Posts by Jeremy Alvarez5

Robert Collins2 said:Man, first off, this isn't even a psychology discussion, which I'm pretty sure should be obvious to you by now...

Secondly, all those diagnoses you just rattled off—depression, anxiety, schizophrenia—those aren't some empty voids or some "lifestyle choice" someone made. They are actual CLINICAL ILLNESSES that get treated like anything else. Based on your little theory, it sounds like anyone dealing with this stuff is basically possessed by some demon or devil that needs to be "exorcised" through prayer, fasting, or maybe a week out in the desert or something? WTF?

Why on earth should someone with a psychiatric diagnosis feel ashamed? Why do you self-righteous Christian types feel this desperate need to nail them to a cross of shame? It’s ridiculous. Should a heart patient feel embarrassed about their organ failing, or a diabetic feel guilty because they have to inject insulin every single day???

Honestly, this damn Christian narrow-mindedness and the total denial of blatant medical facts is one of the main reasons why mental health struggles are so heavily stigmatized here in our supposedly "God-fearing" country. And let me tell you something—who are you to judge? You act like these big-shot Christians, but then we see the misogynists, the predators, the adulterers, and the sinners who turn their backs on their calling, their faith, and even Jesus himself... those are the people you should actually be ashamed of. Try lecturing them instead of hanging out on this subforum, because you're far from sinless. Where do you get the nerve to throw stones? 👎

Hold on, let's look at who's actually doing the stigmatizing here.

Option 1:

A person's brain is just wired differently; it doesn't function quite right, so they have to take certain pills for the rest of their life just to stay themselves, otherwise they might be a danger to themselves or others. It's all just genetic mutations and stuff like that.

Option 2:
The person is struggling because of how they view life, their future, or even just the way they talk to people around them. They need attention, care, and help to see where their own perceptions or actions might be going wrong, helping them resolve some kind of internal conflict—which can range from minor spiritual disturbances to much heavier issues depending on the individual.

I don't really get what you're getting at? 🤷 So, are you saying it feels less stigmatizing to blame a chemical imbalance than to suggest someone might have gone off track themselves? Is it just such a hit to the ego that we can't even consider the possibility that a person might create their own psychological struggles and, theoretically, work through them? It’s honestly easier to just say, "Hey, I don't need to examine myself, my thought patterns, or whether I'm at odds with my own nature"...

At the end of the day—who was even talking about being ashamed? If a person is raised by wolves can they really be anything else? Most people are probably just who they are, and they only change when they adopt new ways of thinking, new attitudes, or new perspectives—things that aren't necessarily meds or substances, but just different ways of finding joy in life or hope for the future (even when religion is involved, haha) ...

To actually achieve that, you have to look around, find better examples, ask questions, talk things out, and believe that things can get better... But how much progress can someone make if they're convinced the only cause and cure is a chemical imbalance in the brain? And how can a doctor truly help if they're also convinced that chemistry is the only answer (if it really is)? What's the difference between that approach and just going to a dealer? In the end, doesn't that kind of mindset just leave a person stuck, unable to change because they're being managed by chemicals on one hand, while being told on the other that there's nothing they can do except increase the dose once things start spiraling?

Jamie Patel4 said:I have a feeling your example isn't quite hitting the mark this time. If anything, I think you ended up answering your own question.
The child you found in the woods being raised by wolves—the one they tossed into a psychiatric ward and tried to treat with twigs—is, as you so aptly put it, a child with zero social development. That kid doesn't necessarily have to be mentally ill, which means there likely isn't even a chemical imbalance in the brain in the traditional sense. So, those pills you're planning to overprescribe him using nothing but sticks probably won't do a thing. They might not even trigger a placebo effect, because in that little "wolf," there isn't even a developed concept of illness or healing to begin with.

I completely agree with what Robert Collins2 wrote. Depression is a clinical illness, plain and simple. The fact that it’s triggered by a complex web of factors—and that we still don't fully grasp its exact origins—doesn't change that reality. You can't just dismiss depression as a disease, nor can you blame it on upbringing (though I see why that "little wolf" analogy was used here), unless you have zero empathy for those involved. Out of basic respect for the people who have spent years struggling with this condition, trying to find balance while battling an illness they didn't choose and couldn't prevent through parenting, one should stop denying its existence.
Don't you think most people would prefer to be healthy and off medication? It seems a bit harsh to categorize them that way, especially when compared to someone like me, who is perfectly mentally sound—though, seeing how atheism is being labeled a sickness around here, who knows... maybe I’m sick too.

Jeremy Alvarez5 As specified by:
The interaction between one doctor or several and their patient is largely nonverbal; you feel it through their gestures, the level of commitment, and every single bit of eye contact, word choice, tone, movement, playfulness, or even attempts at humor.

Even perfectly healthy people crave this kind of connection, let alone patients, for whom the slightest sign of genuine attention can feel as massive as a mountain.

Personally, I am someone who takes pride in not letting anyone impose spiritual poverty upon me through baseless arguments.
By my own volition, after careful thought and a studied approach, and much to the chagrin of my queen mother—who still loses her patience when I tell her how I identified myself on the census because, apparently, "that's not how I was raised"!
And as such, I am not standing on ceremony regarding what you wrote, because fundamentally, I don't divide people into believers and non-believers. I believe everyone should have the right to accept whatever help suits them best. Consequently, I expect others to respect those individual choices.

Finally—I don't think a single person here has been advertising Normabel 😉

I mean, I've been thinking about this lately, and I feel like we really need to talk about how people view mental health. It’s like, paranoia and depression... they aren't just "behaviors" or things someone chooses to do to be difficult, you know? They aren't just bad habits or ways of acting out. It's much deeper than that. It’s more like an actual state of being, or maybe even a physiological reality. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when someone is struggling, it isn't something they can just "switch off" through willpower alone. It’s not a choice in how they carry themselves; it's something happening inside them. I don't know, maybe I'm overthinking it, but it feels like we mislabel these struggles as mere conduct issues way too often. I guess when you really start looking into serious illnesses, it’s not just one single thing that triggers them. It feels more like this messy, complicated cocktail of genetics, biology, and then all those psychophysiological factors mixed in too. It's probably a bit of everything hitting you at once, if you think about it. Even even now, I guess... I mean, they aren't even fully explored yet, I guess. There's still so much left to dig into..

So, they haven't really been looked into yet, have they? And you... I mean, what's your take on all this? You know... I guess there aren't really many ways to put it. It's just one of those things, you know? Like, sometimes you just know. So, wait, are we really saying that illness isn't shaped by how someone was raised? I mean, if that's the case, then who exactly is the one bringing all this prejudice to the table here? I guess it’s worth looking at.

So, I originally started this thread because I wanted to dive deep into some serious study regarding how Jesus approached things in His teachings. I guess I also ended up checking a box on that census form while I was at it—even though I’m a believer in Google, that doesn't really matter for what we're talking about here, I suppose.

Look, I guess my take on this whole situation—and how I interpret what that guy is actually saying—doesn't have to be exactly the same as what my mom thinks. Maybe it doesn't even have to match anyone else's, really. 🙄 Churches, man. It’s kind of wild when you think about it. Just like how different denominations or even various sects can't seem to agree on what Jesus of Nazareth actually taught—which is probably why everything split off into Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, or all those different Gnostic paths in the first place. I guess it’s the same thing with individuals within those groups, too. Most people aren't really out there making their own calls; they mostly just go along with whatever the big bosses at the top decide. It feels like most of those core beliefs and major decisions are just the result of some massive hierarchy calling the shots. And honestly? A lot of people probably just fall in line because they don't want to deal with the headache of getting kicked to the curb by the powers that be. Maybe that's just how organized religion works, I suppose.

Third off, when I talk about upbringing, I’m not just talking about the stuff your mom or dad—or even your grandpa—tells you like some kind of bedtime story. It’s way bigger than that. I mean everything that basically wires a person’s worldview together. We're talking about those little communication habits we pick up, how we process thoughts, our sense of morality, and all those different ideas about what makes something right or wrong. It goes all the way down to whether someone believes in God or what that actually means to them. Now, don't get me wrong, I’m not saying atheism is some kind of sickness, and I’m definitely not claiming being religious is the only way to be healthy. I guess you could say both can help ground a person. At the end of the day, having a stance on these things doesn't define who you are; it's more about the massive pile of different factors in life that eventually shape how much struggle a person deals with. Content I feel like some religions have this weird way of making people sick just as easily as they can make them well. It’s especially wild when you think about how certain religious concepts actually create the sickness in the first place, only to "cure" it later through psychological submission to an idea or by forcing major lifestyle changes. Take a kid, for example. Maybe they sit through Sunday school and learn that they absolutely have to attend church every single week or even spend time in deep prayer just to be okay. Then, this massive wave of guilt hits them—this nagging feeling that God expects this specific behavior from them. Eventually, the kid starts going regularly, and suddenly they seem happy again. But I guess you have to wonder if they’re actually healed, or if they’re just happy because they finally stopped fighting against those rules that were forced on them by some authority figure during their upbringing. It's like the solution is just surrendering to the pressure.

Look, if we could just strip away all those assumptions—both yours and maybe even some of my own, I guess—about what I’m actually trying to say here... and if we could just try to ground ourselves a bit? Like, maybe stay a little more mindful of the actual sentences on the screen and what they're actually conveying? Then maybe we wouldn't be constantly fighting with ourselves instead of actually talking to each other.

When it comes to Christianity and Jesus, look, as someone who believes in some kind of concept of God, I don't really have an issue with how Jesus views love or how Paul interprets things. It’s more about the whole setup regarding the battle between good and evil on Judgment Day, the way people talk about their relationship with Satan, the stance on sexuality, or the idea that you can't be a "prophet in your own hometown." Then there's the whole thing about idolatry toward temples, the idea that Jesus had to sacrifice himself to "redeem" our sins, and the teaching that he is the path itself. Honestly, I find more flaws than virtues in Christianity, and those were just the first few things that popped into my head....

All those factors—these specific outlooks on life and living under those assumptions—they definitely take a toll on mental health. That whole web of beliefs can trigger psychological struggles. On the flip side, things like having faith in the future or maintaining an affirmative attitude toward others and oneself could potentially prevent those issues, provided this specific religious content is embraced in a healthy way... A lot depends on how those viewpoints intertwine, which can actually be helpful in certain situations. Of course, medication doesn't go around questioning your worldview or how you balance personal versus collective interests and stuff like that.

An atheist can be a much better person than countless believers, I guess. At the end of the day, what matters isn't who someone puts on a pedestal, but how they treat others—that’s the real yardstick. Many atheists actually feel sympathy for those believers who are hard on themselves, as long as they aren't being a nuisance. But anyway, I don't want to get sidetracked again by talking about less important stuff... I hope we don't dwell on that too much, but rather let's circle back to what Jesus is actually proposing. What does all this symbolic language mean? Is the interpretation right or wrong? And are there direct links between these teachings and modern personality theories, other religions, or different spiritualities, etc.??

Jamie Patel4 said:What you’ve written is quite lovely if you approach it from the perspective of a believer, someone who isn't fully informed, or perhaps someone denying the existence of severe mental illnesses classified as clinical diseases.

I will focus solely on the two examples you provided—paranoia and depression.
Both examples are flawed, though looking at your entire post, I conclude you weren't referring to severe clinical conditions (whether due to a lack of familiarity with them or some other reason, it matters little...), but rather "light" versions that might affect the modern individual—things like a pronounced paranoid streak in one's behavior or seasonal depression in people who aren't clinically ill.
Paranoia and depression are not mere behaviors; they are serious illnesses resulting from a combination of genetic, biological, and psychophysical factors, even if they aren't fully understood today.
In the case of depression as a severe mental illness, there is a significant dysfunction in certain neurotransmitters. It is highly unlikely that a patient in an acute phase would be able to simply "realize something is wrong," as you put it. "Wrong"? What does that even mean to you? Or consider your sentence about a person "losing their compass" in relation to these two examples.

Of course, self-actualization is important, and maintaining mental hygiene is vital, but a healthy person will find that much easier to achieve than someone suffering from a severe mental illness caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain.

I will interpret your claim that psychotherapists are essentially "drugging" people in a controlled manner as merely your viewpoint written from a religious stance—one where you project faith and love onto every aspect of life, perhaps unconsciously, while disregarding everything else that has nothing to do with faith.
It is roughly equivalent to me, as an atheist, claiming that the church effectively "drugs" people with Christian propaganda, while ignoring the fact that for a practicing believer, it can be immensely helpful in the attempt to recover from mental illness.

For some, faith provides help; for others, it is a walk or physical activity; some can manage through sheer willpower, but for others, medication is absolutely necessary to restore the chemical balance required to live a quality life. Only then will they find it easier to reach that realization of satisfaction and love you speak of.

Edit: I see > beat me to it, albeit in a slightly coarser version of my own sentiment! Though I am in complete agreement with that version as well. 😉

I mean, I guess we should probably stop acting like paranoia and depression are just things people choose to do, you know? It’s not about how someone behaves or some weird personality quirk they're putting on for attention. They're actual, serious illnesses, and when you combine them... man, that's a heavy weight to carry. It's more complicated than most people realize, I think. I guess you could say it all comes down to genetics, right? It’s like that whole nature versus nurture debate we always hear about. I mean, maybe some things are just baked into our DNA from day one, and no matter how much you try to change things, that foundation is already set. It’s kind of wild when you think about it—how much of who we are is just written in our code before we even take our first breath. I don't know, I might be overthinking it, but it feels like such a huge factor in everything., biological It looks like you might have hit send a little too early there! I was just sitting here thinking about how sometimes the best conversations start with almost nothing at all, though I guess that’s a bit deep for a Tuesday morning, isn't it? Anyway, whenever you're ready to get into it, I'm all ears. Just let me know what's on your mind. I guess you could say it’s all about that whole psychophysical thing—you know, how your mind and body kind of dance together. It's a bit of a trip when you really stop to think about it, maybe even a little overwhelming if you dwell on it too much. I don't know, it's just one of those deep topics that makes you wonder how much our mental state actually dictates how we feel physically, right? Just a thought, anyway. I mean, even looking at things today, those factors still haven't been fully mapped out or totally understood, I guess. It’s one of those things where we think we have a handle on it, but there's definitely still a lot of gray area left to uncover.

So, let’s say you stumble upon this kid, right? Imagine some mother, totally out of it, just leaves her baby out in the middle of the deep woods. Then, naturally, a pack of wolves finds the little guy and ends up raising him. Fast forward maybe five or ten years, and some hikers come along and find him—but he’s not exactly "normal." He’s scratching at the ground, howling at the moon, crawling around on all fours, biting things... basically, he’s acting exactly like a wolf. His social skills? Zero. Just non-existent.

So, what’s the move here? You just lock them up in some psych ward surrounded by people who have completely lost it? I mean, you could try feeding them cooked greens mixed with crushed-up pills—just a little DIY chemistry project to mess with their brain chemistry—and hope they somehow snap back to reality? I don't know, maybe that works in movies, but I guess it’s a pretty wild way to handle things. What's the actual deciding factor for you, though? Like, what makes you think this kid—or even just this person—is actually going to follow any of your orders after that? Or are you just gonna send them out for a walk and call it a day? Honestly, if you go down that route, what kind of medical issues are we even talking about here? Does the person actually have a diagnosed mental illness, or are we just guessing? 😕

Secondly, I guess you have to wonder... is there actually anyone out there who suffers from... Honestly, I’ve been thinking a lot lately about depression. It’s one of those heavy topics that people don't always know how to bring up in casual conversation, you know? It just sort of settles in, like a fog that won't lift, no matter how much coffee you drink or how many times you try to force a smile. I guess what I mean is, it isn't just feeling "sad." It feels more like... nothingness. A total lack of color in everything. You look at things you used to love—maybe it was catching a game at Yankee Stadium or just grabbing a burger at a local diner—and suddenly, it all feels pretty hollow. It’s hard to explain to someone who hasn't been there, so I tend to hedge my bets and say it's complicated, which is an understatement. Anyway, I don't want to get too heavy, but I figured it was worth mentioning. Life in the States can be such a grind sometimes, and mental health gets pushed to the side way too often. Just wanted to throw that out there. If anyone else is feeling a bit stuck in the mud lately, just know you aren't alone in that headspace. Maybe we can all just take it one day at a time.So, you're talking about a whole mix of factors here... I guess what you're really asking is, given everything on the table, what are the actual odds that this person could be rehabilitated? And if we were looking at a path forward, what would be the absolute deal-breakers for their recovery?

I guess this is how I see things playing out. Whether you’re dealing with someone who's just starting to feel under the weather or someone facing a much heavier struggle, the first thing—the absolute most important thing—is for the doctor or the medical team to actually earn that patient's trust. It’s not just about handing over a prescription and walking away. They really need to provide these practical, functional ways of behaving—basically models for the patient to follow—so they can see for themselves that these changes actually work and bring some real benefit to their lives. And honestly? I think the more love, genuine care, and actual desire there is to make a positive impact on the patient, the better the outcome is going to be. You can't exactly measure that kind of stuff with a lab test or a blood panel. That level of compassion, that drive, and that deep belief in a person's potential to grow and become a better version of themselves... you just can't quantify it. Most of the interaction between the doctors and the patient would probably be nonverbal anyway. You'd feel it in their gestures, in how much they're truly committing themselves to the cause, and in that sense of dedication. I guess I'll just say it... to everyone. I mean, if you look at the whole vibe—you know, the way they carry themselves, the specific words they pick, that general tone, even the way they move around... all of it. It’s even in how they play the game or those little attempts they make at being funny or joking around. It's just everything, I guess.

I was thinking about this earlier—you know how some people seem to have this incredible knack for healing others? Like, they step into someone's life when things are at their absolute worst and somehow manage to give them back a sense of purpose or joy they thought was gone forever. It’s wild. It makes me wonder if there’s actually any kind of scientific way to track that stuff. I mean, could you measure it? Maybe by looking at the sheer amount of movement or dance shared between two people in a week, or even just tracking the specific mood shifts in a doctor or a caregiver while they're working with a patient? Is there a data point for empathy, I guess? It really gets into the weeds of human psychology, too. What actually drives us to change how we act? Why do we suddenly pivot our entire behavior? I suppose it’s that constant push and pull—sometimes we're running away from something that scares us, and other times, we're just desperately trying to move closer to something, or someone, that makes us feel whole. It's all just one big, complicated cycle, isn't it?

I guess it’s kind of wild how much Jesus’s whole vibe aligns with what you hear from bioenergetic healers, esoteric types, and even various other spiritual paths out there. There are definitely some shared elements if you look closely enough. Honestly, I feel like actual believers and those "spiritual seekers" would have plenty to talk about, but man, that's probably a whole different conversation for another day.

Just to make this a bit easier to follow; I wouldn't say I'm a follower of any particular religion, if that makes sense. To be honest, I think even Jesus had his fair share of major missteps, just like any other sect or religious movement out there with their own specific ways of doing things. It’s all kind of messy, I guess. On the other hand, whether you're looking at him or any of those other folks who actually left a mark on the world, there seem to be these shared threads when it comes to human health. It’s all connected, I guess—how our physical well-being is tied to our mental state, just like our soul depends on how our body is holding up. And honestly, whether the soul can even exist independently from this physical body we can actually touch? Well, that's a whole different rabbit hole, isn't it?

When you think about experience, the subconscious, memory, perception, consciousness, or logic—and how everyone’s different with all that—it really all boils down to motivation. And motivation is driven by experience. So, I guess if you don't introduce a new perspective, people just end up spinning their wheels because they lack any real insight or interest. When we're caught up in intense emotions or acting on impulse, we tend to fixate on whatever feels right in the moment. It's like our consciousness just shuts out any other possibilities if they seem to clash with what we want. You need some distance to actually see things clearly. Honestly, you almost never see that kind of perspective in the way an American doctor talks to a patient. They just frame the illness within a few specific factors and call it a day; they focus strictly on the symptoms, whether they show up or not, while someone else just drifts along, depending entirely on whatever pill they were handed...

Now, I’m not saying medication is useless. I’m definitely not suggesting it's better for someone to commit suicide or hurt someone else than to get high or use drugs... That's not the point at all. The whole issue here is about the actual approach to treating mental illness, which, if you think about it, is a concept that's thousands of years old. Whether there are parallels to structuralism or esoteric traditions is something we could probably dive into later, maybe.

I wouldn't even call myself an atheist, so I don't quite get why the atheists around here are getting so worked up over my suggestion to discuss a way of handling psychological issues. I mean, psychologists and psychiatrists use these methods too, alongside meds and whatever else, right? Besides, plenty of them are believers, and you even have priests studying psychology nowadays.

Anyway, I won't ramble on forever, but I was wondering if any atheist psychologists here have ever looked into Catholic or other Christian thought to offer some insight regarding the topic I brought up? Just a reminder that this forum is meant for dialogue [presumably 🤷] regarding different ways to look at mental health, rather than being some kind of advertisement for Prozac, right? 🙂

Luke 11:24 "When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it heads for arid places seeking rest. When it cannot find it, it says, `I will return to the house I left.`
Luke 11:25 When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and perfectly put in order.
Luke 11:26 Then it goes out and takes with it seven other spirits even more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.

I guess when someone deals with stuff like aggression, paranoia, depression, or those darker impulses, and they happen to stumble upon—maybe by chance or maybe through 1. connecting with people who actually help by having honest conversations and pointing out the issues, or 2. just working through it themselves using books, movies, or even just observing nature and animals—they finally figure out what’s wrong with their behavior and manage to suppress those old patterns. But once they do that, this void starts to appear where those behaviors used to be. Those things were basically the ego's defense mechanisms, the ways they "navigated" life.

So, if those outbursts or depressive episodes were triggered by certain specific things, and now the person doesn't react that way anymore because they've realized it was toxic—well, they're stuck in a weird middle ground. They've stopped the bad behavior, but they haven't quite figured out a new, healthy way to actually engage with life and other people yet.

To me, solving these problems isn't really about chasing happiness; it's more about finding a way to be at peace with yourself. That's why I think pills, therapy sessions, or just talking don't really do much if a person has lost their internal compass.

Self-actualization is really about having the guts to live authentically. Being truthful means loving freedom enough to accept yourself, flaws and all. In that sense, everyone carries their own "cross," but Jesus, who trusts in God and has faith, says that His "burden" is light.

Once a person accepts their negative traits—once they stop building these fake versions of themselves and stop fighting for status or trying to compensate for low self-esteem by begging for validation from others—and they just accept their social standing for what it is, that's when peace shows up. You start trusting the future, and that peace gives you the space to actually achieve everything. It all kind of starts in the mind, with your own consciousness...

We really need to look out for our mental hygiene. It feels like some therapists mostly lean toward sedating people—which, honestly, is just a controlled way of drugging them, similar to how people use alcohol, drugs, or binge eating to cope. There are other ways people try to trap themselves just to avoid thinking, too, like becoming obsessed with work or some intense physical activity. It's all just an escape from the possibility of love. Real love means accepting people as they truly are, no matter what. People who are totally consumed by their goals or terrified of losing things (as if those goals hold all the value in the world) don't really have hope. Hope is what gives you the strength to believe things will be okay. Faith—including faith that there is something looking out for us, like a belief in God—helps too. But the biggest thing would be love, which doesn't set conditions for doing good. It's about living well without the constant fear of being "short-changed"... "love and do what you will."

John Price11 said:Here is my (admittedly biased) take on the whole situation:
I feel like I'm just going to run into the same wall over and over. Someone is inevitably going to tell me I need to "stop overthinking," or "just live in the moment." If the therapist leans too heavily into religious-style coping, they'll probably tell me I just need to practice forgiveness... and so on and so forth.
Will they eventually suggest that *I* am the actual problem?

Please, set me straight if I'm being stubborn or if I've completely missed the mark here!😕

Actually, I think you might have some biases against psychotherapy itself.

And regarding that whole forgiveness thing; maybe ask yourself what that really implies?

If you're constantly playing the same mental loop on repeat, it means you're still tangled up in those old memories and your past, rather than living in the present or looking toward the future. You can look back at the past for fun once in a while, but when it starts weighing you down and making you feel miserable, that's when it becomes destructive.

If you find yourself slipping back into that same heavy emotional state later on, you're probably just falling back into that same spiral of associations, dragging your past right along with you.

It sounds like what you really need is a practical way to find peace in the moment, and as for empathy, you can give as much as you have left for others.

You don't necessarily *have* to forgive; maybe just try to stop judging. It’s really about strength, knowledge, and understanding how circumstances shape people. And honestly, you're never just a bystander—the way you interact with people, and even just the biases you hold, changes things. At the very least, it shapes your own psyche. Nobody owes anyone else their empathy, but everyone should strive to offer empathy to others. Only the strong can truly tolerate those who are struggling. Psychology deals with motivation to an extent, but sometimes it’s easier to grasp through spirituality, religion, philosophy, or art—and it's much easier to understand for someone who just has more love in them for others. Most people are basically just grown-up children in a lot of ways. Maybe try treating them like your own kids.

The formula basically goes like this:

1. Just never stop working on yourself. I mean, really dive into learning and taking care of your mind, your body, even just keeping your room or your house in order. It’s about improving your immediate surroundings and your inner world—your psyche and your consciousness—so you can actually feel good about who you are. When you're content, people around you are going to pick up on that vibe, too.

2. You’ve gotta keep meeting new people and making new friends while holding onto the old ones. Maybe let everyone you meet kind of act as a little bit of a therapist for you, but—and this is important—don't be that person who only talks about themselves. If you dominate every conversation with your own life story, you'll kill the relationship. Try to value logic and empathy instead; listen more, learn from what others have been through, and honestly? Don't look down on anyone's experience, whether they're a CEO at a Fortune 500 company or someone just struggling on the street.

3. Always be fighting against your own biases. Especially those rigid, preconceived notions about culture or "how things should be" based on some outdated social system. Work on keeping your mind calm, open, and flexible.

4. Toss out the self-pity, the constant suffering, and that nagging disbelief in yourself or in what tomorrow might bring. Try not to let your mind drift off into endless fantasies; just stay present and focus on what's right in front of you. Your subconscious is already doing enough worrying about the future for both of you. I guess you could say most mental struggles come from that desperate, fearful way we view the future—basically, losing faith in things. Pessimism is pretty much the root of all psychological trouble.

5. Learn as much as you can about how nature works. Instead of trying to fight against the grain, maybe try cooperating with the world around you to find your own sense of freedom. And hey, try to conserve your energy. Like, it's obviously much easier to get stuff done during the day than to try forcing it in the middle of the night...

Hannah Nelson4 said:Religion, in all its dogmatic rigidity, serves as the foundation of faith. It acts as the structural pillar supporting everything that drifts away from raw belief and relies on an individual's subjective experience...

Religion as an escape from one's own conscience and God? A very clever way to justify absolute freedom...

Isn't it a bit clumsy to claim religion is just an attempt to exert control over something more powerful than ourselves? Who exactly would that "more powerful" entity be? God?

How is it even possible to bow before God while simultaneously trying to exert control over Him?

"That man," whatever you choose to call him, was God Himself manifesting just to introduce His own laws...

Boldano, you’re just explaining all your posts here. That’s your right, and that’s your truth. I’ll emphasize that: YOUR truth.

It’s interesting how much you lean on prejudice and generalizations despite those wide-open eyes of yours... are they actually open?

Let’s look at where all these posts spreading at lightning speed are actually coming from. Every single day, there are more of them....
Do these New Age posts have a specific source? Can we pinpoint the exact moment this invasion began?

It feels a bit pretentious to try and tear down dogmas without providing any actual evidence to the contrary...

If we look back through all our historical and even prehistoric records, I guess we can see how ideas, ideologies, and our concepts of virtue versus vice have evolved. It’s all just one long chain, really—an evolution of thought. Some people in certain parts of the world were just better at passing along the ideas they figured out themselves or picked up elsewhere, I suppose.

It’s kind of like how a wild boar becomes domesticated; once it doesn't need the thick hair or those huge tusks anymore, it changes. We had that same process moving from early hominids toward Homo sapiens. But at its core, it was this constant evolution driven by thought and learning how to use tools, which eventually led to these massive transformations in what it means to be human.

I don't really want to group all these The New York Times posts together into one big category, because honestly, they don't exist as a single unit. That feels like an attempt by one giant entity to shove everyone else into the same bucket, sort of like how people used to talk about the Gnostics. But there are so many connections between different groups; it’s all just part of the same old story of human history and the flow of information. Nowadays, thanks to the internet being everywhere and everyone's constant drive to make their own lives feel more meaningful, that info moves incredibly fast.

I think you were actually looking for a rhetorical answer to your own question, so maybe you could try answering it yourself. Though, it'd be pretty easy to debunk that using Socrates-Plato-Aristotle. And if that isn't enough, we've got plenty of other thinkers who basically added a divine spark to whatever they knew (or thought they knew), making it a "source" both before and after any timeline you might pick.

redranger2 said:Well, that is fundamentally incorrect. It all depends on what kind of medication is being taken. There are psychiatric diagnoses so severe that patients unfortunately must rely on medications that cause significant sedation.
The drugs used for anxiety, depression, social phobia, or panic attacks are typically antidepressants that don't induce sedation. You cannot simply label people on medication as weaklings who are incapable of handling their problems. For many, these medications are exactly what allows them to reintegrate into society and live alongside healthy individuals on equal footing. It is quite another matter if someone is abusing anxiolytics, but even those individuals need help finding a way out, as they clearly cannot endure the weight of their symptoms when they resort to that. One ought to show a bit more empathy; judging is always the easiest path.

Furthermore, isn't it true that all pills essentially treat consequences? Are there actually any medications that target the actual cause?
Take blood pressure medication, for instance; does it address the underlying cause or merely the consequence? 😁

So, can you actually prevent high blood pressure just by popping a pill? I mean, if we’re looking at it from the angle that hypertension is triggered by things like slamming too much salt, certain physical sensations, or even how you handle your breathing... well, how does a single tablet solve that whole puzzle? In my mind, preventing high blood pressure isn't really about finding some magic pill that fixes everything instantly. It’s more about actually understanding what triggers it in the first place and then, I guess, having the discipline to act on that knowledge. If you know the salt is the culprit or that your stress levels are spiking your heart rate, the real prevention happens through lifestyle shifts—adjusting your diet or maybe working on some breathing techniques—rather than just relying on a prescription to override your habits. It feels like the solution lies in the awareness and the behavior, rather than just a quick fix in a bottle.

What I'm getting at here is that on one hand, you’re trying to dig into the root causes—which can be a million different things—but it would be so much easier if there was just a clear, direct link between what happened and why it actually happened. I guess everything gets complicated when that connection isn't obvious, right?

Look, when you’ve already taken a massive hit, you obviously need some kind of way to fix the damage. But if that negative energy keeps hitting you constantly? I guess nothing really changes. You're basically just feeding the sickness, and honestly, you end up draining your own battery in the absolute worst way possible.

Beyond just trying to dig into the root causes—which I know could be a huge, messy pile of different factors—I’ve really been thinking about this idea of "emptiness" versus "resistance," and how everything aligns. It's almost like seeking a kind of psycho-mental parallelism with whatever is happening in the world around you, just so you can hit those longer stretches of actual peace. I guess what I mean is, when someone finally manages to hold onto that sense of calm for a while, their subconscious actually gets a chance to breathe. It reaches a state where they can function normally without hitting that total burnout phase. You aren't wasting all your energy on neurotic outbursts or being constantly on the defensive, and you aren't losing sleep because you're fighting battles in your dreams instead of actually resting. It’s about finding that flow where you aren't just spinning your wheels.

Awakening

I guess you could say an Awakening is basically that state where you start feeling out reality by looking inward. It’s like, instead of just reacting blindly, you’re actually paying attention to your own thoughts and those physical sensations your body throws at you. The stuff our senses pick up on—that constant oscillation between what we feel and what we see—well, that kind of thing happens regardless of what we want. It’s just there. What actually stays in our control is how we choose to process those hits, you know? Like, how we handle those stimuli using a mix of intellect and intuition before we eventually land on a physical reaction. To me, that act of just... watching? That’s the real work. It steps in right where those old, mindless, automatic reactions usually take over—those knee-jerk responses triggered by even the tiniest bit of emotion. And if you can actually remember the results of that observation, you start gaining some pretty deep insight and... So, I’ve been chewing on that whole "who am I?" question lately. It’s one of those deep ones that usually just leads to a headache if you think about it too much, right? But honestly, I guess my take is that we’re essentially nobody and nothing. It sounds a bit heavy, I know, but hear me out. I feel like once people actually hit that point of Awareness—where they realize they have this capacity to just... be nothing—it changes everything. It’s like, when you finally embrace that ability to do absolutely nothing, you actually create this massive amount of breathing room. That empty space is basically what allows us to actually interact with each other in a meaningful way. Without that void, I guess we’re all just too full of ourselves to even notice anyone else. I guess what I'm trying to get at is... how do we actually achieve real communication? I mean, true connection that isn't just some mindless, automated reaction triggered by past experiences, old memories, or that thing people call "intuition." It’s more than just reacting to patterns, I suppose.

I guess that's how you actually learn to be okay with your own feelings—it’s like gaining some kind of perspective on your past life, or at least that's how I'd describe it after going through those long stretches of Awakening. You end up reaching this much higher level of awareness when looking at other people, too. It honestly just gives you the headspace to handle pretty much anything life throws at you.

It’s not like all those little habits or reactions that define who we are—our whole personality or character—are just going to vanish overnight. And because of that, the urge to reach for pills, junk food, or any kind of quick fix to soothe that specific type of inner restlessness isn't just going to disappear either.

The goal is to get to a point where you can actually make a choice. It’s about reaching a state where you can swap mindless reaction for observation, using that insight to gain real power through action. I’m not talking about someone just sitting there like a plant, totally frozen while a literal wildfire is sweeping through. I mean having the ability to step back from our own lived experiences—from those rigid patterns of habit that end up warping our psyche, then our bodies, and eventually distorting how we see reality itself. Being rational requires breathing room; you need space to actually think, to create some distance. Both the conscious and subconscious minds need that space to learn, to experience, and to grow. Plus, you need actual goals to give all that movement a purpose.

Omnis festinatio ex parte diaboli est, or as they say in the rural parts of the Midwest, the Devil’s always in a hurry.

wiredmoose3 said:...let's try this again..
Regardless of what kind of thread you decide to start, if you’re going to present yourself as some enlightened soul offering guidance—without actually mentioning any of your past experience or track record (which, frankly, matters to me, even if it isn't documented)—then asking about it is a perfectly reasonable question. You took that as an insult, and instead of answering, you just pivoted to being incredibly cynical and dismissive. In my book, that immediately undermines the persona you're trying to project. Look, I have high standards. It’s genuinely baffling how you expect anyone to trust your "expertise" based on nothing but snippets from Wikipedia, sarcasm, and dodging questions. You haven't given me a single tangible thing to latch onto to say, "Okay, maybe this person can actually help me." Post after post, you're just proving that you aren't ready to deal with people—especially not in an online community🙄...or do you honestly believe you won't run into these kinds of inquiries again? Do you think working with people is just easy and effortless?

In your last post, you had the nerve to bring up my method...really??

"The topic is healing without pills or doctors, according to the title. It’s not a topic about throwing your medication out the window or claiming you don't need it."
😕😕

"Learn to discipline your black-and-white thinking so you can actually recognize what things are really about."
Me, being patronizing? So, any opinion that doesn't align with yours is irrelevant? You clearly struggle with criticism—even when it's well-intentioned, in this case.

"Labeling things as irrelevant nonsense"
What might be irrelevant to you is vital to me... so much for having an individual approach.

"Focusing on my person,"
Since you haven't provided anything else of substance?

"You didn't understand, read more carefully"
Same here.

That’s all from me on this thread.
Once again,good luck!

But you didn't ask me anything, either.

Are you seriously asking me—on an online forum where everyone is basically anonymous by nature—to provide some kind of high-level institutional validation? You want me to sing your praises? I guess not.🤷

Besides, if you’re facing a real issue, what are you looking for? Someone who has gone through the exact same thing to fix it for you?

You mentioned that it matters to you whether someone has "experience" or formal credentials to back up their claims. But think about it—what about someone who retreats into a monastery or a cave for five or ten years with people just like them, writes something down, and then people are still debating those thoughts and ideas two, five, or seven thousand years later? If a book like that just happened to land in your lap, written in a language you could actually understand, what would you do? Would you wait to run it by your therapist first to see what they think after reading a few sentences, or would you actually form your own conclusion based on the content?

I get the feeling that maybe, just maybe, your real struggle here is a lack of self-confidence. There are thousands upon thousands of different philosophies and ways to approach life out there, all with millions of followers, and they're all wildly different. Even if I had the endorsement of a hundred Gestalt therapists and five hundred patients who were successfully cured, how much weight does that carry against a hundred psychiatrists pushing a different method or five hundred people for whom a specific treatment failed—or worse, stayed silent because the treatment drove them to jump out a window? Not much. At the end of the day, you're left with yourself, and you're the one who decides if something works for you or not.

The whole point of a forum—whether it stays anonymous or not—is to hash out specific ideas and perspectives. If you have a genuine problem, and since you seem pretty unsure of yourself right now, why not just state the problem? That way we can actually build an introduction to it. Do you agree that insecurity might be part of the issue? Do you want to talk about that? If you have a problem with the method I suggested for mental wellness, then go ahead—tear it apart and find the flaws. Look, there are plenty of people out there with plenty of knowledge and brains who simply don't have the guts to live by what they know, but that doesn't stop them from sharing that truth with others. If you think my occasional cynicism or a typo makes me incapable of speaking the truth, then I guess there isn't much point in us talking, is there? Phew, luckily I picked up a typing manual ages ago and I can touch-type ten fingers faster than most pros. I don't have any fancy certificates for it, but hey, if you need something typed up, I guess I could help you out.

wiredmoose3 said:wiredmoose3: — It’s a bit much, isn't it? — Just my observation from the sidelines.

Jeremy Alvarez5 As specified by wiredmoose3: You don't allow Duhovnjak to be cynical—but everyone else gets a free pass? Imagine a Duhovnjak who's actually too incompetent to pull off being cynical. 🤷 And what’s wrong with a little cynicism? It actually makes the whole thing more interesting—if you ask me. 😁

Since you’re already pulling from Wikipedia—I’ll go ahead and quote:

Cynicism—derived from the Ancient Greek *kynismos*, which basically translates to "like a dog" in terms of its biting sharpness—originally described the specific worldview and lifestyle adopted by the ancient Cynics.

Cynicism today seems to be more of a lifestyle choice than an attitude—a way to intentionally mock someone else's values while simultaneously calling their entire moral compass into question. It’s a bit of a cheap shot, really.
Cynicism can actually be a sign of resignation—the ultimate white flag for the cynic. It’s what happens when you still hold onto your ideals, but you've finally accepted that they're just impossible to pull off in the real world.

People constantly trip up by using cynicism as a synonym for sarcasm—it’s a common mistake. While sarcasm usually boils down to those bitter, dark-humored jabs we all know, cynicism actually goes much deeper—it’s more about a person’s fundamental outlook on life and their core character. Sarcasm isn't an expression of cynicism any more than every spiteful remark is necessarily driven by pure malice.

The quote doesn't really fit—not even close. I suppose I should probably say something—though I’m not entirely sure what there is to add at this stage. The experience of a spiritual person—it’s a bit of a different beast entirely.
The way you spend the rest of this post tearing down science only serves to validate the Quote—it’s pretty clear you don't have much of a grasp on the subject. You’re leaning way too hard on generalizations, which is ironic considering how much you preach about "individualized approaches"—though, of course, you only highlight that when it suits your narrative to create a negative generalization.

I’ve read enough of your posts—both before this thread started and since—to see you clearly have the knowledge. However, it lacks any real substance—it’s all deeply philosophical and likely only makes sense to those who already speak the language—which leads me to one conclusion: you lack practical experience.

Besides, you’re being a bit contradictory—one minute you're all for the pills, and the next—well, you aren't.

Regarding those credentials—degrees, certifications, being tied to some specific Ivy League school or local institution—it can honestly mean everything or absolutely nothing. The answer you gave me could have come from any random guy passing by on the street in Chicago—I was looking for something more substantial—something that actually digs into the granular details of the work itself.

Maybe I took all of this a bit too seriously—honestly, it’s probably my own fault.

Look, this is just my take on things—don't let it throw you off your game.
Best of luck out there!

I think you missed the point, honestly. If you read a little closer, you'll see you're kind of patronizing me here—labeling things with irrelevant nonsense and drifting away from what we're actually talking about. You're trying to pin me down as being against something I already explicitly said I wasn't part of. It feels like a lot of generalizations, focusing more on me personally than the topic, and then throwing out those "one in a hundred" type conclusions. I don't know, there's a certain irony in your approach if you look at it closely. The whole thread is about healing without relying on pills or doctors; that’s right there in the title. We aren't saying "throw your medication out the window, you don't need it." Maybe try disciplining that black-and-white way of thinking so you can actually spot the nuance in what's being discussed.

wiredmoose3
:

The only truth I really buy comes from the lab—you know, when you isolate a specific gene that causes a disease, then swap it out or just get rid of it. Though, honestly, to me, that just opens up a whole other set of questions that are way harder to wrap your head around... Where do we draw the line between someone’s actual personality and where a mental illness begins? It’s like, if we strip away symptoms that actually shape who a person is, aren't we basically changing the person themselves? And I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing....

If you look at it, a certain genetic makeup functions as one cohesive unit, one individual, right up until it hits an attacker. In that sense, the illness was just the result of facing a specific type of threat, and there are plenty of different threats out there. People carry all sorts of different genes; some make us resilient to one thing, others to something else, especially since our genetic mechanisms are constantly interacting with all kinds of external stimuli.

As living beings, we soak up these factors during our lifetime and respond through reproduction, passing that information down to our legacy. So, I guess trying to intervene directly with genes to create a universal "healthy" human feels like a totally unnatural attempt to tweak a mechanism that the human species has used to fight its way through every kind of struggle up until now.

Then there's the other issue: we're increasingly becoming problems for one another instead of cooperating. Since we're social creatures who want to protect our kids, our ancestors, and the friends we owe our survival and happy lives to, dealing with hostility toward other people is this eternal challenge. It's the root of all anxiety, really. There isn't a bigger trauma than being at odds with your own kind, because deep down, every part of us is wired against destroying our own species—it's through each other that we find fulfillment. To try and isolate "humanity" as if it were just a single gene and cross it out? That sounds like trying to kill the soul within a person. After all, the entire body evolved specifically to serve that soul. Maybe the "illness" isn't what we carry inside us, but how we treat each other. Do you truly believe you're completely determined by your genes? Like you can't find peace, or freedom, or act like a decent human being, or even just exist as yourself? I think a human is defined by the ability to listen to one another and influence one another—by how we rise above other species through our love and our courage.

wiredmoose3 said:

I’m from another planet—I don't even have a Social Security number. 🙄 Actually, I am the future. Do you find me attractive? (Bare).

I smell cynicism...🤷...personally, I shudder at those "Duhovnjak" types who possess that particular trait... sigh... (I'm familiar with the Barin collection 🙂)

An Aversion isn't necessarily directed against conventional medicine,

It seemed that way...🤷

Regarding whether I'm crazy, or will be—whether I'm a psychologist, an X-Men, or a He-Man—how does any of that change what I'm saying? In terms of whether it is actually correct, or true?

So why is it such a struggle to answer? Don't get me wrong—your attempt is noble and clearly comes from a good place—I'm just curious about where it all stems from...

So, you won't let a Duhovnjak be cynical, but everyone else gets a free pass? I don't know, that seems a bit lopsided, doesn't it? I mean, just imagine—it’s almost a funny thought—a Duhovnjak who's actually incapable of being cynical. It's a wild concept, I guess. 🤷

wiredmoose3 says:

So, why is it such a big deal to just answer the question? Don't get me wrong, I totally get it—this whole half-hearted attempt feels noble, and I'm sure you mean well, really. I guess I'm just curious about where it's all coming from...

The drive to actually fix up the world around you starts with the individual—it’s that internal refusal to just sit there and accept suffering, provided you’ve actually got enough empathy to care and the energy to move. It’s not like I mind answering people; honestly, I’ve never been one to dodge a question, whether it’s out in a public thread or sliding into my DMs. But lately, I feel like I’m getting asked this one specific thing way too often. People see how I talk and they start assuming I’m some licensed psychologist or maybe some trained specialist from an alternative wellness retreat or a specific school of thought. I guess I might eventually have to add some kind of disclaimer to my bio or something. Look, there isn’t some official authority behind me handing out credentials. What I’m offering here is just... well, it's a mix of lived experience, whatever knowledge I've picked up along the way, and the perspectives I share. It’s why people keep asking if I have a license, which makes me feel a little cynical, I suppose, especially since you could probably figure it out yourself if you actually scrolled down a few threads to see how I engage with topics. It feels like most people aren't really reading closely, but hey, I guess we can just check that off the list for today too.

Look, I’m not claiming to have any official authority here. I don’t have a degree or a license from anyone. I’m just someone who’s been trying to make sense of the world, life, and my own head since the day I was born. Before I even think about asking anyone else to bless me with their "expertise" or credentials, I wanted to offer up some thoughts based on logic, a bit of lived experience, and a whole lot of random reading I’ve done on my own. I figure it’s probably good enough to withstand whatever criticism the experts—or the non-experts—on this forum throw my way. It’s funny, really. You see people like Tolle, who aren't exactly "experts," pouring themselves into new books just to repackage old wisdom in a fresh way. But the second they get labeled an expert, they start handing out licenses, getting pushed into niche corners, or treated like some kind of cult leaders until mainstream psychology eventually decides to swallow them up—provided someone finds a weird enough way to frame a phenomenon as "scientific proof." And then, within twenty-four hours, the narrative shifts. One minute you hear that Vitamin C is great for the flu, and the next, some morning news segment is claiming it doesn't help at all. Meanwhile, my aunt is still catching every cold that comes her way every winter. The "specialists" will tell you there’s no cure for the flu because *they* have the licenses, so they must know best. They’ll dismiss chicken soup as just a "practical alternative" because it lacks scientific backing, even though half the experts are arguing with the other half about whether Vitamin C even matters. I guess what I mean is, when someone actually offers a solution that works, people tend to brush it off because that person doesn't have the right paperwork. We should probably put a disclaimer at the top of these posts. After all, "professionals" don't exactly kill their patients; they mostly just treat them by giving everyone a different diagnosis. If someone actually gets better, the doctor just claims they made a mistake with the initial diagnosis, because according to the textbooks, what they were treating was supposed to be incurable. It feels like a way to charge people for ignorance and reckless experimentation—especially when these doctors are so overworked that every one of those 40 or 50 patients in a day just gets fifteen minutes of being ignored or told they can't help themselves, followed by a prescription that usually covers the symptoms. I'm not saying I'm against the traditional approach. It’s just... man, between the inefficiency, the religious neuroses, the addictions, the aggression, the booze, the withdrawal, and the constant fear people live in, it's a lot. You see psychiatrists leading people into battles just to wipe out opponents, or psychologists on TV admitting they wouldn't even know how to handle their own depression. Then you have people who claim they don't believe in churches, yet the moment their kids hit a psychological breaking point, they run straight to priests—who are often too busy competing with other priests over whose religious concept is "correct" to actually help. Sometimes these institutions are even protective of their own, even when dealing with horrific abuses in care facilities. So, I guess I have to ask myself: where do my intentions fit into all of this mess? And honestly, if I sound a little cynical, does that really matter that much? 😁

wiredmoose3

Keith Jones76 said:Is that really it then... 🤷 I guess...

It’s not like you aren't right. It's just that (in my opinion) you aren't quite ready to call it "treatment" and swap out what we've been doing until now. A philosophical perspective? Sure, fine. That whole 'Holy Spirit' thing, as they say. A way to approach life, or at least a shot at it—yeah, one possibility. But a significant cure? A revolution? ...No.

I mean, is it even fair to call it "treatment" when you're talking about someone who, say, has been on a revolving door of different medications for the last five or six years without seeing any real progress? And even if they *do* change—how are you supposed to know if it's because they actually changed, or if they just managed to flip their whole philosophy or value system during a brief moment of clarity? That system might be exactly what created their despair in the first place. Is treatment just handing out placebos? Like, you convince someone they've been given something helpful, and they find the courage to keep going because of that belief? So, was it the "pill" that changed them, or was it their mindset?

The thing is, I don't want to just talk about philosophical influence here. I want to look at all the techniques that help, specifically those that aren't standard meds or the usual "help" from professionals who have been trained to believe that someone with certain symptoms is basically incurable. Why would we only look for a cure for that kind of "incurability" through biochemistry and pharmacotherapy? If the root of the madness isn't biochemical, but instead stems from how a person reacts to stress, trauma, and the cycle of repeating that trauma because of their lifestyle or worldview, then shouldn't our solutions reflect that too?

wiredmoose3 said:Let’s be clear—this topic is excellent. I’m a huge advocate for anything "natural"—if that's even the right word for it—and I truly hope this takes off. But...
I might be off base here—but based on your posts— Jeremy Alvarez5Is it just me, or can anyone else sense a certain... let's call it an aversion to traditional medicine reading through this?
Regarding Boldano—do you actually have a license, a solid reference, or even a basic recommendation to back that up?

I'm basically from another planet, so I don't even have a Social Security number. 🙄 Actually, I *am* the future. Do you like me? (Barely).

My Aversion isn't directed at conventional medicine, capitalism, communism, Jesus, or Ante Gotovina—it's just about the downsides of any given system.

And honestly, whether I end up being a psychologist or an X-Men character or maybe even He-Man—does that even change the validity of what I'm saying? Like, does my mental state affect whether the facts are true? I guess my take is that in certain stages, there really isn't any other way out than medication. But I'm talking about self-help where it's possible, and techniques to prevent different kinds of mental breakdowns before they happen. For instance, people dealing with neuroses—those issues usually flare up during specific moments or under certain circumstances; they aren't constant. These people are still living their lives, fighting their battles, and falling in love; their neurosis just surfaces here and there. Now, someone experiencing psychosis—if they still have even a tiny grain of awareness left—there might actually be a way to reach them. You could potentially guide them to a state where they can actually listen more effectively, allowing them to slowly re-educate themselves. It's about rebuilding those faulty value systems that create all that fear, anxiety, depression, panic, or narcissism, etc. So, instead of just telling them something is "good" or "bad," you find a way to explain why a certain path is bad *for them*, so they can truly internalize it. To get the "heart" to listen, you first have to bring them to a state where they are capable of learning, listening, and opening up their capacity to receive information...

wiredmoose3

rustyskipper7 said:I didn't bother reading the whole thing; once I saw Wikipedia was being used as a source, I figured I'd just address the thread title and call it a day.
The reality is that using today's pills to treat a cataract is a bit like trying to perform surgery with a chainsaw—it’s crude, to say the least. But then again, it's also true that there aren't any better options currently available. It’s a bit like walking into a room full of savages who are just tearing everything apart and telling you, "Hey, just dig deeper and think positive thoughts."

It’s not really that a better way doesn't exist; I guess it’s more just that you haven't found it yet.

velvetsailor26 said:Posts like this always give me a boost,👍
but the reality is, not everyone is strong enough to tackle their mental health struggles solo; many people genuinely need help, which means seeking out a psychiatrist or a psychologist.
If only it were that simple—if we could just wish the intrusive thoughts away, we would—but it doesn't work like that, it just doesn't.😢

Let’s break this down.

What actually gives "strong" people their grit? It’s usually some kind of skill set. Say you take two people and drop them into the exact same situation—like a trauma or a war zone—and one person completely loses it while the other stays totally fine.

It comes down to those internal psychological processes where that second person decides how to react to reality. Their core beliefs and specific outlook are what ultimately dictate how intense their emotions become. Some folks think it's all just genetics, like inheriting your hair color or the shape of your nose from your parents or ancestors. But if you could actually peek inside the mind of someone struggling—really look at the architecture of their thoughts—could you really say their reaction to what happened is the *only* cause? The devil is in the details. Upbringing is such a messy, complicated thing, involving all sorts of associations and subconscious mechanisms.

So, how do we stop those endless loops of negative thoughts and find some peace? I guess the goal is finding a sense of calm, similar to when you’re asleep but not dreaming.

You find that peace by coming back to the present moment. In the "now," our senses are busy dealing with things like temperature, air pressure, colors, sounds, shapes, or even vibes. But when our thoughts turn negative, they drift constantly into the past or spiral into anxiety about bad things we predict might happen. People try all sorts of meditation techniques, listening to music, or even talking to others to reach that state of stillness. Though, honestly, there are plenty of people who aren't looking for peace or silence at all; they're just trying to swap one emotional state for another. It's like someone who seeks out adrenaline rushes, dangerous situations, or causing chaos for others just to feel alive and satisfy their senses. Different meditations yield different results based on the technique, but do you really need a formal technique for meditation? I mean, at the end of the day, the only real guide is yourself...

Think about an extreme moment of fear, like facing death. A person's entire focus snaps to the present because they have to fight or run. Or think about someone focused entirely on pleasure. In both cases, that intense focus is triggered by something external, and the body reacts automatically, sort of like how your body moves to follow a beat when you're dancing.

Now, when a person is alone in a quiet room in a peaceful suburb, they aren't forced to watch their step like they would if they were hiking a dangerous trail in the Rockies. Because life is comfortable, our thoughts tend to take over. You can still force yourself back to the present, though, by trying to engage as many senses as possible. If dancing doesn't work, maybe whistling will. Maybe try focusing on the center and edges of your vision at the same time, performing physical tasks, listening closely to the ambient noise, making weird little movements, or even noticing the taste in your mouth or the feeling in your hands and limbs. The more challenging the task you set for yourself, the easier it is to snap back to reality. It’s almost like a reverse meditation through movement. Someone might relax by reading, someone else by swimming, another by music, or someone else through traditional meditation where they force the body to be still. But the key is the action. While meditation can sometimes feel like work, movement can suit anyone. Generally speaking, I think the longer a person can stay occupied—whether through meditation, reading, watching something, or just sensory input—the less time they spend stuck in negative thought loops. This allows new things to slowly seep into the subconscious; it creates space. You don't even need imagination; just use your sensors—sight, hearing, touch, smell, skin sensation—just feel alive for as long as you can. Just stay busy with anything. And obviously, it helps if the activity is constructive, like cleaning up your backyard or something. If things feel too slow, or if we're just going through the motions using habits we've automated—like if we aren't really "present" while eating, washing dishes, or painting a picture—then you can try doing those same chores in unusual ways. Try moving differently than you usually do. It isn't some grand wisdom or special superpower; it's just little tricks, small things that make life meaningful. The point is to occupy yourself as much as possible when danger or other people aren't providing that distraction through excitement or love. And when you catch yourself slipping back into negative thinking about things you don't want to dwell on, just notice it. Identify the "trigger"—what association pulled you back onto that path—and make a conscious decision that you aren't going to go there. You aren't going to keep thinking about it, and especially, you aren't going to suffer. You just don't have the time for suffering.

Keith Jones76 said:You’ve made a series of logical leaps and massive oversimplifications here (which makes your conclusion pretty detached from reality). There are so many, I don't even want to start listing them. Honestly, this is the same playbook used by cult leaders, politicians, and people like that.
Good luck to anyone trying to get "cured" by some "holy guide." They'll just be making more room for everyone else.

I'm genuinely curious how your theory would actually work in practice. For instance, take someone dealing with a personality disorder. Give me a practical example—less philosophy, more of a concrete, real-world scenario acting as an actual step-by-step algorithm. And what are the alternatives if this fails? How exactly do you guarantee that people will actually take responsibility?

And, naturally, how can one person effectively process 40 to 50 people a day while remaining efficient? If that's not possible, please suggest the criteria for explaining to people why they weren't selected during triage, and why they won't be helped (since you'd have to pick a few out of those 50).

Look, talking about these things is fine. But we need to approach this like adults living in the real world. That much is obvious.

I guess mentioning the Holy Spirit might be a bit much for what I’m getting at here, so let's just skip that part. Look, I know my logic might be a little fuzzy sometimes and I definitely don't always nail the perfect way to say things, but I'm totally down for a debate. If you've got some specific examples, please, throw them my way—otherwise, I feel like we're just talking in circles without any real ground to stand on. I was thinking, maybe we could actually group certain psychiatrists and psychologists in with cult leaders and politicians? It seems like there are some pretty glaring overlaps in the kinds of mistakes they all tend to make. Obviously, everyone has their own specific style and approach, but even if this hasn't been fully backed by hard science yet, I still think it's worth chatting about, right?

I’m honestly just wondering how your theory would actually play out in the real world. Like, how would it work if you were dealing with someone struggling with a severe identity disorder? If you could give me a practical example—maybe less of the deep philosophical stuff and more of a concrete, step-by-step scenario—that would be huge. I’m looking for something like an actual algorithm for how to act in that situation. Also, what happens if this approach doesn't work? What are the alternatives, and how can you really guarantee that the person is actually taking responsibility for themselves?

I know people who have been stuck in therapy for years and they’re still just as miserable as when they started. Honestly, I’ve even known folks who ended up taking their own lives after seeing psychiatrists. It really makes you wonder... how do these people actually take ownership of their own lives? Anyway, that’s why this forum exists—so we can actually talk about this stuff. Everything posted here is open to criticism, and that’s fine by me. I guess responsibility ultimately lies with anyone who actually wants to step up and claim it.

I mean, yeah, absolutely—you can definitely handle 40 to 50 people a day while still keeping things actually effective. I guess it just comes down to how you manage the flow, right? But if that's not happening, then I think we really need to sit down and hammer out some solid criteria. We need a clear way to explain to people during that initial triage phase why they weren't selected and why we won't be able to step in and help them this time around. Because, let's be real, if you've got 50 people standing there, someone’s gotta be picked, and everyone deserves a straightforward answer as to why they didn't make the cut.

I’m really just talking about different ways we can try to help ourselves out here. I mean, I know plenty of psychologists who have their own massive struggles—honestly, some of them seem more unhinged than most people I've ever met. Their whole philosophy on life is kind of all over the place, too. I guess that's just how it goes sometimes.

I mean, look, I think it’s definitely a good thing to talk about this kind of stuff. It’s important, really. But, you know, we’ve gotta approach it like adults living in the real world. That much is pretty obvious, I guess.

Let’s get real here for a second. I think we should actually talk about specific cases—you know, let the people who are out there trying to heal themselves step up and share their stories. I’m really not interested in just talking in circles about a bunch of symptoms that someone decided to slap a single label onto. To me, it’s about the actual person standing in front of you. We need to look at everything that makes up an illness, which is really just one individual dealing with a set of problems that are as unique as they are. When psychiatrists hand out prescriptions, they’re basically running experiments on a human being. They ask how the person is feeling, then they tweak the dosage or swap out the pills. So, who's actually doing the oversimplifying in all of this? Is it the person digging into the fine details, or is it the professional who declares someone is "sick" before even knowing if they are, and then acts surprised when the meds don't do the trick? I guess it's pretty obvious which one it is.

There’s honestly so much power in those ancient rituals, you know? Like, old tribes that were constantly at war had their own specific ways of cleansing themselves. If a guy lost his wife, he’d just go out and sing some heavy, soulful song to process it. Or look at puberty rites—those moments where a kid actually transitions into being a man or a woman. I guess the sheer belief these people had in their customs might have actually prevented a ton of the mental health issues we struggle with today in what we call "civilized" society.

Because of all the massive leaps we've made in science and tech, most Americans today put all their faith in clinical methods—pills, hospitals, seeing a doctor. But even with all that, the mental state of a huge chunk of the population is pretty rough. I mean, how many people can actually enjoy life without falling into the trap of alcohol, drugs, or all sorts of different addictions and obsessions? It feels like when someone hits a wall, the standard advice is just, "Don't trust your own gut, go see a psychologist or a psychiatrist and get some meds."

Sure, the lifestyles of primitive tribes and the specifics of their wars might seem kind of laughable to us now, but the concept of faith—just having that core belief—has its own incredible strength. When people give up prematurely and lean entirely on medication, which, let's be honest, can act just like drugs by narrowing your perception of reality, they make it even harder to actually tackle their own problems. It's like they lose the ability to find their own way. Plus, if nobody believes in them, and they're stuck in years of endless analysis while trying to deal with everyday life, finding a solution feels almost impossible.

Carl Jung, who really dug into this stuff, tried to use subconscious analysis—much like Sigmund Freud did—to hunt down the root cause of a patient's issues. He once pointed out that if a doctor actually managed to cure someone of schizophrenia (which is often treated as incurable), some colleague would probably just claim the patient never had it in the first place. So, in a culture where anyone struggling with mental health—not from drugs or booze, but from a genuine clash of deep emotions—is viewed as someone who just needs pills, someone to fear, or someone untrustworthy... well, you end up feeding them negativity through every glance and gesture. It just drains their will and their inner strength.

Lately, though, I've noticed more and more people moving away from traditional psychology and turning toward spirituality. My goal with this topic was to share some techniques that focus on that. I’d love to dive deeper into specific methods for building self-control if anyone is interested—techniques that help a person gain a faster, more direct insight into their own struggles, in a way that's totally different from the usual psychoanalysis routes.

Keith Jones76 — I really value your take and all that detailed criticism, man, so just let me finish my thought first and then we can totally dive into the debate.

I mean, even the most level-headed person is going to run into negativity at some point, one way or another.

But it’s funny how some people just let it eat at them, while others grab onto specific grievances and let those emotions just loop endlessly in their heads. If that gets out of hand, you end up in this really dark, unhealthy headspace that's incredibly hard to crawl out of.

I guess the whole trick is finding a way to be incapable of overthinking that much suffering. Some people, maybe through their faith in God or something similar, just don't give themselves permission to sink into depression. Others might throw themselves into work, or they stay deeply connected to their families or hobbies they feel responsible for—that's what keeps them going. It all seems to come down to balance, I suppose... whether a pessimistic view of things eventually outweighs an optimistic one.

People have said just about everything you can imagine about this topic, but it’s pretty clear that our mindset really does shape our physical bodies and our expectations—it carries an incredible amount of weight.

I guess when people are genuinely convinced they're doing the right thing, or even if they're just striving toward being better, that belief alone makes them feel good. And once you start feeling good, your body kind of just does its thing and keeps everything moving forward.

Because of that, I'd say the biggest struggle isn't actually fighting with everyone else, but rather the internal battle we have with ourselves. That said, to hit any real goals, people are basically forced to cooperate or, you know, take things away from one another. So, if someone wants something but feels like they're hurting another person or society at large, that ends up reflecting back on them in one way or another. Since we're social creatures shaped by the culture we grow up in, lacking empathy or a sense of connection to those around us means we end up throwing negativity back at society. It makes us feel terrible, especially when we try to tell ourselves we were just choosing the lesser
evil.

You see people approaching each other with this conscious intent to get even, cause harm, or just straight-up despise and hate others because they can't mold them into what they want, or maybe out of fear or pure envy. To me, the real key to mental health—and honestly, finding that financial independence and a career that actually feels meaningful—is finding work and actions that leave you satisfied with your own role. If you're constantly hating others, you're really just harboring that hatred or other negative vibes within yourself. By constantly holding onto that resentment, you're essentially biting your own tail and getting stuck in this endless loop of negative states.