2017 NASCAR Season

I'm not really a Red Bull fan, and I think Ricciardo gets too much credit, but you can't deny that he and Max are currently the best driver duo on the grid.

mellowtiger83 said:Ricciardo is being remarkably bold with his chatter. I didn't expect such aimless blather from him; he’s heard the rumors, he knows the landscape, and yet here we are. As for his comments regarding the optimal driver lineup, I shall refrain from commenting entirely. There is an old saying for situations just like this: "the higher they fly, the harder they fall."

Now, I suppose our resident forum visionary will step up to declare exactly who will be going toe-to-toe with Hamilton. It will be nothing more than the Ferrari duo, perhaps with Max occasionally inserting himself into the fray, and that will be that.

I've heard from plenty of other sources that Red Bull has the best lineup too, so I don't see why you're so bothered by it👋

And it's not just coming from Rick—the whole Red Bull crew is hinting at it, from Max to Horner and Newey. They're all talking big, yet somehow you're the only one staying quiet.

Now our resident forum visionary is going to tell us exactly who’ll be fighting Hamilton—it’ll be nothing but the Ferrari duo, with Max occasionally jumping in, and that’s it.

🤣

Hey, just so you know, I'm keeping a file on everything you say😂

northerncobra31 said:I'm not really a Red Bull fan, and I think Ricciardo gets too much credit, but you can't deny that he and Max are currently the best driver duo on the grid.

+10

stormybadger8 said:What's there even to say...
Look at Red Bull's driver lineup. Combined, they've got 25 podiums, 5 wins, 9 Fl's, and even a P1...
In what alternate universe could any other team pull together a better duo? Their stats are so insane, nobody else is even in the same zip code.😍

All I'll say is: You can't live off old glory forever, buddy.👋

northerncobra31 said:I'm not really a Red Bull fan, and I think Ricciardo gets too much credit, but you can't deny that he and Max are currently the best driver duo on the grid.

Back in 2016, RB was basically the undisputed second-best car, and that was purely thanks to Renault. On its own merit? Damn, that car was leagues ahead of everyone else.
The way that RB carved through corners and stayed planted was unreal compared to the rest of the field...
At the end of the day, you could have put any two drivers in that seat and they’d look like a championship lineup. Like, if Sainz and Kvyat were in the RB, and Ricciardo and Max were in the STR...
People just assume anyone driving a Mercedes is automatically elite because Mercedes is so dominant. It’s like people think every result is just a byproduct of the car, rather than the skill.
Meanwhile, everyone else struggles to show anything because their cars are garbage. But the moment someone even looks like they might challenge Mercedes, people start calling it "god-tier driving," even though it wasn't even impossible that the RB was actually faster than the Mercedes on certain tracks...

For me, that Ricciardo and Max combo wasn't any more impressive than the lineup at Manor or even Pascal and Ocon. Honestly, scoring points in a Manor looked harder than winning in an RB. Getting a Manor into Q2 felt like a bigger achievement than seeing an RB take pole...
Sure, Ricciardo and Max flashed some brilliance here and there and had some decent results, but consistency? Zero. Zilch.
If they actually had a dominant car, would either of them even be a champion? Hell, they both only had maybe 50% of those "great" races all season. Look at the stats: one on a podium, the other barely scraping 6th or 7th, sometimes even outside the top 10. It’s not the car, guys.

And look, I can't stand Alonso, but in that absolute wreck of a McLaren, he looked better than Max and Ricciardo combined. Seriously, it was almost shocking he even had the guts to sit in that thing, let alone drive it the way he did...

neonfox65 said:I've heard from plenty of other sources that Red Bull has the best lineup too, so I don't see why you're so bothered by it👋

And it's not just coming from Rick—the whole Red Bull crew is hinting at it, from Max to Horner and Newey. They're all talking big, yet somehow you're the only one staying quiet.

Now our resident forum visionary is going to tell us exactly who’ll be fighting Hamilton—it’ll be nothing but the Ferrari duo, with Max occasionally jumping in, and that’s it.

🤣

Hey, just so you know, I'm keeping a file on everything you say😂

Obviously, that carries massive weight because you'd expect Max, Ricci, Horner, or Newey to actually admit that Red Bull's lineup is weaker than...🙂🤣
Good luck finding any reason for someone at Red Bull to say something like that. Anything else would be incredibly weird, 🤦

—and honestly, even just looking at the car itself, it was way better...

Some people argue that the Mercedes was the best because of that active suspension. But I don't care if the Red Bull chassis was superior—it didn't matter since they didn't have an engine that could actually keep up. Basically, Mercedes had the better package by a mile... there's no point trying to split the chassis and the engine into two separate things.

ultimately, any two drivers sitting in that thing would've looked like a dream lineup—like if you put Carlos Sainz and Daniel Ricciardo together, or Max Verstappen and Ricciardo in another seat...

🤦 Good grief, I can't believe what I'm reading. If that were true, why wouldn't they just call those top-tier guys to drive instead of who's currently in the Red Bull seats?🤦 What are you even talking about? It's unbelievable. Ricciardo built his reputation back in 2014 when he absolutely crushed a four-time champ in his own team, and Max is a literal prodigy...

while the others struggle to show anything because their car is so weak, any threat to the Mercedes is automatically treated like world-class driving—even though it's not impossible that the Red Bull was actually better than the Mercedes on certain tracks...

Which tracks? Where was the Red Bull actually better than the Mercedes? Ricciardo only pulled off a pole in Monaco. In Spain and Malaysia, they won just because the Mercedes cars dropped out. Seriously, saying stuff like that is just wild...

Even if they were in a dominant car, would any of them have actually become a champion?

Okay, now you're just sugarcoating things. How can you even write such nonsense without feeling bad about it?

And look, I’m not even a fan of Alonso, but in that junk McLaren, he looked way better than Max and Ricciardo combined... honestly, it was surprising he even had the grit to sit in that car, let alone drive it the way he did...

Well, Alonso himself said he considers Ricciardo the best driver in F1. Does that mean nothing to you?

stormybadger8 said:Obviously, that carries massive weight because you'd expect Max, Ricci, Horner, or Newey to actually admit that Red Bull's lineup is weaker than...🙂🤣
Good luck finding any reason for someone at Red Bull to say something like that. Anything else would be incredibly weird, 🤦

Look, I'm not talking about the driver lineup🤦 🤦 🤦Gosh...

I'm talking about all the hints that RB might actually be competitive.

neonfox65 said:

—and honestly, even just looking at the car itself, it was way better...

Some people argue that the Mercedes was the best because of that active suspension. But I don't care if the Red Bull chassis was superior—it didn't matter since they didn't have an engine that could actually keep up. Basically, Mercedes had the better package by a mile... there's no point trying to split the chassis and the engine into two separate things.

ultimately, any two drivers sitting in that thing would've looked like a dream lineup—like if you put Carlos Sainz and Daniel Ricciardo together, or Max Verstappen and Ricciardo in another seat...

🤦 Good grief, I can't believe what I'm reading. If that were true, why wouldn't they just call those top-tier guys to drive instead of who's currently in the Red Bull seats?🤦 What are you even talking about? It's unbelievable. Ricciardo built his reputation back in 2014 when he absolutely crushed a four-time champ in his own team, and Max is a literal prodigy...

while the others struggle to show anything because their car is so weak, any threat to the Mercedes is automatically treated like world-class driving—even though it's not impossible that the Red Bull was actually better than the Mercedes on certain tracks...

Which tracks? Where was the Red Bull actually better than the Mercedes? Ricciardo only pulled off a pole in Monaco. In Spain and Malaysia, they won just because the Mercedes cars dropped out. Seriously, saying stuff like that is just wild...

Even if they were in a dominant car, would any of them have actually become a champion?

Okay, now you're just sugarcoating things. How can you even write such nonsense without feeling bad about it?

And look, I’m not even a fan of Alonso, but in that junk McLaren, he looked way better than Max and Ricciardo combined... honestly, it was surprising he even had the grit to sit in that car, let alone drive it the way he did...

Well, Alonso himself said he considers Ricciardo the best driver in F1. Does that mean nothing to you?

Clearly, they aren't "marketable" enough. They just don't pull in the crowds like Max and Ricci do...
And honestly, who cares? It’s not like Max and Ricci cost them any more than Sainz and Kvyat would have...

neonfox65 said:

—and honestly, even just looking at the car itself, it was way better...

Some people argue that the Mercedes was the best because of that active suspension. But I don't care if the Red Bull chassis was superior—it didn't matter since they didn't have an engine that could actually keep up. Basically, Mercedes had the better package by a mile... there's no point trying to split the chassis and the engine into two separate things.

ultimately, any two drivers sitting in that thing would've looked like a dream lineup—like if you put Carlos Sainz and Daniel Ricciardo together, or Max Verstappen and Ricciardo in another seat...

🤦 Good grief, I can't believe what I'm reading. If that were true, why wouldn't they just call those top-tier guys to drive instead of who's currently in the Red Bull seats?🤦 What are you even talking about? It's unbelievable. Ricciardo built his reputation back in 2014 when he absolutely crushed a four-time champ in his own team, and Max is a literal prodigy...

while the others struggle to show anything because their car is so weak, any threat to the Mercedes is automatically treated like world-class driving—even though it's not impossible that the Red Bull was actually better than the Mercedes on certain tracks...

Which tracks? Where was the Red Bull actually better than the Mercedes? Ricciardo only pulled off a pole in Monaco. In Spain and Malaysia, they won just because the Mercedes cars dropped out. Seriously, saying stuff like that is just wild...

Even if they were in a dominant car, would any of them have actually become a champion?

Okay, now you're just sugarcoating things. How can you even write such nonsense without feeling bad about it?

And look, I’m not even a fan of Alonso, but in that junk McLaren, he looked way better than Max and Ricciardo combined... honestly, it was surprising he even had the grit to sit in that car, let alone drive it the way he did...

Well, Alonso himself said he considers Ricciardo the best driver in F1. Does that mean nothing to you?

What part of this is nonsense?
Max was so wildly inconsistent last season he wouldn't have even won a title at Watkins Glen; Rosberg or Hamilton would've snatched it from him in an RB before he could blink 😳
And Ricci wasn't exactly crushing it either...

Do yourself a favor and actually look at the race results. We can talk trash all day, but by the end of the season, RB was sitting at 3rd or 4th in terms of raw pace, and they were never lower than 5th or 6th. Anything worse than that is a straight-up failure...

Ricci had four races where he finished way worse than 6th, and eight where he was way behind 4th...
Max had five times where he was worse than 6th plus three DNFs, plus another eight times where he was worse than 4th plus those three DNFs...
And I'm not even talking about random bad luck; the only races where both guys fell out of the top six were the European GP and Monza. After Monza, neither of them cracked the top four once...
So, maybe those two races were car issues, but the rest? That's definitely driver error...

Look, you don't win championships if you can't even bring the car home in decent shape for eight races out of the season. It's basic math.
Think about it—would Rosberg even be in the title conversation if he'd finished 3rd or worse eight times in a season? And imagine being Max, finishing 3rd or worse eight times *and* dealing with three DNFs. No shot. 🤦
"Best driver lineup" my ass. 🙂
Sure, they're flashy, they're young, they're the "next big things," and they probably have the biggest fanbases. Fine.
But realistically? With results like those, they're nowhere near the championship fight against actual top-tier drivers in equal cars, just like back in 2016.

I have to agree... looking at the lineup on paper, they really aren't the strongest group. You’ve got those seasoned veterans out there who have already secured multiple wins and even championship titles, and honestly, those are the guys who have truly paid their dues in this sport.

Looking ahead to next season, if you just judge by the roster, they barely even crack the top ten, so they really need to prove they can stay consistent and hold their own over several years. They're definitely trailing behind teams like Mercedes and Ferrari, and I'd say McLaren is sitting right there in the mix—they've got that veteran presence paired with a rising star who, in my opinion, might be the next Max Verstappen, especially since she managed to grab points in her very first outing in that car.

stormybadger8 said:Clearly, they aren't "marketable" enough. They just don't pull in the crowds like Max and Ricci do...
And honestly, who cares? It’s not like Max and Ricci cost them any more than Sainz and Kvyat would have...

What part of this is nonsense?
Max was so wildly inconsistent last season he wouldn't have even won a title at Watkins Glen; Rosberg or Hamilton would've snatched it from him in an RB before he could blink 😳
And Ricci wasn't exactly crushing it either...

Do yourself a favor and actually look at the race results. We can talk trash all day, but by the end of the season, RB was sitting at 3rd or 4th in terms of raw pace, and they were never lower than 5th or 6th. Anything worse than that is a straight-up failure...

Ricci had four races where he finished way worse than 6th, and eight where he was way behind 4th...
Max had five times where he was worse than 6th plus three DNFs, plus another eight times where he was worse than 4th plus those three DNFs...
And I'm not even talking about random bad luck; the only races where both guys fell out of the top six were the European GP and Monza. After Monza, neither of them cracked the top four once...
So, maybe those two races were car issues, but the rest? That's definitely driver error...

Look, you don't win championships if you can't even bring the car home in decent shape for eight races out of the season. It's basic math.
Think about it—would Rosberg even be in the title conversation if he'd finished 3rd or worse eight times in a season? And imagine being Max, finishing 3rd or worse eight times *and* dealing with three DNFs. No shot. 🤦
"Best driver lineup" my ass. 🙂
Sure, they're flashy, they're young, they're the "next big things," and they probably have the biggest fanbases. Fine.
But realistically? With results like those, they're nowhere near the championship fight against actual top-tier drivers in equal cars, just like back in 2016.

Unless maybe Ricci and Max are actually better drivers🙂

What do you mean by playing it safe?
Max was so incredibly inconsistent last season that he wouldn't have even snagged the title at Monza—Rosberg or Hamilton probably would've taken it from him in an RB back then. 😳
And Ricciardo wasn't exactly miles ahead either...

😂

Just look at the race results. We can talk all we want about this or that, but RB was basically sitting at 3rd or 4th in terms of power by the end of the races—and at the very least, they were in the top 5 or 6 every single race this season. Anything worse than that is a genuine failure...

Well, Ricci finished 3rd and Max—who barely even got going in the RB—finished 5th.

And it's not even about those specific races where they fell out of range. In fact, they were both outside the top 6 only at the European GP, and by the time Monza rolled around, neither of them was even in the top 4...

But Monza is a high-speed track, and the engine was only 3rd for power. Same goes for the Azerbaijan GP.

So only those two races could potentially be blamed on the car, but the rest definitely isn't the car's fault...

What "rest"? I already told you where they finished overall—what are you even talking about? 🤔

Best driver lineup my ass🙂

You have access to satellite TV and didn't catch the Autosport show? They actually agreed there—that RB has the best lineup—and that was coming from expert comedian Tibi, not some troll like you. 👋

Christian Harris11 said:I have to agree... looking at the lineup on paper, they really aren't the strongest group. You’ve got those seasoned veterans out there who have already secured multiple wins and even championship titles, and honestly, those are the guys who have truly paid their dues in this sport.

Looking ahead to next season, if you just judge by the roster, they barely even crack the top ten, so they really need to prove they can stay consistent and hold their own over several years. They're definitely trailing behind teams like Mercedes and Ferrari, and I'd say McLaren is sitting right there in the mix—they've got that veteran presence paired with a rising star who, in my opinion, might be the next Max Verstappen, especially since she managed to grab points in her very first outing in that car.

On paper, sure, nobody has a title yet—but in reality, they absolutely do. Who has a better lineup than Mercedes? They've just got Hamilton. Ferrari? It's just Vettel. McLaren? They've got a fading Alonso. The rest aren't even worth mentioning.

stormybadger8 said:Back in 2016, RB was basically the undisputed second-best car, and that was purely thanks to Renault. On its own merit? Damn, that car was leagues ahead of everyone else.
The way that RB carved through corners and stayed planted was unreal compared to the rest of the field...
At the end of the day, you could have put any two drivers in that seat and they’d look like a championship lineup. Like, if Sainz and Kvyat were in the RB, and Ricciardo and Max were in the STR...
People just assume anyone driving a Mercedes is automatically elite because Mercedes is so dominant. It’s like people think every result is just a byproduct of the car, rather than the skill.
Meanwhile, everyone else struggles to show anything because their cars are garbage. But the moment someone even looks like they might challenge Mercedes, people start calling it "god-tier driving," even though it wasn't even impossible that the RB was actually faster than the Mercedes on certain tracks...

For me, that Ricciardo and Max combo wasn't any more impressive than the lineup at Manor or even Pascal and Ocon. Honestly, scoring points in a Manor looked harder than winning in an RB. Getting a Manor into Q2 felt like a bigger achievement than seeing an RB take pole...
Sure, Ricciardo and Max flashed some brilliance here and there and had some decent results, but consistency? Zero. Zilch.
If they actually had a dominant car, would either of them even be a champion? Hell, they both only had maybe 50% of those "great" races all season. Look at the stats: one on a podium, the other barely scraping 6th or 7th, sometimes even outside the top 10. It’s not the car, guys.

And look, I can't stand Alonso, but in that absolute wreck of a McLaren, he looked better than Max and Ricciardo combined. Seriously, it was almost shocking he even had the guts to sit in that thing, let alone drive it the way he did...

Vettel—we actually had a better car than Red Bull at one point.

I don't even know who to believe anymore...🤣

Red Bull was undeniably the second fastest car on the grid from the midpoint of the season onwards; Mercedes only managed to pull ahead because of their superior power unit...
If you can't see that, you're clearly missing the obvious 🙂

Linda Peterson43 said:Red Bull was undeniably the second fastest car on the grid from the midpoint of the season onwards; Mercedes only managed to pull ahead because of their superior power unit...
If you can't see that, you're clearly missing the obvious 🙂

Maybe tell that to Vettel 🤣

Cut the PR nonsense and stop trying to draw conclusions from it. 🤦

Even if we pretend they only had three competitive cars all season—which is a joke of an argument given how the second half of the year actually went...
Both Ricci and Max were absolute garbage even with that insane power deficit. Ricci was just mediocre, and Max was basically a walking disaster when it came to consistency...

Sure, a random flash of brilliance is fine, like Max’s run in Austin, but when you're fighting for a championship, both drivers need to be capable of at least grabbing some decent points relative to their car's pace. In the 2016 season, neither Ricci nor Max could manage that. You might give Max a pass for being a rookie last year, but there's zero excuse for Ricci. 🤦

What makes it worse is that there wasn't even a clear driver hierarchy. It’s a massive embarrassment for Ricci because, despite Max's DNFs and erratic results, he still couldn't consistently finish ahead of him. That means if they were actually fighting a title against someone like Mercedes, they'd just be handing out points left and right...
When you factor in the total lack of consistency, a title isn't even on the table. Even if Red Bull finally decided to pick a clear No. 1, it wouldn't matter because neither of them can put together a steady run of results...

Linda Peterson43 said:Red Bull was undeniably the second fastest car on the grid from the midpoint of the season onwards; Mercedes only managed to pull ahead because of their superior power unit...
If you can't see that, you're clearly missing the obvious 🙂

Oh, listen to neonfox65 and his total faith in PR spin...

He actually swallowed Alonso’s nonsense about how leaving Ferrari for McLaren-Honda was such a massive career move. 😍
If he can buy into that kind of corporate garbage, anything is possible. 🤣

Have we truly allowed this entire discussion to devolve once again into nothing more than a debate regarding various brands of beer? 🙂
Let us please attempt to remain focused on the actual topic at hand.

neonfox65 said:

Vettel—we actually had a better car than Red Bull at one point.

I don't even know who to believe anymore...🤣

Did you actually bother reading the full statement?

Ferrari essentially sabotaged themselves through sheer pit wall incompetence. They threw away a winning opportunity. So much went sideways. It’s highly probable they had the edge over Red Bull, yet Ferrari handed everything right back to them and Ricciardo. The drivers aren't really to blame here. Vettel and Kimi put in masterclasses—Vettel especially—but the strategy crew completely botched it.

By 2017, Ferrari will be faster than Red Bull again, and I expect them to actually capitalize on it this time. You simply cannot afford to make these kinds of blunders two years running. The drivers are hungry enough to bite. Especially Vettel. Ferrari is moving with real ambition now. There isn't much chatter, but things are being organized behind the scenes. They're conducting some rather unexpected research. Like I said before, Ferrari is going to be the one to push Hamilton to the limit.

Vettel had a rough year last season; he seemed incredibly on edge, and it really showed in his driving style.

I expect things at Ferrari will actually get worse next season, so watching how he handles that will be interesting.

There’s zero leadership or direction at Ferrari right now. They haven't had a coherent long-term strategy for years, which is just a waste of talent.