Naked at the doctor's office

Good grief, what is there even to argue about!
The very same people you're attacking are the ones who will be treating you tomorrow!
It’s not like they're some fringe group of voyeurs!
Instead of being glad that we actually have smart young people wanting to become doctors, you're all just sitting here tearing each other apart.
We aren't living in the Middle Ages where a bit of skin is considered a taboo subject.
Get a grip! 🙄

Brenda Cooper3 said:Honestly, I don't get why everyone is making such a huge deal out of this!
The very same people you're complaining about will be the ones treating you tomorrow!
It's not like they're some weird, voyeuristic group of outsiders!
Instead of being glad there are smart young people actually wanting to become doctors, you guys are just sitting here tearing each other apart!
We aren't living in the Middle Ages where a bit of skin is some massive taboo topic...
Get a grip! 🙄

It’s really not a conflict—everyone has the right to decide what they're comfortable with or not.
Personally, based on my own views, I wouldn't allow it, and if I were ever put in that position, I'd fight to make sure it stayed that way.
But there are millions of others with different perspectives who would be fine with it, so I honestly don't see the big drama here.

Sam Hall15 said:Look, if you choose to go to a teaching hospital, you're essentially signing up to be part of a learning environment. That means there will be residents or students involved in your care. It's just how it works. If that's an issue for you, then stick to private practices or your local community hospital.

1. In my view, a patient absolutely has the right to request that interns or other trainees stay out of the room.
2. Go ahead—name one major hospital in Washington, D.C. that isn't a teaching facility.\
3. If you think my first point is invalid, or if you can't manage to name even one large hospital in D.C. for point number two, then please explain: how is an American paying their health insurance premiums supposed to access care without being used as a training tool for students during their exams or treatments?

cosmicscout403 said:It’s true that patients have the legal right to refuse being examined by students, and that right is protected by law. But you have to wonder: isn't it better to let that student observe and actually learn something while they're still in school? It beats the alternative—having them graduate and then showing up to their private practice only to realize they had to teach themselves everything on the fly once they were already on the clock.

Look, Trevor made a fair point: first off, most people aren't going to say no, so students will naturally get plenty of observation time. Second, even if they don't see every single case, they won't be left behind; they'll reach the same level of competency regardless. And honestly, claiming this has to be allowed just because healthcare is "free" is a total non-starter. Healthcare isn't free.

When someone is undergoing a residency or fellowship, they are working under the direct supervision of a specialist. We aren't talking about a crowd of ten people swarming a patient; it's one resident performing the work while the specialist keeps watch. It's clinical training, not some spectacle in a public square.

Look, about 90% of medicine can't be learned from a textbook alone. If you just graduate, finish an internship, and then expect someone to work independently without any hands-on experience or supervision... well, we'd end up losing half the population. Unless you view this as some sort of way to solve overcrowding, I don't see the point... Besides, isn't it true that residents learn under the direct supervision of specialists? It's the same for students and interns. You aren't actually getting lower-quality care just because a student or intern examines you; if anything, they're often the ones who take those "routine" things—like patient history and physical exams—extremely seriously. Plus, their work is always reviewed and corrected by a senior doctor. Most medical schools are now moving toward keeping groups small, ideally no more than four students per doctor, if possible... I really think those claims of ten students per group are mostly unfounded, at least based on what I know about the universities I'm familiar with.

Sam Hall15 said:Look, you can't learn 90% of medicine just by watching. If you follow that logic, you end up with someone who finished med school and completed their residency, then they're suddenly expected to work completely solo without any oversight or practical experience beyond just observing... well, great, we'd probably kill half the population. Unless you're suggesting this as some way to solve overcrowding, I don't see the point. Isn't it true that residents only learn under the supervision of an attending? That's how students and interns work too. And honestly, the idea that you'll get inferior care just because a student or intern examines you isn't really fair. Often, they're actually the ones being most thorough and serious about the "basic" stuff, like taking a history or checking vitals. Plus, their work is always reviewed, and any mistakes are caught. Most medical schools are moving toward keeping groups small—no more than four students per doctor if possible, though sometimes even fewer. I think those stories about ten students crowded around one doctor aren't really accurate, at least not at the universities I'm familiar with.

You have a point there. For instance, a nurse isn't going to master drawing blood just by reading a step-by-step guide in a textbook; they need to actually do it on a patient. It's the same thing with giving injections. I suppose if someone strictly wants to deal only with doctors, they should just say so. It’s also interesting that nobody ever mentions grand rounds, when all the doctors are gathered together in one room!

I agree that hands-on learning is essential. It’s perfectly understandable why some people would feel incredibly awkward being examined in front of a group of ten, especially when dealing with sensitive areas. But honestly, aren't there simulators like Medtronic available? You start with the theory so you actually know what you're doing, then instead of immediately cutting into or poking live patients, you practice on rubber models. After that, you observe how it's done on actual patients before finally performing the procedure yourself under strict supervision.

I don't buy the argument that doctors would kill off half the population if they couldn't watch procedures being performed on patients first; that's a massive exaggeration. Sure, there would probably be some uncomfortable moments where a mistake is made and the patient gets angry, sues, or starts yelling...

Think about a complicated surgery. Who would you want operating on you: a complete novice, or the top specialist who’s been doing this for ten years, stays on the cutting edge of technology, and is known as the best in the field? Obviously, everyone wants the expert, not the rookie. How is this managed? Through administrative loopholes—patients generally can't hand-pick their surgeon unless they have private insurance, which gives them a bit more leverage (similar to how things work in Germany with the Chief physician treatment). That's exactly why insurance companies push these plans; people are terrified of ending up on a beginner's table.

I remember reading a great post once where someone described a hair follicle biopsy where a medical student basically butchered the patient. The attending physician was screaming at her about what she was doing and how there would be a scar, only to turn to the patient a second later and say, "Oh, don't worry, there won't be any mark at all." Heh. Talk about selective information.

Brenda Cooper3 said:Honestly, I don't understand why everyone is getting so worked up!
It's the exact same people who will be treating you tomorrow!
It's not like they're some group of creepy voyeurs!
Instead of being happy that there are smart young people eager to become doctors, you're all over here acting outraged!
We aren't living in the Middle Ages where skin is a taboo subject.
Get a grip! 🙄

And what exactly are you so outraged about? You're even making an issue out of the gynecology discussion. Can't you just be tolerant enough to accept the fact that people are different, and that not everyone shares your specific views or feelings?

If I'm not judging those who genuinely enjoy it (like you, apparently)—for instance, having ten students in a row examining them during a gynecological checkup without feeling exposed (at least not particularly)—then why do you feel the need to judge me and everyone else who finds that uncomfortable?

In principle, I can hold very progressive views; I didn't just crawl out of a cave yesterday, after all. I believe it's perfectly normal to visit a doctor, and it's completely normal that medical students need hands-on practice to learn.
But at the same time, speaking as a HUMAN being rather than a politically correct persona, I still feel incredibly uneasy at the thought of ten different people looking at and touching my most intimate areas without question.

Apparently, some people find that extremely hard to grasp. I really hope you aren't planning to be a doctor or a healthcare worker, because I wouldn't want to end up in the office of a physician who would laugh in my face or tell me I'm "not normal" just because I won't permit violations of my own privacy. Doctors should be empathetic and respect their patients, not look down on them and their rights.

Besides, from what I know, medical students take Consultative Psychiatry. You could do well to look up the chapters on Patient-Physician Relationships, Patient Reactions to Illness, and Emergency Medicine—dealing with acute patients—to learn a little more about the actual human beings lying on that exam table.

Doctors are professionals, sure, but there is no such thing as a "professional patient." If you lack empathy today, I don't know when you'll ever find it.

Regarding the claim that they aren't just some "creepy group of voyeurs," let's not forget how a few posts ago, one of the girls mentioned that four male med students were actually behind the door—with the Chief physician treatment's blessing, mind you—enjoying a view of her bare breasts. To top it off, he even gave them a conspiratorial wink and asked if they got a good look.
So... it turns out doctors aren't always saints or paragons of professionalism. As patients, we see right through it; we aren't that naive.

Why is it that when certain doctors listen to my lungs, they can do it without me even taking off my bra, yet others insist I strip down before they'll perform an exam? And why does my bra seemingly never bother female doctors, but always seems to be an issue for the men? Having dealt with asthma since I was six and being well into my thirties now, I've gathered plenty of empirical data on this subject.
And honestly, that's just the tip of the iceberg, so please spare me the lectures on "medical professionalism."

Great posts, Melissa James70 👍
I'm with you on everything you said. It's honestly hard to believe some people just can't wrap their heads around what you're talking about...

Melissa James70 🙏🙏

Oops, I lost my grip. Good grief, I’m just running back and forth aimlessly here.

Melissa James70 said:And regarding them not being a "creepy group of voyeurs," let's not forget how she mentioned in a few posts earlier that behind closed doors—with the Chief physician treatment's blessing—four male students were enjoying the view of her bare breasts, and he even gave them a conspiratorial wink and asked if they got a good look.
So... doctors aren't always saints or sworn professionals. And we patients know it; we aren't that stupid.

Why is it that when some doctors listen to my lungs, they can do it without me removing my bra, while others refuse to perform an exam unless I take it off? And why does my bra usually not bother female doctors, yet it bothers the men? Given that I've had asthma since I was six and I'm over thirty, I have plenty of empirical experience on this subject.
And that’s not the only thing I could mention, so spare me the lectures on "medical professionalism."

Why is it that when some doctors listen to my lungs, they can do it without me removing my bra, while others refuse to perform an exam unless I take it off? And why does my bra usually not bother female doctors, yet it bothers the men? Given that I've had asthma since I was six and I'm over thirty, I have plenty of empirical experience on this subject.
And that’s not the only thing I could mention, so spare me the lectures on "medical professionalism."

Because clearly, male doctors are much more thorough because they actually care about the patient's health...
I think you're exaggerating a bit. Out of everyone in the world, I highly doubt doctors care the least about your nudity...
Take me for example... I'm constantly turned on, but if I spend a month at the beach, after just a week I'm completely indifferent to all those women in bikinis; once the body gets used to it, there's no reaction. Now imagine how many pairs of breasts a doctor has seen—if he's seen 7,000 sets and still isn't satisfied, then maybe he's intentionally asking you to take off your bra.🤣

What do you mean by "exaggerating"? Are you suggesting I'm lying? Honestly, I don't have anything better to do with my time, and I certainly don't have the energy for nonsense. Over the last three years, I've averaged about two or three appointments a month for various checkups and treatments. While I’ve had plenty of wonderful experiences with incredibly professional people, I occasionally run into these other types. I have no issue being honest about either side. And just to be clear, I never claimed they were doing this for sexual gratification—I won't speculate on their motives, I am simply stating the facts of what happened. For instance, (take a look at that thread regarding gynecologists) why would a doctor perform an exam on a 15-year-old girl while she was completely naked, without her mother present, even though her mother was waiting right outside? That isn't how things are done. It was her very first exam and she had no idea what to expect, yet he knew perfectly well that patients don't just strip naked for a gynecological exam or parade around an office like that. He clearly took advantage of the situation.
So, please, spare me the hysterical laughing. You might find this funny now, but one day it might not be so amusing to you. Though, it seems obvious that something about this topic actually excites you, otherwise, you wouldn't have even brought it up.

I wasn't suggesting you were lying, rather that you might be perceiving every single move or glance from the doctor toward your chest as overly paranoid... that’s all I meant.

No, I’m not being paranoid about them checking out my chest. Honestly, given how many checkups, follow-ups, and therapy sessions I go through, I really can't afford to be paranoid. That doesn't mean I'm brain-dead, though. Thanks for your input.

Good grief... Smajlic pointed out how ridiculous it would be for someone to undergo all those tests and then specifically request to see you. If anyone should feel comfortable during an exam, it’s with the doctor. I started this thread to discuss interns,
not whatever direction this has taken—just mindless nudity talk. Forget that. I’ve been naked for exams myself, like for military checkups, and didn't mind, but I think having interns walk in would be pretty embarrassing...

Arthur Wright3 said:Man, oh man... Smalic was basically hinting that it would be ridiculous for someone to spend all that time being poked and prodded and then suddenly want privacy right when they need to be seen. If you're looking for a place where you can actually feel comfortable, it should be with the doctor. I started this thread specifically to talk about interns!
not about how the conversation has drifted toward just being naked—forget that... I’ve had to strip down a few times myself (for military stuff and other checkups) and it didn't bother me, but honestly, I think I'd feel pretty awkward if a bunch of interns were the ones walking in...

I have a question for everyone here...
who are these interns supposed to learn from?
Don't we already expose our most private selves the moment we walk into a GP's office and strip down so they can listen to our lungs and chest? Does the doctor even ask permission for that?
Like when they check your blood pressure and you have to take off your shirt...
Or rolling up a sleeve for a blood draw...
And don't even get me started on the OBGYN... I mean, who are gynecologists supposed to learn from then?
I feel like by simply visiting a doctor, we're agreeing to show our private selves.
Why is it so easy for women to show off their chests or bikinis at the beach, but suddenly it becomes an issue at the doctor's office?😕
I really empathize with anyone who feels uncomfortable during a medical exam, but I truly believe the doctor's office is the one place where we should leave those hang-ups at the door. Plus, no decent doctor is going to get offended if you just tell them you're feeling uneasy...
And if you feel like a doctor has crossed a line, just say so. That's what I do.☕

Every single one of your questions has already been answered in great detail right here in this thread, so if you just take a moment to read through a few of the previous posts...
There’s really no need to keep repeating things; we’ve all laid out our points and shared our arguments already.

Melissa James70 said:You’ve actually had pretty thorough answers to all your questions right here in this thread. If you just scroll through a few posts... there's really no point in repeating ourselves; everyone has already laid out their arguments and shared their thoughts.

To be honest, I haven't seen a single direct answer that would actually help someone studying for this...
And if everything has already been said, we might as well just lock the thread...
All I'm seeing is people bickering with one another...
Maybe I'm missing something... but what kind of questions or answers are we even looking for here? What has our actual experience been like regarding this? Is this just a place to vent about hospitals and medical centers... or are we sharing positive stories? I'm curious to hear from whoever started this thread...