Brazil vs. USA - Nov 7, 2010

redheron12 said:Let’s be real, Dietrich Mateschitz acts like a saint only because any kind of shady business would trash the "Red Bull" brand, and he isn't willing to risk that. If he were living off Middle Eastern oil money like everyone else, you can bet he'd be manipulating 😉

I'm with you on this one.☕

Honestly, I don't even think they'll let anyone slip through. For them, being seen as "clean" is a much bigger win for their marketing than actually snagging a double championship. A constructors' title is more than enough for them.

They probably just want to rig things so that if Fernando Alonso wins the title, he does it by less than 7 points.🤣

Anything else? They couldn't care less.🤣

Keith Rodriguez27 said:If we’re going to talk about Turkey again—and you know we have, to be fair—I have to agree with you on one thing. Looking at your debate today with Gil (and even those older arguments involving the rest of the group), it seems like the core issue is that you two are just looking at this situation from two completely opposite angles.
So, your main takeaway here is that this whole mess is basically just two teammates tearing each other apart. They're constantly clashing, which is doing nothing but screwing over Red Bull. By stealing points from one another, they’re making it nearly impossible to grab the Constructors' Championship, let alone an individual driver's title. And hey, if one of them actually pulls it off, I guess that's a win for the second driver too. Just a total mess.
On the other hand, Gil sees this situation purely as a showdown between two top-tier drivers fighting tooth and nail for every single point on the grid—including this one—just to stack up enough points to grab that championship title.

If you look at it this way, you’re both right. On one hand, Mark Webber can't exactly get in the way of Sebastian Vettel, regardless of whose car is faster, simply because they’re both neck-and-neck in the fight for the championship. On the other hand, Webber needs to move; by staying stuck behind Vettel’s quicker car, he’s just cranking up the risk of a collision that would wreck things for the whole team. Plus, Gil's argument about them being unequal teammates falls apart if Webber actually has to move. If they're truly equals, then Webber has every right to defend his position. It really just comes down to which perspective you buy into, but let's be real—everyone knows both sides have a point.

Look, if we’re talking personal opinions, I still lean toward that view on how drivers at the top should fight for the championship. That’s basically why you and I kept going back and forth about it. That being said, I won't pretend Webber's move wasn't incredibly stupid when you consider what was actually best for the team.

👍A signature like a home. 🙏

Look, I don't really care. It’s not like I'm holding a grudge against Gil or anyone else. Honestly, I actually enjoy arguing with him.😁

Here's how I see things:
Guilt:
Christian Horner (and basically the whole Red Bull leadership) — 40%
Vettel—30%.
Webber - 30%

It all boils down to this: I’m calling it 30.5% for Webber and 29.5% for Vettel, whereas Gil has the numbers flipped.🤣

stormybadger8 said:👍solid as a house 🙏

I don't mind the debate at all—and I'm certainly not holding a grudge against Gil or anyone else—since I actually enjoy our back-and-forth discussions.😁

In my view, the reality looks something like this:
guilt:
Horner (and the Red Bull Racing leadership in general) — 40%
Vettel — 30%
Webber — 30%

The nuance in the argument really comes down to one thing—I personally think it's Weeber at 30.5% and Vettel at 29.5%, whereas Gil seems to have those percentages flipped.🤣

That would be true if Webber had just joined F1 yesterday—but even a novice knows that Webber is a tough competitor who demands respect when you try to overtake him. Vettel was indeed faster, and he really should have handled the situation with more grace. He didn't, which is why I place the bulk of the blame on him.😉

redheron12 said:That would be one thing if Webber had just stepped back into F1 yesterday, but honestly, even a casual fan knows Webber is a tough nut to crack and you really have to watch your step when you try to overtake him. Vettel was definitely faster, and he really should’ve handled that move way more smoothly. He didn't, so yeah, the guilt falls squarely on him. 😉

And that's exactly where the issue lies—the guy just lacks patience, which we've seen pop up a few times over the last two seasons...

From messing around with Webber to those messy moments where he collided with Kubica... I mean, there might be more, but those two are the first ones that jump to mind.

He had the pace, too, and plenty of time to play it cool and sort things out, but instead, he ended up settling those situations by crashing, and that's entirely on him.👎

I wasn't even able to catch the race,
but looking at the final standings—man, I just don't get it. Why is Webber trailing Alonso by a full 8 points instead of just one? 😁

Seriously though, hats off to Red Bull for playing it fair. 🙏

Morgan Murphy7 said:I’m actually gagging at how much Red Bull keeps preaching about "respect."

Do they really think we're all idiots? 👎 🙂

🤣

redheron12 said:It’d be like Webber had been back in F1 since yesterday. Even a bird on a wire knows that messing with Mark Webber is a bad idea—you’ve gotta watch your back when you try to overtake him. Sure, Vettel was faster, but he should've handled that situation with a hell of a lot more class. Instead, he didn't. And he's the one who takes most of the blame. 😉

Not even a debate. That's just how it is.

A few other things are bugging me:

It honestly bugs me how Webber didn't treat Vettel the same way he treated his other teammate.
It honestly bugs me how he acted like that. He knew exactly what he was doing, even if it meant screwing over Vettel and the rest of the team.
It bugs me how he expects this exact same crew—and Vettel too—to treat him with total respect, when he treated them like absolute garbage.

Basically, Webber loves preaching about being a "team player" at Red Bull when it suits his interests, but the second he’s actually expected to play nice for the team, suddenly he's not interested.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.☕

Vettel clearly hasn't figured out how to handle having a bigger, more difficult rival right there in his own garage than anyone else on the grid. That’s easily his biggest screw-up this season, and honestly, I'm worried he still hasn't learned how to deal with it.😢

He’s finally getting his head straight near the end of the season, using that raw speed to stay out of trouble. But the real question is: did he actually learn that sometimes it’s smarter to just hold back and play it safe? We won't know until next season. If he's actually improved, then at least the lesson wasn't a total waste—even if it cost him a fortune to learn it.

Clearly, Webber hasn't learned a thing. But honestly, who cares? His time is pretty much up anyway. He did the absolute most he could with what he had, and I'm not really going to sit here and complain about him. Do whatever you want with that.

The biggest issue here—the absolute elephant in the room—is that Red Bull hasn't learned a damn thing. It feels like Horner either doesn't get it or just refuses to take a stand. Honestly? I’m terrified they didn't learn anything at all from this mess. I really want to be wrong, but I can't shake the feeling that everything is just going to stay exactly the same.🤷

What about Alonso and those team orders? Honestly, he basically built that squad himself, just like he did with Massa. He had some insane luck—or maybe just pure skill—to capitalize on everyone else's screw-ups. He always managed to come out of every single duel completely unscathed.

He got 7 points. That’s just a fact. People can argue about whether he deserved them all day long—honestly, who cares? But you know how the media works. If he walks away with anything less than those 7 points, the headlines are going to be absolutely brutal.☕
Will that headline be undeserved? Honestly, who cares. For the media, it’s gold. There’s nothing the press loves more than a little sensationalism and throwing shade. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they take that route.

stormybadger8 said:There’s really no debate here—it's just the truth of the matter.

- It bothers me how Webber didn't treat Vettel with the same respect he showed his other teammate.
- It bothers me that he acted the way he did, even though he was fully aware he was hurting both Vettel and the entire team he drives for.
- It bothers me that he expects this same team, and Vettel specifically, to treat him with complete kindness after the way he treated them.

In Turkey, the championship standings looked like this:

1. Mark Webber (Aus) Red Bull 78 points
2. Sebastian Vettel (Ger) Red Bull 78
3. Fernando Alonso (Sp) Ferrari 75
4. Jenson Button (GB) McLaren 70
5. Felipe Massa (It) Ferrari 61
6. Robert Kubica (Pol) Renault 59

Now, please—give me just one single rational reason why Webber should be letting Vettel pass.🤷

redheron12 said:The standings in Turkey were:

1. Mark Webber (Aus) Red Bull 78 points
2. Sebastian Vettel (Ger) Red Bull 78
3. Fernando Alonso (Sp) Ferrari 75
4. Jenson Button (GB) McLaren 70
5. Felipe Massa (It) Ferrari 61
6. Robert Kubica (Pol) Renault 59

Now give me one single rational reason why they should have swapped Webber and Vettel. 🤷

Look, Webber shouldn't have been bumped ahead of Vettel, but damn it, he certainly shouldn't have shoved him off the track either.☕
Webber didn't leave any room for Vettel, period. He pushed him out. A little twitch toward him and boom—total mess.

Webber acted exactly like Schumacher did to Barichel. There's no difference, yet Schumacher got penalized for it.
Kubica did the exact same thing to Alonso—but this time, Alonso is the one getting punished.🙄
Webber wasn't penalized, neither was Vettel. That means the FIA was being lazy and clueless. Someone should have been held accountable for that collision, and it wasn't, unless you think redheron12 is right and Vettel is the main culprit.

It’s not that the FIA was avoiding penalizing Vettel this season; if we’re being brutally honest, he’s more responsible for this crash than the one with Button that actually earned him a penalty.🙄

That incident with Button was just losing control of the car, which is identical to:
Webber - Kovalinen Webber
Webber - Rosberg penalty
Webber hasn't seen a penalty all season, even though he’s caused the most chaos on the track. In every mess involving the FIA, nobody gets punished.☕

stormybadger8 said:Webber really shouldn't have been moving out of the way for Vettel—though, to be fair, he certainly didn't go out of his way to force him off the track either.☕
Webber didn't leave any room for Vettel—it was basically a push—he just nudged him out of the way, and that was that. It’s one of those messy situations where everything just falls apart in an instant.

If you look at the cause and effect—the way Webber was pushing and that sudden jerk from Vettel—it’s all just a symptom. The real issue is an impatient Vettel—he simply lacks the maturity to wait for a clean opening when he's in a faster car.

Here we go again... 🤦 🙈

TBFD, come on, man. Just man up and admit you’re actually Helmut Marko masquerading as some random F1 fan from a small town in Ohio. Maybe that'll motivate Joža to finally admit he's actually Goran Dijaković. 🙏

I didn't jump in earlier to comment on Pangloss's take on the debate, but I will now. As far as I'm concerned, he's spot on: when two drivers have an equal shot at the title, there's no reason one should just step aside for the other. Team orders should only kick in when the internal rivalry loses its purpose—like when one driver is clearly the weaker link and is actively jeopardizing the collective goal. As for TBFD, you're off base; he isn't a Red Bull fan, because he certainly isn't looking at this through a team lens. He's a Sebastian Vettel fan, and he's viewing everything through Vettel's eyes. If he were actually rooting for the team, he would have argued that Vettel should have yielded to Webber in Brazil to maximize the team's championship chances without hurting his own position. (Because right now, he needs Alonso's 5th place finish, whereas if he had played ball, he'd be aiming for 9th, which is arguably more realistic. Alonso is in incredible form, so he'll likely either grab a podium or end up outside the points entirely if his engine gives out.)

Anyway, guys, I think we should move this discussion to a new topic. Both Brazil and Turkey are already in the rearview mirror.

Joshua Newman2 said:And here we go again... 🤦 🙈

TBFD, come on, man. Just be a man and admit you’re actually Helmut Marko in disguise rather than just some random F1 fan from a small town in Ohio. Maybe that will motivate Joža to finally admit he’s actually Goran Dijaković. 🙏

I wasn't particularly critical of Pangloss's take on the debate earlier, but now I think I will be. As far as I'm concerned, his point stands: when two drivers have an equal shot at the championship, why should one simply step aside for the other? Team orders and calculations should only come into play when the internal rivalry loses its purpose—specifically when one driver is clearly the weaker link and is jeopardizing the collective goal. As for TBFD, you're mistaken; he isn't a Red Bull fan at all. He doesn't view this through the lens of the team. No, he's a Sebastian Vettel fan, and he's viewing everything through Vettel's eyes. If he were truly looking at it from the team's perspective, he would be arguing that Vettel should have moved over for Webber in Brazil to maximize the team's title chances without hurting his own position. (Because right now, he needs Alonso's 5th place finish, whereas if things had gone differently, he'd need 9th, which is arguably less likely. Alonso is in incredible form, and there's every chance he either lands on the podium or finishes outside the points entirely if his engine gives out.)

Anyway, guys, I really think we should move this discussion to a new thread. Both Brazil and Turkey are already in the rearview mirror.

doxing private info x 2 = 500 points x 2 = 😘

🤣

So, who actually posted this? I’m calling on the TBFD to step up and name names!

Joshua Newman2 said:And here we go again... 🤦 🙈

Look, TBFD, just man up and admit you're actually Helmut Marko instead of some random F1 fan from a small town in Ohio. Maybe that’ll nudge Joža into admitting he’s actually Goran Dijaković. 🙏

I wasn't trashing Pangloss's take on this debate earlier, but now I am. Personally, I think he's right—if two drivers have an equal shot at the title, there's no reason one should just step aside for the other. Team orders should only kick in when the fight stops being competitive because one driver is clearly weaker and jeopardizing the collective goal. As for TBFD, you're off base; he isn't a Red Bull fan at all, which means he isn't looking at this through the team's lens. He's a Sebastian Vettel fan, seeing everything through Vettel's eyes. If that weren't the case, he'd be arguing that Vettel should have moved out of Webber's way in Brazil to maximize the team's title chances without hurting his own. (Because right now he needs Alonso's 5th place finish, whereas he'd ideally want 9th—which is basically impossible. Alonso is on fire, so he'll either grab a podium or nothing if his engine blows.)

Anyway guys, let's move this circus to a new topic. Brazil and Turkey are already in the rearview mirror.

Even if that's true, I'm starting to dig this group of absolute morons🙏 🙏 🙏

From my perspective, betting everything on Webber from a team standpoint is pure insanity. It’s the same kind of stupidity as McLaren putting all their eggs in Hamilton's basket—the odds of him not screwing things up at the critical moment are slim to none.

I'm convinced Red Bull went all-in on Vettel from day one to secure the title. If they had put everything on Webber at any point during the season, even from race one, it wouldn't have worked.

Same goes for McLaren; I'm sure they went all-in on Button to win regardless of what Red Bull did, whereas putting everything on Hamilton gives them very low odds.

That's just my take. I might be wrong, but Hamilton has proven he can mess anything up, and honestly, so can Webber.

If Webber had been the driver everyone imagined he was back in Korea, we wouldn't even be having this debate—the title would've been wrapped up regardless of Vettel.☕

Do the math if you don't believe me.😉

Joshua Newman2 said:So, who actually posted anything? I’m calling on TBFD to step up and admit who it was!

It’s right there in their signature. Just gotta actually read it.🤣

Look, I’m basically just like any other elite athlete or world-famous celebrity with American roots. That explains why I know a bit of the American language—though, let's be honest, my skills are pretty pathetic.

Wait, you guys seriously didn't catch the initials? Joža is actually Jenson Button. Seriously?☕
Playboy, loaded, women flocking to him, polite, calm. It all checks out.☕

stormybadger8 said:Webber shouldn't have blocked Vettel, but man, he definitely shouldn't have shoved him off either.☕
Webber didn't give Vettel any room, plain and simple. He pushed him out—it was just a little nudge toward him and then boom, everything goes south.

man, you've got your wires totally crossed here....

Webber wasn't pushing him off. If you actually watch the replay—just look at Webber without Vettel in the frame—you'll see the guy was just driving his usual line. Once he realized the other guy was coming for him, he just hugged the edge of the track....

I mean, yeah, he could've left more space, but he didn't....

He gave him just enough room for the car to squeeze through...

And honestly, staying right there until the end of the corner was key because Webber was in a way better spot by the exit than it looks... since Vettel would've had to brake way earlier in that situation, and then Webber would've just shut the door and that's that....

We've seen this exact thing a million times before, but obviously, an impatient Vettel tried to jerk Webber out of the way to open up some space and ended up hitting him......

Just watch the clip again.

If you check the footage from Vettel's cockpit, you'll see he had more than enough room to pass. Honestly, it's on the kid himself for having zero patience....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z0cj...eature=related

And here's a second angle for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JOw5...eature=related And when you see how much faster Vettel was compared to Webber, you realize Webber started closing that line way before Vettel even made his move, mostly because he was being forced into those slower movements....

So, if you really want to nitpick Webber, the only thing you can say is he didn't let him through—and I'm talking about him not letting his own teammate through, mind you....

And honestly, if you don't have a brain in your head, it doesn't even make sense to think Formula 1 wouldn't have these unspoken agreements, no matter how much people might complain about it...

Like, if people claim there are no "team orders," I don't see why Webber would just hand it over, regardless of the fact that we're all used to seeing teammates swap spots....

Look, this isn't some amateur street race, it's Formula 1.

redheron12 said:Let’s be real here. Dietrich Mateschitz acts like a saint only because any hint of shady business could tank the "Red Bull" brand, and he isn't about to risk that. If he were living off Middle Eastern oil money like everyone else, you can bet he'd be manipulating 😉

Not even that.

Mateschitz "doesn't allow" those kinds of rules not out of integrity, but because his team doesn't know how to implement them—or simply won't. When they can't find an edge, they just pivot to scoring points through fair play.

It's the same story with McLaren. They didn't go after Red Bull Racing or Ferrari at the FIA for the sake of "honesty"; they did it over flexible wings. Those McLaren drivers only pushed those complaints because they couldn't figure out how to build a flexible wing themselves.

There is no such thing as honor in Formula 1. It's a competition backed by massive amounts of cash, yet there are very few winners—not to mention even fewer teams actually turning a profit from the whole thing.

These clips are great 🙏

Man, if you look closely at this, Vettel doesn't jerk his steering to the right for even a second (if anything, he snaps hard left the moment impact happens). His car gets pushed right when they go wheel-to-wheel; Vettel didn't even glance at Webber.
Meanwhile, the moment impact hits, Webber yanks his steering left. It’s like he’s actually trying to smash into him, at least that's how it looks to me.

Webber moves left toward the edge of the track to close the gap, then cuts back right, and just as Vettel comes down the left side, Webber’s car swerves right back toward Vettel. Vettel heads for the edge—honestly looks like his rear tire was almost off the track—he pulls back in slightly, while Webber doesn't budge an inch.
The track carries Vettel's car to the right (looks like the corner is banking that way, though maybe it's just an optical illusion)🤷 and they end up touching wheel-to-wheel, but it's a front-to-back contact, not side-to-side.

Compared to the white line, I don't see Webber drifting away from it for a single second (during the part where they're parallel with Vettel). If anything, he seems to be heading straight for it.🤷

I don't know. Looking at these shots, I can't say anything for certain. I'm really not sure because has anyone actually seen an overhead shot from the air???

I think we'd get the full picture if we could just see a slow-motion bird's-eye view from above.

Like this, I'm just not sure about any of it.

You've only managed to fuel my doubts, Tommy.🤣

Now I can clearly see Vettel wasn't even looking at Webber, which makes him look even less responsible for the crash.

Instead of proving me wrong, you've just convinced me even more that Vettel isn't to blame.🤣

But honestly, this whole debate is a waste of time. Plenty have tried to argue it and failed. I'll admit, maybe I'm wrong, but to me, it looks like Webber's line was one that would have sent him flying off the track if Vettel hadn't been there. There's no way he takes that corner normally with a line like that without sudden steering inputs.🤷

Or am I missing something? Is the way you take a right-hander to go extreme left and then snap hard right?🤷

I've never driven a race car, so who knows. I always stay in my lane and don't drift into someone else's.

Maybe the whole issue is that I'm looking at his "corner cutting" as totally insane behavior.🤷

stormybadger8 said:those clips are great 🙏

Man, looking at this closely, Sebastian Vettel didn't jerk his steering to the right for even a split second—in fact, the moment of impact, he actually swerves hard to the left. The car gets pushed right when the wheels touch; it’s not like Vettel was even targeting Webber.
Meanwhile, Webber jerks his wheel to the left right at the moment of contact—which, to me, looks like he was actually trying to clip him, if I'm being honest.
Webber moves left toward the outside edge of the track (trying to close the door), then swings back to the right, and just as Vettel comes down the left side, Webber’s car swings right back toward Vettel. Vettel drifts toward the edge—I actually think his rear wheel might have been off the track—he pulls back in slightly, while Webber doesn't move an inch.
The track seems to be pulling Vettel's car to the right (it looks like the corner is turning that way in the footage, though it could easily be an optical illusion 🤷) and the wheel-to-wheel contact happens in a front-to-back direction, rather than left-to-right.

Looking at the white line, I don't see Webber drifting away from it for a single second during the part where they are parallel; if anything, it feels like he's heading straight for it. 🤷

I don't know—looking at these clips, I just can't say anything with absolute certainty. I'm really not sure, because has an aerial shot ever been released???

I honestly think we'd get the full picture if we could see an overhead aerial view, maybe even slowed down.

As it stands, I'm just not sure about any of this.

The only thing is, you've definitely fueled my doubts, rustystag7. 🤣

Now it looks to me like Vettel wasn't even aiming for Webber, which makes him seem even less responsible for the collision.

Instead of proving me wrong, you've actually made me more convinced that Vettel isn't at fault. 🤣

But honestly, this whole debate feels a bit futile—plenty of people have tried to settle it and haven't succeeded. I'll admit to you, though, that I could be wrong, but to my eyes, it looks like Webber's path was such that he would have flown off the track if Vettel hadn't been there. From what I can see, he certainly wouldn't have made that corner normally with that line without those sudden steering inputs. 🤷

Or am I mistaken? Is the way you take a right-hander to go all the way left and then suddenly whip it to the right? 🤷

I've never driven a race car, so I can't say for sure—I always just stay in my lane and don't cross into someone else's.

Maybe the issue is that I'm viewing this "cutting the corner" style of driving as totally abnormal behavior. 🤷

You really won't let this one go... 🤣
Regarding the highlighted part: Vettel didn't jerk left immediately after the hit because he's an honorable guy; he did it for one simple reason: he wanted to stay on the track. His only shot was to steer left to pull away from Webber. And as for Webber's movement, don't try to twist the facts—Mark only jerked left once Vettel had already moved away, and even then, it was solely to keep himself on the track.
As for everything else, I think we’ve already debated who gave whom an inch a million times over, so I won't drag that out again...
Honestly, I think you’d find things a lot easier if you just accepted the fact that Seb really messed this one up—plain and simple. I know that might be a tough pill to swallow, but hey, if I could admit it when my own favorites blew it, surely you can too when Vettel makes a mistake...😁

I’ve been reading through some of these little essays you guys have been putting together, so I figured I’d finally jump in. I watched the race and went back to check out the replay footage from every angle, and honestly, I don't get how anyone can claim Webber is solely to blame for that collision. At most, you could call it a 50-50 split, but if anything, Vettel might be more at fault, certainly not less. If you look at the other clip, it’s pretty obvious that Vettel was driving like he was behind the wheel of an Abrams tank, acting like he could just force his way into the corner by widening his racing line—I mean, pulling a move like that when you're pushing north of 186 miles/h in that section? Webber didn't even have time to react. Webber left enough room for Vettel on the side, he didn't squeeze him off onto the grass, and that's really all there is to it.