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The Criterion Collection

Started by Nicole Thomas3 · · 👁 9 views · 46 replies

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Participants Nicole Thomas3Casey Cox2Samuel Robinson2Joshua Smith5Peter Ruiz2Michael Lopez2frozenskipper12Maria Barneshiddenbear4Dennis Martin6Brandon Fox2Rachel Allen55rowdypilot53Jessica Wells2
Nicole Thomas3 Nicole Thomas3 NewcomerOP
5 messages
joined Dec 2011
#21 ·
Fassbinder's work absolutely wrecked me. For the first thirty minutes, I was sitting there thinking I was watching the most boring movie ever made, but once I finally 'acclimatized' to the pacing—that subtle, almost abrasive Fassbinder direction and the gritty, realistic design—I realized I was looking at a total masterpiece. Look, I'll be honest, it's definitely not for everyone.

http://www.criterion.com/films/27742...q=autocomplete
hiddenbear4 hiddenbear4 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Oct 2016
#22 ·
Michael Lopez2 said:It’s not that the whole movie lacks sense—it’s just certain scenes. Probably most notably the part where the brother, sister, and dying slave are prepping to escape captivity, and the sister tells her brother to just leave her behind in the woods since she'll only slow him down, but he should take the dying woman because she doesn't want to be a burden (even though he basically has to carry her the whole way). And then the sister goes off to drown herself in a lake. That scene really sticks in my craw, mostly because the sister's sacrifice should really be the emotional core of the film, but it feels pretty half-baked to me.

Plus, some of the characters just aren't particularly fleshed out. The brother, after spending years in the camp, turns into this cynical jerk who coldly brands slaves with a hot iron and wants to stay in the camp, yet one second later, he inexplicably wants to sneak out and becomes some kind of human rights activist.

Don't get me wrong—the film is touching, beautiful, and striking and all that—but I definitely don't agree that it's one of the greatest films ever made or anything like that.

SPOILERS!

When you wrote that the plot didn't make sense, it honestly sounded a little wild...

The sister's plan was to let the brother escape while she distracted the guards, which would give him more time than they would have had if they tried running together... she figured they'd both be caught immediately. And an exhausted slave isn't exactly a heavy load, right?

As for the brother's change of heart, it isn't exactly inexplicable, it's just simple storytelling. The brother grew up into a ruthless man in the camp, adapting to his surroundings and abandoning his father's lessons on mercy. But his sister calls him out on it and judges him, which hits him hard, and when they go to bury that slave, he remembers a similar moment from their childhood (that final night before the kidnapping), and his conscience finally kicks in.

The film is elliptical and doesn't try to be overly complex or demanding narratively; it's actually crafted as a folk tale. It's a story about cruelty and suffering... nothing more, nothing less. The characterization isn't operating at a deep psychological level, so there isn't much room for complex motivations regarding their shifts in behavior. This isn't meant to be a psychological drama.

Mizoguchi told that folk tale using his virtuosic cinematic language. In certain parts, he shows off his skill at creating a poetic atmosphere, while in others, he leans into a raw, naturalistic environment... the use of music is brilliant and evocative... the production design is also quite striking...
Michael Lopez2 Michael Lopez2 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Dec 2012
#23 ·
hiddenbear4 said:Spoilers!

She figured if her brother escaped on his own while she kept the guard occupied, he’d have a better shot at making it than if they tried together... She thought they'd just get caught both at once. Just an exhausted slave, nothing much to it...

I'm not so sure... Two healthy people escaping a camp versus one person dragging a half-dead captive on their shoulders? I think option B is the riskier move... 😁

hiddenbear4 said:His brother's change isn't exactly inexplicable, just dramatically straightforward. Being in that camp turned him into a ruthless man; he adapted to his surroundings and abandoned everything his father taught him about mercy. But his sister keeps calling him out on it, and he's struggling to take it. Then, when they go to bury that slave woman, he remembers a similar moment from their childhood—that final night before the kidnapping—and his conscience finally kicks in...

What strikes me as odd about this whole thing is that the turning point was just some childhood memory of picking up twigs. I have no clue why that specific moment supposedly flipped him from a total delinquent into a human rights activist, but then again, history is full of weirder coincidences... 😁

hiddenbear4 (No input provided to rewrite.)

The film feels elliptical and isn't overly demanding or complex in its dramaturgy, yet it's crafted as... Just a folk tale...It's a story about cruelty and suffering... nothing more, nothing less. The characters aren't deeply layered psychologically; there isn't much room for complex motivations here. This isn't exactly a psychological drama...

Mizoguchi's Life of Oharu feels like a similar tragedy, but unlike Sansh, it doesn't feel forced to me—it's more realistic. Even Ugets feels much more natural, despite being a ghost story. All three films I've seen from Mizoguchi have that folk tale quality, but Sansh's story just doesn't resonate with me. I think I'll try Street of Shame and some of his later work... they look pretty interesting. 🙂
hiddenbear4 hiddenbear4 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Oct 2016
#24 ·
Michael Lopez2 said:I don't know about that—you've got two healthy people escaping a camp versus one person stumbling along while dragging a half-dead captive on their shoulders. I'd say option B is definitely the riskier bet. 😁

Well, the sister mentioned she’d keep the guard occupied. A half-dead captive wouldn't be able to pull that off... if they had escaped together, the guard probably would have sprinted back to the camp to report them missing. Instead, she told him her brother would handle the funeral arrangements and they just casually strolled back toward the camp—she even reassured him that he'd be back soon. That buys them quite a bit of time that way... but honestly, there's no point in us going back and forth on this now. I'm not really a fan of these debates over plot logic anyway... it doesn't make sense to you, it makes sense to me.

Michael Lopez2 said:Mizoguchi's Oharu is a similar tragedy, but unlike Sansh, it doesn't feel forced to me—it feels more realistic. Even Ugets feels much more natural, and that one is a ghost fantasy. So far, the three Mizoguchi films I've seen feel like folk tales, but Sansh's story is the only one that didn't quite click for me. I'll try my hand at street of shame and some of his later work; those look pretty interesting. 🙂

Then there's "Chikamatsu Monogatari"... another absolute masterpiece!
Michael Lopez2 Michael Lopez2 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Dec 2012
#25 ·
Back to the thread, these are also among my favorites from Criterion so far (not including the ones already mentioned):

Giulietta degli spiriti
La strada
La dolce vita
Fiend Without a Face
Kwaidan
Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
The Killing
12 Angry Men
Picnic AT
Paths of Glory When
Woman Ascends The Stairs It's
Mad Mad Mad Mad World
Chungking express Il
il sorpasso
Nicole Thomas3 Nicole Thomas3 NewcomerOP
5 messages
joined Dec 2011
#26 ·
Michael Lopez2 said:Back to the thread—these are also sitting right up there among my all-time favorites from Criterion so far (and they haven't been mentioned yet):

Giulietta degli spiriti
La strada
La dolce vita
Fiend Without a Face
Kwaidan
Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
The Killing
12 Angry Men
Picnic AT
Paths of Glory
When
Woman Ascends The Stairs It's
Mad Mad Mad Mad World
Chungking express Il

Carl Theodor Dreyer Box Set
A Man Escaped
Eclipse Series 3 : latiti Ozu Tokyo Story Pierrot Le
Tokyo Story
Pierrot
Army of Shadows Le
Le deuxieme souffle
Jeanne Dielman
Eclipse Series 5 : The First Films of Samuel Fuller Stranger Than Paradise nadati
Stranger Than Paradise

Really hoping we get stalker on Blu-ray.
Peter Ruiz2 Peter Ruiz2 Member
20 messages
joined Oct 2014
#27 ·
Larry Thompson85 said:This Fassbinder's work absolutely wrecked me. For the first thirty minutes, I was convinced I was watching the most boring movie ever made. But once I finally "settled in" to his rhythm—that subtle, almost abrasive Fassbinder direction and the gritty, realistic design—it hit me. It's a straight-up masterpiece. Honestly, though? It’s definitely not for everyone.

http://www.criterion.com/films/27742...q=autocomplete

Maybe this is actually one of the first films about virtual worlds. Fassbinder was basically filming cyberpunk before it was even a thing. 😁
hiddenbear4 hiddenbear4 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Oct 2016
#28 ·
You're all mentioning this massive pile of incredible movies, but you're just listing them... I don't really see the point in doing that.
Peter Ruiz2 Peter Ruiz2 Member
20 messages
joined Oct 2014
#29 ·
hiddenbear4 said:You talk about a pile of great movies, but you're just listing them... I don't see the point.

Who gives a damn.
hiddenbear4 hiddenbear4 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Oct 2016
#30 ·
Peter Ruiz2 said:We're just messing around here.

I wasn't talking about you—you actually took the time to write a sentence or two about every movie you listed... honestly, it would be great if everyone else would just share a quick thought on why they love certain films. Even looking at Larry Thompson85's list, you can see a really well-defined taste emerging. You can tell what a person is into; all those names together create this really interesting stylistic thread.
Michael Lopez2 Michael Lopez2 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Dec 2012
#31 ·
hiddenbear4 said:You mention a heap of great films, but you're just listing them... I don't really see the point...

I can't be bothered to write more. As for the others, I couldn't say. 😁
Dennis Martin6 Dennis Martin6 Active Member
55 messages
joined Dec 2005
#32 ·
Is it just me, or is there basically zero representation from Chinese cinema here? 😕 We've only got two titles from Iran, and both are Kiarostami??
If 'La Grande Bellezza' and 'Blue Is the Warmest Color' get fast-tracked releases, why is Farhadi being ignored? As for India, it’s mostly just Satyajit Ray—super safe, super predictable...
Having nearly 200 titles from Japan feels totally overkill, just like forcing these "classics" down our throats... they could've left some room for Taiwan or Hong Kong. Or maybe show some genre variety, like Pinku Eiga or horror. Is there even any modern directors represented at all, besides Kore-eda with one single film??

Look, I'm just listing grievances here to keep things balanced on the thread—don't get me wrong, their releases are killer 😁
hiddenbear4 hiddenbear4 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Oct 2016
#33 ·
Which Chinese films do you think deserve a spot in the Criterion Collection? Also, I'm looking for some solid recommendations for my own watchlist. 😁

I totally agree that Iranian cinema deserves more representation—it would be so cool to get some high-quality supplements that actually let us get to know the directors, the actors, and the whole backstory of the production. Majida definitely deserves an issue, any title really, and Farhadi too... those aren't just modern Iranian gems, they're world-class classics... then there's Panahi...

As for Kiarostami, I don't quite get why they only release his newer stuff (with "Certified Copy" being Blu-ray only and "like someone in Love" in a dual format)... honestly, it would be much better if they released the so-called Koker trilogy... that's where his inspiration really lived... nowadays his work can feel a bit exhausted, maybe even a little worn out...

India, I guess, though besides Raya, I don't have much of an interest there...

Regarding Taiwan, Hsien's coming-of-age trilogy from the 80s absolutely deserves a release—those are all such great films...

Maybe we should just write them a letter... maybe add a little threatening tone at the end, you know? Like, "if you don't release this or that, there will be consequences..."
Michael Lopez2 Michael Lopez2 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Dec 2012
#34 ·
I agree they really ought to release some Chinese cinema. All they have right now is the last Chinese emperor, and an Italian directed that one anyway. So I'm not sure I follow your point about them lacking any "pure" Chinese films. 😁
hiddenbear4 hiddenbear4 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Oct 2016
#35 ·
And if having their release of someone's debut film serves as an extra bit of motivation for a director to keep pushing forward—well, then let's say Yuval Adler's ''Bethlehem'' was just a great move!
Nicole Thomas3 Nicole Thomas3 NewcomerOP
5 messages
joined Dec 2011
#36 ·
hiddenbear4 said:I wasn't talking about you, since you actually bothered to write a sentence or two about every movie you listed... honestly, it would be great if everyone else would just drop a quick note on why they love certain films. Even looking at Larry Thompson85's list, you can see a really specific, well-defined taste. You can tell exactly what this guy is into; those names together create one super interesting stylistic thread.

At the start, we just need to throw out enough bait to get people interested. Thank God the internet is packed with info on these directors and their work, so anyone can look them up. As for me? I’ve got a soft spot for refined stylists. Especially the ones who lean toward stripping down directorial technique and content to the essentials. 🙂
hiddenbear4 hiddenbear4 Newcomer
4 messages
joined Oct 2016
#37 ·
Larry Thompson85 said:Especially those ones that seem to strip away both the directorial style and the actual substance. 🙂

Yeah, I see what you mean. It's just that Godard feels like a bit of an outlier to me in that regard...
Dennis Martin6 Dennis Martin6 Active Member
55 messages
joined Dec 2005
#38 ·
hiddenbear4 said:Which Chinese films do you think deserve Criterion releases? Also, give me some recommendations. 😁

Look, since they haven't released anything yet, they could start with the classics—think 'Raise the Red Lantern' or 'Farewell My Concubine.' Then there's 'In the Heat of the Sun' (kind of like an American version of 'Dolly Bell') which always sits at the top of those Chinese film lists. After that, you've got the killer noir melodrama 'Suzhou River,' plus modern stuff like 'Still Life,' 'Blind Mountain,' and so on.
If they dropped 'King of the Children,' it would be huge—it's impossible to find a decent version of that movie anywhere.

As for recs, if you're into Majida, try hunting down 'The King of Masks.' I bet you'll dig it.

hiddenbear4 said:India and whatever else besides Raya... but I don't really have much interest there...

A couple of years ago, I was tearing into Indian cinema pretty hard, but I've watched a few interesting ones since then, so I've dialed back the hate a bit. 😁

hiddenbear4 said:Regarding Taiwan, hsien's coming-of-age trilogy from the 80s definitely deserves a release—all of them are solid pieces.

I checked those out based on your suggestion, and yeah, they totally deserve a Criterion release.
Nicole Thomas3 Nicole Thomas3 NewcomerOP
5 messages
joined Dec 2011
#39 ·
hiddenbear4 said:Yeah, I see what you mean. Only that Godard guy sticks out to me a bit here...

Making a list of top movies without Anna Karina is a losing game. 🙂 Honestly, Vivre would fit better on this list, but I just can't resist that playful energy between Belmondo and Karina, or the way Fuller and the French Riviera vibe in Pierrot.
Nicole Thomas3 Nicole Thomas3 NewcomerOP
5 messages
joined Dec 2011
#40 ·
androlog;51735790 said:Since they haven't actually dropped anything yet, they could start with some heavy hitters like 'Raise the Red Lantern' or 'Farewell My Concubine.' Then maybe hit them with 'In the Heat of the Sun'—it’s kind of like that classic American period piece everyone loves—which is always sitting at the top of those Chinese cinema lists. After that, you've got that killer noir melodrama 'Suzhou River,' and then move into modern stuff like 'Still Life' or 'Blind Mountain.'
If they released 'King of the Children,' it would be a massive deal because finding a decent version of that movie is basically impossible right now.

It'll probably be right on the money. I'm guessing dealing with Chinese studios is just a bigger headache. Since you brought up Yimo, I’d definitely throw in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_Qiu_Ju. It's a total Film enthusiast dream!

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