Lisa Jackson7 said:I was trying to step outside of that "technical" box you mentioned—which I get is way too narrow for some people—but that doesn't mean I'm trying to lump everything together like religion, spirituality, ideology, culture, or worldviews into one big mess. That would just be too vague.
There are tons of examples of systems labeled as "spiritual" that distance themselves from organized religion—you see plenty of folks on this forum like that—yet they still lean heavily on clearly religious practices, making religion and spirituality pretty much indistinguishable by those markers.
Can you give me some actual examples? I haven't been hanging around this forum long enough...
A concrete example. In your opinion, is it moral to run experiments—say, non-human ones that are extremely painful or even fatal—on animals (or humans, where applicable) if it leads to a breakthrough that helps the majority in the future?
Personally, when it comes to people, it's absolutely not moral... but living creatures should probably have some kind of moral status depending on how complex they are. So, bacteria, fruit flies, or plants... the higher up the chain you go, the bigger the gray area gets.
Also, we should be ensuring they get the best treatment possible with minimal suffering, while looking for alternatives to experimentation whenever we can.
The thing is, practice matters way more for these definitions than just the theory.
Lisa Jackson7 said:I was trying to step outside of that "technical" box you mentioned—which I get is way too narrow for some people—but that doesn't mean I'm trying to lump everything together like religion, spirituality, ideology, culture, or worldviews into one big mess. That would just be too vague.
There are tons of examples of systems labeled as "spiritual" that distance themselves from organized religion—you see plenty of folks on this forum like that—yet they still lean heavily on clearly religious practices, making religion and spirituality pretty much indistinguishable by those markers.
Can you give me some actual examples? I haven't been hanging around this forum long enough...
A concrete example. In your opinion, is it moral to run experiments—say, non-human ones that are extremely painful or even fatal—on animals (or humans, where applicable) if it leads to a breakthrough that helps the majority in the future?
Personally, when it comes to people, it's absolutely not moral... but living creatures should probably have some kind of moral status depending on how complex they are. So, bacteria, fruit flies, or plants... the higher up the chain you go, the bigger the gray area gets.
Also, we should be ensuring they get the best treatment possible with minimal suffering, while looking for alternatives to experimentation whenever we can.
For instance, even Abhinavagupta wrote about that specific distinction. You've got spiritual practices like brahmabhava, dhyana, and dharana—with brahmabhava being the top tier, followed by dhyana, and then dharana. If you actually work on these psycho-spiritual practices, they sharpen the mind and eventually lead to self-realization (basically, knowing God). On the flip side, religious practices—think rituals, prayers, hymns, pilgrimages, or worshiping idols—actually dull the mind. They’re built on dogma and ignorance, and most importantly, they don't lead to self-realization because they aren't connected to it. Religious practices are basically ranked by how useless they are (and honestly, none of them are "good"), with idol worship being the absolute worst—since that's really just dharana directed at a physical object made of dead matter.
Also, spirituality and mysticism focus on the "here and now" (things like nirvana or samadhi—you can experience all of it in this life). Religions, though, usually deal in promises for what happens after you die (like going to heaven or hell, seeing God, or becoming one with God later on). In the spiritual tradition, your physical body is actually a "must-have" for growth and self-realization. It's not something viewed negatively, like a punishment, a lie, or a sin, which is how a lot of religions (and even some "spiritual" groups that try to distance themselves from the word religion) tend to see it. If someone hasn't achieved self-realization while they're alive and using their brain, hormones, and nervous system, it's pretty unlikely they'll suddenly pull it off after death. It’d be pretty silly to think you could learn multiplication tables by sleeping through a deep slumber where there's no stimulus or thought. It would be just as ridiculous to say someone should pray for the ability to multiply, or that if they fart twice and light three candles, they'll suddenly understand math. Or that if they go to Times Square and scream Allah Akbar at the top of their lungs, God will grant them mathematical skills. Or that building a statue of the number 10 and bowing to it every day will teach them how to multiply. Just plain silly.