placidranger said:I think you're missing the mark there. We won't always act the same way. If a specific behavior successfully hits our target, we’ll keep doing it—even if we technically have other options, there’s simply no reason to change.
If that behavior fails to reach the goal, we can choose a different path.
Through enough trial and error, we eventually hit the mark.
Quincy:| Patterns are forged through upbringing, social influence, environment, life experiences, and our own self-determination and prior choices. These patterns are often unconscious—a sort of automatic reflex—but sometimes they are conscious, acting as an automated framework for how we process information and make decisions. They are essentially the mental programs we’ve been loaded with, either by society or by ourselves, throughout our lives. |
You might be stretching the computer analogy a bit too far. I’d argue that what we accumulate over a lifetime is really just a collection of beliefs and knowledge regarding the most efficient ways to achieve our objectives.
Quincy:| Every pattern adds another layer of predictability and determinism to our lives. The more patterns we possess, the easier it becomes to predict our own future—since free will is the only thing that introduces branching paths and genuine possibilities. Every instance of automation or predetermination narrows those possibilities down. |
In my view, you can't predict your own future because of the sheer number of random variables that will inevitably crash into your life. We are free to react to those variables, but we have zero control over them.
Quincy:| When people ponder this, they ask themselves: are we certain that at any given moment we are truly exercising choice and free will... or are we merely acting out how we were programmed to act? |
Both. Our biological makeup provides the capacity for free will. The thinking process itself isn't predetermined; it consists of a sequence of spontaneously generated thoughts that we can then evaluate and judge. In that evaluation, we effectively exercise our free will.
Quincy:| Free will is the hallmark of life and consciousness—the supposed line in the sand between us and our machines. Without it, we’re nothing more than sophisticated biological engines. It makes you wonder if we're even truly living at all. |
Personally, I think we are machines—just the kind where the design actually allows for free will.
It seems kind of pointless, I guess—trying to hunt for some sort of error or flaw in something that’s really just a person's own private thoughts. It’s all pretty subjective, isn't it? 🙂 I guess what else we should probably consider is just how many variables are actually at play here. It’s crazy how one tiny little thing can completely shift the scales for us. Take something simple, like if someone walks up to me asking for a few bucks—spare change, you know? Sometimes I’ll dig into my pocket and help them out, sometimes I won't. But I wouldn't say it's purely random, either. There's a bit of determinism there, I suppose. My decision really hinges on my gut feeling about whether that person is actually being honest or if they're just playing me. And, well, there are a dozen different factors influencing how I perceive their sincerity in that moment. But then—and this is where the free will argument kicks in—if I were truly, completely free, I might look at someone, decide they’re genuinely struggling and being totally upfront, and still choose not to give them a single cent. Not because of who they are, but just because I'm simply not in the mood to part with my cash that day. I'm not saying that's how I always act or anything—it's just a way to illustrate the whole tug-of-war between determinism and free will.
placidranger said:I think you're missing the mark there. We won't always act the same way. If a specific behavior successfully hits our target, we’ll keep doing it—even if we technically have other options, there’s simply no reason to change.
If that behavior fails to reach the goal, we can choose a different path.
Through enough trial and error, we eventually hit the mark.
Quincy:| Patterns are forged through upbringing, social influence, environment, life experiences, and our own self-determination and prior choices. These patterns are often unconscious—a sort of automatic reflex—but sometimes they are conscious, acting as an automated framework for how we process information and make decisions. They are essentially the mental programs we’ve been loaded with, either by society or by ourselves, throughout our lives. |
You might be stretching the computer analogy a bit too far. I’d argue that what we accumulate over a lifetime is really just a collection of beliefs and knowledge regarding the most efficient ways to achieve our objectives.
Quincy:| Every pattern adds another layer of predictability and determinism to our lives. The more patterns we possess, the easier it becomes to predict our own future—since free will is the only thing that introduces branching paths and genuine possibilities. Every instance of automation or predetermination narrows those possibilities down. |
In my view, you can't predict your own future because of the sheer number of random variables that will inevitably crash into your life. We are free to react to those variables, but we have zero control over them.
Quincy:| When people ponder this, they ask themselves: are we certain that at any given moment we are truly exercising choice and free will... or are we merely acting out how we were programmed to act? |
Both. Our biological makeup provides the capacity for free will. The thinking process itself isn't predetermined; it consists of a sequence of spontaneously generated thoughts that we can then evaluate and judge. In that evaluation, we effectively exercise our free will.
Quincy:| Free will is the hallmark of life and consciousness—the supposed line in the sand between us and our machines. Without it, we’re nothing more than sophisticated biological engines. It makes you wonder if we're even truly living at all. |
Personally, I think we are machines—just the kind where the design actually allows for free will.
If free will actually exists—and that’s a big "if," I guess—then the future isn't some pre-written script. It isn't determined. And if things aren't determined, then there isn't just one single possible future waiting to be predicted, right? But... there is this concept—maybe we could call it the collapse of possibilities into one—where a specific outcome becomes pretty much unavoidable. It’s a bit of a cliché, I know, but think about it like this: imagine you’re standing on a sidewalk in Chicago, and you realize you're maybe only a yard away from a semi-truck barreling toward you at seventy miles per hour. At that point, the impact becomes an inevitability. It doesn't really matter what the driver's free will is, or even yours, at that exact microsecond. The sheer amount of determinism involved in that situation is what turns a "possible" future into a certainty once you get close enough to the event.
So, I guess the takeaway here is that the future isn't entirely a complete mystery—it’s actually somewhat predictable. You have your set probabilities, certain things that could happen, and then you have those inevitable events that just seem destined to occur eventually. It's all a bit of a balancing act, really.
The other thing—and this is where it gets messy—is that we could be dealing with a completely deterministic system that’s just impossible to actually predict. It’s not that it isn't following rules, it's just that it's too damn complex. I mean, we aren't exactly in a position to isolate every single variable or pin down everything moving at once... it's basically just deterministic chaos. There's a huge difference between whether something *could* theoretically be done and whether we actually *can* do it. I guess that's the real question, right? Whether we have the capacity to even attempt it. 😉
I’ve been thinking—maybe just a late-night tangent, I guess—that there might be some kind of model of possibilities existing somewhere outside the boundaries of the reality we actually live in. It’s almost like a simulation of every single potential outcome... sort of a cosmic blueprint, if you will. And if someone could somehow slip past the edges of our perceived reality, they might be able to look out and see all those different paths laid out before them. Then there's the other side of it—the idea that there might be a "most likely" future already mapped out. You know, based on the choices we're making right now, if we just keep riding these current tracks without veering off. It feels like a predetermined destination that becomes inevitable unless, I don't know, free will manages to catch that one specific moment needed to pivot and change everything. Or maybe I'm just overthinking it.
placidranger said:I think you're missing the mark there. We won't always act the same way. If a specific behavior successfully hits our target, we’ll keep doing it—even if we technically have other options, there’s simply no reason to change.
If that behavior fails to reach the goal, we can choose a different path.
Through enough trial and error, we eventually hit the mark.
Quincy:| Patterns are forged through upbringing, social influence, environment, life experiences, and our own self-determination and prior choices. These patterns are often unconscious—a sort of automatic reflex—but sometimes they are conscious, acting as an automated framework for how we process information and make decisions. They are essentially the mental programs we’ve been loaded with, either by society or by ourselves, throughout our lives. |
You might be stretching the computer analogy a bit too far. I’d argue that what we accumulate over a lifetime is really just a collection of beliefs and knowledge regarding the most efficient ways to achieve our objectives.
Quincy:| Every pattern adds another layer of predictability and determinism to our lives. The more patterns we possess, the easier it becomes to predict our own future—since free will is the only thing that introduces branching paths and genuine possibilities. Every instance of automation or predetermination narrows those possibilities down. |
In my view, you can't predict your own future because of the sheer number of random variables that will inevitably crash into your life. We are free to react to those variables, but we have zero control over them.
Quincy:| When people ponder this, they ask themselves: are we certain that at any given moment we are truly exercising choice and free will... or are we merely acting out how we were programmed to act? |
Both. Our biological makeup provides the capacity for free will. The thinking process itself isn't predetermined; it consists of a sequence of spontaneously generated thoughts that we can then evaluate and judge. In that evaluation, we effectively exercise our free will.
Quincy:| Free will is the hallmark of life and consciousness—the supposed line in the sand between us and our machines. Without it, we’re nothing more than sophisticated biological engines. It makes you wonder if we're even truly living at all. |
Personally, I think we are machines—just the kind where the design actually allows for free will.
It’s kind of an interesting thought, though—how determinism might actually pave the way for non-determinism. I guess the logical conclusion would be that if non-determinism is a thing, it had to have been there from the very beginning.