Brazil vs. USA - Nov 7, 2010

Roger Wright94 said:@ TBF
I agree with everything you said. You're spot on. Every person I know around here would say the same thing.

Only one thing: your take on how Red Bull is handling their issues—you think they're pretending the problem doesn't exist.
They aren't pretending. They just can't fix it. It's been happening for a while now. They're stuck, and things have spiraled out of their control.

There is zero favoritism toward Sebastian Vettel at Red Bull. If there were, Mark Webber would be sitting right where Felipe Massa is.

That’s exactly my point. They haven't found the cause, and they haven't fixed the cause.

Until they do, things aren't going to get better.

Look at this:

stormybadger8 said:Personally, I'd love to see Sebastian Vettel win, but I honestly think Horner and his crew are going to screw it all up. My gut tells me Red Bull is going to make even bigger mistakes this season than they did last year.😢

The dumbest part? I feel like Sebastian Vettel could win the title in basically any other team—McLaren, MGP, Ferrari, Renault, Williams, maybe even STR or FI—but he won't do it at Red Bull.😢

In fact, I think they'll be fighting for it until the final race, and then they'll mess up and let Mark Webber snatch those points away from him. Mark won't do it all season, who knows, but in that final race, when it matters most, he'll pull it off.

Even someone as clueless as me saw it coming at the start of the season. They're going to blow it just like last year, and they still don't even realize where they went wrong.🤦

Okay, so I didn't nail every single detail, but you see? I knew the Webber situation would be a disaster, and I knew they wouldn't be able to fix the car.

^^^^

When I was teasing Horner about how things at Red Bull would end up looking just like that mess at McLaren back in '07, you didn't buy it. 😁

Jason Campbell70 said:^^^^

When I was mocking Horner, claiming Red Bull would end up with the same mess McLaren had back in '07, you didn't buy it. 😁

No, I really didn't. Seriously, damn it, Jason Campbell70, Red Bull blew the drivers' title last year too because—unlike Brawn—they didn't have a clear hierarchy within the team.😉

My post above was written right after China, which means about a month before Turkey and before any of the internal Red Bull drama actually exploded. 😳

Ever since last year, it was obvious things were going to get messy between Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber, and there was zero chance the Horner-Marko-Mathezic trio would notice, let alone fix it.

Another thing: I was praying Sebastian Vettel could just sort this out himself. Sadly, he couldn't. Between the early season mechanical failures and just plain bad luck, everything eventually went straight down the drain.😢

And hey, the future looks bright . If we can't solve the problem, I guess they'll just have to 🙂

God, what an idiot 🤦

And look, I'm honestly convinced it works the other way around: even if Sebastian Vettel had a points lead over Mark Webber, there still wouldn't be any difference in how Red Bull operates.

But obviously, Mark Webber wouldn't let Sebastian Vettel pass him. There isn't a theoretical chance of that happening, nor is there anyone in the team who would allow it.

stormybadger8 said:No, that’s just not it. For heaven's sake, Pila... Red Bull blew the driver's championship last year because they didn't have a clear team hierarchy like Brawn did.😉

Last year, Brawn had a car that was just untouchable during the first half of the season. That was the real secret to their championship run. Honestly, no amount of team orders from Red Bull could have changed that outcome. 😉

stormybadger8 said:I was really praying that Vettel would just handle this himself—but honestly, nope. We ran into those annoying technical glitches and bad luck right at the start of the season, and then, well, everything just went completely sideways again later on.😢

Honestly, I think you're taking a bit too much of the blame here—just like back in 2009.

That's never going to get us a headline—not happening!

Jason Campbell70 said:Last year, Brawn had a dominant car during the first half of the season, and that was the deciding factor. No amount of Red Bull team orders could have changed that. 😉

Mark Webber cost Vettel 6 points. That’s on top of everyone else losing ground right when Brawn started fading. Look at Europe and Japan—five races. Five damn races in a top-tier car and zero points. A total goose egg. Even Button didn't drop a single point in that stretch 🤦

and then he goes and wins in Brazil.🤣

Vettel obviously gets screwed by bad strategy and finishes 4th, while both Brawn cars are ahead of him. Any smart team would have put him on a fresh set of tires. 😬

If Red Bull had a strategist like Brawn, they would've nailed that perfectly.😉

Look, if we’re gonna talk about Turkey AGAIN, you know we’ve already gone back and forth on this a million times. But, TBF, there’s one part where I actually have to give you credit. The real issue in this whole heated debate you’re having with Gil (and all the other guys jumping in from both sides) is that you two are just looking at the exact same situation through two totally different lenses.
Your whole angle is that this is basically teammates cannibalizing each other. You see them fighting and throwing points away, which screws over Red Bull's chances at the Constructors' title and messes with their shot at the Drivers' championship—which, by the way, would actually help the second Red Bull driver too.
On the flip side, Gil is looking at this strictly as a pure fight between two top-tier drivers who want every single point possible to boost their own chances of winning the title. That’s his bottom line.

If you frame it like that, honestly, you're both right. On one hand, Mark Webber can't just move out of the way for Sebastian Vettel because they are both neck-and-neck in the hunt for the championship; they're essentially equals. On the other hand, Webber *should* back off, because by staying in the way of a faster Vettel, he’s cranking up the risk of a crash that would absolutely wreck the team. And hey, Gil’s argument that they aren't equal falls apart if Webber is forced to yield; since they're technically on level ground, Webber has every right to defend his spot. It really just comes down to which perspective you buy into, but let's be real—everyone knows both sides exist and there's logic behind both arguments.

As for me? Personally, I lean more toward the "drivers fighting for the title" side of things. That's why we kept clashing about it, even though I’m not denying that Webber's move was incredibly stupid when you look at what's best for the team.

stormybadger8 said:If Red Bull had a strategist like Brawn on their side, they would have nailed this without a single mistake. Wouldn't they?😉

Red Bull blew last year's championship away in those first seven races when Button racked up six wins. Not even if they hired Nostradamus could any Red Bull strategy have changed that outcome. 😁

I don't know if anyone else has actually sat down and thought about this scenario:

With three laps left to go, the Abu Dhabi order is Vettel, Webber, and Alonso. Suddenly, everything goes to hell with a massive wreck, and we end up running the rest of the race under the SC. What on earth would Red Bull do then????

Jonathan Adams85 said:I’m not sure if anyone else has considered this specific scenario:

With three laps left to go, the standings in Abu Dhabi look like Vettel, Webber, and Alonso. Suddenly, there’s a massive wreck on the track and we end up running under an SC until the checkered flag. What on earth would Red Bull do in that situation?

At that point, Vettel’s only real options would be to pull off onto the grass or have the team call him into the pits under the guise of some sudden technical issue.

I’m honestly feeling a bit nauseous from all this constant fasting that Red Bull keeps trying to push on us

Do they really think we’re all just complete idiots? 👎 🙂

mistybear87 said:Either Vettel just pulls over to the side of the track, or they pull him into the pits under some fake technical excuse.

I honestly don't know if anyone at Red Bull is even considering this move.

But based on the solution you're pitching, Fernando Alonso ends up as the champ, so... 😁

Morgan Murphy7 said:I’m honestly getting nauseous from how much Red Bull keeps preaching about their "strategy"

Do they seriously think we're all brainless idiots? 👎 🙂

If they screw up a pit stop and Mark Webber ends up winning the championship because of it😲, I won't hold it against them one bit😉
THAT'S JUST FORMULA 1 FOR YOU☕☕☕

Jonathan Adams85 said:if they let them through and Mark Webber ends up being the champion😲,I wouldn't hold it against them one bit😉
THAT'S JUST FORMULA 1☕☕☕

Exactly

That’s just how racing works

There is massive money at stake here

It’s a bit unrealistic to expect Massa to take the win when it essentially means sacrificing Fernando Alonso's life

Honestly, what are you all even thinking? Get a grip

Morgan Murphy7 said:obviously

it’s Formula 1, for crying out loud

there's massive money on the line here

I mean, no sane person actually expects Massa to beat someone like Fernando Alonso, who basically lives and breathes this sport

Seriously, what are you people even smoking? Get a grip.

Honestly, it wouldn't even be that bad if he did.☕

mistybear87 said:Either Vettel pulls off to the side, or they call him into the pits under some fake pretext about a technical issue. What else is there?

Vettel falls apart. 😁

And we all know that colliding under the SC isn't exactly new territory for him. 😁

My ideal outcome—

Qualifying:
Sebastian Vettel.
Mark Webber.
3. Fernando Alonso
Alonso and Hamilton.
Felipe Massa.

Right at the start, Vettel and Webber collide. Meanwhile, Alonso charges through the wreckage and punctures a tire.

SC pulls out, and Alonso heads to the pits, dropping right to the back of the pack.

Fiat.Those mechanics, despite their supposed "world-class" reputation, botched the tire change. It left Fernando Alonso stuck in the pits for an extra stop, allowing Lewis Hamilton to blow past him by an entire lap. Little Luis is absolutely beaming right now, while his girlfriend is jumping around the garage, acting like she knows exactly what's happening—even though she clearly hasn't the slightest clue who's leading or what race we're even watching.
Hamilton is absolutely tearing it up right now, consistently putting down faster lap times than anyone else. Meanwhile, Jergović—who’s teamed up with the duo Novak-Blažičko following that last race—is practically floating on air. He won't stop rambling about how Lewis Hamilton is the greatest driver in Formula 1 history, claiming his talent is the best thing to happen to humanity since the invention of the wheel.

Then the light rain starts. We all know how those cars with the Fiat badge handle a little wet weather—the electronics just give up on you, and suddenly every single warning light in the cockpit is blinking at once. Fernando bails out of the car, practically in tears, cursing Ferrari for leaving him high and dry. They weren't even there to back him up while he was out there fighting like a lion against those imperialist McLaren types from England.

It all falls on Massa.

Rain, master. He's hitting his stride. Climbing the ranks. Is he finally finding his rhythm?
Last lap. Lewis Hamilton has the championship in the bag.
He hits the final corner, that nerdy little smirk already visible beneath the yellow helmet. Jergović finished his business a long time ago, but...

Then comes Massa. He feigns a move on the inside line. Hamilton blocks him. Massa jerks to the outside and breezes right past a helpless Lewis Hamilton, whose rear tires just can't hold grip. Flu. Just the flu.Just spinning your wheels.
Massa crosses the finish line first. Hamilton? He’s just standing there in total disbelief. Somehow, though, he manages to claw his way back to second place.

Using some pretty choice language over the radio, Massa tells Hamilton: "Screw you, you jerk. I'm 30 years old and I have 12 wins... what the hell?"

A happy end at Ferrari. Fernando Alonso decides against the self-destruction. A third title in the bag, and he’s already hinting at a fourth and fifth. But does little Fernando realize that the Silver Storm is waiting for him in 2011? 🙏🙏🙏

Jonathan Adams85 said:I'm really not sure if Red Bull is even considering this possibility at all.

But looking at the solution you laid out, Fernando Alonso ends up as the champion regardless, so... 😁

Look, in your scenario, Alonso comes out on top no matter how you slice it. 🙂
Sebastian Vettel can't just overtake Mark Webber under the SC, because he'd just end up with a penalty after the race. Whether it's him or Webber, the net result remains the same, doesn't it?

And if he were to "accidentally" run off the track just to rejoin in a better position... well, the FIA would certainly penalize that too.

mistybear87 said:And if he were to "accidentally" run off the track just to reclaim his position... the FIA would penalize that too.

Look at how Ferrari was penalized after the German Grand Prix. It’s a perfect example of how the FIA treats team orders as if they go against the rules.

It's a stroke of luck that Jean Todt is heading up the FIA right now—someone who actually enforced team orders himself and clearly knows everyone else in Formula 1 is doing the exact same thing.

If Max Mosley were in charge, he’d probably play the saint and pretend team orders have never even existed in this sport.

stormybadger8 said:And honestly, the future looks pretty bright , but if we can't get our act together and fix this mess, I guess they'll just have to figure it out themselves 🙂

Man, what an idiot 🤦

Look, I’m actually convinced it works the other way around—like, even if Vettel had the points lead and Webber was trailing behind, there wouldn't be any real difference at Red Bull.

I mean, I don't really see why you'd call him an idiot...

First off, personally, I don't think it would be the reverse if we were talking about Vettel, and if it were, man, I'd have to take my hat off to him...

And I gotta say, thank God there’s at least one team out there that lets their drivers actually race instead of putting on some circus act or playing these weird math games....

I'm still holding out hope that one day comes where money doesn't just screw up everything it touches.... 👎

rustystag7 said:I honestly don't see why anyone would call him an idiot...

In my view—and I wouldn't say the opposite if we were talking about Sebastian Vettel—if he had done that, I’d certainly be tipping my hat to him...

And frankly, I'm just thankful there's at least one team out there that actually lets their drivers race instead of putting on some circus act or playing math games...

I still hold onto the hope that one day comes where money won't ruin absolutely everything it touches...👎

Let's be real here—Dietrich Mateschitz is only this honest because any kind of shady business could seriously damage the "Red Bull" brand, and he isn't willing to risk that. If his lifestyle depended on funding from Arab sheiks like everyone else, he'd be manipulating 😉