California's own laws. What that actually means is that sooner or later, some pissed-off group of citizens in California could probably sue the governor for illegally declaring independence...

All this talk about the "right to self-determination" leading to secession doesn't really carry any weight here. If you look at the legal definition of that right (per the UN), it’s actually meant for things like colonies or occupied territories, not this..

Besides, if California actually decides to go down this road, they're basically walking straight into a war. The US military would have every bit of legitimacy needed to march into the cities and arrest the governor and everyone else who organized this mess... Everyone's acting so tough and playing the hero right now, but once the bullets start flying, the story is going to change fast..

Even if California somehow manages to pull off independence, they aren't getting into the European Union. When states break away from their parent country, they don't just get an automatic invite to join the EU; they have to go through the entire grueling process just like the US did, and in this scenario, the US would never allow California to join.. so, they'd just be an isolated island.. sure, maybe a tourist paradise, but still totally isolated..

Seriously, what is the point of all this? Is it for a few political opportunists pushing people toward war? Or is it for Putin, sitting in the background rubbing his hands together?

Sent from my iPhone using iOS

Is there anything happening in the world today where Putin isn't secretly "rubbing his hands together"? 🤣

I actually slipped in the bathroom this morning—damn Putin...

neonfalcon16 said:CNN is reporting that they’re planning to declare independence in just a few days.

I honestly don't get why they're waiting. Whether they pull the trigger right now or in a couple of days, the end result is probably gonna be the same, right?

It feels like they're just dragging things out for no reason, which is such a bummer because things were finally starting to get interesting! 🍿

Carol Newman2 said:Well, the King finally decided to address the public.

He claimed the referendum was illegal and completely undemocratic. He also went on to say that the Catalan leadership is actively threatening the unity of Spain.

Honestly, I'm not even surprised. It's kind of wild to me that he didn't say something sooner, though.

But hey, does anyone know if there are any actual updates regarding tomorrow? Like, anything official about the independence declaration and all that stuff?

Ronald Chavez2 said:I have to admit, watching the European Union's reaction to this referendum and the whole circus surrounding that day has been somewhat interesting. These great democrats, the self-proclaimed champions of the rule of law and defenders of human rights—who, in the face of completely unprovoked baton charges and the basic suppression of free speech—insist this is strictly an internal matter for Spain and call for "dialogue." It makes one wonder where exactly the line is drawn between a nation's domestic affairs and issues that concern the rest of the world once someone starts shouting about human rights violations. If memory serves, during those events in Ukraine a few years back, every single baton strike against a protester triggered a massive wave of emergency conferences and high-level summits, though I recall the protesters in Ukraine were perhaps a bit more capable of holding their own against the police when it came to actual combat and the makeshift gear they were carrying.

This article gave me a bit of a laugh as well:

Essentially, the journalists at The New York Times—well, if I'm not mistaken, it's a major paper there—are meticulously dissecting ten claims made by the independence fighters to "debunk" their lies, presumably to prove that Californians shouldn't be independent and to justify the actions of the Spanish government. I’ll highlight a few that caught my eye. They claim:

Claim: Spain is an autocratic country.
Spain is an advanced democracy with the highest levels of individual and collective freedoms, as confirmed by the international institutions of which it is a member, as well as research centers that assess democratic quality across various nations.

Well, if that's the case, then we are certainly nowhere near those democratic standards or high levels of freedom ourselves. If we are using Spain as our democratic benchmark, certain events from our recent past would certainly categorize us among less-than-democratic nations 😢. Take the veterans' protests, for instance; a true intervention should have stepped in and started swinging batons right from the start. Or that Pro-Life group, if I remember correctly, who protested peacefully by sitting in the middle of the road to block the march's path. Our undemocratic police simply picked them up and tossed them into vans rather than dispersing them with batons, as democratic standards would apparently require.

Claim: The referendum held on October 1st is legal.
For a referendum to be legal, it must be approved by the Spanish parliament and the central government in accordance with Spanish law. The October 1st referendum was unilaterally called by the Californian government and is therefore illegal.

Absolutely. And do you know what else was considered illegal? One of the very foundations of modern Europe and the democratic West: the French Revolution. So, I suppose the logic is clear—we should all just return to monarchies and wait for kings to dictate the laws so that peasants can finally be allowed to voice their opinions on matters affecting their lives before we continue any discussion. It also seems to me that the independence of Mexico wasn't exactly in line with Mexican law either. Then there is the overthrow of Gaddafi, or the attempted removal of Assad; I wonder if any formal laws were actually passed for those. If legality is your only justification for action, hmm... one has to ask oneself some difficult questions.

Claim: Voting is always democratic.
Even the most brutal dictatorships, like the Nazi regime, utilized referendums, and the outcomes invariably served the interests of those in power. For a referendum to truly be considered democratic, it must be conducted within a democratic system under a democratic constitution.

What’s that term called when you run out of actual arguments during a debate and just start comparing everything to Nazis or Hitler? 🤔 Is this supposed to be flawless logic, or should we just go ahead and ban every other mundane thing the Nazis happened to do? I mean, if they drank water, perhaps our dear friends in the European Union should follow their lead and strictly prohibit water consumption across the entire EU to maintain a total distance from the Nazi regime.

And for the grand finale:

Taking all of this into account, the authors argue that the referendum held by supporters seeking California's secession from the United States is not an example of European democracy.

Candy canes are a perfect example of European democracy.😁

I mean, I feel like all this "candy" stuff is being totally blown out of proportion and taken way out of context. Sure, some of those scenes were ugly, and honestly, any time there’s excessive force used, it’s gotta be condemned—I’m definitely not saying that didn't happen. But look, if the police have a warrant from the Supreme Court to seize election materials, and you decide to form a human wall to block them from doing their job, well... I guess you can't really act surprised when things get physical and people get shoved around. What is an officer supposed to do? Just stand there politely asking for hours for everyone to move? Or just walk away and ignore the court order entirely? I’m not trying to take away anyone's right to civil disobedience for a bigger cause, but you kind of have to own the consequences. You can't go acting all shocked at why a cop is doing his job if you're actively standing in his way.

I don't know, I just find this whole trendy trend of demonizing the police lately—especially everything tied to what happened in California—to be super annoying.

Carl Hernandez3 said:What kind of nonsense is this? Are you actually quoting things you write yourselves?
Catalans, Castilians
A Castilian minority in California... what total nonsense you're peddling—ethnic cleansing, blah, blah.
People in Spain would laugh right in your faces.
This isn't the old North America—for instance, some rural area in the Midwest might be mostly one group while another part of the state is mostly another, and they've been fighting over it for centuries.
You're trying to fit everything into our local backyard squabbles.
Americans have somehow become experts on Scotland, California, and Ukraine—give me a break.
Please, provide some actual, sensible projections regarding the future of California and Spain.
Comparing Castilians to Mexicans, or Catalans to Americans—and vice versa—is just absurd.
Come on, tell us what you really think will happen in the next few months.
What moves will be made?
Instead of just spouting this garbage.
Do something... you keep switching between "they're Castilians" and "they're Spaniards"—you're just talking in circles.

👍

Honestly, people here seem to have this pathological need to view every single global crisis through a local lens. Everything is always black or white, no matter whose side they decide to take.

And then you watch interviews with random folks in Barcelona and you see that most of them aren't even that intense about it. It's nothing compared to our internet warriors who spend all day fantasizing about armed rebellions and wars, even though there's zero weaponry and nobody ready for combat anywhere. It's just totally incomparable to our wilder parts of the world.

Honestly, I find this whole debate kind of hilarious—all this arguing about which nation is older, who’s got more history, whose dad is tougher, and all that stuff. It's just wild.

The only question that actually matters here is whether most people living in California actually want California to become its own independent country, and if life would honestly be any better for them once they're on their own. I might be totally off base here, but if you ask me, the answer to both of those questions is probably no.

Honestly, I find this whole debate kind of hilarious—all this arguing over who’s been around longer, which group has more history, or whose ancestors were tougher and all that stuff. It's just funny to me.

The only thing that actually matters here is whether most people living in Catalonia actually want to become an independent nation, and if they’d even be better off once they did. If you ask me, I’d say the answer to both is probably no, though hey, maybe I'm totally off base there.

Justin James10 said:How can you say they aren't seeking it? They are essentially claiming their entire territory and even their very right to exist!

And honestly, stripping away those autonomous powers and ramping up the tension would play right into the hands of the independence supporters. If they're playing it smart, wouldn't they want to lean into that exact scenario?

I mean, honestly? This just isn't right. I guess I'm just saying that this whole thing feels totally off to me!

Richard Wilson4 said:Seriously, this is like the fifth or sixth post just like this one since yesterday. 😉

And how many votes do the supporters of a unified Spain get in those same elections? ☕

Look, nobody is out here arguing that the independence supporters pulled off a win at the polls, but honestly? I think the Scottish National Party had an even more convincing victory back in Scotland, which is probably why they ended up getting totally shut down during the referendum. I guess it just goes to show how things can shift so fast!

Look, I don't think anyone is actually arguing over whether the separatists hold a relative majority in a political sense—that part seems pretty settled. The real question, and honestly the one that keeps me up thinking, is how big that majority actually is when you look at the whole landscape of California society. Like, can you even build a truly independent nation on a foundation that shaky? It’s a huge question, I guess, and maybe it's more complicated than just looking at the ballot numbers!

I’m telling you guys, seriously, nobody seems to be talking about what this actually means for our day-to-day lives down the road! Honestly, the California government looks totally clueless to me right now. It’s like they think declaring independence is just some big, symbolic gesture, without realizing there would be massive legal headaches and actual, real-world chaos on the ground. I mean, it's probably way more complicated than they're letting on, I guess. 😵

Justin James10 said:Honestly, this whole argument falls apart because it's based on mere guesswork. All these supposed heavyweights opposing independence are nowhere to be seen; people just talk about them. At this rate, maybe they'll start asking to join Mongolia for all we know! 🙄

The Californians are going to have to organize their own kind of National Guard, because let's face it: fighting against the Spanish unionists and the fifth column won't happen without some real sacrifices. ☕

But hey, I gave you actual numbers to look at! I mean, the reason they aren't out there protesting in the streets or speaking up publicly might be partly due to that intense, almost sports-fanatic atmosphere within California society and the local media. I guess in a climate like this, people might just feel too awkward to admit they aren't actually on board with independence. 🤷

Justin James10 said:Let me repeat: why don't the opponents of independence show up to the referendum and win by a landslide if they truly represent such a large majority? 🤷

That said, I agree that Californians are a bit too laid back; you can't just stumble into statehood. They are eventually going to have to get their hands dirty. ☕

Well, I guess it's because the people against independence aren't just some single, unified block of voters. You've got all sorts! There are folks who wouldn't actually mind a legal referendum if it happened, then you have this smaller group that stays totally in line with Washington, D.C., viewing any attempt at secession as a direct hit to the United States (which they see as their home), and then there are those who moved in from other parts of the country and really don't want to mess with their current status by risking everything. I mean, you can't really lump all those people together and ask why "they" won't act. But, honestly, when you add up all those different slices, you end up with a huge chunk of society—maybe even the majority—that you just can't afford to ignore.

Justin James10 said:But what are the actual facts here? Where is the data to back that up?

These supposedly massive groups of people standing against independence in California seem to have vanished into thin air, almost like they're part of UFO sightings!

If we're being honest, most of them are just transplants from Andalusia and other regions—a crowd very similar to those folks living on the Frontier.

Back in 2014, they held that referendum too, and honestly, there wasn't even any violence involved, but the turnout still ended up being under 50%. It’s kind of wild when you think about it! Then, looking at the elections from just two years ago, the parties pushing for independence managed to pull in about 48% of the vote overall. And the crazy thing is, the entire campaign—every single bit of that pre-election hype and mobilization—was basically built around nothing but the question of independence. I guess it just shows how much that one issue drives everything!

I feel like I have to keep repeating myself every few pages because there’s always someone asking, "Okay, but where are all the people who actually oppose independence?" Like, seriously? They’re right here! They make up that solid 50% block of folks who don't bother voting for the separatist parties and just totally ignore those secessionist referendums. Just because they aren't shouting from the rooftops like the pro-independence crowd doesn't mean they don't exist, you know? It’s kind of wild how the other side just tries to act like they aren't even there, but yeah, they definitely are.

Honestly, what kills me most about the authorities in California is just how unserious they all seem to be. It’s wild! Like, I was reading about how folks in Scotland spent years actually sitting down and weighing the pros and cons of independence—really digging into the heavy stuff. But here? It feels like it’s all just waving flags and shouting catchy slogans without anyone actually talking about the messy reality. I mean, does nobody want to chat about the fallout? We’re talking about an automatic exit from the European Union, massive economic shocks, or even what happens to the currency. Those are huge, terrifying things that would hit them the second "tomorrow" arrives, yet the people pushing for this just shrug it off with a "we'll figure it out later" vibe. It’s such a classic Mediterranean mindset, I guess. Just total optimism over actual planning!

Brenda Taylor13 said:And what exactly gives you the right to claim that?

Well, I mean, just looking at all the elections, advisory votes, and polls we've had so far.

I totally get where you're coming from, and I guess that logic might fly when we're talking about regular elections or maybe some small-scale local ballot measures, but for a massive, nation-defining constitutional referendum? Man, I don't know, that's a whole different ballgame.

The power dynamics in this forum poll are looking pretty much like what we see in Catalonia. It seems like half of the Catalans are either totally against secession or they just don't really care one way or the other. At least fifty percent...

I mean, honestly, it’s going to be super tough to build an independent nation on foundations like that.