Moderating the immigration thread

The topic of immigration is perhaps the most difficult subject we currently face when it comes to moderation on this platform. It requires constant, conscientious oversight from several of our moderators. When dealing with such volatile discussions and a high demand for intervention, it’s easy to see the effort involved. It can happen—and indeed does happen—that something is overlooked and goes unaddressed, or conversely, that an overreaction occurs. We must evaluate these individual instances and take action whenever it's determined that a mistake was made.

Personal attacks against the mods won't be tolerated, just as attacks against Muslims, racism, malicious generalizations or comparisons, fabricated arguments, and similar behaviors should not be tolerated. Regardless of one's personal opinion, such conduct must be shut down swiftly, and the moderators have the full support of the administration to enforce penalties.
As for the issue of clone accounts, there is really no need to dwell on it. I am not aware of any recent case where someone was banned as a clone when they weren't actually one. Therefore, if a large number of clones are being banned, it is simply a reflection of frequent attempts to violate the rules (and other tactics, such as trying to create the illusion of widespread consensus for certain views), rather than an issue with the moderators themselves.

Quick question—am I allowed to ask for advice here on what’s okay to say regarding the immigration debate? I just got another warning for trolling, so I really don't want to push my luck.

I was thinking about drawing a parallel between current immigration trends in Europe and the migration of Jewish refugees to Palestine due to Nazi persecution, specifically looking at how that movement impacted the local Palestinian population.

Is it cool if I bring up those historical events and make comparisons like that, or is it going to be flagged as hate speech?

Bradley White73 said:Sure, thanks. I really don't have any intention of trolling, but I suppose I need a little breathing room regarding potential strikes—you know, for those times when I think I'm being perfectly on-topic, but the mods decide it's off-topic instead. Like that time Leonas's link about the Ottoman conquests got wiped out. Later, nasmijanonebo posted in that same thread and her post stayed up, and lo and behold, the whole thing didn't turn into a total mess 🙂 Just so I don't end up banned if I misread the room.
Now I'm just waiting to see if Chuck and Bradley Sanders4 get flagged for hate speech 😬

Comparing refugees to Ottoman conquerors—people who were forced to flee their homes because looters showed up to take everything—is blatant trolling. It doesn't matter whether it sparks a massive debate or not. I know people are arguing over whether everyone involved is actually a refugee or not (as if that changes the reality for those who truly are), but in my book, comparing economic migrants to actual conquerors is just as much of a troll move.

As for Maria Booth's warning, I see it the same way. She compared people fleeing war, famine, or poverty to enter Europe with the European colonizers of America—basically hinting at crimes so massive they could be viewed as the largest genocide in history from today's perspective. If equating immigrants to people who committed those kinds of atrocities isn't inciting hatred, then I don't know what is.

William Bennett53 said:The topic of immigration is perhaps the most difficult subject we currently face when it comes to moderation on this platform. It requires constant, conscientious oversight from several of our moderators. When dealing with such volatile discussions and a high demand for intervention, it’s easy to see the effort involved. It can happen—and indeed does happen—that something is overlooked and goes unaddressed, or conversely, that an overreaction occurs. We must evaluate these individual instances and take action whenever it's determined that a mistake was made.

Personal attacks against the mods won't be tolerated, just as attacks against Muslims, racism, malicious generalizations or comparisons, fabricated arguments, and similar behaviors should not be tolerated. Regardless of one's personal opinion, such conduct must be shut down swiftly, and the moderators have the full support of the administration to enforce penalties.
As for the issue of clone accounts, there is really no need to dwell on it. I am not aware of any recent case where someone was banned as a clone when they weren't actually one. Therefore, if a large number of clones are being banned, it is simply a reflection of frequent attempts to violate the rules (and other tactics, such as trying to create the illusion of widespread consensus for certain views), rather than an issue with the moderators themselves.

Agreed. We all mess up sometimes.

Am I actually allowed to post on this forum? It feels like someone is constantly deleting my comments.

placidnomad87 said:Am I actually allowed to post on this forum? It feels like someone is constantly deleting my comments.

Like our buddy Resonator pointed out earlier, this place is for actual discussion, not just dumping links. Start participating in the conversation and you won't get flagged for being off-topic.

Bradley Sanders4 said:Like our buddy Resonator pointed out earlier, this place is for actual discussion, not just dumping links. Start participating in the conversation and you won't get flagged for being off-topic.

And then you come after me! From what I can see, I’m clearly not one of your regular, active users. You ask me to join the debate? When I try to participate, I’m immediately branded with Nazism, yet when another user acts out, they don't even get a warning—and how is that not considered trolling? It feels like you're being incredibly selective about who gets deleted and who gets banned. Honestly, I’ve had enough; I won't be bothering to comment on this forum anymore. 👎

Bradley White73 said:I have to say, I’m really feeling frustrated with how the Immigration thread is being moderated lately—it feels more like a slaughter than actual moderation. Posts are just vanishing into thin air, and there are entire pages where more than half the users are grayed out. Ever since Bradley Sanders4 took over, you can't even skim through a page anymore without the fear of needing to refresh, which honestly scares me half to death. If you actually want to read something, I guess you have to do it immediately before it disappears. I haven't been posting much on threads managed by Bradley Sanders4 or ones that aren't this "volatile," so maybe I didn't notice it sooner. But now, I just don't feel like writing anything at all; I'm constantly looking over my shoulder, watching for what Bradley Sanders4 might do next. I've actually gone ahead and deleted a few of my own posts already, because I know if I don't take them down myself, Bradley Sanders4 certainly will. 🙄 😵

I’m jumping on the bandwagon with this complaint, though if you ask me, the moderator lonebadger6 is far worse.
They’re suffocating free speech without any clear criteria at all.

Under the vague guise of "trolling," they’re deleting and banning incredibly valuable, informative posts,
and targeting users who don't even post very often.

@Bradley Sanders4
Are we talking about actual refugees here, or just economic migrants? I honestly can't tell what you're officially calling these immigrants from your last post.
I was actually typing out a response on this thread, but I gave up pretty quickly. You say anyone who tries to do that job is bound to mess up. Sure, true. But when someone actually points out where you've screwed up, instead of taking the critique, you just start handing out participation trophies for trolling and accusing everyone on the forum of staging a witch hunt against the mods.

Nicholas Watson said:@Bradley Sanders4
Are we talking about actual refugees here, or just economic migrants? I honestly can't tell what you're officially calling these immigrants from your last post.
I was actually typing out a response on this thread, but I gave up pretty quickly. You say anyone who tries to do that job is bound to mess up. Sure, true. But when someone actually points out where you've screwed up, instead of taking the critique, you just start handing out participation trophies for trolling and accusing everyone on the forum of staging a witch hunt against the mods.

Mostly refugees, but since they aren't some single, uniform group, I just stuck with the term "immigrants."

Bradley Sanders4 said:Comparing refugees to Ottoman conquerors—people who were forced to flee their homes because looters showed up to take everything—is blatant trolling. It doesn't matter whether it sparks a massive debate or not. I know people are arguing over whether everyone involved is actually a refugee or not (as if that changes the reality for those who truly are), but in my book, comparing economic migrants to actual conquerors is just as much of a troll move.

As for Maria Booth's warning, I see it the same way. She compared people fleeing war, famine, or poverty to enter Europe with the European colonizers of America—basically hinting at crimes so massive they could be viewed as the largest genocide in history from today's perspective. If equating immigrants to people who committed those kinds of atrocities isn't inciting hatred, then I don't know what is.

Agreed. We all mess up sometimes.

I always figured history was supposed to be our teacher, you know? Like we're meant to learn from it. But I guess times have changed, and now you aren't even allowed to use history as an actual argument in a debate anymore. jebiga.

Can someone give me a heads-up on which historical events are off-limits in this thread?

From what I can tell so far, talking about Ottoman conquests or the colonization of the US is a no-go, just so immigrants don't feel targeted by the comparisons, right?
Personally, I wouldn't mind if someone compared me to Americans—I definitely don't see that as hate speech and wouldn't get salty if someone called me that, but hey, I guess I can live with people thinking that way.

And what's the deal with Jewish refugees moving into Palestine? Am I allowed to bring that up? Is it okay to compare refugees fleeing modern wars to the Jewish refugees escaping death camps?

I mean, when you have to take an exam just to figure out what you’re allowed to say and what isn't, we’re basically dancing on the edge of censorship ☕ Censorship is usually the hallmark of a dictatorship. Now, which specific dictatorship? Who knows. I honestly thought I was just becoming paranoid, but I was chatting with a German woman today about this whole thing—about how people write and what gets deleted—and when I mentioned the scrubbing of content, she told me, "Well, that's just not right." I mean, okay, she's German; you'd expect her to be a bit more "by the book," but even she sees it as censorship. 🤷 But hey, what do two immigrants from two completely different countries know? They’ve ended up in a third country, commenting on a fifth and a tenth, talking about borders somewhere else... just endless chatter... ☕

In the end, we're all going to end up in the same boat ☕

Bradley Sanders4 said:Comparing refugees to Ottoman conquerors—people who were forced to flee their homes because looters showed up to take everything—is blatant trolling. It doesn't matter whether it sparks a massive debate or not. I know people are arguing over whether everyone involved is actually a refugee or not (as if that changes the reality for those who truly are), but in my book, comparing economic migrants to actual conquerors is just as much of a troll move.

As for Maria Booth's warning, I see it the same way. She compared people fleeing war, famine, or poverty to enter Europe with the European colonizers of America—basically hinting at crimes so massive they could be viewed as the largest genocide in history from today's perspective. If equating immigrants to people who committed those kinds of atrocities isn't inciting hatred, then I don't know what is.

Agreed. We all mess up sometimes.

Okay. Personally, I might have let it slide, but this explanation actually makes sense. I can see how someone would view it that way.

As for Maria Booth's point, it's the same thing. He compared people fleeing to Europe due to war, famine, or poverty with the European colonizers of America—basically hinting at crimes of such scale that, from today's perspective, could be described as the largest genocide in history. If comparing immigrants to people who committed those kinds of atrocities isn't inciting hatred, then I honestly don't know what is.
...

I just felt it was important to clear that up, so I could follow the logic and stay out of trouble. 😁 But honestly, even that would probably be considered heavy trolling rather than hate speech. Still, I suppose that's not my business, so I'll leave it to the moderators and Maria Booth to sort it out. Thanks for the reply, and I'm sorry if I went a bit overboard with my nitpicking in the thread.

@Grazia, what's wrong with me complaining twice if, in your opinion, things are too generalized and lack evidence? Not a single tree was harmed in the making of my complaints, so...😬

It feels like the moderation here is a bit too heavy-handed. Someone actually got banned just for suggesting we should have troops stationed at the border. I don't see why that's such a forbidden topic to bring up. 🤷

Who is this?

I think it’s pretty damn obvious you guys are just trying to shut me up because I managed to rack up a record 90 points in like 15 minutes.

It’s not like I was insulting anyone, being a troll, or even veering off topic. It feels more than obvious that you're just policing this thread based on some script, so maybe you should stick to the topics you actually assign us—because honestly, how else am I supposed to explain a moderator jumping in like, "okay, enough about sexual assault now"?

If people are genuinely worried about immigration due to higher crime rates in certain areas, where on earth do you get the right to ban discussions about it?!

Then I get hit with a warning for "duplicate posting." Yeah, because my previous post vanished. And how was I supposed to know it had been deleted and wasn't just one of those glitches on your supposedly high-tech servers?!

On top of that, I get flagged when, frankly, I don't even know why, and god knows I have no clue why that other post was wiped in the first place.

I just got slapped with a ridiculous warning for allegedly "trolling," when I was actually staying perfectly on topic. Honestly, if you're going to be this arbitrary, just lock the thread entirely; this whole situation is a farce and an embarrassment. I don't doubt that certain moderators are trying their hardest, but their best clearly isn't enough because they're effectively killing the discussion.

Bradley Sanders4 said:Who is this?

http://www.reddit.com/showpost.php?p=5...postcount=1649

I was honestly pretty shocked when I saw that. If you're asking for my honest opinion, it felt incredibly brutal.

Charles Wells71 said:I think it’s pretty damn obvious you guys are just trying to shut me up because I managed to rack up a record 90 points in like 15 minutes.

It’s not like I was insulting anyone, being a troll, or even veering off topic. It feels more than obvious that you're just policing this thread based on some script, so maybe you should stick to the topics you actually assign us—because honestly, how else am I supposed to explain a moderator jumping in like, "okay, enough about sexual assault now"?

If people are genuinely worried about immigration due to higher crime rates in certain areas, where on earth do you get the right to ban discussions about it?!

Then I get hit with a warning for "duplicate posting." Yeah, because my previous post vanished. And how was I supposed to know it had been deleted and wasn't just one of those glitches on your supposedly high-tech servers?!

On top of that, I get flagged when, frankly, I don't even know why, and god knows I have no clue why that other post was wiped in the first place.

One of the golden rules around here is that you don't argue with moderator warnings. That’s exactly why this subforum exists—so you can file an appeal, just like you could have sent Bradley Sanders4 a private message to ask why you got flagged or what the issue was... You ended up with a record-breaking 90 points because you ignored three separate warnings and just kept pushing back against the mods right there in the thread...

Edward Ortiz77 said:I just got slapped with a ridiculous warning for allegedly "trolling," when I was actually staying perfectly on topic. Honestly, if you're going to be this arbitrary, just lock the thread entirely; this whole situation is a farce and an embarrassment. I don't doubt that certain moderators are trying their hardest, but their best clearly isn't enough because they're effectively killing the discussion.

You got flagged for hinting at some kind of "vow of silence" or conspiracy regarding incidents involving immigrants, especially since you were trolling from a few different angles...

That story you mentioned from Index—I have no clue which one you're actually talking about since you didn't bother with a link, and honestly, I don't spend much time reading Index anyway—you compared it to that video from... 2012. It’s been years since that whole thing went down... specifically regarding that incident in... 2009. He claimed there was some kind of "vow of silence" in effect, because apparently, you won't find any of that "fresh" news on Index... or whatever the hell he was trying to imply...

And we’re looking at anti-Israel protests that aren't just limited to Islamic groups, all playing out right while the Israeli offensive on the Gaza Strip is in full swing...

Besides all that, it honestly took me about two seconds of Googling to realize there was never any kind of "conspiracy of silence" back then... everyone was reporting on it quite thoroughly, actually...

Jebiga, that’s basically the textbook definition of trolling, sorry...

lonebadger6 said:One of the golden rules around here is that you don't argue with moderator warnings. That’s exactly why this subforum exists—so you can file an appeal, just like you could have sent Bradley Sanders4 a private message to ask why you got flagged or what the issue was... You ended up with a record-breaking 90 points because you ignored three separate warnings and just kept pushing back against the mods right there in the thread...

You got flagged for hinting at some kind of "vow of silence" or conspiracy regarding incidents involving immigrants, especially since you were trolling from a few different angles...

That story you mentioned from Index—I have no clue which one you're actually talking about since you didn't bother with a link, and honestly, I don't spend much time reading Index anyway—you compared it to that video from... 2012. It’s been years since that whole thing went down... specifically regarding that incident in... 2009. He claimed there was some kind of "vow of silence" in effect, because apparently, you won't find any of that "fresh" news on Index... or whatever the hell he was trying to imply...

And we’re looking at anti-Israel protests that aren't just limited to Islamic groups, all playing out right while the Israeli offensive on the Gaza Strip is in full swing...

Besides all that, it honestly took me about two seconds of Googling to realize there was never any kind of "conspiracy of silence" back then... everyone was reporting on it quite thoroughly, actually...

Jebiga, that’s basically the textbook definition of trolling, sorry...

No, that isn't trolling; it's being uninformed. I genuinely believed it was more recent. If I was wrong, you could have pointed that out more civilly. My post was focused on something else entirely. Even as a crude reactionary as I am, I still value dignity and the protection of children. That's why I warned against the exploitation of children by certain migrants, as seen in that iconic photo where a guy and his four buddies charge a police shield with a child in his arms. Later, based on that image, it was banned 🙂 to even mention the possibility of child exploitation and the crime that comes with this kind of chaotic, uncontrolled migration. So, you completely misread my post, not to mention the unfair strike.

I stand by my view that using a dead child for clicks is the absolute bottom of journalism—it's trashy, especially when they ignore the bigger picture and objective data from actual political institutions. Personally, I found the celebration of a dead boy's dignity to be disgusting because he's being used as a tool. My only regret is that I didn't vet my link better to provide a stronger example of journalistic hypocrisy, which is rampant in this "immigration" topic. But since we're talking about trolling, you have a moderator like Meadow who writes ten-page treatises filled with misinformation, yet nobody thought to remove her from the thread, let alone give her a strike, even though she "trolls" every participant with her basic ignorance of fundamental terms.

Before that, I posted at least five links from a few days and months ago that clearly show how "assimilation" works in Western society without the media reporting on it—especially vulture-like outlets like Index, which you treat as if they're some holy authority. Who reported this? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=338_1440538789

The point is, you can't see the forest for the trees, and your sense of moderation is 🙂
You play this part of some grand liberal and humanist, yet you come at everyone on Reddit with fire and fury.