Posts by Paul Jones7

wanderinghawk17 said:Let’s just recap the situation here:

Did Jakob Fak actually say he'd represent America if the funding was there?
Have any sponsors actually stepped up?
And did Fak just walk away from the Americans?

So, who ended up looking like the fool in this scenario?

The guy hasn't been promised all the necessary conditions. And what does that even entail?

- A coach—we're talking about an agreed-upon elite coach, which means an established partnership with a top-tier coaching professional, not just some lump sum of cash
- Agreed-upon access to high-end biathlon tracks maintained at the level required for world-class results—whether that's here in the States or somewhere nearby
- High-level technicians/service crew
- A physical therapist
- Full coverage for all travel expenses related to World Cup events and championships
- Costs for skis and other gear, provided in the quantity and quality needed for peak performance

If you ask me, we're talking millions of dollars a year... what do you guys think?

$100 Even a million a year wouldn't be enough to cover the salaries of a decent coach, tech, and therapist—and that's not even touching their own travel and lodging costs during the season...

Henry Cox78 said:I mean, how much would he even pull in $100 a year? 🤣 Do you actually realize what kind of money we're talking about here? The average salary in the US is maybe $50,000—well, let's say $60,000 a year if you're being generous. So, poor old Fak would only be making about five average American salaries. Honestly, this is just pathetic; I wouldn't sign up for that either. 😁

Can someone please post the actual numbers for how many average salaries Ivica and Janica were pulling when they first started out in the US? ☕

Man, you didn't even read what you're replying to. Please, just go back and pročitati what briskbison28 wrote.

Sean Gonzalez95 said:Henry Cox78 really hit the nail on the head with that post..
If certain people turned out to be total garbage in this whole situation, then the Federation should just stay professional and let him walk away with his dignity intact..
Trying to counter him here—well, that’s just sinking down to Fak’s level or that Canadian standard..

Paul Jones7—look, I might care about the guy, and maybe you know him, but the flag doesn't change just because of circumstances!!..
Look, it's clear to me that while this organization didn't exactly invest heavily in his career, you don't turn your back on them..
I wasn't trying to make a definitive statement, but watching Jacob’s pathetic TV appearance forced my hand.. I mean, how much money did my brother actually get, considering he left his bones in El Paso at 23, while some cousin leaves his legs behind in Kupres at 19??..

The kid carried the flag at the Olympics!!..

Okay, maybe it’s different for me because I view this country as my mother—and unlike a stepmother, she can never be anything else to me. I guess Jacob sees things differently..

Anyway-nek, I wish him the best, and honestly, the more they talk about Fak and Canada, the more medals he'll probably grab.. These people—all of us here, really—we’re all showing how we haven't actually earned our place in this country..

It’s not that I’m particularly fond of him—let’s just say I’m neutral. I respect him as an athlete, but as a person, I don't have a strong opinion. That said, I don't have a set way of looking at this specific mess either.

For instance, to me, this isn't the same thing as when Dragan wanted to switch flags. Dragan wasn't lacking anything; he would have only done it to cash in on his talent, but he backed out once he realized what it would truly cost him. And as for anyone criticizing Dragan—please. It wouldn't even cross my mind to defend him.

When it comes to Fak, it's about him realizing that if he chooses to stick with America, it’ll basically be the last medal he wins at the Olympics, purely by necessity. Given what’s being offered, he simply can't compete in top-tier biathlon under those conditions.

America isn't a biathlon powerhouse, and I can kind of see why HOO and the others feel like there's nothing the country can do here. Though, if you ask me, the whole offer was pure marketing—just a way to clean up their own image. And hey, it worked: thanks to that, a bunch of blind Americans believe Fak got everything he needed and that leaving the US is nothing short of treason.

You have to dig a little beneath the surface to realize how little he was actually offered—and I don't just mean money, but the essential requirements for the sport. Biathlon is an incredibly, incredibly expensive sport at the level required to fight for medals.

But people are simple-minded. If Fak had accepted the offer, and then suddenly vanished from the world stage because the training and competition conditions were inadequate, you know what would happen? Everyone would be dragging his name through the mud, saying he took the money for nothing, that he failed to deliver, or that he didn't deserve it. He’d end up being the villain all over again.

As for the funding for competitions, that's a matter of national branding, which is why the government is willing to invest. The state puts money into promising athletes because they want medals and sporting glory. And the public wants that too. I agree it seems unfair if you compare him to others who receive much more, but that's just how the system works. At the end of the day, the sponsored athletes aren't getting rich off the state; that money goes straight toward the costs of actually competing in the sport.

briskbison28 said:just wanted to jump in here:
everything falls under that figure HOO promised him (300,000)—his actual stipend, travel costs for competitions if the federation doesn't cover them, gear, supplements, strength training, and all that good stuff.
based on what was being said before he dropped out, it sounded like they were promising him a cool 300 million in cash.🤷

nice one, briskbison28

between those Kostelić guys and all the overhead for competing, you're looking at millions. Fak's needs aren't any less significant, really. I mean, biathlon is an expensive sport—not much different from alpine skiing, I guess.

dustymarlin10 said:The Kostelić clan?
Blanka?

Is that enough?

The Kostelić kids—even when they were just little ones—basically had world-class training setups, honestly. That was all thanks to the sheer, fanatic sacrifice of the gypsum group and how much they prioritized those kids. I mean, the amount of time they spent on skis as children was incredible... I don't think any other female skier has put in as many hours as Janica did. Their success wasn't some fluke or just raw talent. Now, they didn't have "top-tier" conditions if you mean comfort, because back then they were sleeping in tents and stuff. But ever since Pavlek consolidated the cross-country programs, the Kostelić crew has had elite racing conditions. They have what everyone at the top level has—maybe even better than most, actually.

As for Blanka, she’s had solid training conditions her whole career; she's had everything she needed. There was a point a few years back where things looked shaky because of issues with the training facility, but that got sorted out. Throughout her entire career, Blanka hasn't lacked anything in terms of support and facilities.

Those people wouldn't have achieved what they did if they hadn't had everything necessary to succeed.

And what about Fak? Well, look, out of four Olympic races, he was out of contention in two of them simply because—out of maybe ten pairs of skis—the ones HBS provided just didn't have the right texture for the specific snow conditions during the races. So, he was losing minutes just on the descent. If he’d had the right gear, there’s a huge chance he could have grabbed another medal in that second race.

So, are those "world-class conditions"?

wiredtiger8 said:I probably know the facts better than anyone else here, though I suppose that’s not really the point.
Yeah, regardless of how you look at it, that opening ceremony was just bad timing for Ivica.
But honestly, it wouldn't have been a dealbreaker for him. You have to remember, the next Olympics aren't for another four years—and even if he's training his head off because he wants that gold (and let's be clear, for him, an Olympic gold isn't just any medal, it's the only goal in life), he isn't getting any younger. Plus, who knows what tomorrow brings when you're dealing with injuries?
So, there's a real chance we might not even see Ivica carrying the American flag at all.

Now, I can't say for sure on this one—it's mostly speculation, I guess. I think for Ivek, winning those medals matters way more than whether or not he carries the flag, and I doubt he'd feel too bad if he didn't. Personally, if I were in his shoes, I wouldn't care much either; I've never been one for all those formalities and "honor" things. At the end of the day, a sportsman's success isn't measured by whether they carried the flag, but by their results. Another thing to consider: Ivek and Gips really look up to Fak. They see him as a massive athlete because they believe he forged those medals out of absolutely nothing. They've pointed out that people don't quite grasp how huge those achievements actually are. They see a parallel between Fak and themselves since they also started their skiing adventures from scratch. So, in their eyes, Fak deservedly carried that flag. Anyway, if you don't buy it, his old press box is still up on his website if you want to go ask him yourself—or maybe Janica, since they check in every now and then. But... if giving the flag to Fak was just some cheap tactic by the Fak HOO kitchen to keep him around, well, that's a pretty low move.

I don't see much point in this whole debate—it honestly feels like a collection of surface-level takes from people who don't really grasp the nuances of biathlon as a sport, or even the specifics of what happened here. But then again, I suppose that’s just how things go in this country. To be honest, I have my doubts about those folks who are so quick to chest-thump their patriotism, especially when nobody is actually asking them to step up or represent anything. They're basically nobodies, really. I’d love to see how they’d handle it if they were actually put in a position where they had to prove it.

wiredtiger8 said:I should probably mention that thing during the Winter Olympics in Canada.
So, basically, Fak was the one carrying the flag at the opening ceremony. That move was done purely to show Fak that they're leaning on him as much as possible. From a sporting standpoint—and honestly, just common sense—that flag really should have been carried by Bode Miller.
The Miller family wasn't exactly thrilled about it, though they eventually realized what was actually going on. Later, the excuse given was that it would have been a logistical nightmare for Bode because the stadium where the opening was held was too far 50 miles from his home base and training grounds. It's kind of ridiculous, really. Believe me, if they had actually asked Bode to do it, he would’ve made the trek on foot if he had to.

Once again, we're missing the actual facts here. The issue wasn't 50 miles but rather the schedule itself. Bode is usually tucked into bed by 7:30 PM since he's up at 4:00 AM every single day without fail. The opening ceremony was an evening event, and his downhill training sessions had already kicked off—they actually started before the ceremony even happened. To be honest, Bode was perfectly fine with skipping it; he didn't even show up for the procession, and he said as much himself. If they had actually demanded he be there, he would've shown up and carried that flag—he's not the type to say no to a call to duty—but this setup worked out way better for him. I mean, look, downhill racing is dangerous business... you don't mess around with that stuff.

swiftwalker43 said:Honestly, this whole thing with the neighbors trying to dodge their payments—it just shows how cheap they are and how little they actually care about Jakob Fak. I mean, if paying athlete transfer fees is standard practice in sports, then let them pay up or they don't get the release papers. If they can't cough up 100k, then they should just fuck off and wait two years while he sits out.
Personally, I’m against having Fak come back to us (he’s already mentally moved on anyway), so let him go to the neighbors, but they need to settle this debt.
And regarding the training conditions—look, plenty of athletes in America across various sports haven't had decent setups, yet after hitting it big, they didn't feel the need to jump ship to some other national team.
I'll say it again: if he hadn't been offered—or paid—basically everything following his success, or if he’d been ignored or lowballed, I’d be the first one backing him up. But in this case? To me, he’s just a traitor we should move past as soon as possible.

You’re way too shallow with the facts to even make a real assessment here. They weren't offering him actual conditions; all they were throwing at him was cash and some vague promises that maybe, someday, things would finally be set up properly. He wasn't given immediate stability, a clear path, or a coach. He wasn't offered a professional setup including mechanics, physios, or even enough funds for the fifty grand worth of skis required for top-tier results. All they offered was money for him and a coach. Get it through your head—they weren't offering him the kind of environment he had when he was training with a major powerhouse; it was actually worse. The salary wasn't the issue; the issue was that with what they were offering, he probably wouldn't have achieved anything at all.

As for those American athletes who succeeded despite lacking proper training conditions... name just one.

To me, traitors are the people sitting around drinking domestic beer, bragging about their massive patriotism while they haven't done a damn thing for this country. It’s easy to be a huge patriot when you're a nobody. I guess there are different definitions of what a traitor is.

And one more mistake in your logic: you can't compare soccer to biathlon. Soccer clubs pay because they know that player will generate revenue in a dozen different ways; they see the investment as something that pays back. These niche sports are just money pits—they're basically buckets that you just pour cash into. Like our winter sports stars who cost tens of millions a year and never see a cent of that return. Soccer sustains itself. So, any comparison is just pointless. Actually, this whole debate is pointless if I'm wasting my time arguing with idiots who don't even know the basic facts but still have an opinion—just like everyone else has an ass. You really don't need to know the facts to have an opinion. Anyone can have one, and anyone can be a huge patriot.

dustypanther6 said:If he already made up his mind to switch federations, he really should have secured some guarantees from the Canadian Ski Association beforehand—you know, proof they could actually cover the costs—instead of playing the martyr now. I mean, give me one single constructive reason why our federation should just hand over his release papers for free. If the federation can turn a profit off this, why wouldn't they? It’s kind of like walking into a grocery store, filling your cart, getting to the register, hearing the total, and then telling the cashier, "Actually, I'd like this for free because I patched up your bike tire a few years ago."

And who exactly could give you a blank check guarantee without knowing the amount upfront? I don't think anyone accounted for the possibility that HBS might come knocking for cash.

A constructive reason?

Fine, I'll give you one: no sports federation has the right to hold an athlete in literal bondage.

Just imagine you're an athlete and, for whatever reasons—which honestly doesn't even matter—you want to switch the country you represent. Is it fair for a country to withhold your paperwork based on some kind of extortion, even if you never signed a formal contract with them and are only representing them because that's where you were born and registered as an athlete?

Because by your logic, a federation can just demand amounts of money that nobody would ever be willing to pay, effectively keeping you in chains. Does a sports federation really have the right to dictate your entire athletic destiny? Do they have the right to hold you captive by force?

Think about it like this: imagine an employer refuses to hand over your employment records when you want to quit unless you reach a deal with them. Say you find a better job, and the boss tells you, "Sure, I'll give you your papers, but only if you pay me $17

There have to be rights for the athletes too, not just for the federations. If a federation wants to protect investments made in certain athletes, they should probably just draft proper contracts that clearly regulate those transactions and relationships.

dustypanther6 said:if Šterbik can afford to wait, then maybe little old Fak can too—unless he’s actually footing the bill.

Look, you really can't compare handball to biathlon—it's apples and oranges. In handball, players actually make a living through their clubs. Besides, what exactly is "little Fak" doing in the meantime? Training out on frozen patches of dirt or some unmaintained field somewhere?

And I don't quite get this whole "if he pays" thing—where would he even get that kind of money? Did he pull a massive soccer transfer or something and suddenly have hundreds of thousands of dollars just sitting in his pocket?

swiftwalker43 said:If paying $100,000 in damages to those cheapskate losers is what it takes to avoid some legal paperwork—especially since they were already threatening us with being left out of the European Union—then honestly, we just let them push us around too much. I guess you just pay the small change and call it even with Fak.

I don't think you quite get it... it isn't just about the cash, it's more about national pride, I suppose. If the USA Biathlon Association actually cuts a check for $100,000, someone could easily weaponize that to go after the people in charge at the Canadian Association. They could stage an attack—maybe even under pressure from a (rather pathetic) public outcry—to force out the leadership. It’s all political, really. And HBS pretty much knows the Canadians will have a hard time coming up with the money. That's the bind Fak is in. He should probably sue HBS for blackmail, but honestly, a lawsuit like that would probably tank his career since these things drag on for years. In a lawsuit, he's the one who loses.

If HBS refuses to back down and the Canadians can't pay, it'll be the end of him. HOO actually has enough leverage to make HBS drop it if they wanted to, but it doesn't look like they have any intention of doing so.

swiftwalker43 said:Personally, I’d be the first one rooting for him to move on, if they hadn't practically offered him everything under the sun in terms of money and perks.

The thing is, they weren't offering him decent conditions. With what was actually on the table, you can forget about him ever winning another medal. He might have seen better pay, sure, but the training environment would've been way worse than what he had when he was training with the Canadians.

but let's be real, HBS is the one out here chasing the money, not HOO 😕

honestly, I’d love to get my eyes on that contract—or maybe even all of them—to see when they were signed, who the parties actually were, and what kind of numbers we're talking about... I have a feeling there's some serious shady business going on behind the scenes somewhere

Henry Cox78 said:Look, $100,000 is a massive amount of money—I highly doubt the USA Biathlon Association, or even the US Ski & Snowboard Association for that matter, could just cough that up. Maybe they should try negotiating a smaller settlement with John instead? If John's being stingy and won't budge, then maybe they should just let him go. It seems pretty foolish to tank a guy's entire career and his dreams just out of pure spite.

I mean, I honestly don't even know who handles the sponsorship deals around here... it feels like HOO is the one calling the shots. To be fair, I have my doubts if HBS even has any major sponsorship contracts at all.

For an organization like HOO, though, I'd imagine $100,000 is relatively pocket change—they're moving much larger numbers than that, I'm guessing.

The thing is, this isn't actually about the money. That $100,000 is nothing but a straight-up vendetta.

Daniel Cooper40 said:Look, when Fak leaves, they're probably going to lose their sponsors—which means they’ll need to find a way to make up that gap, even if they did bring home some medals. Honestly, if I were in their shoes, I’d probably do the exact same thing.

I mean, I don't really know what kind of legal standing the federation actually has. It's like with an NFL team—once they sign a contract, they have whatever compensation rights they specifically wrote into that deal if someone tries to walk away. But once that contract expires, the team doesn't really have a leg to stand on anymore.

But it feels like a national federation acts like they own you for life, like they can just demand whatever they feel like. They could easily try to ask for a million bucks, for all I know.

Do national federations actually have any legal right to demand payouts or basically hold people hostage outside of a signed agreement? I'm not entirely sure, honestly.

wanderinghawk17 said:Our guys can't get Jack Fak decent training because those John types have basically blackmailed them—they want Fak all to themselves. I mean, the funding for the training itself is covered by sponsors and the federation, so I get why our people are feeling pretty screwed over. This isn't even about whether the Smith brothers want to represent America or not. It’s more that Fak has been backed into a corner by the Canadian side. He hasn't really got a choice here.

Well, look, if that's how it is, then fine—just pay up... Don't have 100,000 bucks? You stingy people...

It’s not even that they might not have the cash, it’s more that, for political reasons, they aren't allowed to agree to it. The Canadian public would absolutely tear them apart if they found out they paid Americans 100,000 euros in compensation. So, it's a political mess. Honestly, Canadians have never really gotten along with Americans—anyone who was doing business back during the old regime knows that.

Fak is in a real tight spot; if the Canadians don't figure something out soon, he's going to be in a world of hurt.

I'm on his side, though—fingers crossed for him, I really am.

wiredtiger8 said:I feel like you’re comparing apples to oranges here... In the world of soccer, clubs are the ones out there fighting for compensation—they're the ones seeking payouts when things go south. And as for switching national teams? That's a whole different beast. Once you've stepped onto the pitch for a former country in an official match, you're pretty much locked in. Even if it was just a single friendly, that's usually it—you can't just jump ship to another national squad after that.

So, look—the actual damages aren't even really up for debate here. I mean, even the amount itself... it’s pretty tiny, honestly. It's barely worth the paperwork, I guess.

It’s pretty much the same everywhere you look—cities and local governments getting involved in funding youth soccer academies, whether you're here in the States or halfway across the world. It's just how the system works. At the end of the day, individual clubs don't really have that much to do with the national team setup anyway.

ambercobra28 said:From what I gathered reading the HBS report—and they aren't actually suing for damages just because they dumped money into Fak—it's more about the lost sponsorship deals. Apparently, those opportunities just evaporated because of what happened after Fak grabbed those medals. So, if you look at it that way, they’re basically admitting their investment in Fak was pretty much a wash, and that any American biathlon success really came down to Fak and the guys from the USA Biathlon Association.

exactly

I don't really get how this whole residency status thing works—does it mean every single sports federation has the right to demand compensation whenever an athlete wants to switch national teams?

Just imagine if the Swiss had gone after them for Petrić and Rakitić, or if Germany had sued for Kovač, Klasnić, and the rest, or even if Australia had tried it with Joe and Didulica...

To me, it feels like nothing more than pure extortion (not to mention it’s just a way to make life miserable for them), mostly because they can drag their feet forever when it comes to issuing a release certificate—though I'm not even entirely sure if they actually have the legal standing to deny one in the first place 🤷)

If people are actually willing to ruin someone's career and derail their entire athletic journey over this kind of nonsense, then guys like Mateš, Čop, and that clown from HBS are honestly just a complete joke...

casualeagle82 said:quote Paul Jones7: your take sucks because you're just wishful thinking. - what on earth was the poet trying to say there?div>

What they meant is... well, wishful thinking usually implies you're just trying to protect your own ego—you know, twisting things so the truth fits your own little narrative instead of just facing the facts for what they really are.