2022 Australian Grand Prix: Melbourne - April 10th

graniteharbor502 said:Based on driving skill. Not even mentioning all those previous seasons where Leclerc was basically invisible, and he's only showing something now because he finally has a dominant car. Plus, Max still managed to outmaneuver him in a slower car back in Saudi Arabia.

Oh, please... What car was he supposed to be competitive in to challenge the leaders? That 2021 tank that was trailing Mercedes by 300 points and Red Bull by 280?
Or that 2020 disaster where Ferrari was basically the sixth-best team on the grid?
2019 was the only year since Leclerc joined Ferrari where they actually had a decent car, and that was only his second season in Formula 1. He was a rookie! He was just maturing as a driver...

Max has been in Formula 1 for 6 or 7 years now, and he didn't even see real results until Red Bull closed the gap to Mercedes and Ferrari dropped out of the fight entirely.

So, if we go by your logic—which is that a driver has to be visible and competitive even in a garbage car—then suddenly Max is worse than Leclerc.
Think about it. Even though he’s way more experienced, he only became champion once he had a car that could actually go toe-to-toe with Lewis, and even then, he got that little nudge from Michael Masi.
And honestly? That 2021 version of Verstappen was a better driver than this current version is... for now.

Look, let's be clear. I'm not saying Verstappen is bad. I'm just applying your own ridiculous criteria to him. Because when you argue, suddenly it's Leclerc's fault if he can't get his tires up to temp after a Safety Car restart. But meanwhile, Max isn't blamed when he struggles with tire temps in qualifying. Makes sense, right? Not really...

Leclerc is "bad" because he wasn't visible in a car that was sitting in 6th place at one point, but Max is "good" even though he only became a factor once Red Bull finally gave him a fighting chance.
When the standings suit your argument, you use those numbers. When the table doesn't fit your narrative, suddenly those numbers don't matter (like how Perez is ahead of him right now).

Maybe try picking a set of criteria and actually sticking to them for every driver before you start typing. Then maybe what you say will actually hold some weight...

Once Perez actually manages to grab a PP, we'll have our answer regarding just how much pace this year's Red Bull truly has in a single qualifying lap.

But then again, I’m a reasonable man; I'm happy to entertain other perspectives, even the completely delusional ones.

graniteharbor502 said:If we’re judging by pure driving skill... let’s not even get started on the past seasons where Leclerc was basically invisible. It feels like he’s only showing something now because he finally has a dominant car. Plus, Max still managed to outclass him back in Saudi Arabia.
Man, as for Perez, don't make me laugh. 🙄
In the race Max actually finished, he was ahead of Perez, and in both races where Max had to DNF due to car issues, he was way ahead of Perez too.

The qualifying ratio is 2-1 in Max's favor. And that’s even after Perez claimed that one lap in Saudi Arabia was the "lap of his life." Obviously, Max can go even faster, but only once Red Bull sorts out those balance issues. Even with the car being wonky right now, he's still the best of the rest. He didn't even come close to touching Perez in this race either.

So you're saying Red Bull was slower in Saudi Arabia and Max still outmaneuvered him despite having a slower car? You've gotta be kidding me.
In Saudi Arabia, Honda was absolutely blistering—the fastest engine on the grid—and even with a sub-optimal setup, the Red Bull was just cruising around the track.

He basically snatched it from him in just half a second during a race where Red Bull was actually dominating two out of three sectors thanks to that straight-line speed. And then you’ve got Ferrari getting hit with a yellow flag right in their one decent sector... Honestly, there are a million ways to spin this mess.

If nothing else, Max can at least brag about winning every single race he's finished so far this season.
A perfect 100% record.

Quote : silverviper44

graniteharbor502 said:The race was honestly pretty dull. It reminded me of those old Trulli's trains.

Speaking of which... Looking at that internal battle within Mercedes, there weren't any glaring driving errors to point to; George Russell essentially emerged as the winner simply because track conditions played into his hands. In terms of raw pace, there was virtually no difference between him and Lewis Hamilton.

Yeah. Looking back at it now, that race was pretty dull. 👎
I really hope they finally get a chance to race in Australia. 👍 That is a crucial point.

fadedwalker18 said:Were you trying to say some local bear and a guy from the Midwest just went at it?

Hold up—in your pathetic little attempt at being funny, you actually just wrote that this hyped-up Mexican electrician is somehow the crossbreed of a bear and a man!?

You’re honestly terrible. Just painfully bad.

Jason Campbell70 said:At least the neighbor's cow kicked the bucket.

There it is! Now THAT is actual humor.

Not like those pathetic attempts at electrical engineering you guys call jokes.

Nice one, kid. You actually made my trip to the Midwest a little less miserable—spent the whole day scrolling through nothing but this thread.

God bless you during these Ramadan days.

And pass along my sincere birthday wishes to Did!

Quote : silverviper44

cosmicmoose2 said:Oh, please... in which car was he actually expected to be challenging the leaders? I mean, really, were we supposed to believe he could compete in that 2021 machine, the one that was trailing Mercedes by some 300 points and sitting 280 points behind Red Bull Racing?

Is it not worth reflecting upon that particular instance in Monaco, when he drove straight into the barrier while holding the PP, effectively sabotaging his own race through such an error? During that same weekend, both Carlos Sainz and Charles Leclerc were quite vocal in their praise of the car, telling other drivers just how incredible the front-end grip truly was. It seemed to me, quite sincerely, that Ferrari possessed a car capable of taking the win at the Monaco Grand Prix, yet, in the end, who was it that walked away with the victory once again?

Quote : silverviper44

cosmicmoose2 said:Or perhaps we should look back at that 2020 season, when Ferrari seemed to be performing more like a sixth-place team than anything else?
Was 2019 not the only year since Charles Leclerc joined Ferrari that they actually possessed a superior car? It stands out so clearly when you look back at it, doesn't it? And we must remember that for Leclerc, it was merely his second season in Formula 1. He was still quite inexperienced at that stage, really just beginning to mature and find his footing as a true Formula 1 driver.

He is still in the process of maturing, I suppose.

cosmicmoose2 said:It seems to me that while Max Verstappen has been established in Formula 1 for perhaps six or seven years now, his truly dominant results only began to materialize once Red Bull Racing successfully narrowed the gap to Mercedes, particularly at the same moment Ferrari seemed to fall away from the front of the pack entirely. One has to wonder, hasn't it been a gradual evolution rather than an overnight transformation?

One might find themselves pondering why certain drivers have maintained such a prolonged presence in Formula 1, especially when considering that Leclerc is essentially the same age as them. And if we look back at Max Verstappen, wasn't there already such extensive discussion as far back as 2016 regarding his inevitable trajectory toward becoming a world champion?

Quote : silverviper44

cosmicmoose2 As specified by silverviper44: So, if we were to strictly apply the criteria you've laid out—the idea that a driver must remain visible, capable, and genuinely competitive even when they are struggling in an inferior car—then one is forced to the inescapable conclusion that Max is actually a lesser talent than Leclerc. It is quite curious when one considers that, despite possessing far greater experience, he only truly ascended to the championship once he finally had a car on par with Lewis Hamilton's—and even then, one cannot ignore that little nudge from Michael Masi.

Are we truly discussing Max Verstappen, a driver who has managed to secure victories in every single season since joining Red Bull Racing, even during those difficult stretches when that very same Red Bull was merely sitting in third place within the constructors' standings? It makes one wonder about the sheer consistency required for such a feat. Could someone please remind me, if you wouldn't mind, exactly how many wins Charles Leclerc managed to pull off last year during the period when Ferrari was struggling as the third-best team on the grid? 🍿

cosmicmoose2 said:And that Verstappen from 2021 is actually a better driver than this current version from 2022, if we are being honest.

If you ask me, the only real difference here is that this version of Verstappen is wrestling a much less reliable car than what he had back in 2021. Because, just like last year, if his car doesn't break down, Verstappen consistently finds himself sitting in first or second place, doesn't he?

cosmicmoose2 said:Look, let’s be clear about what is happening here. I am not suggesting that Verstappen is a bad driver; rather, I am simply applying the exact same logic you use for Leclerc to him. For instance, when you argue, it is suddenly Leclerc's fault if he fails to get his tires up to temperature after a Safety Car restart, yet somehow, Max isn't held responsible when he struggles to warm his tires during qualifying.

When I previously mentioned that Leclerc was at fault for those tire temperature issues, I was merely reiterating my point that the Ferrari is a far more stable car with higher downforce, making it gentler on its tires—which is precisely why it takes longer to reach that optimal operating temperature.

cosmicmoose2 said:Leclerc is considered poor because he wasn't prominent in a car that was briefly sitting in sixth place, whereas Max is viewed as great even though he only became a constant threat once Red Bull finally gave him a competitive machine.

But Max proved his talent while driving for Toro Rosso and Red Bull Racing as well. I have already pointed out the statistic where he beat Carlos Sainz—a driver older than himself—using the exact same car in his very first season with a record of 49 to 18. And we are talking about the same Carlos Sainz who managed to outscore Leclerc last year. Furthermore, I have noted that Max was winning races even when Red Bull was sitting third in the constructors' standings, a feat that Leclerc simply hasn't achieved.

cosmicmoose2 said:It seems that whenever your argument aligns with the constructors' or drivers' standings, you rely heavily on those numbers; yet, the moment the table doesn't suit your narrative, you claim those figures are irrelevant (like how Sergio Perez is currently ahead).

Perez is ahead simply because his car only suffered a failure once, not because he is driving better than Verstappen. If neither of them had experienced mechanical issues, Max would have a tally of 2-1-2 and Perez would have 4-4-3, so I suppose it is up to you to decide which metrics actually matter.

cosmicmoose2 As specified by silverviper44:
Perhaps one should first take the time to truly crystallize a set of criteria, wouldn't you agree? Only once those standards are firmly established and then applied with absolute consistency to every single driver can what is written actually carry any meaningful weight or authority.

My criteria are quite clear.

Casey Hill57 said:Are you suggesting that Red Bull was actually slower in Saudi Arabia, and that Max managed to outmaneuver everyone despite having a less competitive car—all while somehow managing to stay in one piece?
Was it not truly remarkable how Honda possessed such overwhelming pace during the US Grand Prix? They were quite clearly the fastest engine on the entire grid, and even while dealing with a series of suboptimal setup choices, Red Bull Racing still managed to dominate the circuit with such ease.

Does anyone happen to have a fantasy league entry for this race? 🙂

cosmicmoose2 As if we haven't seen this pattern unfold before? One begins to wonder if anyone in the paddock truly understands the gravity of what is happening right under their noses. Is it possible that we are witnessing a fundamental shift in how these teams approach strategy, or are we simply watching history repeat itself with more expensive machinery? It feels as though we are circling the same drain, waiting for a resolution that never seems to arrive, much like those endless afternoons spent waiting for a storm that refuses to break. Does anyone else feel that sense of quiet, mounting frustration, or am is it just my own tendency to overanalyze the subtle shifts in momentum?
He essentially outmaneuvered him in a mere 0.5 seconds during a race where Red Bull Racing held the advantage in two out of the three sectors due to their superior straight-line speed. To make matters even more complicated, Ferrari was hampered by a yellow flag right in the middle of their only truly fast sector. Then again, one could interpret these circumstances in many different ways, couldn't they?

Given that he was piloting a significantly slower car than Charles Leclerc—which has become undeniably apparent to everyone watching—one might be inclined to suggest that he essentially provided him with a masterclass in driving technique. 👍

stormybadger8 said:If we're talking about pure pace, Max has been bad this season—and I mean really bad. I don't think I've ever seen him struggle like this.
I don't mean he's making stupid mistakes like hitting walls or taking out other drivers, which used to happen. He's just slow.
I have no idea why, but it isn't Red Bull being slower than Ferrari; it's Max himself who seems to be lagging behind.

My God, just look at what Perez is doing with that car in qualifying. Here is Perez, a guy who was never, ever good at qualifying and almost always got outclassed by his teammates.
And on those rare occasions he actually beat them, it was usually because he was being incredibly gentle with his tires...

So, either Max is slow and struggling in qualifying, or Perez is on something, because suddenly he’s fast enough to outpace Max, even though qualifying has always been Max's specialty...

Max just can't get the car to connect with him. Tire management isn't typically an issue for him, but to excel there, he needs a solid setup. It's obvious he can't find the right balance, whether it's for the race or qualifying.

Raymond Anderson4 said:Max just can't get the car to cooperate. I don't think tire management is his issue—he's usually solid there—but he needs a better setup to actually feel anything. Clearly, he can't get the car dialed in, whether it's for qualifying or the race itself.

Are you kidding me?

Out of three races, the car broke down in two.

And in that one single race where the car actually held together, he won.

It's not about Max "connecting" with the car—it's about the car being a total disaster when it comes to reliability.

ruggedhawk20 said:What are you even talking about?

Out of three races, his car broke down in two.

In the one single race where the car actually held together, he won.

The issue isn't how Max handles the car; it's how the car handles its own reliability.

But before the DNF, he was nowhere to be seen. He couldn't match Charles's (Ferrari's) rhythm at all.

Sure, he had grip issues, but even if he didn't, that doesn't change the fact they lack Ferrari's race pace.

For some reason, they had decent race pace on the hard compound in Saudi Arabia. They just couldn't keep up during that first stint.

I don't get why everyone is suddenly putting Leclerc on a pedestal. In Formula 1, the car comes first; the driving skill follows. Look at the influencers—they vanish the moment the car isn't dominant, yet they were treated like gods when the machinery was unstoppable. It’s the same logic with Bottas; I'm convinced he would have crushed it if he had been given a fair shot in that ultra-dominant car. Remember how solid he was at Williams? He isn't doing poorly at Alfa Romeo either, and I suspect he'll only get better once he finally moves past the mental toll Mercedes put him through.

Don't get me wrong, I love Ferrari. It's great to see them build such a competitive car, and I genuinely hope they keep iterating throughout the season to clinch the championship.

As for Max Verstappen, I'm not a fan, but you have to admit the guy is lightning fast. When he's in a quick car, nobody can touch him on track—something he proved quite clearly when he secured the world title last year.

Look, I’m not saying I’m his biggest fan, but I am pulling for him—well, more specifically, I’m rooting for Ferrari. Honestly, the condescending attitude from some people on these forums drives me nuts... acting like Max only wins because he’s a god, while everyone else exclusively wins just because of their car.

Just to remind you, our friend here claimed "it's all about the car," but apparently, that rule doesn't apply to Max.

I'm not necessarily claiming Leclerc is a better driver than Max, but it's just ridiculous to argue that he beats him (and he would've beaten him in those two races where Max's DNF happened) purely because of the car, implying Max would just smoke him otherwise.

You can actually see how much Leclerc has improved since his first season at Ferrari, and let's be real, Ferrari isn't dominating anything. They have a good car, sure, but it's nothing dominant. That massive gap in pace was really only visible during the Grand Prix of Miami. Though, even then, I'm not sure if Ferrari is just naturally faster on that track or if Red Bull just benefited more from the removal of the 4th DRS zone. Personally, I'd bet on the latter, because Max had a slightly better race pace than Leclerc during practice, before they even messed with the DRS zones.
Even Sergio Perez mentioned that Ferrari was only stronger in Miami and that they're pretty much neck-and-neck everywhere else...
Max fans can get so annoying sometimes with that "us vs. them" mentality. When he loses, they can't stay objective for even a second. They just go straight to making excuses that he simply couldn't do anything against a way faster car.
And honestly? Max isn't driving as well as he did back in 2021. Especially in qualifying... the numbers don't lie.

Every single driver on the grid has the skill to be here; you don't just pick up an F1 license on eBay. You earn it through results in the junior series, which serves as your ticket to the top level.

The real variable is the machinery. George Russell wasn't anywhere on the grid in previous seasons because he was stuck in a Williams, yet suddenly he looks elite just because he's in a Mercedes.

So, like I said before: it’s car, car, car, car, then driver.

Yeah, but you're throwing out examples of massive performance gaps between cars as an argument during a season where two drivers actually have nearly identical machinery. When the cars are this evenly matched, that’s when true racing skill and a driver's actual headspace really start to matter...

So, that whole logic of yours—claiming George Russell is way faster in a Mercedes than he was in a Williams—just doesn't hold water. It's totally irrelevant when you look at the fight between Charles Leclerc and Max Verstappen in the cars they're running right now.

graniteharbor502 said:Yeah, in the one where he slammed into the wall at Monaco while having PP and basically threw the race away because of it. Both Sainz and Leclerc were actually praising the other drivers for having incredible front-end grip that weekend. Ferrari had a car capable of winning in Monaco, and who ended up taking it in the end?

In the end, Red Bull won—and they're the best car on the grid this season, right? Since we’re looking back at the Monaco Grand Prix, let's take a look at Max's track record there:

2015 - Qualified behind Sainz (who was just 0.3s behind Leclerc in qualifying back in 2022). Ends up with a DNF after a crash, while Sainz scores points.

2016 - Driving the best car in Monaco. He struggles while his teammate dominates qualifying. Then, during the race, Max has another collision and gets a DNF, all while Ricciardo cruises to victory (though Red Bull eventually forgot how to prep tires during their pit stops 🤣).

2017 - Finally nails qualifying, but loses out to Ricciardo in the race (honestly, mostly due to strategy, he had the pace).

2018 - Back in the best car in Monaco. Struggles again while his teammate dominates qualifying. Sounds like a copy-paste of 2016? Well, it basically was, except he actually finished the race this time (though outside the points) and Ricciardo took the win.

2019 - With the best chassis, he qualifies 3rd. Finishes the race in 4th, just behind Ferrari.

2020 - No race.

2021 - Qualifies 2nd in the top car, and finally, he gets the win.

Looking at the data, Max's references in Monaco aren't exactly stellar, even in Newey's Red Bull. We see crashes and DNFs while Ricciardo (whom Lando Norris absolutely dominates) is busy grabbing poles and wins.

Ask yourself why he's been in Formula 1 for so long when Leclerc is essentially his contemporary. Even back in 2016, people were already calling Max the future world champion.

It's because he was an exceptional talent, and also because his dad, Jos, pushed for a direct jump into Formula 1 without going through the junior formulas—a move only Helmut Marko and Red Bull accepted, whereas Mercedes wouldn't touch it.

Are we really talking about Max Verstappen, who has been racking up wins every single season since joining Red Bull, even when they were sitting as the third-best team in the standings? Remind me, how many wins did Leclerc grab last year when Ferrari was the third-fastest car? 🍿

Every year, Max Verstappen's Red Bull has had a car capable of taking pole position on specific tracks, like Monaco, Canada, or Mexico—where engine power levels out and the high-downforce cars dominate. Leclerc only really had that kind of car in 2019. Sure, he could have snatched a win at Silverstone last year, but Ferrari has almost always been much further behind Red Bull/Mercedes than Red Bull was to, say, the field back from 2016 to 2020 when Max was grabbing those occasional wins.

I’d argue the only real difference here is that this Verstappen is driving a much less reliable car than the one from 2021. Because just like last year, if his car actually holds together, Max is walking away with 1st or 2nd place.

He’s driving worse. Either that, or Sergio is driving significantly better, but the gap between them is tiny considering Sergio was losing quite a bit to Esteban Ocon in qualifying.

Max showed what he could do back in his Toro Rosso and Red Bull days. I’ve already pointed out that he beat Sainz—a driver older than him—in the exact same car during his very first season, with a 49:18 margin. And we're talking about the same Sainz who pulled more points than Leclerc last year. I also mentioned that Max was pulling wins even when Red Bull was sitting as the third fastest car on the grid. Leclerc just couldn't pull that off.

Back in 2015, Sainz was faster in qualifying, 9 to 8, but their race results when both finished were 6-5 in favor of Sainz. Sainz had 7 DNFs while Max had 4, and when you're stuck at the tail end of the midfield like they were, if you grab a fourth or fifth place while your teammate hits a DNF, that point gap widens pretty quickly. For comparison, Leclerc had a 13-9 advantage in qualifying and was 14-7 in races when both finished.

That’s what happened to Leclerc last year, but unlike 2015 where "luck" seemed to favor Sainz, in 2021 it’s working heavily against him. Every single time the Ferrari is actually good, Leclerc ends up with a tragic result (Monaco, Canada, Sochi, Spa). Despite all that, without a single DNF to his name, Sainz is still only 5 points ahead. When Binotto mentions that Leclerc lost "about 60 points due to bad luck," that says everything you need to know.

If we're playing by those rules, you could say Ricciardo beat Max 2-1 over three seasons in terms of total points, even though Lando Norris is making him look bad for the second year in a row.

Perez is ahead simply because his car only broke down once, not because he actually drove better than Verstappen. If neither of them had mechanical issues, Max would be 2-1-2 and Perez would be 4-4-3, so you can decide for yourself what matters and what doesn't.

But why don't you apply that same logic to Leclerc and Sainz last year? Or Ricciardo in 2018 (which would make it 3-0 for Ricciardo)?

My criteria are very straightforward.

I'm afraid they aren't.

Since he was driving a slower car than Leclerc—which is incredibly obvious now—we can basically say he gave him a masterclass in driving. 👍

I think Leclerc is the one giving the driving lessons this year. Just look at where Sainz finished behind Max. Since Sainz is a better driver than Perez, we can draw a parallel to see which car was actually faster in Saudi Arabia. ☕

Quote : silverviper44

silverviper44 said:Look, every single F1 driver has legit skills—otherwise they wouldn't even be in the seat. You don't just buy an F1 license on eBay; you earn it through pure results in the junior series, which is basically your golden ticket to the big leagues.

It all comes down to the car—period. Russell wasn't exactly tearing it up the last few seasons while he was stuck in that Williams, but now that he’s behind the wheel of a Mercedes, suddenly he's a superstar.

Like I already said—it's all about the car, the car, the car, the car... and then the driver.

Yeah, tell me about it... especially Stroll, Nicholas Latifi, and Mazepin.

silverviper44 said:Look, let’s be real: every single driver on the grid has incredible driving skills. There's just no other way they'd ever make it to Formula 1. You don't exactly go onto eBay and buy an F1 license; that's not how this works. You earn your way up through results in the junior series, and those performances are what actually serve as your ticket to the big leagues.

It really all comes down to the car you're sitting in. Honestly, looking at George Russell's performance over the last few seasons, he wasn't exactly making waves when he was behind the wheel at Williams. Now, suddenly, he looks like a top-tier talent? It’s pretty obvious that once he stepped into that Mercedes, everything changed.

So, like I was saying before, it all comes down to this: the car, the car, the car, the car, and then the driver.

I mean, if you've been following this sport for more than a year, how is this not obvious? At the end of the day, the car is about 90% of the equation, talent accounts for maybe 9%, and then you've got that tiny 1% of pure luck. Usually, after one or two seasons, that luck factor tends to even out. Once the cars are performing at the same level, then—and only then—does that damn talent actually become the deciding factor.

George Russell is pure talent. Seriously, a massive talent. Anyone who actually bothered to follow his junior career in Formula 1 could have seen from a mile away that we were looking at a phenomenal driver. It’s no wonder he ended up landing a seat with the top team. Compare that to someone like Esteban Ocon—look, he's a good driver and definitely has talent, but he just doesn't seem to be in that elite inner circle where you can actually jump in and replace anyone. Even if Mick was a junior driver for years, he still isn't breaking into those top-tier seats.

George Russell is driving right on Lewis Hamilton's tail, and honestly, Lewis is such an incredible talent—even if he’s maybe a little slower now than he was back in his absolute prime. But look, if you take someone like Nicholas Latifi, Lance Stroll, or Tsunoda and throw them into Mick's car, we'll find out pretty quickly whether it's just the car, the car, the car.

cosmicmoose2 said:Sure, but you're using massive performance gaps between cars as an argument during a season where both drivers are actually in equal machinery. When the cars are balanced, true racing skill and a driver's mental state actually start to matter.

So, saying George Russell is faster in a Mercedes than he was in a Williams doesn't really hold water, since it doesn't apply to the current battle between Charles Leclerc and Max Verstappen in their current cars.

How is that not true? They weren't fighting when Leclerc had a bad car; they're fighting now that he finally has a good one.