Duje Draganja: Sellout or just misunderstood?

mellowbadger8 said:It's just my take and I'm not trying to judge anyone, unlike some people in here who start throwing shade at everyone else once they run out of actual points to make.🙄

Fair enough, props to you for that one.👍

mellowbadger8 said:Hey kid, how many athletic achievements have you actually pulled for the USA?

This is pure, unadulterated stupidity. So, just because I didn't represent the USA and snag a medal at the Olympics, does that mean I’m barred from commenting on what's happening in sports? 🙄

You have no idea what I went through—or didn't go through—here in America during the war. Don't get cocky with me. Go back and read my previous posts to you and try to find ONE single sentence that's as insulting as the one you just quoted above. Just ONE.

I've been living in the USA for the last few years, but I spent my entire competitive career back home, representing the US for years.
Back in '90, I had scholarship offers from a handful of US universities sitting right in front of me, but I turned them down. I stayed because I didn't want to be far from home during the war.

Fair enough. It's a shame that didn't affect you, and that you can't quite wrap your head around the sensitivity of changing citizenship just for the money.

Look, you can't live off those meager handouts from Franjo or some ridiculous scholarships, especially in a sport like swimming. And even after your career ends, it's nearly impossible to break through the bureaucracy and the hand-picked inner circle who seem to get everything while you're left struggling just to get something started. As for Duje Draganja, he can take that post-grad degree in America and shove it.

Poor unlucky Duje, he basically had to survive on whatever Stipa gave him 😢 and he never saw a dime from swimming itself. 😢

EEEEKK

WRONG.

Duje makes more than 80% of Americans. But apparently, that isn't enough for him because he wants millions.

You're being ridiculous because it's easy to claim things like that when you've never actually been put in a position where someone offered you something like that.
And what's even funnier is how nobody complains when foreigners win medals for us; talk about hypocrisy. Ljubicic wouldn't have had a shot playing for another country when his wasn't an option, but if he did, he would've played without a second thought. You guys love Peshalov, and all those volleyball medalists too. Irina is "one of ours," right? You people act like every other female athlete is Irina, don't you?😁 😁 😁 You people are driving me insane.
👋

So, am I supposed to be outraged because of Irina Kirilov and Peshalov?

For crying out loud, it's not like I view Peshalov as a brother to the Skelin brothers, mostly because Peshalov is Bulgarian and should have competed for his own country. He chose ours, and I'm grateful for it—just like I'd be grateful to Duje if I were Kataranin.

That still doesn't mean I’m defending anyone's move. Though, if I recall correctly, Peshalov didn't head off to Qatar or wherever else despite the fact that life wasn't exactly thriving back home in the States either. He came here because of his coach, if I'm not mistaken; the situation isn't quite the same as it is with Duje Draganja.

Irina Kirilov is Russian, but I don't know the specifics of why she ended up in America, and I highly doubt it was all about chasing millions of dollars.

Alright, for all the skeptics claiming that Duje's move is just "business as usual," how do you explain the reactions from Bart Kizierowski, Roland Schoeman, and Ryk Neethling? These guys—get this—actually REJECTED QATAR!

😲 😲 How could they possibly pass up an opportunity to rake in a million dollars? Man, what losers. 👎

Ryk Neethling said: "Are we really going to start switching countries like we're changing soccer clubs? Where does this end? Today it's Qatar buying out an entire relay team. Tomorrow it'll be the UAE. This whole thing is spinning out of control."

The Australian national swim coach, Alan Thompson, noted: It goes against everything sports should stand for when nations start shopping for top-tier swimmers.

Roland Schoeman:
I realize that today I am significantly poorer than I could have been, but I feel blessed knowing that "Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika" will play if I win gold.

South Africa is what it is today because of the sacrifices made by so many people over the years. That's what drives me—not chasing short-term gains, but working long-term so we can build something lasting for South African swimming.

There's no point in winning gold just to stand there and listen to someone else's anthem.
(Let's not forget, the offer Schoeman received was $1 million a year—double what Duje Draganja was offered.)

I just want to know if higher ideals actually exist, or if everything is just empty slogans and clichés. Is money really the only thing that matters?

Again, I never called Duje Draganja a "coward, jerk, or traitor," but I did say I don't support his decision. And look, he probably couldn't care less whether I support him or not, but how is he going to secure his family's future with this? (And he better secure it.) My point is, he could have lived a good life right here.

And what do I mean by "GOOD"?

Better than the vast majority of Americans. With a degree, with money, with prestige. Doors in the business world would have opened for him; he could have become a coach and eventually trained elite swimmers. He definitely wouldn't have ended up broke or on the streets.
But he wanted the cash, and he wanted it right now.

Good luck to him.

Carl Brooks22 said:Just imagine how much the staff would be losing their minds right now if they still hadn't managed to cook up a single thing after four years of trying.

How can you be so sure? Are you actually certain that Michael Phelps was even willing to play ball? After that whole mess with Qatar, he was supposed to sign a deal with State Farm, but they decided his asking price was just too steep. I mean, should they have really handed over whatever amount he demanded, even when their own analysts concluded it simply didn't make financial sense for them? 🙄 )
It all went south, and Michael Phelps just called it quits. If he’d actually stuck it out for a bit longer, we might have stumbled onto some kind of workaround. But even if we did find one, he's already gone.

There’s no way he was starving himself. Not a chance.

He really should have sat down and thought about this decision a hundred times over before pulling the trigger. You don't just make a move like this without fully grasping exactly what you're walking away from. And please, for the love of God, stop trying to compare this to some soccer player transferring between clubs. It’s not even in the same league.

We live in an era of everything being "instant"—instant soup, instant faith, instant lottery wins, even instant self-help books. Now, Duje has kicked off the season of "instant citizenship" acquisitions. Who knows? Maybe in a few years, we’ll actually be looking back and feeling proud of one of the pioneers who started this whole movement.😉

Maybe you will. I won't. Honestly? I’m actually embarrassed to even think about it.

Carl Brooks22 said:Look, if you actually listen to what the media is saying about Michael Phelps, it’s pretty clear the guy has basically abandoned everything. His citizenship, his faith, his passport... he’s even lost sight of who he actually is. He’s just drifting.

He turned his back on America. He had this incredible platform through the world of sports to show everyone just how much he loves his country. Most of us "nobodies" don't get that kind of privilege. It’s pretty obvious what happened here: he realized he’d rather have a bird in the hand than chase one on the fence.

To some people, America is nothing more than a pigeon.

Honestly, I have to wonder how prepared our brilliant geniuses actually were for these negotiations. It’s highly questionable, really. If you look at the facts, Michael Phelps hasn't received a single meaningful response in nearly three months. On top of that, they're still playing this ridiculous game of passing the buck, constantly shifting the blame between Michael Phelps, the HPS, and State Farm. It's just more of the same.

Do you actually have any idea how ready—or more accurately, how *unready*—they really were to stick to those agreements?

State Farm basically looked at the numbers and decided that what Mr. Phelps—or rather, what HPS is pushing on his behalf—is asking for is just way too much. From their perspective, they'd be taking on an insane amount of risk if they signed off on it. Honestly, you can't even blame them. It’s just common sense business.

Michael Phelps is just the second shoe to drop here. If he actually had the backbone for it—and let’s be honest, if he actually had the will—he could have stayed at the table and kept negotiating with the federation and the USOC. He could have pushed them until something actually got settled, or at least made sure something was finally being done.
If the kid is already looking for a payday, then let him go after it.

I don't think you're picking on Michael Phelps for any random or baseless reasons—honestly, nobody else on this board is either. And look, I’m not exactly jumping for joy here; I know we’re going to be coming home from these upcoming meets and random championships with much shorter lists of medals than we'd like. But if you ask me, this whole situation could have been handled way more smoothly for the sake of American swimming. If the folks over at Hanes just showed a little more backbone and actual determination, we wouldn't be in this mess.

I honestly couldn't care less about some medals. What really gets under my skin is the fact that the whole world knows people in America are out here switching their citizenship just for a few thousand bucks.

Look, if we were living in Austria and someone decided to go compete in swimming for Germany, I wouldn't be backing that either. Honestly, I can't stand the idea. But compared to what’s happening right now? That’s nothing. We're talking about a nation that fought tooth and nail—went through absolute hell—just to secure its independence and claim even a tiny slice of land as its own. This situation makes those comparisons look trivial.

You’d think that people actually living here would have a bit more respect or some actual love for their own country.

L.NimoyInvadesMetal~ said:How would you know? Are you certain Michael Phelps was actually willing to cooperate? After that whole mess with Qatar, Phelps needed to sign a deal with State Farm, but they decided his asking price was just too high (though, frankly, they should have given him what he wanted since the experts said it was worth it, right?)🙄 )
That fell through, and Phelps just walked away. If he had waited, a solution might have surfaced, but even if it didn't, he

1) Certainly wasn't starving.

You don't need to be a genius to realize that if you spend three months "negotiating" and the people on the other side can't manage to state a position—offering nothing but vague political rhetoric instead—you should probably realize you're running out of time. If the other party hasn't come up with a single concrete proposal, there’s no meal at the end of that conversation.
And I'm telling you—it was in the news—State Farm representatives told the public they hadn't realized during negotiations that the $800,000 sponsorship request wasn't for one year, but for four! Can you imagine how those talks were handled? (Or maybe the folks over at State Farm are just struggling with basic math?)
As for waiting for things to "just happen," you can forget about it. People are tired of waiting.

In a country that sold off its coastline, its telecom companies, and its banks—a country that trades its own generals like commodities—one swimmer practically rented himself out to Qatar for the agreed term. It was a massive failure all around.

And why is everyone constantly insisting that Phelps "wasn't hungry"? For heaven's sake, is a man supposed to settle for the bare minimums provided to residents of some run-down public housing project?
The guys working sanitation for the city transit system are proof enough that you can survive without guaranteed income. So, from that perspective, I guess we're supposed to conclude that anyone who decides to find something more than a quarter loaf of bread and some cheap canned meat elsewhere—anyone trying to find success by "selling oneself" while working in a country owned by foreign interests—is just a total joke. Oh, and Phelps got plenty of heat for it, too. We don't even care about the medals anymore; this is just about principle.
I have my principles.

L. NimoyInvadesMetal said:He turned his back on America. He had the privilege of showing the world how much he loves his country through sports. We "anonymous" folks don't have that luxury. Clearly, he decided a bird in the hand is better than none at all.

To some people, America is just nothing more than a pigeon.

It seems there wasn't even a pigeon in this story to begin with...

Carl Brooks22 said:And why is everyone constantly harping on about how Michael Phelps "wasn't hungry"... I mean, give me a break. Is a person really supposed to just settle for the bare minimum scraps handed out to the residents of some low-rent public housing project?
Look at the transients and the bottom-feeders riding the city buses; they're living proof that you can survive without any guaranteed income. So, from that perspective, I guess we’re supposed to conclude that anyone who decided to find something better than a crust of bread and a cheap deli pate—anyone who actually tried to chase happiness by "selling oneself" working in real estate for some foreign firm—is just a complete joke. Oh, and Michael Phelps got slapped with a fine for it too, and honestly, who cares about the medals anymore? It's just a matter of principle now.
Yeah, right. Principles.

Please, don't try to dodge the point with demagoguery. 😉

When people say "Michael Phelps wasn't hungry," they aren't talking about whether he had enough to eat or if a slice of bread was "enough" for him. They mean he had every single opportunity to SUCCEED, both in business and in sports, to build a career, and to have a nation that absolutely adores him. Not the government—not the Congress, the administration, and the mob—but the PEOPLE. And the people see everything, and they hold grudges. This is one of those things that even the most tolerant person just can't look past.

Besides, I figured you wouldn't even bother mentioning the decisions made by those swimmers from South Africa and Poland 🙂 because there's simply no explanation for it, just like there isn't for anyone else (I get it, since those guys pretty much mirror my own views 🙂 )

If Michael Phelps, or you, or someone else thinks differently, I'm not judging. Feel free. This is a free forum, after all. 😁.

But for certain things, you just don't have an answer, because rational thought through a purely materialistic lens offers zero explanation.

😉

Carl Brooks22 said:It’s like there wasn't even a pigeon involved in this whole mess...

wasn't? I mean, look at where we live. You think we're living in North Mexico? Or maybe freaking Surinam? 😁

L. NimoyInvadesMetal~ said:Even if we lived in Austria and someone decided to swim for Germany, I wouldn't support that either, but compared to this mess, it’s nothing. A country that fought so incredibly hard for its independence and its tiny slice of land...

You’d think people living here would show a bit more consideration or love for their own country.

... or... you'd think that the PEOPLE who struggled so much for that independence and that little piece of land—or something more personal—that a guy who spent the last few years celebrating it through his own pride and success actually deserves more...

... or... one might assume this country has a bit more respect and affection for its citizens... even if they happen to be swimmers...

Chicken or the egg? The chicken.

And btw, at the end of the day, when all is said and done... if this country can hand over $200,000 a year to one of its own companies—I’d much rather see those funds go toward hospital equipment than into water...
But I won't even get started on how infuriating it is to see money wasted on so-called "Haenle-style" ball chasers. Geonoa, Turin, Fiorentina, Atletico... they can all drop to lower leagues because of finances... except for our two football giants that have been coasting on government money and debt forgiveness since the Yugoslavia era... but that's a different story—let's not compare apples to oranges...

L. NimoyInvadesMetal said:Really? As if we live in North Mexico. Or maybe Surinam. 😁

I was referring to the financial pigeon...😉

L. NimoyInvadesMetal~ said:Please, don't try to dodge this with demagoguery.😉

When I say "Michael Phelps wasn't hungry," I’m not talking about whether he had a crust of bread to call a meal. I mean he had every single opportunity to succeed—both in business and in sports—to build a career and gain the adoration of an entire nation. Not the government (the legislature, the administration, the mob), but the PEOPLE. And people notice everything; they hold grudges. This is one of those things even the most tolerant person can't just overlook.

By the way, I assumed you wouldn't comment on the decisions made by the swimmers from South Africa and Poland🙂 since there's simply no explanation for that, much like there is for anyone else (I get it, those guys basically mirror my own thoughts)🙂.

If Michael Phelps, or you, or someone else thinks differently, I have no problem with that. This is a free forum, after all.😁.

But for certain things, you just don't have an answer, because rational thought through a purely materialistic lens offers no explanation.

😉

I simply met your demagoguery with the same measure.😉

So how do you explain the fact that the very people you're championing as the ultimate judges actually support Michael Phelps' decision by about 66%? Meanwhile—for some reason—you claim to favor the decisions of the South African and Polish swimmers... though I'd personally prefer Michael Phelps had stayed, but I'm certainly not judging him... I wouldn't shake his hand or congratulate him on leaving, but still...

And I don't have answers for many things either (from the pyramids to the Kolos from Rhodes, to certain solutions by Ott barica and Neven Spahija...🙂) — and regardless of the observation that "rational thought through a materialistic lens offers no explanation."😁

Carl Brooks22 said:... or... you'd think that PEOPLE who fought so damn hard for independence and a piece of this land—or even something more personal—that someone who’s been celebrated by the country through his pride and achievements over the last few years actually deserves a bit more respect...

... or... you'd think this government actually had some consideration and love for its own citizens... even if they just happen to be swimmers...

The chicken or the egg? The chicken.

The government is one thing; politicians come and go, but the American flag and the coat of arms stay. This time, hopefully, they're here to stay forever.🙂

It's not like the PEOPLE were denied anything; it wasn't like the public or the USA turned their backs on him. It was the people in power, the ones making the calls.

But he turned his back on America. Unfortunately, there isn't any other way to look at it. There's no need to get overly dramatic about it—nobody's dying, and the kid is alive and well (thank God for that), but dammit, in my opinion, he made the wrong call.

But you know how it goes: let him who is without sin cast the first stone...

Carl Brooks22 said:So how exactly do you explain the fact that the very people you're holding up as the ultimate moral authority actually support Duje's decision by about 66%? On one hand, you're acting like the opinions of those swimmers from South Africa and Poland matter more than this... Look, I would have preferred if Duje stayed, but I'm not judging him. I wouldn't go out of my way to shake his hand and congratulate him on leaving, but that's where I stand.

Man, give me a break. You've got a point, people really are backing him up here. It makes me wonder why I'm even busting my ass and getting worked up if 66% of the country feels just like Michael Phelps and would rather pack up and head out too.

It looks like the money situation is tightening up. That old excitement is being replaced by lethargy, and this deep-seated pessimism is just sinking into the skin of Americans. People have stopped believing things will get better—and honestly, why should they? All we get from politicians is a daily stream of empty platitudes. Just hollow words and decisions made solely to cover their own backs.

They only seem to show up when we're world champions at something, or when Janica is winning a Cup, or when they're finally breaking ground on a major highway like the one connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco. Otherwise, they're nowhere to be found.

So, I get where you're coming from. It's not that you love his choice, you just aren't condemning him either. I'm pretty much in the same boat, though I guess we differ in that I just can't bring myself to justify what he's doing.🙂

We also have to consider how the kid is feeling. I'm sure it isn't easy for him right now. It’s not like he suddenly loves Qatar or doesn't give a damn about America; he made his choice, and now he has to see it through and man up.🙂

I wish him luck with it all. 👋

I've actually got an idea for Duje Ladackog and guys like him to rake in even more cash:

Instead of just negotiating with one single country, they could just list themselves on eBay as an auction:

for example,

"For sale or rent: used Olympic medalist Duje Draganja, representing the USA. Going to the highest bidder."
(assuming he doesn't charge an extra $500/hour for smoking, swallowing, or... other activities)

Starting bid: $500,000

Earthling said:I just gave you a taste of your own medicine when it comes to all that demagoguery😉

So how do you explain the fact that the public—the group you’re acting like the ultimate moral authority—actually supports the Duo's decision by like, 66%? On one hand, I'm totally fine with what those swimmers from South Africa and Poland decided... and honestly, I'd much prefer if the Duo stayed put, but hey, I'm not judging him or anything... I wouldn't exactly go out of my way to shake his hand and say "congrats on leaving," but still...

There are plenty of things I just can't wrap my head around (everything from the pyramids to the Colossus at Rhodes, down to some of those wild solutions from Ott barica and Neven Spahija... 🙂 ) - and regardless of that point about how "rational thinking through a purely materialistic lens doesn't offer an explanation"...😁

I'll tell you what... once you've got $500,000 sitting in your pocket, $5 million doesn't even feel like that much anymore!! It's a ton of money, sure, but it's ten times that amount, so it's awesome that you can make it happen fast!!

But look at your average American worker who might get lucky enough to pull in $50k a year$0.00 and then ask them if they'd pack up and move to another country for $5 million. To me, that seems pretty obvious, and I'm actually surprised only 66% of people said they'd do it.

unnamed~ said:unnamed:
Look, I realize I’m walking away from today significantly poorer than I probably should have been, but honestly? I feel pretty lucky knowing that if I manage to snag that gold, they'll be playing the anthem of the South African liberation movement during the ceremony. cut

🙏 and the rest of the post is 👍

rustystag7, look, it’s obvious you’ve never actually handled 500k, because there is absolutely no comparison between that and 5 million—honestly, saying otherwise is just pure nonsense.
I’m not exactly thrilled about how things work either, and man, I’d love nothing more than to see people in this country actually making that kind of money, or seeing massive international corporations step up to sponsor our athletes the way they do for foreign stars, but that's just the reality we're stuck with—the reality of being a relatively small nation where even a giant like Nike doesn't give us a second thought. The market of a few million broke Americans isn't enough to move the needle, so our athletes are forced to just scrape by and hustle for every cent. That's just the way it is, but honestly, it would be a much better deal for everyone if unnamed just set aside a few hundred thousand to fix up the local swimming facilities in Miami or something similar. In everyone's eyes (if you ask me), that would be a way to make things right. It would be much better if State Farm stepped up to renovate some elementary school gyms, or if the government actually supported young athletes instead of dumping cash into guys like unnamed, those stadium projects for the local big-name teams, or other failing ventures.
When I see how much investment goes into school sports here in the USA and the kind of support these kids get, it’s no wonder our athletes are so dominant. There are plenty of factors at play, but I really think that foundation is the most vital part: free public courts. Nowadays, in America, you can't even go out to play tennis without having to pay some fee. We don't have enough municipal, open-access courts. THAT is what we're missing—well-maintained city basketball courts, soccer fields... if we had those, you'd see just how massive our talent pool could become. As it stands, sports are only an option for people who already have the cash, and there aren't many people like that in the US.

mellowbadger8 said:rustystag7, it’s obvious you’ve never actually handled 500k, because there is a massive difference between that and 5 million. Seriously, saying they're comparable is just nonsense.

Look, I don't support how things are going either. I wish people here could pull in those kinds of numbers and that big corporations—you know, the huge international brands—would sponsor our athletes the way they do for foreign stars, but that's just the reality we live in. It's the reality of a small country where even a giant like Nike isn't really interested. The market size for a bunch of broke Americans is just too low, so our athletes have to scrape by just to get by. That’s just how it is. Honestly, it would be better if that unnamed guy just set aside a few hundred thousand to fix up the beach in Miami or something similar. In everyone's eyes, I think he'd finally redeem himself. It would also be better if State Farm fixed up some elementary school gyms, or if the government actually supported young athletes instead of dumping cash into guys like unnamed, stadium projects for the local pro teams, or other failed ventures.
When I see how much is poured into youth sports here in the US and the kind of opportunities those kids get, it’s no wonder our athletes are so elite. There are tons of factors, but I think that foundation is the most important thing. Free parks. Nowadays, you can't even go play tennis without paying a fee. There aren't enough public courts or open spaces. That's what we're missing—well-maintained city basketball courts, soccer fields... man, if we had those, imagine the talent pool we'd have. As it stands, only the kids with money can afford to play sports, and there aren't many of those folks around here.

Listen, nobody is saying 500k is the same as 5 mil, I'm just talking about the scale of the difference and how many times larger one is than the other!! You can't tell me that earning 50k is the same as what someone like a high-level executive makes, because the way people get money varies, and 50k doesn't mean the same thing to everyone.

It is definitely not the same earning 25 $0.00 a month versus 100,000 a month!! And let me ask you, if someone offered you 200,000 bucks, who do you think is going to swallow a load faster, if you catch my drift...

I agree with some of your points, but I totally disagree with your take on finishing the stadium!!
All we can do is regret that the previous administration didn't call for another year to finish that stadium, because once the leadership changed, the work just stopped, and now it's just an eyesore for the city. They stopped construction so abruptly that the roof started leaking and ruined a huge chunk of it!!
We definitely need to invest in unnamed and his crew because they are our future. Just remember that third-place finish in France and tell me if investing isn't worth it. But the investment needs to be unified, not just so certain kids can play simply because their parents have deep pockets...
What can I say? When I was going to school, the guys playing were usually from families that had money since they were 5 or 7 years old $0.00 back in the year 2000 or so...
And now, I've got this kid telling me—he was sent out on loan from the local club's affiliate—that they finally replaced the coach who was just pocketing money. He says he can finally focus and try to make the first team again...
It's pure absurdity. He says players who were top of their class last season are all being sent away on loan or kicked out of the club, while "nepotism babies" step onto the scene and finish the season near the bottom. And nobody can do anything about the coach...
Now that he's finally got a decent shot, a normal coach has taken over, and he says those guys coming back from loans are absolutely dominating the "nepotism babies" at practice, beating them by 7 or 8 goals every time. For a real talent, that can mean years of wasted potential, and it's just as bad for the club.

unnamed sent his regards from the general office 👋

mellowbadger8 said:In the US today, you can't even go hit some tennis balls without paying for it. There aren't enough free public courts. That’s what we need—well-maintained municipal basketball courts, soccer fields... then you'd see how huge the talent pool could actually be. Right now, sports are basically just for people with money, and there aren't many of those folks around here.

I agree with you. In our neighborhoods (especially over in Miami), free playgrounds are nonexistent. They built all these little fenced-in soccer cages that you have to pay to use, or they rent out elementary school gyms, while the few free spots we have are always packed.

Every one of our athletes had the chance to represent some other, wealthier nation.
And hey, good for them, I guess!
I don't hold anything against unnamed; he made his choice, but I'm definitely not going to be throwing him a parade for it.