2013 German Grand Prix - July 7th

Emily Patel64 said:When did he even ask that?

It felt weird right from the start when Kimi was chasing him down over the radio - I have no grip man 🤷

That question popped up right before Fernando Alonso started breathing down his neck...
Specifically that "Are you sure I'm on the same tires as everyone else????" vibe.

Joseph Peterson8 said:He was right on his gearbox—less than half a second away—just before hitting the pit lane. If they had pulled the trigger on the pit stop at the same time they did for Sebastian Vettel, he probably would have come out ahead. Even if he hadn't, he would've had the entire race to hunt him down, and we actually would have had something worth watching for once.

Yeah, he was really digging in there; I honestly think he could have caught him too.

In my opinion, both Lou and Kimi had a better start. 😲🙏

ps.



🙂

Jason Campbell70 said:🤮

Maybe you should see a doctor?
Burping that much is a dead giveaway that something's wrong. 😢

Joseph Peterson8 said:He was right on his gearbox half a second before the pit entry. If they’d just pitted him like they did Vettel, he might have come out ahead. Even if he didn't, he would've had the whole race to hunt him down, and we actually would've had something worth watching.

Not likely...
You're forgetting that those blistering sector times happen on the out-lap when you're on fresh rubber...
By the time those tires are worn out, you're crawling. You make your move on the fast tires, not the old ones.😉

That's exactly why in basically every team (except Ferrari😁), the guy in the lead gets the privilege of pitting first.😉

Sure, maybe they would've been neck-and-neck all race, but it's a stretch to think Webber would've finished ahead after that pit stop—and honestly, probably not even after that, for the exact reason I just mentioned...

Dammit, Lotus was a fast car on fast tires too, and even that didn't work out for them...
It's not impossible, but I think it would've been even harder for Webber than it was for them...

But yeah, it's a fact the race would've been way more intense and definitely more fun if Webber had stayed at the very top.

stormybadger8 said:Maybe you should see a doctor?
Burping that much is definitely a sign that something is off.😢

Allergy.

Anyway:

Red Bull Racing has been fined €30,000 by the FIA for an Unsafe release involving Mark Webber during the German Grand Prix, which resulted in a cameraman getting injured.
....
The Force India has also fined Force India €5,000 for releasing Paul di Resta into the path of Toro Rosso's Jean-Eric Vergne during his first stop on lap five of the race.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108657

"Unsafe release" can cost you five thousand pounds one day, and a drive-through the next. Well, alright then.

stormybadger8 said:It’s like Lady Luck decided to bail them out just enough to make their incompetence look almost intentional. They completely nullify their own stupidity regarding that free pitstop, only to turn around and commit the most brainless error possible...
Take Fernando Alonso, for instance. He absolutely should have gone for the Soft tire during the SC period.
Imagine restarting right on the gearbox of the leading team while running tires that are barely a second faster per lap...
Look at the data: Alonso was 1.1 seconds faster than Grosjean, about 0.700 ahead of Sebastian Vettel, and 0.300 ahead of Kimi (on the softs😳)...
And at that exact moment, everyone ahead was still sitting on Medium tires.😳
Faster rubber, better top speed, and two DRS zones to play with...

Even if he had burned through those tires relatively quickly, it wouldn't have mattered. He would have held the position in front of them, and more importantly, he would have been the first one in the pits, allowing him to run fast laps in clean air... which would have coincided perfectly with when Vettel, Grosjean, and Kimi started closing in on the backmarkers...

All in all, a total tactical failure not just for Lotus, but for Ferrari as well.
The competition essentially shot themselves in the foot during a race where they actually had a massive chance to capitalize...

Mercedes wasn't even really in the mix, yet they managed to screw up by having Nico Rosberg hold up Lewis Hamilton, despite them being on completely different strategies...
Extremely strange and incredibly foolish on Rosberg's part...

I'm not so sure about that... yesterday, overtaking wasn't particularly easy (this was actually a perfect example of a race where DRS was utilized effectively and showed why it's arguably necessary in this formula), even with a car that's a full second faster.

Everyone ran into issues—Alonso with Lewis Hamilton, Lewis Hamilton with Nico Hülkenberg, and I can't recall who Mark Webber struggled with. So, assuming someone could build a gap on the restart with softer tires, that advantage would likely just evaporate once the pit stops happened anyway... there's no logic to it...

They did the only thing that made sense: put on the softer tires when the car was at its lightest and try to pick up a position at the very end when there's nothing left to lose.

What's a much bigger enigma to me is that first pitstop window, which was practically identical to when those on the softer tires pitted... I mean, wtf.

stormybadger8 said:I actually noticed the same thing. The only logical way to explain why they weren't passing Lewis Hamilton on those Soft tires, or why Grosjean in that old Renault was keeping up despite being on much older, slower rubber, is that the corner traction is just catastrophically bad...
It’s a bit strange, though, that Fernando has a qualifying pace over a second faster than Grosjean... and by far the fastest qualifying pace of the race...

Man, that corner traction is just brutal!!!! Absolutely brutal. 🧐
It ruins even a master when you're sitting in a car that's 1.1 seconds faster per lap ...
What a complete junk heap that Ferrari turned out to be... there isn't a trace of real speed left... it's honestly pathetic. 🙂

Alonso was running those laps on tires that should realistically only last about 6 or 7 laps under full load... yet he managed to squeeze 11 laps out of them before the end. That's exactly why I posted right after his pit stop that it was over and he wouldn't catch the leaders.
As for their top speed yesterday? It was nothing compared to Red Bull Racing.
The fact that Grosjean in the Lotus could hang on for 12 laps has nothing to do with his driving skill specifically; it's more that the weather and track conditions just happened to favor Lotus, allowing them to pull faster laps even at the end of a stint.
Otherwise, how else do you explain why most drivers are pitting for fresh rubber by lap 6 or 7 because their times start dropping, while Grosjean is still setting faster laps on lap 10 than everyone else was on laps 2 or 3?

And as for whether Fernando could have actually won? I doubt it. His pace on the Medium tires just wasn't strong enough to stay glued to the guys ahead.

Roger Wright94 said:Yeah, there’s definitely a question regarding Kimi Räikkönen's tactics—specifically, the Lotus strategy involving Kimi.
Could Kimi have pulled off the win if he had just stayed out on those old tires (skipping that final pit stop)?
Or should that last stop have happened a lap or two earlier?

It seems entirely plausible that Kimi could have won under either scenario.
Regardless, given yesterday's conditions, Lotus is proving to be a serious contender. They're arguably the strongest on the grid right now, trailing only slightly behind Red Bull Racing. Of course, they're hungry for more wins after that season opener, but they certainly have plenty to be happy about with the Lotus performance.

Romain Grosjean was quick, but you have to notice their top speed was actually the lowest during qualifying. If he had somehow ended up ahead of Sebastian Vettel—say, if Seb accidentally went wide in a corner—I think he would have slowly chipped away at his lead. Also, hearing that bit over the team radio about Kimi being right behind him might have distracted him a little, perhaps dampening that raw hunger to take the win.

steelmaker83 said:What really puzzles me is that first pit stop. It happened almost at the exact same time as the guys on the softer tires... I mean, seriously, what were they thinking?

And he mentioned they lost too much time on those tires... well, that was actually Fernando speaking.
He felt they just didn't have the pace at the start of the race, and that lack of speed cost him a much better result.

steelmaker83 said:I am not entirely certain about that... yesterday, overtaking wasn't exactly a breeze (in fact, it was a phenomenal example of why DRS actually serves its purpose and why it remains somewhat necessary in a formula like this), even when you had a car that was a full second faster per lap.

Everyone ran into issues—Alonso was battling Lewis, Lewis was stuck behind Hulkenberg, and I can't quite recall who Webber was fighting. So, if we assume someone could have made a gap on a restart using softer tires, wouldn't that advantage just evaporate again once everyone hits the pits? It simply lacks logic...

They did the only thing that actually made sense—switching to softer compounds when the car is at its lightest weight, hoping to snatch up a few positions right at the end when there is nothing left to lose.

What presents a far greater enigma to me, however, is that initial pit window, which was practically identical to the timing of those on the softer tires... I mean, seriously, what were they thinking?

Softer tires, a better starting position, a cleaner launch. Perhaps even a top three finish after the first lap. I find it hard to believe Ferrari would burn through their rubber any faster than the rest of the field. Now, the real question remains: would Alonso actually be able to hold off the pack behind him?

graniteharbor502 said:Softer tires, a better starting spot, a cleaner launch. Maybe even a top 3 finish after the first lap. I highly doubt Ferrari would have burned through their rubber any faster than the rest of the field. The real question is whether Alonso could have actually held them off.

On paper, it makes sense. Everything seems logical.
(Looking back now that the dust has settled) Honestly, I don't think there was much to gain. The team had their reasons, and in the end, it looks like they called it right—even if we spent the whole race questioning them.
There were only brief moments where Ferrari could actually keep pace with Lotus. They couldn't even manage it during that final stint when the opportunity was wide open—an opportunity created by the SC, Webber's retirement, and a lackluster Mercedes performance.

We're still left with the issue of that too-short opening stint and a lot of questions about why the car struggled so much during that part of the race.

Roger Wright94 said:It all makes sense looking back.
(Now that the race is over and we’ve had some time to process everything) I honestly don't think there was much to gain from changing course. The team clearly had their reasons, and in the end, it seems they were right all along—which is funny, because wasn't that exactly what we spent the whole afternoon questioning?
There were brief moments where Ferrari actually looked capable of keeping pace with Lotus, but they just couldn't sustain it. They didn't even manage to close the gap during that final stint when the opportunity was widest—an opportunity created by the SC, Webber's misfortune, and the fact that Mercedes just wasn't competitive enough.

We are still left grappling with the issue of that overly short opening stint and the lingering question marks surrounding those lackluster performances during that phase of the race.

Starting out on the softer compound might have offered Ferrari a bit more strategic breathing room. Perhaps they could have attempted to stretch those harder tires all the way to the finish after the safety car period ended.

I’m honestly leaning toward the idea that the Lotus had the fastest car on the grid for that race. It makes you wonder, doesn't it? Could they have actually walked away with the win if Kimi and Grosjean hadn't been getting in each other's way? I really don't know. On another note, the Lotus pit wall seriously needs to beef up their crew. They desperately need to bring in someone more experienced to handle the race strategy; people are starting to lose respect for how they manage things. As for the drivers, Grosjean was impressively calm and quick—it felt like one of those rare races this season where he actually found his rhythm. And Kimi? Well, he was just his usual self: consistently solid and fast.

Vettel's driving? Honestly, it’s pure clinical precision. He makes it look like a routine Sunday drive, doesn't he? But don't let that calm exterior fool you—he's constantly dancing right on the absolute edge of control. It’s masterful stuff.
Webber stumbled again, but honestly, he still showed us exactly what he's capable of. There’s just something about that unmistakable American grit, isn't there? It’s that raw, unyielding spirit that seems to run through the veins of this country. You see it in the way people tackle impossible odds, facing down challenges with a certain stubbornness that most would call madness, but we just call character. It’s that relentless drive to push through when things get tough—not because it's easy, but because that's simply who we are. Don't you think there's a unique kind of beauty in that refusal to back down? Is it just pure stubbornness, or was that actually a brilliant bit of driving right after the SC? What do you think he’d say about it? It’s actually going to happen, my friend! I can feel it in my bones!

I honestly think Alonso was much more impressive this race compared to the last one. It really felt like he was squeezing every last drop of performance out of that car, fighting for those tiny fractions of a second. You know that feeling when a car just sort of crawls across the finish line? I had this nagging sense that Alonso was absolutely spent—just completely drained from the sheer physical toll and the mental stress of it all. Lately, it feels like he’s constantly having to perform miracles just to stay competitive. Unfortunately, I'm convinced they completely missed the mark during qualifying, and that's where they blew their chance at a podium. In my eyes, that podium was right there for the taking if they'd just played it right.

In the end, the biggest losers have to be the Mercedes duo. Honestly, if Nico had just managed to stay ahead of Lewis during those early stages, things might have gone very differently. Instead, he let him slip by, and that mistake essentially ruined the race for both of them. Don't you think?
And of course, they completely botched Nico's qualifying, though Lewis managed to salvage something from the wreckage. If they can actually lock out the front row in Canada, there might just be a fighting chance at a win or at least a podium finish.

We absolutely have to talk about Button, who basically drove the race of his life there. Honestly, that was probably his finest performance on a dry track in forever. I heard he was complaining about the traffic afterward, but regardless, pulling off a 6th-place finish in that absolute mess? That’s nothing short of a massive achievement. Then you have our ever-resilient Sergio, who managed to scrape into 8th. It shows they finally stumbled upon a bit of pace, though, if we're being honest, the whole situation still feels pretty underwhelming.
Hulkenberg managed to snag that final point today, which really gave Sauber a much-needed spark of life. Honestly, watching him out there, I can't help but see a bit of Mark Webber's grit in his driving style. Doesn't anyone else get that same feeling?

steelmaker83 said:I'm not so sure about that... yesterday wasn't exactly a masterclass in overtaking (if you consider it one), even with a car that was a full second faster per lap. In fact, I'd argue it was actually a perfect example of why DRS is necessary in this current era of racing—it finally showed its true purpose.

Personally, I think the issue lies with how short the straights are when you compare them to those massive Tilke's tracks. It seems pretty obvious that we need to shorten the DRS zone to compensate.

Emily Patel64 said:nice call on the forecast 🙏🙏

I actually remembered mid-race that someone managed to get a Lotus on the podium once... if I recall correctly... 😁

Just thought I'd brag a little... I nailed the top three in China perfectly. Definitely putting some money down starting next race.

Roger Wright94 said:Could Kimi have actually pulled off a win if he’d just stayed out on those old tires—you know, skipped that final pit stop?

I mean, I really don't think so.

Once those Pirelli tires start falling apart, they just totally give up halfway through a lap... I think Kimi went through something pretty similar back in Malaysia, if I remember correctly.

Either way, I honestly think Vettel would've taken it even if Kimi had pitted one lap earlier. You could literally see Kimi clawing back about half a second every single lap—right up until those last two laps when his German teammate wouldn't let him through for that one second of DRS...

Kimi went through this exact same thing during the last race, so I don't quite get why he’s complaining now. Last time, his grievance was being forced into the pits—but hey, he clearly knows more than us armchair experts 😬

Roger Wright94 said:On paper, it makes total sense.
(Now that the race is over and we’re all acting like geniuses) Honestly, I don't think the strategy even mattered. The team had their reasons, and it looks like they actually called it right—not that we stopped questioning them for a second.
There were brief moments where Ferrari could actually hang with Lotus. But they couldn't hold it, even during that final stint when the window was wide open. And that was a golden opportunity handed to them by the SC, Webber dropping out, and Mercedes being completely uncompetitive.

We're still left with the issue of that way-too-short first stint and a massive question mark over how weak they looked during that part of the race.

That’s the root of the whole mess right there.😉

If Ferrari had made it into Q3, they would've started ahead of Lotus... because they were clearly faster in qualifying. Then you'd have to wonder if Lotus could even keep up, much less overtake them. 😉

I can see it happening soon—the day Alonso finally snaps and tells the whole lot of them exactly where to shove it.

Paul Lopez6 said:I don't think so.

Once Pirelli tires start falling apart, they fall apart halfway through a lap... if I recall correctly, Kimi dealt with exactly that in Malaysia.

Hmm, 11 laps left and a lead of about 15-16 seconds...
They were basically pulling identical lap times, or maybe Vettel was just slightly quicker... regardless, Vettel would only win in that scenario if Kimi's tires completely disintegrated. Otherwise, who knows if he'd even catch him...

Plus, he’d still have an aggressive Grosjean breathing down his neck the whole time, and who knows if Grosjean might have actually overtaken him...
Anyway, Romain looked like the faster Lotus driver right up until they pointed out Kimi was actually quicker...

Bottom line: Lotus's strategy is a mess. They gamble on these insanely long stints that yield absolutely nothing... and then when an SC pit stop could happen without losing much ground, they play it super conservative instead of taking a real risk.🤷

stormybadger8 said:Mercedes is going to get absolutely screwed by this tire change ban and these mandatory pressure rules...

Jason Campbell70 said:Mercedes getting screwed?

Everything is being done just to boost Mercedes' competitiveness.
Pirelli and the FIA are letting them run tests, they're introducing rear tires with a 10-degree lower operating temperature, and they're basically using harder compounds at almost every race compared to last season.

Mercedes is too big of a player on the global stage to settle for mere F1 scraps.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/108668
Hmm, am I seeing things, or is Ross whining about the ban on changing tires?😁