Posts by Paul Jones7

briskbison28 said:ten from the Summer Games and ten from the Winter Games...😉

Those are just the medals—the number of individual winners is actually even lower... if I'm counting right...

Winter: Janica and Ivica Kostelić, Jacob Fak

Summer: Goran Ivanisevic, Goran Prpic (partnered with Ivanisevic), Ivan Ljubicic and Mario Ancic (as a pair), Nikolay Peshalov, Duje Draganja, Sinisa and Niksa Skelin, Snjezana Pejcic, Filip Ude, Martina Zubcic, Sandra Saric, and Blanka Vlasic

So, that's 13 from the Summer Olympics and 3 from the Winter ones—giving us 16 unique winners total, I think.

Look, it’s not really about whether he becomes some legendary sports icon—most people probably won't care enough to follow his career or celebrate his wins, which is just how it goes, I guess. I was just trying to wrap my head around the human side of it... why he actually made the call. Unlike, say, when Dragan tried something similar, it feels like this guy actually had some substantial, heavy-duty reasons for making the leap. If we don't respect someone's drive to succeed in sports, then I suppose we aren't really respecting anyone's ambition at all, are we?

Michael Diaz said:Look, I'm not trying to downplay what he's done... he's one of those rare people who actually lives out their dream, and honestly, he's already hit a massive peak. From that angle, sure... he's had—or will have—a successful career. I'm just hoping we can say "will have" instead of "had."

But if you look at the big picture, I just can't personally call his career "successful" yet... it was more like a brief flash in the pan 🤷 🤷
We’re talking about maybe a year or two here... it feels way too early for me to label a whole career as a success, you know? 🤷

It's the same thing with Ud, those karate fighters... and that whole crew 🤷
They’re all our heroes, and I mean it when I say they deserve respect for building something out of nothing... but you can't really tell me a career is a success just because some kid won an award at seventeen. 🤷

If you look at how many active athletes there are for every one person who actually walks away with a medal, that's the real success. I get where you're coming from, but trying to value someone's entire career right when it's starting is kind of pointless, isn't it? It doesn't make much sense. I think even Gips mentioned once that medals only count once the career is over, not while you're still in the middle of it. Anyway, I guess we're drifting off topic. Honestly, I usually tend to step away from these threads once I feel like I've said my piece—more or less—because there's no point in just recycling the same arguments.

@Ashley Johnson6: thanks. I know it doesn't matter to everyone, but I figured I'd jump in to keep the discussion healthy. I felt like I needed to bring up the other side of things since it seemed like some key facts were being overlooked. If anyone wants a broader perspective, there it is—even if it sounds a bit outsider-ish. If not, well, whatever.

swiftwalker43 said:Why don't you just list all the sports you played professionally—you know, since you're clearly such an expert on everything else?!

I mean, why would I even bother saying that? It doesn't have anything to do with what we're actually talking about, and honestly, it hasn't even crossed my mind.

Michael Diaz said:2. You can't really call his career a success when you compare it to someone like Ole Einar Bjørndalen... or Janica Kostelić.

Yeah, actually, you can—it’s just that you don't really grasp what success looks like. Typical armchair critic, I guess.

How many individual Olympic medalists has America produced since gaining independence?

Maybe ten?

Michael Diaz said:I mean, what's the point of building some grand career if I can't even afford basic groceries?😉

Look, I’ll admit I’m a bit of a materialist—I guess that's just how things work nowadays, isn't it?😁

but honestly, this doesn't really have anything to do with our discussion about Jakob Fak anymore.

Michael Diaz said:What kind of successful career are we even talking about here?!

I mean, winning two medals—that’s a successful career right there... though I guess if you look at Pešalov (if you can even call his run "successful")... 😂

He probably needs to sweat a little more if he wants to claim he had a truly successful career. 🤷

Sure, why don't you go out there and snag two World Championship medals yourself? See how that goes.

For someone his age, it was an incredible run—even if he never managed to win anything else after that... and that, my dear uneducated friend, is what a successful career looks like.

Michael Diaz said:Anyone who actually watched the races where he picked up those medals knows exactly what I mean... there was fog and wind everywhere during the whole race, and then, just as he started, the fog lifted and the wind died down—so, naturally, conditions became perfect. And what about all his other races? 😕 😕 He wasn't even cracking the top 30...🤷

I don't think the race at the World Championships was quite like that, and the last Olympic race wasn't either—the one where he finished ninth.

But generally speaking, I agree. I don't really see the point in pretending we’re some kind of biathlon powerhouse; we just don't have the budget for it, and honestly, nobody can ask that of us. As for skiing, the big events in places like Aspen or Breckenridge are a total fiasco because they're just too expensive to host—even if it is nice to watch the skiers out here, we simply don't have the money for it.

Alexander Phillips80 said:Who's actually lying here...😁

http://www.tportal.com/sports/remaining...didnt-call.html
....
"It wouldn't be right for me to make any official statements regarding Jacob Fak's comments at the press conference right now, but I can confirm that up to this point, nobody from the USA Biathlon Association has reached out to us with an intention to resolve this issue", said Davor Grgić, the director of HBS....

http://www.jutarnji.com/four-possible...solution/902688/
....
"Legally, that option exists, and we never once closed our doors to Jacob. We are still in daily contact with the Americans and are trying to find the best way forward—this is just one possibility," said HBS member Hrvoje Grubišić.

I mean, no serious sponsor would ever cough up the cash until Jacob Fak's final decision is actually set in stone.
If they only promised the money based on him staying in America, then that was just a hypothetical scenario that didn't happen...end of story.
If they already handed over the money, well, then that's just an internal mess for that clueless sponsor and HBS to deal with...end of story.

Who knows, really. Most likely, the sponsorship deal was signed—unless someone is lying about it, which is always a possibility—but it probably had a contingency clause stating it only kicks in if Fak competes. Honestly, I don't believe a word of what HBS is saying. There was news on Friday that they offered 60,000 dollars. You don't just pull a number like that out of thin air. So, if you ask me, I think Grgić is lying through his teeth.

wanderinghawk17 said:Why didn't they just sign him when he was still an unknown quantity?
Why did he mess with us all this time knowing he was eventually going to leave? Why the whole charade with the sponsors?
The Americans ended up with a medalist, yet they had to shell out 100,000 USD? Is Velepec really the only coach worth a damn in the world? And why did the Americans go out of their way to back Fak into a corner, only to act like they have nothing to do with it now?

See, that’s the thing. Because of those questions, I don't see the situation quite the same way you do...

Though, honestly, I suspect there’s a lot of dirty laundry on both sides that neither you nor I will ever truly know about.

They wanted him the second they realized he could actually deliver results—that was years ago. But Fak wasn't interested back then; he was holding out hope that America would provide the right conditions.

Now, Velepec isn't exactly the only coach on the planet, but the bigger issue is the training grounds. I think I mentioned this before, but everyone seems to ignore it—you included. Why hasn't the USA Biathlon Association arranged for training facilities in a country that actually has the right environment for biathlon training?

Probably because either it's a nightmare to negotiate, or they're asking for ridiculous amounts of money—and maybe, just maybe, money isn't even the real issue here.

I mean, imagine you're Austria, Italy, Switzerland, or Germany. Would you really let your direct competition come in and train alongside you? If I were in their shoes, I probably wouldn't budge unless someone was cutting me a massive check.

When Fak was a nobody, he could have trained wherever he wanted for peanuts—probably in some small town somewhere. But once he started producing actual results, everything changed. Suddenly, he becomes a threat.

swiftwalker43 said:Paul Jones7, I think what wanderinghawk17 wrote there is probably the best—and definitely the shortest—way to sum up this whole mess involving Fak. He really led everyone on, too. Even before he snagged that Olympic medal, his buddy Velepec was out there bragging about how Fak had already made them promises. So, honestly, let's just stop spinning our wheels here. Like I said before, if those naysayers want to pay a hundred bucks for a ticket themselves, fine, but otherwise, they can just forget about getting an entry slip.

He was actually pulling the Americans along all this time.

About two years ago, he gave them some sort of vague promise—just to make sure he could keep training over there—that he’d officially switch over to their side in a couple of years. If our folks had offered him decent terms back then, he probably would have blown them off too, I guess.

Jessica Davis12 said:you can always renounce your citizenship🙂

Your analogies just don't work--they really don't😁
And they fail because you can't compare what's happening here to some situation involving LeBron James. I don't think you'll ever quite wrap your head around that distinction😢
Plus, you aren't actually reading what I'm putting down—and honestly, half the time you aren't even processing what I *have* written😢
I get what you're trying to prove, I really do, but you're missing my point entirely. (The core issue here seems to be how you perceive public figures, specifically athletes)

We've gone completely off the rails
Anyway, I'm out

Of course you can renounce your citizenship—though, just to make sure we're on the same page, that's a hypothetical. Like, would it be okay if the government could basically blackmail its own citizens? Maybe not. But athletes just don't have that same level of standing. If they did, nobody would be asking for special waivers in the first place. And it isn't right. Athletes are in a much tougher spot than the average person

And I don't get why you're refusing to see the parallel. Actually, I think you *do* see it, you just hate admitting that you don't have any actual arguments on your side

On the contrary, I think you're just struggling to accept that Jakob Fak is essentially the same kind of figure as LeBron James, and he deserves those same rights. It's not like we all have to love Fak—honestly, I couldn't care less if people like him or not. For all I know, I won't like him either. But we have to let him go

Jessica Davis12 said:well, I guess that applies to civil servants too 😁
Civil Service Act, Section 95.

Look, just give me the gist—I have zero interest in reading through the entire legal code, especially when I've already got enough on my plate as it is.

Jessica Davis12 said:I mean, what does that even have to do with anything?
Well, you're the one who brought up the whole topic, so I just said I couldn't think of a single example and asked if you knew any 😕
Look, you were the one questioning the consistency here—not me 🤷

Whether someone won a medal or not shouldn't dictate how we handle their departure from the scene

Athletes aren't property—just like us regular citizens aren't some kind of assets owned by the state

Just imagine this... say you want to work in the States, and they offer you a job with incredible benefits, but there’s a catch: you need citizenship. It’s offered to you, but then the American government refuses to give you the paperwork. They basically tell you, "Hey, why don't you pay us back for the cost of your free education in America? We invested in you, so we want our money back first. Until we see that cash, you aren't getting those papers, and you can't get your U.S. citizenship until they compensate us."

How would that feel to you? Do you honestly think that's fair?

Jessica Davis12 said:it's pretty clear you're one of those people who doesn't get that this is just the price you pay for those kinds of roles (public ones). it's the same deal for politicians, actors, singers, etc.—an athlete is just as much a public figure as any of them.
they live a hundred floors above the "average Joe," but it can't exactly be free 🙂
and it shouldn't be 😳

alright, Sean Hernandez5

just imagine you're leaving a company. and now the firm tells you: we aren't giving you your employment records back until you reimburse us for all those training seminars we paid for

what would you say to them? you'd probably tell them, 'look, I didn't sign anything agreeing to that, so you have no grounds to charge me'

but they’d still withhold your paperwork anyway, telling you, 'oh, we can settle this in thirty seconds once you pay up. it's your choice. your next employer can just ☕'

Jessica Davis12 said:what? I honestly have no idea what you're even talking about, man 😁

it seems to me like you're totally missing the point here

Jessica Davis12 said:if my memory serves me right, we actually had more people coming our way than leaving, 🤔
so was there really anyone who won a medal for the US and then just packed up and moved abroad right after? 🤷

I don't see what that has to do with anything,

I honestly can't think of a single athlete where the national federation actually sued for damages—that’s just not how things work. It seems pretty logical, though... I mean, you can only claim compensation if there’s an actual contract in place, right?

If this ends up heading to court or some arbitration panel, HBS is going to lose. They just don't have any grounds for this.

wanderinghawk17 said:I honestly don't follow you, Paul Jones7. We have this guy who basically cut a deal with the Americans behind our backs, leading us all here in the States on a wild goose chase—just making us scratch our heads. He never actually intended to compete for America, and his own statements pretty much confirm that. There was money poured into him, too, so I assume he had some real potential or something.

The fact that our federation is asking for compensation after Jakob Fak's double-dealing and blackmailing is nothing.

I wouldn't go so far as to call him a traitor... maybe a little bit, but mostly just because of how shady and dishonest the whole thing was...

Just try putting yourself in his shoes for a second—let's see what that looks like. You're an athlete with actual talent, but the US doesn't have the infrastructure to help you develop it. So, the Americans offer you a chance to train with them. At some point, once they see you're actually good, they tell you they want you to represent them. You work out a two-year deal to delay the final decision, and they agree. Why wait? Because you don't want to just walk away from your American roots that easily.

Two years pass, you're winning medals left and right, and then the moment of truth arrives. The Americans tell you that you have to choose now, because without citizenship, you can't keep training with them. So you knock on the door back home. But you already knocked once before, and they promised you a year ago they’d fix up the facilities. Great. Except nothing has moved an inch in a full year. So you knock again.

This time they offer $100, but there's no agreement with the Americans, no deal with a different coach, no arrangement with any other country to use their training resources. There is $67 for a coach, which is fine, I guess. But from $100, you're supposed to cover competition fees, travel, hotels, skis, rifles, gear, technicians—there isn't even a physical therapist (edit: and where is the money for training abroad?). It's obvious that's not enough to cover everything, but the real kicker is that you don't even know where you'll be training. Probably on some local hills or poorly maintained trails. They'll fix the tracks "one fine day," they say. Yeah, sure. They said that before.

It's pretty clear you're losing ground, and under these conditions, medals aren't happening anymore. You basically have two choices: stay and rot, or leave and compete for the Americans.

I don't see a dilemma at all. If someone actually has athletic ambition, in a situation like this, they have to leave.

Jessica Davis12 said:😕
So, I guess you've seriously never heard anyone say they'd walk over a mountain of bodies just to get something done? I mean, come on—it's a classic. It's one of those expressions that just sticks with you, right? I don't know, maybe it's just me, but there’s something about that kind of raw, unapologetic determination that feels... well, intense, I suppose. Anyway, just a thought. 😬

I mean, I heard what you were saying, but honestly? It doesn't really apply to what's actually happening here—so, I guess your comment is kind of missing the mark entirely.

Jessica Davis12 said:I mean, hopefully you get the difference between just grinding away at some random startup and actually playing for the national team. It’s not even really the same league, I guess. 😕

I don't really see the fundamental difference here—not really. I mean, besides the fact that an athlete is constantly under a microscope where every little move gets scrutinized, whereas if some regular guy does something just to line his own pockets, people just shrug and call it fine. I guess we expect athletes to be like Jesus or something, while the average Joe can do whatever he wants and everyone thinks it’s perfectly okay.

The real question here—and I mean this quite sincerely—is whether you actually see the massive disconnect between these two totally cookie-cutter ways of looking at things? It feels like both sides are just following some pre-written script, you know? I guess it’s worth wondering if anyone is even seeing the mismatch there.

Jessica Davis12 said:this isn't about making life difficult for anyone—it’s more of a side effect.

...

so you basically think some American institution should just bend over backwards for someone just so they don't have a hard time?
I mean, honestly, that's just not how things work—not in sports, and probably not much else in life, either. 🤷

Actually, I don't see any instance where the US government went out of its way to cause trouble for an athlete who took citizenship and played for our national teams. Do you actually have even one example?

Basically, the rule is: don't mess with the athletes.

Just picture this scenario: you finally land that absolute dream job overseas. But then the government blocks your paperwork 😕 because—get this—it turns out you’re basically a traitor just for working and paying taxes in another country, right?