Brazil vs. USA - Nov 7, 2010

Roger Wright94 said:Pato is my absolute idol!

Hey, Columbo... 😁

Anyone willing to start the Abu Dhabi thread?
I'd appreciate it, honestly—my nerves are already shot.
If someone does step up, considering how superstitious everyone here gets about starting race threads, I’d love it if a Ferrari-like or McLaren-like fan took the lead 🙏.

cosmicridge5 said:I love you like a brother, Joshua Newman2, but man, you totally missed the mark on this one. 😁

If you haven't caught onto Webber's character flaws by now, I’m honestly not even gonna bother listing them anymore. It's like trying to describe the sun to someone who can't see—just a total waste of breath. 🙂

And this other thing—come on, give me some actual, concrete examples—besides that one famous wing everyone’s already written entire novels about—that prove Red Bull is actually pushing Webber into that No. 2 spot?!

It just goes to show how a lie, if you have someone like that absolute psycho Webber repeating it over and over again, eventually starts feeling like the truth. 😁

Look, the kid didn't miss the mark at all... he actually nailed it. He said exactly what needed to be said.

What kind of defects are we even talking about here? Seriously, just lay it out for me. I’m basically flying blind over here, man... so if you could just point me in the right direction and pull me along, that would be huge.

Just let those weird wings go, man... they don't even matter in the grand scheme of things.

Just look at the points standings with only three races left on the calendar and then take a good long look at how Red Bull is actually playing the game...

Honestly, I’m actually kind of relieved that Red Bull isn't dealing with those messy team orders like Ferrari does. But man, look at the absolute disaster Ferrari pulled off in Germany. It’s like they only have a theoretical shot at winning, yet they’re still out there screwing over Felipe Massa just so some crybaby can snag first place.

I'm not saying Sebastian Vettel should've just let Mark Webber go at that exact moment, but look, some things just have to be handled. You can't just wing it; you've got to sit down, make the call, and actually agree on the plan beforehand. It’s like when you're trying to coordinate a group trip—if nobody agrees on the destination or the budget ahead of time, everything just falls apart. Sometimes you just have to take decisive action and get everyone on the same page.

So, look, Vettel is here now, but let’s be real—he only made this move because he’s basically at war with Webber. It’s a total mess. And since Red Bull refuses to step in and play peacemaker, they’re just letting the drama unfold. Honestly? Because they won't pick a side or fix the tension, there's a massive chance he's going to blow the championship. It's like watching a house fire while the firefighters just stand there watching.

Man, who even remembers that whole showdown between Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso back when Kimi Räikkönen was the champ? Just one of those wild eras, I guess.

Honestly, even now that the blue team finally got their act together... if they had just pulled it off sooner, we’d be talking about a championship title right now. It's crazy how close it feels.
If they hadn't been constantly crashing into each other, we wouldn't be looking at those massive points losses for Webber... which basically brings us right to where we are now. It's crazy to think about what could've happened if they just played nice.

Look, no team would ever act this way if they weren't banking on Sebastian Vettel. It’s pretty obvious, right? They’re basically building their entire future around him, just holding their breath and hoping he can pull off that championship run.

Look, I get it. It’s more about the love of the game than being some thirty-something champion, and honestly, I can respect that. But you just can't sit there and claim Webber wasn't the No. 2 driver. They didn't give him any kind of edge over Vettel... nothing at all.

Man, I was actually pretty stressed out yesterday when they played that team radio clip of Sebastian Vettel asking about his tire situation...

He says things are looking good, but honestly? I don't care. I still want to be the first one hitting the pits. 🙏

I mean, what part of that is confusing to you? 😉

redheron12 said:Formula 1 is just one of those sports where Mark Webber isn't exactly the first guy who'd step over anyone to get ahead.🤷

Doesn't matter, the point is he stirred the pot and totally threw Sebastian Vettel's crew off their game.🤷

Yeah, it’s pretty obvious because Red Bull hasn't had a single logical move all season—this whole year proves it.🤣

Man, you really summed it up in just three sentences there.🙏

First off, you can't judge a driver if they aren't willing to do absolutely anything to grab that world title...

And look, we can all talk our trash, but Mark is the one living in that garage 24/7; he knows exactly what's getting under his skin.

It’s only natural he’d lose his mind seeing things play out like this. And honestly, I won't even get into that whole wing drama, but I'd be losing my mind too if parts were being stripped off my car just to give them to the guy chasing me in the standings.

Plus, it feels sketchy, like nobody on that team actually has their head on straight right now.

Looking at the scenarios for the final race, I wouldn't even be surprised if they both just smash into each other, especially if they end up running 1-2.👎

Pato, you’ve got beer, man—you’ve got a whole damn brewery here. 🙏

You saved me a ton of nerves and time. 🤣

Anyway, the situation was basically identical across all three teams this season. The difference is two of them sorted it out, and the third one didn't. ☕

In two cases, they handled it properly via team radio and all that. In one, the faster driver ended up ahead (Ferrari), and in another, he ended up behind (McLaren)—mostly because he stayed calm and realized his teammate was acting like a wild animal and it was going to cost them both points.
Sebastian Vettel's biggest mistake this season was simply not realizing that. He tried to overtake Mark Webber and completely blew it.

It's funny how every single crash this season involving Mark Webber and anyone else ends with the opponent being knocked out while Webber stays in the race. Honestly, it's like he practices crashing on a daily basis. 🙏 Since he already wiped out the rest of the title contenders (Vettel and Lewis Hamilton), it’s only fair he takes out Fernando Alonso in the final race too. 😂

Regarding that infamous wing, someone from Red Bull (I think it was Christian Horner) claimed Mark asked for his old wing back because the new one wasn't working for him!
He only started throwing tantrums and causing panic once he realized that was the case.
Interestingly, Webber never actually denied the claim that he didn't want the wing in the first place.

Personally, I totally get Webber. His actions make perfect sense to me. He doesn't have any other choice—he can't win a championship solely on his own driving talent, and he knows it. This whole mess is happening precisely because he needs Vettel to let him past every single race and keep the competition at bay.

The core issue is that Vettel doesn't understand how Red Bull actually operates. With Webber (probably just due to experience), things don't happen fast at Red Bull. Christian Horner won't dare make a snap decision because every major move follows this exact system:

Horner calls Matešić—asks what to do.
Matešić calls Mark—asks what he thinks.
Matešić calls the shareholders—asks what they think.
Matešić calls Mark—they say "we think X," then ask "what do you think about that?"
Matešić calls a marketing expert—asks how this will impact Red Bull sales in some random country.
Matešić calls Horner—tells him to do it this way.
Mark calls Horner—says "don't do it the way Matešić told you, do it this way instead."

And Horner still has absolutely no clue what he's doing. 😂

stormybadger8 said:I totally get where Webber is coming from, man. His moves make perfect sense to me—there really isn't any other way for him to play it. He knows he can't just snatch the championship solely based on his own driving talent, so this whole mess is basically because he needs Vettel to just step aside and let him through every single race, while keeping the rest of the competition at bay.

What are you even talking about???' "solely on his own driving"... dude, for crying out loud, the guy has the exact same number of wins as Vettel, except Vettel snatched that one clean win away from him during that collision involving Lewis Hamilton...

Look, you might not like a certain driver, but downplaying them like this? Man, it’s like we're disrespecting Ayrton Senna or something.🙄

If anyone is actually the No. 1 driver at Red Bull, it's Mark Webber.☕

Turkey—Webber is the slower guy on track,but the team stays dead silent.
His faster teammate catches up, and instead of letting him through, he crowds him off the line.
That idiot Vettel just yanks at the wheel to scare Webber—god, being young, green, and overconfident is a hell of a thing.🤦

Turkey—Hamilton is the slower driver on track, and the team tellsthe faster Jenson Buttonto just save fuel.☕

It’s blindingly obvious what a great day it is for Webber to be way closer to No. 1 status than Vettel.
Nobody even asked Webber to let Vettel past—even if they should have in Turkey for the sake of the team, or told Vettel to back off—the team didn't react at all.🤦
For months now, the media has been begging the faster Vettel to just let the slower Webber go.

You geniuses... Vettel basically has to spend half the season letting the slower Webber pass just because Webber refused to yield to the faster Vettel and snatched a 25-point lead.

Honestly, Felipe Massa acted just as idiotic in Germany as Webber did in Turkey; there's no difference, just proof that stupidity is contagious.☕
Unlike Red Bull, Ferrari handled their business loud and clear: "Alonso is faster than you, GET IT?"

Alonso was faster than Massa, period.
Now, that isn't fair, and I'm not making excuses for it. It’s not fair because according to the rules, you shouldn't do that, and by those same rules, Red Bull would be punished if they said anything like that to Webber in Turkey. It’s just not right that Ferrari gets away with it while everyone else isn't allowed.

Massa isn't a No. 2 driver; he's a joke. He hasn't been faster than Alonso all damn season—not even close. He was ahead of him once in Germany, and even then, he was slower.
Up until now, the only person he's been close to is a totally unmotivated, half-drunk Kimi Räikkönen, and that's it. He's never been close to anyone else, and he never will be again.☕

Frankly, I’d think the management at Ferrari was moronic if they let Massa hold Alonso up.
I feel the exact same way about the Red Bull leadership for stripping Webber of his right to hold back the faster Vettel. Unfortunately, that's just what I expected from the start of the season.👎

stormybadger8 said:Pato, you've got plenty of beer—you've basically got a whole brewery's worth of Pivo here 🙏

you’ve saved me so much stress and time🤣

Actually, if you look at the situation across all three teams this season, they were all essentially identical, except for the fact that two of them sorted it out while the third one didn't.☕

In two cases, it was handled properly via team radio and all that. In one, the faster driver ended up ahead (Ferrari), and in another, he finished behind (McLaren)—primarily because he stayed calm and realized his teammate was being a wild man, knowing it would cost them both points.
Sebastian Vettel's biggest blunder this season was failing to realize that reality; instead, he tried to overtake Mark Webber and completely blew it.

It’s quite interesting how every single collision this season involving Webber and anyone else seems to end with his opponent being knocked out while Webber keeps racing. Honestly, it’s almost as if he practices those crashes on a daily basis.🙏 Since he already wiped out the rest of the title contenders (Vettel and Lewis Hamilton), I suppose it's only fair he takes a shot at Fernando Alonso in the final race.😂

As for that infamous wing, someone from Red Bull (I think it was Christian Horner) claimed that Mark specifically asked for his old wing back because the new one just wasn't working for him!
It was only once he realized that was the case that he started making a scene and creating this whole drama.
Interestingly enough, Webber never actually denied the claim that he didn't want the wing in the first place.

Personally, I completely understand Webber. His actions make perfect sense to me; he doesn't really have any other choice. He knows he can't win a championship solely on his own driving talent, and that's exactly why he's acting this way—he needs a Vettel who will let him pass in every race to stay ahead, while keeping the competition at bay behind him.

The core issue is that Vettel doesn't seem to grasp how Red Bull actually functions. Webber, perhaps due to sheer experience, knows that nothing happens quickly at Red Bull. Christian Horner won't dare make a snap decision because every major move follows this specific hierarchy:

Horner calls Matešić—asks what to do.
Matešić calls Mark—asks what he thinks.
Matešić calls the shareholders—asks what they think.
Matešić calls Mark—they give their input, then ask, "What do you think about that?"
Matešić calls a marketing expert—to see how this might affect Red Bull sales in some random country.
Matešić calls Horner—says, "Do it like this."
Mark calls Horner—says, "Don't do it the way Matešić told you; do it this way instead."

And Horner is still left standing there with no clue what to do.😂

That's exactly how Toyota operated, too, and look where they ended up... 👎

rustystag7 said:What are you even talking about??? I’m talking about my own driving, man. For God's sake, the guy has the same number of wins as Sebastian Vettel, except Vettel snatched that clean win away from Lewis Hamilton because of that collision...

You can hate a driver all you want, but this kind of disrespect is insane. It's like we're talking about Ayrton Senna here.🙄

In Turkey, Webber beat Vettel in a clean win, not the other way around.☕

Back in the day, Schumacher wouldn't dream of letting a faster teammate like Nico Rosberg pass him during a race. But with Webber, it's always a problem. For months afterward, he just complains and demands that the faster driver brake on track to let the slower one through, just because he’s pissed about having fewer than those 25 points advantage he lost to his own teammate.

Look, in Turkey, Webber shouldn't have had to brake. He didn't need to slow down. All he really had to do was not shove Vettel into the grass and leave a gap to overtake—simple as that.

Lewis Hamilton got handed that win by McLaren's pit wall and a sensible Jenson Button, not by Webber or Vettel. Seriously, did you even watch the Turkey race?😬

stormybadger8 said:In Turkey, it was actually Webber who snatched a clear victory over Vettel, rather than the other way around. ☕

There was a time when Schumacher was something else entirely. Honestly, damn him, he wouldn't let a single shred of his reputation slip through his fingers. faster Vettel It isn’t even about being a teammate to someone like Nico Rosberg; the real issue lies with Webber. For the next several months, he just keeps complaining, arguing that the faster driver should yield on track to let the slower one through. It’s ridiculous. He’s only throwing these tantrums because he’s bitter about losing that massive 25-point lead to his own teammate.

Look, let’s be real about what happened in Turkey. Webber shouldn't have backed off like that. Instead of slowing down and essentially forcing Vettel into the grass, all he really had to do was leave enough room for an overtake. If he’d just held his line and given him the space, the whole thing would have been over right then and there. Simple as that.

Lewis Hamilton didn't just stumble into that win; he was handed it on a silver platter by McLaren's pit strategy and a remarkably composed Jenson Button. It certainly wasn't thanks to Mark Webber or Sebastian Vettel. Honestly, what exactly were you watching during the Turkey race? 😬

And now, if I remind you that the vast majority of the experts—and most Formula 1 fans for that matter—believe Vettel was the one who caused that collision, you’ll probably just accuse me of trolling and threaten to report my post. Go ahead and report it if you want, but that won't change the fact that it doesn't make Webber responsible for what happened in Turkey.

Joshua Newman2 said:And look, if I bring up how almost every expert out there—not to mention basically all the Formula 1 fans—thinks Vettel was the one who caused that wreck, you're gonna jump down my throat and call me a troll or threaten to report my post. So go ahead, report it if it makes you feel better, but that’s not gonna change the fact that it wasn't Webber's fault in Turkey.

I don't even get why people waste their breath arguing over his posts when they don't make any sense logically at all....🤷

Honestly, I'm not even bothering to reply anymore. If you've got half a brain, you just watch how he was getting absolutely hammered by the whole car... but hey, he's the expert, right? 🙏

Joshua Newman2 said:If I remind you that most experts and F1 fans agree Vettel caused that crash, you're just going to call me a troll and threaten to report my post. Go ahead, report me if it makes you feel better, but it won't make Webber any less innocent for what happened in Turkey.

Look, what's even the issue? Vettel caused that collision by jerking the wheel. There’s really no debate about it.😉
I'm telling you, everyone's still arguing over who actually caused that crash.

That’s the whole point. It’s about what triggered Sebastian Vettel's reaction and why it happened in the first place. His outburst was just the fallout from Mark Webber shoving him off the track and his own refusal to back down. 😉

Whenever you’re staring down a problem, fixing the fallout doesn't mean squat. You can spend forever patching up the consequences, but if you don't go after the actual root cause first, you're just spinning your wheels. Fix the source, or you'll be stuck dealing with the same mess forever.

That’s exactly why Red Bull is struggling. They still haven't actually nailed down the root cause. Instead of fixing the actual issue, they've just been playing whack-a-mole with the symptoms. They keep trying to patch up the fallout rather than solving the core problem, which is why we're seeing the same mess on repeat.
It’s actually even worse than that—they haven't dealt with the cause or the fallout. They're just pretending nothing happened.

Joshua Newman2 said:And if I remind you that the vast majority of experts, and even most Formula 1 fans, believe Vettel caused that collision, you'll just accuse me of trolling and threaten to report my post. So go ahead and report me if you want, but that isn't going to make Webber responsible for Turkey.

Joshua Newman2, until you enrich your vocabulary with various members of the animal kingdom, all levels of mental deficiency, and a few verbs describing biological reproduction—nobody is going to take you seriously.

stormybadger8 said:Look, where's the actual debate here? There’s no point arguing about it—Vettel caused that collision by jerking the steering wheel. It’s that simple.😉

stormybadger8 said:I’d say there's still a fair amount of debate regarding who actually bears the blame for that collision.

stormybadger8 said:In Turkey, Webber actually snatched a clear victory away from Vettel, rather than the other way around. ☕

Like I’ve argued before, the only real grievance people have with Webber is that he actually turned out to be a better driver than anyone gave him credit for. He refused to play the part of the dutiful subordinate to his favored teammate, even when he had the championship points cushion and was leading the race.

Case closed. I rest my case. 🙏

@silvercobra68 - I apologize if I’m letting you down here, but my disagreement with TBFD isn't some clash of personalities. I have no intention of resorting to insults, personal attacks, or any kind of low-blow tactics. 😁

Joshua Newman2 said:Like I said before, the only thing people have against Webber is that he turned out to be a better driver than expected and didn't step aside for his "favored" teammate—who also happened to be his direct title rival—even when he had the points lead and was leading the race.

Case closed. 🙏

@joža - sorry if I'm letting you down, but my beef with TBFD isn't personal, so there's zero chance I'm going to start swearing, insulting anyone, or throwing tantrums. 😁

Gilbert, you forgot to mention the "faster teammate" part.

Look, Sebastian Vettel hadn't made a single driving error up to that point—he just had mechanical issues.
Sebastian Vettel was clearly faster than Mark Webber at that moment in the race; if you don't see that, you're blind.
If he wasn't faster, he wouldn't have caught him, and that overtake attempt wouldn't have even happened. ☕

The problem is Webber drove that duel like he was in a McLaren instead of a Red Bull.
Look, I get why he did it, but I don't get Horner. He let Sebastian Vettel go for the move on Webber without warning them both to watch their backs.
There are two ways he could've handled it:
A. Sebastian Vettel "save fuel," "watch the engine, it's dying," or whatever code translates to "don't overtake Webber."
B. Sebastian Vettel is faster than you, watch out so you don't do something stupid; don't ram each other or you'll get hit with massive penalties.

Horner didn't do anything wrong. He knows both Webber and Sebastian Vettel, and it was obvious from the air that things were going to get messy. Everyone saw it coming except him.

Webber stubbornly defended his position using tactics you just don't use against anyone, let alone a teammate.
Sebastian Vettel went for the pass recklessly, trying to use the same intimidation tactics Webber had used on him—it was just stupid.

The main one to blame for this mess is Horner. Both Sebastian Vettel and Webber are equally at fault, but if you ask me, Webber carries more blame. If he hadn't been pushing him out, I don't think Sebastian Vettel would have gone for it. Honestly, he might not have even made the pass because who knows how he would've taken the corner? Gilbert, I can't shake the feeling that this whole crash was what Webber wanted; like he'd do absolutely anything to make sure they collided.

Also, you're spreading misinformation. Webber didn't have any points advantage over Sebastian Vettel.☕

In Turkey, they both had 78 points. Webber only has the lead after Turkey, and he has it solely because of Turkey.☕

@ TBF
I’m with you on all points. You hit the nail on the head—honestly, people around here say the exact same thing.

The only thing I disagree with is your take on how Red Bull handles their issues, specifically that they're just pretending the problems don't exist.
It isn't that they're ignoring them; it's that they actually can't fix them. They've been stuck for a while now. They're just powerless, and things have spun completely out of their control.

There’s zero protectionist benefit to having Sebastian Vettel at Red Bull. If there were, Mark Webber would be sitting right where Felipe Massa is now.

stormybadger8 said:Turkey - Hamilton was just slower on track - the team told Jenson Button he needed to save fuel☕

Not quite... I think Button actually had maybe one extra lap of fuel, so he could have pushed at max for an extra lap if he wanted to.

It’s a shame—with rules like these, they basically reward playing it safe, while any real, hard-fought battle ends up getting penalized...

Gary Palmer8 said:Not really... Button probably just had an extra lap's worth of fuel, which let him push at max for one more lap.

Unfortunately, under these rules, they reward playing it safe while punishing anyone actually trying to fight for position...

Look, I can't say for sure, but we know Button was faster on track right then. We know he gave Hamilton space, and we know he didn't shove Hamilton off or block him.

We also know Button carries himself like a seasoned veteran, unlike Webber.

Sebastian Vettel and Hamilton are both just young guns.

Those two situations are identical, except Button actually respects his team and his teammate, whereas Webber clearly doesn't.

stormybadger8 said:Lewis Hamilton basically had that win handed to him by the McLaren pit crew and a super sensible Jenson Button—it definitely wasn't Webber or Sebastian Vettel's to lose. Honestly, what were you even watching during the Turkey race? 😬

Did you catch that team radio after they told Lewis Hamilton he needed to slow down? He actually asked if Jenson Button was going to try and make a move on him—it was such a tense moment!

The pit wall told him no—but look at that, Button's pulled it off anyway!

Of course—Lewis Hamilton fired back and took care of Button!

And now we’re hitting that part where everything is a total mystery—we just can't know yet!

Did Button have enough fuel left to make an attack—or would we have seen a situation where Hamilton had to park his car because he ran dry? I mean, there's no way they would have let Button go for it at that point! 😁