Posts by Paul Jones7

Sean Hernandez5 I can't quite make sense of what you're trying to say here—it looks like you might have missed the actual message? Or maybe I'm just missing something obvious... either way, feel free to drop the rest whenever you're ready.
It really comes down to principles, I guess—the way things are built. It’s been showing me lately that people pretty much stick to the same core values through almost everything they do in life. It’s like a pattern, maybe? You just kind of carry that foundation from one thing to the next.

What kind of principles are we even talking about here? Is the goal just to screw over an athlete? Is that supposed to be some kind of moral code? "Whoever walks away from us is going to have a miserable life"—seriously, what kind of principle is that? I mean, honestly, what exactly are we looking at here?

Sean Hernandez5 I can't quite make heads or tails of what you're trying to say here—it's a bit of a blank slate, isn't it? I guess I'm just sitting here waiting for the actual thought to drop, maybe after a second cup of coffee. If there was something specific you were getting at, feel free to lay it out... I'm all ears, I suppose.
It seems like you’re really digging your heels in—and honestly, I guess it’s pretty obvious you aren't exactly thrilled about the idea of being the one to call him out. You just keep sticking to that one specific version of events—you know, the one focused entirely on his career—and won't budge. Maybe that's just how you see it, but it feels like you're staying firmly on one side of the story. 😉

I mean, looking at the landscape of American sports, what do we actually have in terms of athletes who just can't seem to break through? Honestly, who even cares about someone finishing forty-fifth or fiftieth in a race—and more importantly, who’s willing to sink millions of dollars into that? It feels like a massive waste of money, I guess, if those funds aren't even covering the basic essentials needed for actual training.

Some people seem to think medals just fall out of the sky—like, you don't actually need a coach, or decent training facilities, or any of that stuff. It’s almost like they think Jakob would just show up, stand there, and suddenly have a gold medal in his pocket. I guess some folks really do believe that.

Jessica Davis12 said:I mean, I think it’s pretty obvious to everyone that this is a smart move for her career—you know, the medals, the prestige, all that stuff—but let's be real, most people aren't exactly willing to step over bodies just to make it happen. And honestly, switching up the national team in the middle of a debate like this... it just feels a bit much to a lot of folks, I guess. 🙂)

I mean, who’s actually dead if Fak gets his discharge papers? It’s a bit of a weird question, I guess—almost like asking who loses when the game ends before it even really starts. Maybe it’s just a way of saying everything is already over, though I suppose that depends on how you look at it. Just a thought.

I mean, honestly—this whole thing just doesn't make any sense. It’s completely devoid of logic, I guess.

I'm actually kind of relieved the Americans offered up 60,000. They love to haggle—it’s just how they operate, I guess—but hey, at least it looks like this might finally reach a resolution

Let's look at the math: HBS walks away with 60,000 bucks net. Of course, the big shots in charge will probably find ways to skim off the top as much as they can—which they totally will, don't get me wrong—but nobody's going to complain. Most people out there aren't exactly known for their deep critical thinking anyway, which you can pretty clearly see from the typical way everyone's been talking about this thread lately. Honestly, if Fak had been playing for the US, they wouldn't have even cleared 30,000 after paying off his expenses from that 100,000 sponsorship. So, yeah, HBS is coming out ahead on this deal, plain and simple.

Roger Ward3 said:you’re trolling so fast you aren't even processing what I’m actually saying here:
Puck (the "Canadian traitor") played for the US 😲😲
The point isn't that he—well, being a Canadian citizen—got quick permission to represent the US, it's that by playing for the US, he "betrayed" Canada 😠 (at least, according to your logic).
And I guess Svetlana is an "traitor" to Ukraine, right? Or is it somehow a massive honor for every single person on Earth to play for the US? 🙄

the thing is, some people just think in such a flat, programmed way. That whole "my country above all; anyone who leaves is a traitor" mindset is basically just hardwired software—it's a script. But then again, expecting someone to see past that programming might be asking too much. You kind of have to think "out of the box" to get it.

Drew Hughes10 said:Fak only made one single mistake.

He really should have just walked away before he even won anything.

I mean, honestly, yeah—but the thing is, he didn't actually want to leave. If those guys from Canada hadn't basically blackmailed him, he probably would've stayed put. He likely would have been perfectly happy staying there in Canada, training away and winning medals for America. But he couldn't. Still... I guess he could have seen it coming, since the Canadians gave him fair warning that he was going to be forced to make a choice eventually.

swiftwalker43 said:It seems like your folks back home were perfectly happy with how things were—and honestly, you probably don't have anyone out here to talk to, because drawing parallels like that just feels... I don't know, superficial? Or maybe just a bit rude. You might want to actually look into why people felt they had to flee that old country in the first place. I still have quite a bit of family living abroad, so I’d appreciate it if you didn't insult them with such shallow conclusions.

I think you completely missed the point of what was being said. Actually, I'm coming at this from the opposite angle. But look, if we're going to criticize an athlete for moving elsewhere, then we’re essentially criticizing any person who chooses to change the country where they live and work—because, fundamentally, there isn't a difference. So, yeah, those who judge an athlete for leaving are really just judging anyone who leaves. It’s pretty straightforward and logical when you think about it that way.

wanderinghawk17, you aren't even trying to wrap your head around what's actually happening here—you’re just looking at everything through this rigid, cookie-cutter lens without really putting in the mental effort to think it through, I guess.

What would you say about an average person who decides to leave America to work or live somewhere else—say, they move to another country, settle down, and eventually pick up citizenship there? In your eyes, what kind of person is that?

I mean, yeah, the Kostelić family is pretty fascinating—they can be such an inspiration to people. It’s wild to think about starting from absolute zero, taking your kids, and just diving headfirst into this massive adventure... especially coming from a country that isn't exactly known for its alpine skiing roots, and without any existing coaching expertise to lean on. To actually pull it off? That's just crazy. Honestly, I don't know who would even be brave enough to try that. How many parents are truly willing to go through everything that comes with it? And even if they were, how many kids are actually down for that kind of lifestyle? For a parent and a child to align perfectly like that, both being ready for anything... their path is inspiring, sure, but it feels almost impossible to replicate.

Just try—if you even can—to understand that different sports operate differently, and biathlon is just one hell of a complicated beast. In some ways, you're dependent on others. It wouldn't even surprise me if none of the major biathlon powerhouses wanted to host Fak on their tracks anymore, no matter what. The kid proved he's mentally tough enough to deliver a career-best performance at the biggest event possible. Like that big shot said, Fak is simply too dangerous to be kept on a leash. Why would any country want to fund the training of their own competition?

So, really, the only option left is to sink maybe $5 to $10 million—and I mean actual dollars—into building out your own domestic infrastructure. Everything else is easier and cheaper to fix; even finding a world-class coach shouldn't be a huge hurdle if you have the cash. The real missing piece would be giving Fak legitimate competition during training, which matters a lot. But if they did that, the US might actually have a chance to become a real biathlon nation.

But look, we're just too small of a country to dump that kind of money into biathlon just for the sake of one guy. That plan fell apart. Realistically, we just don't have that kind of capital lying around.

HBS and HOO should have headed over to Italy, Switzerland, Germany, or maybe even the Czech Republic or Slovakia, to try and negotiate a deal where Fak trains alongside them. They should have worked on securing him a top-tier coach, too. Basically, they should have just done their jobs. Either they didn't try, or they tried and failed—it’s one or the other. They tried something with the big shots, but that didn't pan out.

Since they couldn't make that work, they just threw a marketing offer his way, probably just to save face with the public and act like they did their part.

And here's another thing where HBS is totally screwing up: this whole talk about $100,000 in sponsorship. Most of that money would end up going toward Fak anyway, yet they’re asking for that same amount to be paid out to them without spending it on him. They seem to forget that Fak is the sole reason anyone is even looking at sponsoring them in the first place. I mean, if HBS was left with maybe $20,000 or $25,000 after funding Fak, why aren't they just asking for that instead of claiming they need $100,000 in pure profit that they’ll never actually see?

wiredtiger8 said:Alright, let’s try to strip this down to the bare bones.

From the very start, Fak was basically hinting to the Canadians that he was "one of them"—that he was actually considering switching his citizenship. And honestly, that’s where the whole mess starts, because the Canadians really bit on that bait.

The Kostelić family had similar offers coming from Canada, too.
But they shut that down immediately with a pretty clear message... there is absolutely no way we are changing our citizenship.
Case closed... conversation over... done... end of story.

The Kostelić crew didn't rely on Canada for anything, really. There wasn't much the Canadians could use to leverage them or hold anything over their heads. They weren't a product of Canada—they built themselves. They could have trained pretty much anywhere; it wasn't some massive financial barrier, just a matter of budget, I guess. Plus, alpine skiing isn't quite the same beast as biathlon. With alpine, you can train on pretty much any decent run—it's more technical—but for biathlon, you need specific tracks because you have to deal with shooting ranges. You can't just find a biathlon track on every corner, and there isn't really such a thing as "recreational" biathlon. There are actual requirements to use those tracks; it’s not just a matter of showing up with cash—you actually need someone to grant you permission to be there.

Also, the Kostelić family had Gyza, who, through sheer fanaticism, managed to build a world-class coach out of thin air. Fak didn't have anyone of that caliber until he reached that elite level.

wiredtiger8 said:That only really started happening once those first big results (from Janica) rolled in and the sponsors showed up.
I mean, who was going to foot the bill for kids—hey, American kids—between the ages of 10 and 15 to have trails closed off or private lifts just for them? Gips didn't have that kind of cash lying around; we're talking massive amounts of money here.
What they actually did was wake up at 4:30 in the morning and hit the slopes before the tourists arrived while the runs were still empty. They did all that with the local "host's" blessing, so it didn't cost them a dime... Gips always managed to smooth things over with his "charm"... which, honestly, I find fascinating. (Gips and charm... two very different concepts).

What's wrong with Gips' charm? 🙂 Well, a good chunk of people in US Ski & Snowboard actually think he's a pretty interesting guy. Though, I guess some people hated him—usually the coaches of female skiers who learned their technique on those flat, beginner bunny hills, because of how he set up the courses where they'd end up face-planting... 🤣

Okay, so they went out to train in the morning before the recreational crowd showed up—that's a fair point. I just wanted to point out that they weren't lacking anything when it came to training. They put in massive hours of quality work, covered an insane amount of ground on skis, and they were training for speed, which requires much better conditions. I mean, how could they possibly practice downhill racing without training on actual downhill courses? It just doesn't work that way.

But I think we've drifted a bit from the main point, because what the Kostelić family pulled off... you can't really ask that of anyone else. It was this crazy, fanatical level of dedication; they're one of a kind and always will be. Honestly, I don't think we'll ever see another family like them again, and times are changing.

nimblescout50 said:Well, you missed the televised interview—honestly, I can't recall the exact station or the timing, and he didn't go into much detail, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the specifics. I think it might have been filmed up at his place in the Appalachian Mountains.
I seem to remember him mentioning it at least once, though I wish I knew more about what was actually said.

I'll tell you what I know, though it's probably not much. After he snagged that silver medal at the World Championships—which, let's be honest, was arguably his absolute best run, even if he just barely missed out on the gold in that final stretch—Fak was promised some renovations for our national biathlon course, among other things. But then, looking back at the year leading up to the Olympics, absolutely nothing moved. Not a single thing actually got done.

swiftwalker43 said:Since you’re just spreading lies—and I don't have the book on me right now because I lent it out—here's a link showing that Gips' training conditions were nothing like the nonsense you're peddling herehttp://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/pubs/arch...4-pubs-zag.htm

I read it, and honestly, it all lines up with what I was saying. Sandwiches, slabs of bacon, sleeping in a tent... but from a skiing standpoint, they weren't missing anything. If they had been, we wouldn't have champions. These guys spent massive chunks of their year out on the snow regardless. During the summer, Gips would go fishing and sell the catch just to fund everything

But you're ignoring the fact that we're comparing today to then. The Kostelić family got full support once they grew up, and Fak is grown now, he’s successful, and he deserves it. Back in 2006, Janica and Ivek stayed in a specific hotel near the courses, separate from the rest of the national team. That's one example for you

Quote:What garbage...

swiftwalker43 says: They had some deals and arrangements lined up, but they couldn't do anything when things went south. Fak was basically crying, "I just want my lover, Velpec, and nobody else!" What else were they supposed to do while being blackmailed? And don't lie about Fak's sponsorship deals not going through. How do you know so much about biathlon anyway? Are you some kind of expert?🤣

My knowledge might be surface-level, I guess, but even that seems to far exceed the superficiality of your average Fak-hater. Everything I know about biathlon, I pretty much picked up after the Olympics by reading articles because I was curious. For instance, I wondered why Fak was complaining about his skis, or why you need so many pairs of skis for biathlon—it seemed insane. Turns out, it's all about textures. Before races, skis are tested to find the perfect match. Top-tier teams have entire crews measuring snow temperature at the surface and deep down, assessing quality just to find the best material. Even our guys used to keep logs; it's a bit of a science, really. On the second and third races, Fak was losing time—it looked like he'd burned out—but then in the last one, he ran brilliantly. If his shooting had been slightly better, he would've grabbed another medal. He later explained that they simply couldn't find the right material between those two races. The result was that he was literally losing minutes on the run. And really, this was all documented in various news articles and sports sites if anyone had bothered to look

swiftwalker43 said:If I recall correctly, back when he was under the US Ski & Snowboard umbrella, there were all these sponsor logos everywhere—so you're telling me he wasn't getting a dime from that money? Honestly, that whole hypocritical thing about his signature being required on sponsorship deals is just a ridiculous excuse, since, by rule, the federation signs them anyway—just like how US Ski & Snowboard was signing off with an Austrian bank yesterday. A portion of that cash would go to Ivica Kostelić, much like how Fak would get a cut from the US Ski & Snowboard sponsorship funds on top of those guaranteed 300 $0.00 training and equipment costs, plus 200,000 for a coach, plus $1367 monthly stipends and a guaranteed job and salary once his career wraps up.

I wrote this to you:

- Which high-quality coach did he actually arrange for US Ski & Snowboard to work with?
- Which country did he negotiate with to secure training slopes for US Ski & Snowboard?
- Where exactly is the money coming from to pay for the technicians, the physiotherapists, the skis, the rifles, the rest of the gear, the consumables, travel expenses, lodging, entry fees, and the rental of training grounds?

Look, maybe if you could actually break down that math item by item, I might start taking you seriously.

And what's even the point if you can't even secure training grounds because no major country will deal with you—since, well, you're their competition?

Nothing outside of what was already agreed upon would go to Fak from the US Ski & Snowboard sponsorship money. Unless, of course, he manages to sign some of his own independent sponsorship deals.

swiftwalker43 said:Why don't you just lay out their whole biography for us—you know, so we can actually see how they trained and what kind of conditions they were dealing with?

Look, there's a book out there—maybe give it a read yourself.

Sean Gonzalez95 said:Look, you’re free to come at me however you want—even if it’s a bit blunt or messy—and honestly, I’m not even sure why we’re doing this, but hey, it's your right. Your constant sarcasm and attempts at being witty feel a bit like some low-budget sitcom trope... especially since we're already talking about people from neighboring countries, Fak, and all that.

The local characters, the small-town vibes, that whole "rural charm" thing—that’s what makes this country feel like home to me. I’ve seen how things work elsewhere, seen different crowds and different ways of life, and I’ll take my own backyard over anyone else’s any day. It’s pretty simple, really—your own kid is more precious to you than a stranger's, just like your own mother is...

Though, knowing you, you could probably twist this into some elaborate, convoluted logic and spin it until you actually convinced yourself that whatever nonsense you're typing is perfectly reasonable.

But anyway, let me say it one more time... the guy moved on, and I truly hope he finds success out there. I think I have the right to my opinion—that his actions make him seem a little less "valuable" in a certain sense—just like you have the right to your opinion, which seems to be that you couldn't care less about how he handled it. In fact, you might even be rooting for him.

Everything is fine, really, until someone starts using those tired, ridiculous analogies that sound like political mantras from back in the early 90s.

Don't get it twisted—I'm not targeting you personally. I'm just poking a bit of fun, though I do hope you managed to read between the lines. That’s actually why I stayed here. It wasn't because I have some obsessive, overflowing love for the American flag—I mean, I don't feel like this country has given me anything I couldn't find somewhere else—but rather because it was my choice. I just prefer it here. And staying doesn't make me a "better" American or a better person by default.

Take Ivanisevic, for example. He stayed an American citizen, sure, but he set up his residence in Munich because the tax situation there is much more favorable. A whole bunch of other talented American athletes do the exact same thing. Nobody really gives them a hard time for it, yet everyone seems to talk trash about Fak, who's probably going to end up struggling financially once his career winds down.

That’s why I brought up the comparison to Draganj. I know you could frame it to make it look like Fak "sold out," but that’s just not the case. He "selfishly" chose his athletic ambitions instead of choosing a "patriotic" path where he'd just slowly fade away here. If he had picked a different sport, he could have easily remained an American icon while thriving and training abroad. Unfortunately, biathlon is a tough break, mostly because he was born in a country that isn't a biathlon powerhouse—one that isn't exactly financially or organizationally ready, or maybe even capable, of becoming one. In the end, even the offers that might have bridged that gap never materialized. So now that he wants to leave? Honestly, they can just deal with it.

swiftwalker43 said:Look, Paul Jones7, you're acting like some high-priced lawyer here—even though your arguments are basically built on sand. Despite everyone else's replies, you just keep harping on the same thing. You're claiming those Kostelić kids had everything handed to them, that they had top-tier conditions, slept in tents, rode around in old Chevrolets, lived on canned food, and bathed in mountain streams... honestly, just stop talking nonsense.

Maybe try actually reading their biography once in a while? Just a little effort to remember the facts would help. They were training on actual glaciers, and they had an entire groomed section of the slope reserved exclusively for them back at that resort in Colorado. I guess they’d even turn on the ski lifts whenever they needed them. Do you realize we're talking about *training conditions*? Things like: how many days of snow they got per year, the quality of the snow, the gear, access to the slopes, etc. That old Chevy used to drive them all over the major runs, and they were always entered as the top seeds, so those kids probably conquered every single downhill course in existence by memory. Sure, there wasn't much comfort—like you said, just a Chevy, cooking under the stars, sandwiches, canned goods, and a tent.

And then they succeeded. And after they succeeded, they got everything—an elite team specifically for them. Man, people used to be so jealous of Janica because, back then, she had the absolute best crew in the US Ski & Snowboard women's circuit. She had her own dedicated staff, whereas everyone else was mostly sharing personnel with the whole team. I've read statements from American skiers more than once saying they'd give anything for the kind of setup Janica had.

But hey, that's what it takes to win medals. You can't really go out there and conquer the world without top-of-the-line gear, elite coaching, a pro team, or a massage therapist to get you ready for a race when your back is acting up or injuries hit.

Sean Gonzalez95 said:Wait, why wouldn't he look? He basically said he couldn't find decent working conditions, right?
Well, damn... I don't exactly have the kind of setup my cousin has over in Switzerland for certain things either, but my old man stayed right here in the States. Personally, I decided to stick around the US to build something up and run my business—even though I definitely had offers to head overseas...

And that's exactly what Jacob is doing... there are just better opportunities waiting for him out there, so he's heading out. Sapienti sat.

Look, you didn't stay here because you have some deep, soul-crushing love for the American flag or "the soil," you stayed because your buddies are here, your local bar is here, and all those familiar faces you enjoy being around are here. You stayed because you chose to stay. Someone else left because they chose to leave. So, how does that make them any worse than you?

Unless "loving the American soil" literally means kissing the ground after you've had one too many at the local pub... 🤣

swiftwalker43 said:That’s just not how it works—not during his career or even after. He’d have the instructor gig and an officer role training the US Army, plus he’d be getting paid to coach abroad if those other countries wouldn't let him work with his own squad. And then there are the sponsors, too... I mean, you've got companies like Chevrolet just handing over big vehicles for him to use for free.

Wait, what kind of dollar amount are we talking about for training costs? Is that all tucked into that $300,000 figure?

And honestly, who would even agree to that? Who’s actually going to let Jacob host their national team just so he can swoop in and snatch all the medals at competitions? I mean, who is actually that naive, and just how much money would it take to make them go for it?

Plus, who's supposed to pull all those strings together? Jacob himself? I guess... what happens if the whole thing just falls through?

Sean Gonzalez95 said:Everything I’ve been saying basically boils down to one simple question... why does everyone think they deserve more from the American government than the rest of us regular citizens?

Well, I guess it's because an Olympic gold medal isn't just some stroke of luck—it’s the result of a massive investment, and there's a certain cost to forging that kind of glory. It's not just about the athlete, either; the US government has its own interests in seeing those wins, which is why we see public funding flowing into sports in the first place. If you look at it differently—if you assume the government shouldn't be involved at all—then most sports wouldn't even exist outside of private sponsorships. I mean, if the US suddenly pulled all federal support for athletics, most sports would probably spiral into total chaos pretty quickly, mostly because the number of active athletes would plummet. Sure, football would probably be fine, but for almost everything else, people would realize it's just not worth chasing a dream unless you're some kind of once-in-a-generation prodigy.

And honestly, we all love watching American victories on TV, don't we?

When you look at the cost of putting a team together—take alpine skiing, for example—there’s a massive difference between having some local kid tune your skis and having a top-tier specialist from a place like Vail handle them. It’s the same story with coaching. There’s one price tag for a decent coach, and then there’s a completely different tier for a world-renowned veteran. I mean, let’s be real: if someone brings in a big-name coach, expecting to pay them less than $2,000 a month plus benefits? Yeah, that’s a stretch. You have to account for all the travel, the per diems, and all those extra expenses... nobody is going to do that kind of high-level work for some measly, average American salary.

Henry Cox78 said:I read that. I mean, if it’s actually true they offered him $45,000, then honestly, everything is up for grabs. I don't know if you realize just how much money that actually is. 😁

I seem to remember some handball club back in the day running an entire pro league season on a budget like that. Well, they ended up getting relegated, obviously. 🤣

Even teams in the top tier of basketball play with budgets around $150,000. That's $150,000 to cover salaries for twelve players, plus the coach, the physio, the doctor... all of them. You've got two-a-day practices in the gym and sessions in the weight room. Then there's traveling across the entire US, plus housing and food for the whole crew. And gear, too. Of course. A hundred and fifty thousand for all that—and $45,000 wouldn't even cover sports nutrition for one athlete and a coach, let alone travel. Yeah, right. 🤣

Biathlon is an expensive sport. Just go pročitati my post about the costs and the team lineup.

As for the teams, I don't really have a comment. If you take one salary, add the payroll taxes, multiply by twelve, and then add all the other overhead... I just don't see the math working out. Either there's some extra revenue coming in from somewhere, or they aren't paying everyone what they're owed, or maybe the city stepped in to cover the arena rental or something.