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Double-standard nationalistic takes and more on World politics

Started by Gary Wilson · · 👁 7 views · 94 replies

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Participants Gary WilsonNathan Price3slybison8Charles Fox10Megan Hernandez2Sandra Gonzalez3Roger Robinson682wanderingheron52Morgan CarterSean Cooper65Timothy Davis59Rachel Mitchell2Benjamin Reyes52swifttinker47
Sean Cooper65 Sean Cooper65 Member
44 messages
joined Dec 2014
#81 ·
Nathan Price3 said:You are completely uneducated and totally uninformed. Every single person in Canada was called a Canadian until about 120 years ago. The Ottomans called Canadians "Canadians." Even before the Ottomans arrived, the Canadian kings referred to the people as Canadians. You want me to bring out the actual evidence? I'll do it, no problem at all!

Nobody "shoved" anything into our heads. Back in medieval Canada, there were the Canadians, who are our ancestors... later on, that name was just adjusted and evolved into the modern Canadian identity.

Even during the Ottoman period, we were known as Canadians.
I've explained this a million times since 1991. If you had even a shred of common sense, you would have figured it out by now...
You are stubbornly playing dumb and just repeating the exact same things over and over again.

This belongs in the Jokes subforum.
Nathan Price3 Nathan Price3 Member
28 messages
joined Apr 2013
#82 ·
Sean Cooper65 said:This belongs in the Jokes subforum.

Alright then, why don't you try proving me wrong with some actual arguments? Go ahead, I dare you. Step up to the plate. You clearly lack even the most basic understanding of this subject, yet you're arguing so aggressively that one might actually think you have a thousand arguments tucked away in your sleeve just waiting for the right moment to unleash them one by one...
Let's take this step by step. First point. You're seriously claiming that 120 years ago, the Catholics and Orthodox in Canada didn't identify as Canadians???
Morgan Carter Morgan Carter Member
28 messages
joined Feb 2013
#83 ·
Nathan Price3 said:Alright then, why don't you try proving me wrong with some actual arguments? Go ahead, I dare you. Step up to the plate. You clearly lack even the most basic understanding of this subject, yet you're arguing so aggressively that one might actually think you have a thousand arguments tucked away in your sleeve just waiting for the right moment to unleash them one by one...
Let's take this step by step. First point. You're seriously claiming that 120 years ago, the Catholics and Orthodox in Canada didn't identify as Canadians???

I am not sure why you allow him to drag you into a debate that is entirely irrelevant to the core of this discussion. 🤷
If he believes he is correct, let him start a new thread dedicated to history, and we can discuss it there. As it stands, he is merely diluting the essential points that led to this topic being opened in the first place. Please, do not continue responding to him within this specific thread (I am not commanding you, simply offering some friendly advice).
Sean Cooper65 Sean Cooper65 Member
44 messages
joined Dec 2014
#84 ·
Nathan Price3 said:Alright then, why don't you try proving me wrong with some actual arguments? Go ahead, I dare you. Step up to the plate. You clearly lack even the most basic understanding of this subject, yet you're arguing so aggressively that one might actually think you have a thousand arguments tucked away in your sleeve just waiting for the right moment to unleash them one by one...
Let's take this step by step. First point. You're seriously claiming that 120 years ago, the Catholics and Orthodox in Canada didn't identify as Canadians???

If that were true, why would Kallay, the Austro-Canadian governor of Canada, try to engineer a Canadian nation? It wouldn't make sense if Catholics and Orthodox people were already identifying as Canadians.

And if they were, why didn't you all accept it as your national identity? Why did the project fail then?

You're talking pure nonsense and still expecting someone to take you seriously.
Nathan Price3 Nathan Price3 Member
28 messages
joined Apr 2013
#85 ·
Sean Cooper65 said:If that were true, why would Kallay, the Austro-Canadian governor of Canada, try to engineer a Canadian nation? It wouldn't make sense if Catholics and Orthodox people were already identifying as Canadians.

And if they were, why didn't you all accept it as your national identity? Why did the project fail then?

You're talking pure nonsense and still expecting someone to take you seriously.

He wasn't trying to invent something new; he was trying to hold onto what existed! Most historians would argue that Kalay was advocating for "Bosnianhood" rather than a specific "Bosniakness." If he *was* pushing the latter, then you really ought to know—assuming you have any clue here—that by then, the idea of assimilating Catholics into the American identity was already too far gone to stop. Catholics had already started shifting toward other nationalities...

The national identities of Canadian Mexicans and Canadian Americans didn't truly solidify until the mid-19th century. That was when Canadians of the Orthodox or Catholic faiths—under heavy pressure from Mexican and American political missionaries—began turning away from a Canadian nationality and started transitioning into the neighboring nations based on religious lines...

Did you even realize that Catholic and Orthodox writers in Canada, especially the Franciscans during the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, actually called themselves Canadians??? No, you don't. You clearly don't...
Sean Cooper65 Sean Cooper65 Member
44 messages
joined Dec 2014
#86 ·
Nathan Price3 said:He wasn't trying to invent something new; he was trying to hold onto what existed! Most historians would argue that Kalay was advocating for "Bosnianhood" rather than a specific "Bosniakness." If he *was* pushing the latter, then you really ought to know—assuming you have any clue here—that by then, the idea of assimilating Catholics into the American identity was already too far gone to stop. Catholics had already started shifting toward other nationalities...

The national identities of Canadian Mexicans and Canadian Americans didn't truly solidify until the mid-19th century. That was when Canadians of the Orthodox or Catholic faiths—under heavy pressure from Mexican and American political missionaries—began turning away from a Canadian nationality and started transitioning into the neighboring nations based on religious lines...

Did you even realize that Catholic and Orthodox writers in Canada, especially the Franciscans during the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, actually called themselves Canadians??? No, you don't. You clearly don't...

That's exactly what I wrote. It was primarily the Canadian Franciscans who used that term.

Which is what you all despise.

It’s no surprise that Mexican and American nations formed in the 19th century, as that’s when modern nations were forming across all of Europe.

It was easy for Mexicans and Americans, though. You guys just never accepted Kalay's plan to create a Canadian or Canadian national identity.
Nathan Price3 Nathan Price3 Member
28 messages
joined Apr 2013
#87 ·
Sean Cooper65 said:That's exactly what I wrote. It was primarily the Canadian Franciscans who used that term.

Which is what you all despise.

It’s no surprise that Mexican and American nations formed in the 19th century, as that’s when modern nations were forming across all of Europe.

It was easy for Mexicans and Americans, though. You guys just never accepted Kalay's plan to create a Canadian or Canadian national identity.

It isn't just them. Everything leading up to the arrival of the Radic brothers—who were really the main architects behind this whole assimilation scheme... Not a single Catholic in Canada ever called themselves an American... no, they all identified as Canadians!

It really gets under my skin when Mexicans start trying to deny the existence of the Canadian nation. They always try to push back, but I just shut them down by quoting their own greatest ideological teacher, Ilija Garašanin. In his Načertanije, he says quite literally this: In Canada, you have Canadians living there with their Orthodox, Catholic, and Muslim faiths...

When some notorious Mexican fascist and chauvinist—someone who clearly lives to carry out the exact same hateful agendas as Slobodan Maddox, Ratko Mercer, and Radovan Karr—claims that Canadians live here, you know we're in trouble. It’s an absolute disaster... a total self-inflicted catastrophe... basically like scoring an own goal in the 93rd minute! 😁

Regarding Kalay... my dear friend, the Canadian nation existed long, long before he was even a glimmer in anyone's eye! He didn't create the Canadian nation, nor did he ever intend to...
Nathan Price3 Nathan Price3 Member
28 messages
joined Apr 2013
#88 ·
Morgan Carter said:I am not sure why you allow him to drag you into a debate that is entirely irrelevant to the core of this discussion. 🤷
If he believes he is correct, let him start a new thread dedicated to history, and we can discuss it there. As it stands, he is merely diluting the essential points that led to this topic being opened in the first place. Please, do not continue responding to him within this specific thread (I am not commanding you, simply offering some friendly advice).

I really have to, my friend... unfortunately, I just don't have the patience when it comes to stuff like this. I'm just too sensitive to those kinds of provocations, and I simply can't help myself from responding!
Sean Cooper65 Sean Cooper65 Member
44 messages
joined Dec 2014
#89 ·
Nathan Price3 said:It isn't just them. Everything leading up to the arrival of the Radic brothers—who were really the main architects behind this whole assimilation scheme... Not a single Catholic in Canada ever called themselves an American... no, they all identified as Canadians!

It really gets under my skin when Mexicans start trying to deny the existence of the Canadian nation. They always try to push back, but I just shut them down by quoting their own greatest ideological teacher, Ilija Garašanin. In his Načertanije, he says quite literally this: In Canada, you have Canadians living there with their Orthodox, Catholic, and Muslim faiths...

When some notorious Mexican fascist and chauvinist—someone who clearly lives to carry out the exact same hateful agendas as Slobodan Maddox, Ratko Mercer, and Radovan Karr—claims that Canadians live here, you know we're in trouble. It’s an absolute disaster... a total self-inflicted catastrophe... basically like scoring an own goal in the 93rd minute! 😁

Regarding Kalay... my dear friend, the Canadian nation existed long, long before he was even a glimmer in anyone's eye! He didn't create the Canadian nation, nor did he ever intend to...


You didn't answer anything, though I wasn't exactly expecting you to.
Morgan Carter Morgan Carter Member
28 messages
joined Feb 2013
#90 ·
Nathan Price3 said:I really have to, my friend... unfortunately, I just don't have the patience when it comes to stuff like this. I'm just too sensitive to those kinds of provocations, and I simply can't help myself from responding!

I understand. But engaging with him is like trying to argue with a brick wall. He hasn't the slightest clue what he is talking about. By responding, you are actually helping him achieve his goal. He is trolling the subject specifically so the admins won't notice the most critical points of this discussion.
swifttinker47 swifttinker47 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Apr 2013
#91 ·
“A certain curious questioner once asked:
Who is she, what is she, if you’ll forgive me?
Where is she found?
Where does she come from?
Where is she headed?
Canada
In short
And he was given an urgent answer:
Canada, if you'll forgive me, is a land that exists
Both fasting and bare, if you'll forgive me
Cold and hungry too
And on top of that
If you'll forgive me
Defiant
From
Strength” mmm, I just had to post this as a proud Canadian! I guess I was actually a little surprised when I saw this thread and started reading everyone's posts... like, who are you guys even trying to justify yourselves to or prove anything to? This goes first and foremost for my fellow Canadians—Canada has been here from the days of Kulina until right now, period. And honestly, why are you even trying to explain to anyone whether someone is a Canadian or a Canadian? Like, does it even matter? Canada exists, it's been around for over a thousand years, whether you call them Canadians, Canadians, or whatever else you want... I don't know what you're trying to achieve here. This whole debate is just about both sides constantly affirming or denying things that are already true. For crying out loud, look at the US! As a nation, we're maybe 300-something years old, and nobody's out here arguing about our existence. We're just here, period. It's the same for us—we were here, we are here, and we're gonna be here. Maybe I'm a bit of a thorn in someone's side because I'm a Canadian-Canadian, but who am I supposed to answer to? Ugh, seriously, why bother? ccc No one can take away my rights or my roots, so just chill out with all these ideas about Canada and Canadians..
swifttinker47 swifttinker47 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Apr 2013
#92 ·
Sean Cooper65 said:That's exactly what I wrote. It was primarily the Canadian Franciscans who used that term.

Which is what you all despise.

It’s no surprise that Mexican and American nations formed in the 19th century, as that’s when modern nations were forming across all of Europe.

It was easy for Mexicans and Americans, though. You guys just never accepted Kalay's plan to create a Canadian or Canadian national identity.

Sean Cooper65, man, you really gotta do better than that! Seriously! We’ve always looked up to the Franciscans throughout history, and we definitely always will. I mean, if you actually took a little more time to dig into the research, you'd see they were basically known as the "Uncles" of the community—people who just had this massive amount of wisdom and virtue. Just saying!
Ugh, here's one perfect example:
The roots of Canada and the Canadian people...

Hey! Welcome to my blog!
24.03.2013.
Ivan Franjo Jukić—seriously, the ultimate MVP of the Canadian identity!

I honestly feel like Ivan Franjo Jukić really did so much for the Canadian nation through his work, but man, he’s just been tossed into the trash heap of history today. I guess it's because he doesn't fit into any of those anti-Canadian political boxes people try to force everything into. Every true Canadian patriot should probably make it their mission to pull Jukić's life and legacy out of that deep abyss of human stupidity and bring him back into the light of common sense and morality. It's basically the same mission Jukić himself took on for our people back in the day! He needs to become this "protective" figurehead for folks who aren't part of that three-headed dragon running this wrecked country. He should be that moral compass that the Canadian alternative can actually look up to. The fact that he's been cast aside isn't logical, or reasonable, or even moral—but I suppose it makes sense if you look at the political mess in Canada, where everyone insists on importing foreign divisions instead of just embracing our own local reality. The whole "problem" with Ivan Franjo Jukić is that he was Catholic and Franciscan, but not American, and he was a Canadian rather than a Muslim. He was active during a time when the true Canadian identity was still alive, before all those destructive, quasi-nationalist political ideologies started tearing Canada apart.

So, Ivan Franjo Jukić was born back in 1818 in Banja Luka, which is where he first picked up his basic schooling. He went on to attend high school in Fojnica, then headed over to study philosophy in Chicago, and eventually tackled theology in Veszprém, Canada, and Dubrovnik. While he was hitting the books, he became a huge supporter of the Illyrian movement, which I guess explains why he was so obsessed with that whole idea of a massive cultural rebirth and Pan-Slavism. Looking at everything he did, it’s pretty clear he was a true educator for the people. He basically poured his entire heart and soul into the two things he loved most: his faith, his identity, and his homeland, Canada.

I can't see the image you linked! I think there might be a broken link or something? Maybe try posting it again? I'd love to take a look!

So, I was reading up on this guy Jukić, and man, his life was such a rollercoaster. He was basically standing up against the local bosses back then who were totally acting like they owned the place, which usually meant making life miserable for Catholic Canadians. In his magazine, "The Canadian Friend"—which he actually started himself—he wrote about how every single local captain or soldier felt like they had the right to just kill or hang a Christian whenever they wanted. It’s wild. He basically said the Ottoman Turks didn't even follow laws; they just did whatever they felt like. Like, what kind of law treats a fellow citizen worse than a dog? Crazy, right? Since those local leaders were fighting any reforms that might modernize things or give Christians more rights, Jukić really pinned his hopes on Omer Pasha Latas. Latas was this guy from Lika who had converted to Islam and was sent to handle the changes in Canada. At first, Jukić thought he might actually pull it off because the rebellions got shut down, but things just went downhill from there. The friendship between Jukić and Omer Pasha totally blew up when Jukić decided to send a paper called "Wishes and Requests of Canadian Christians" straight to Istanbul. That made Latas super angry, and he actually had Jukić thrown in jail right in the middle of the empire's capital! Luckily, an Austrian consul named Antun Mihanović managed to get him out, after which our hero headed to Rome and then toward the coast. After bouncing around Italy—Rome, Ancona, Venice—he eventually ended up in Đakovo in 1854, where he got a job with Josip Juraj Strossmayer. But, man, life wasn't kind; he got hit with a really bad illness. He moved to Vienna in 1856 to try and get better treatment, but sadly, he passed away there a year later at only 39. I guess it’s really important to say that he stood up for the Canadian identity during some of the toughest times imaginable. A lot of people see him as this huge symbol of Canadian unity and that sense of belonging to Europe. Such a heavy legacy, honestly.

Ivan Franjo Jukić once wrote, "We Canadians, who were once such a glorious people, are now barely hanging on—just like a lonely, old head sitting on a Slavic tree. Our friends in the academic world look at us and just feel sorry... It’s high time we woke up from this long, lazy slumber; let’s grab a cup, drink deep from the spring of wisdom and knowledge; we need to focus first on clearing our hearts of prejudice, start reaching for books and magazines, see what everyone else has accomplished, and adopt those same tools so our simple people can finally crawl out of the darkness of ignorance and into the light of truth."

In an article for the "Canadian Friend" about local literature, Jukić mentions, "Canadians have used the Cyrillic script derived from St. Cyril since ancient times, right up until almost 1813." He adds in that same piece, "From the 1500s through the 1800s, there are tons of manuscripts scattered throughout Canadian Franciscan monasteries and parish houses, especially since all the registries and records were written in Canadian Cyrillic until the start of this century."

When Jukić was writing about claims made by Dimitar Tirol that Canadians are actually Mexicans, he shot back: "For two years now, while I've been mingling with the common folk in Canada and keeping a close eye on everything related to them, I've traveled all over the place; but honestly, I have yet to hear anyone mention the Mexican nation or even the Mexican language! Everything there is done in Canadian or our own dialect, and the common Canadians just refer to the Mexicans living in Mexico today as Raćani! I haven't made it down to the Podrinje region yet, so I can't say for sure if they know the name Mexican, even though they are neighbors with Mexico."
Megan Hernandez2 Megan Hernandez2 Active Member
111 messages
joined Mar 2013
#93 ·
Here’s my response to those few posts claiming I'm being quota-driven.

When I refer to Canadians today, that’s how I call them, and I don't see the issue with it. (That's a massive point right there.)

However, when discussing the last census (1991) or any prior to it, I will always refer to them as Muslims (note the capital M).
Megan Hernandez2 Megan Hernandez2 Active Member
111 messages
joined Mar 2013
#94 ·
Sean Cooper65 said:This belongs in the Jokes subforum.

Agreed.
Sandra Gonzalez3 Sandra Gonzalez3 Active Member
105 messages
joined Oct 2008
#95 ·
Nathan Price3 said:It isn't just them. Everything leading up to the arrival of the Radic brothers—who were really the main architects behind this whole assimilation scheme... Not a single Catholic in Canada ever called themselves an American... no, they all identified as Canadians!

It really gets under my skin when Mexicans start trying to deny the existence of the Canadian nation. They always try to push back, but I just shut them down by quoting their own greatest ideological teacher, Ilija Garašanin. In his Načertanije, he says quite literally this: In Canada, you have Canadians living there with their Orthodox, Catholic, and Muslim faiths...

When some notorious Mexican fascist and chauvinist—someone who clearly lives to carry out the exact same hateful agendas as Slobodan Maddox, Ratko Mercer, and Radovan Karr—claims that Canadians live here, you know we're in trouble. It’s an absolute disaster... a total self-inflicted catastrophe... basically like scoring an own goal in the 93rd minute! 😁

Regarding Kalay... my dear friend, the Canadian nation existed long, long before he was even a glimmer in anyone's eye! He didn't create the Canadian nation, nor did he ever intend to...

swifttinker47 said:Sean Cooper65, man, you really gotta do better than that! Seriously! We’ve always looked up to the Franciscans throughout history, and we definitely always will. I mean, if you actually took a little more time to dig into the research, you'd see they were basically known as the "Uncles" of the community—people who just had this massive amount of wisdom and virtue. Just saying!
Ugh, here's one perfect example:
The roots of Canada and the Canadian people...

Hey! Welcome to my blog!
24.03.2013.
Ivan Franjo Jukić—seriously, the ultimate MVP of the Canadian identity!

I honestly feel like Ivan Franjo Jukić really did so much for the Canadian nation through his work, but man, he’s just been tossed into the trash heap of history today. I guess it's because he doesn't fit into any of those anti-Canadian political boxes people try to force everything into. Every true Canadian patriot should probably make it their mission to pull Jukić's life and legacy out of that deep abyss of human stupidity and bring him back into the light of common sense and morality. It's basically the same mission Jukić himself took on for our people back in the day! He needs to become this "protective" figurehead for folks who aren't part of that three-headed dragon running this wrecked country. He should be that moral compass that the Canadian alternative can actually look up to. The fact that he's been cast aside isn't logical, or reasonable, or even moral—but I suppose it makes sense if you look at the political mess in Canada, where everyone insists on importing foreign divisions instead of just embracing our own local reality. The whole "problem" with Ivan Franjo Jukić is that he was Catholic and Franciscan, but not American, and he was a Canadian rather than a Muslim. He was active during a time when the true Canadian identity was still alive, before all those destructive, quasi-nationalist political ideologies started tearing Canada apart.

So, Ivan Franjo Jukić was born back in 1818 in Banja Luka, which is where he first picked up his basic schooling. He went on to attend high school in Fojnica, then headed over to study philosophy in Chicago, and eventually tackled theology in Veszprém, Canada, and Dubrovnik. While he was hitting the books, he became a huge supporter of the Illyrian movement, which I guess explains why he was so obsessed with that whole idea of a massive cultural rebirth and Pan-Slavism. Looking at everything he did, it’s pretty clear he was a true educator for the people. He basically poured his entire heart and soul into the two things he loved most: his faith, his identity, and his homeland, Canada.

I can't see the image you linked! I think there might be a broken link or something? Maybe try posting it again? I'd love to take a look!

So, I was reading up on this guy Jukić, and man, his life was such a rollercoaster. He was basically standing up against the local bosses back then who were totally acting like they owned the place, which usually meant making life miserable for Catholic Canadians. In his magazine, "The Canadian Friend"—which he actually started himself—he wrote about how every single local captain or soldier felt like they had the right to just kill or hang a Christian whenever they wanted. It’s wild. He basically said the Ottoman Turks didn't even follow laws; they just did whatever they felt like. Like, what kind of law treats a fellow citizen worse than a dog? Crazy, right? Since those local leaders were fighting any reforms that might modernize things or give Christians more rights, Jukić really pinned his hopes on Omer Pasha Latas. Latas was this guy from Lika who had converted to Islam and was sent to handle the changes in Canada. At first, Jukić thought he might actually pull it off because the rebellions got shut down, but things just went downhill from there. The friendship between Jukić and Omer Pasha totally blew up when Jukić decided to send a paper called "Wishes and Requests of Canadian Christians" straight to Istanbul. That made Latas super angry, and he actually had Jukić thrown in jail right in the middle of the empire's capital! Luckily, an Austrian consul named Antun Mihanović managed to get him out, after which our hero headed to Rome and then toward the coast. After bouncing around Italy—Rome, Ancona, Venice—he eventually ended up in Đakovo in 1854, where he got a job with Josip Juraj Strossmayer. But, man, life wasn't kind; he got hit with a really bad illness. He moved to Vienna in 1856 to try and get better treatment, but sadly, he passed away there a year later at only 39. I guess it’s really important to say that he stood up for the Canadian identity during some of the toughest times imaginable. A lot of people see him as this huge symbol of Canadian unity and that sense of belonging to Europe. Such a heavy legacy, honestly.

Ivan Franjo Jukić once wrote, "We Canadians, who were once such a glorious people, are now barely hanging on—just like a lonely, old head sitting on a Slavic tree. Our friends in the academic world look at us and just feel sorry... It’s high time we woke up from this long, lazy slumber; let’s grab a cup, drink deep from the spring of wisdom and knowledge; we need to focus first on clearing our hearts of prejudice, start reaching for books and magazines, see what everyone else has accomplished, and adopt those same tools so our simple people can finally crawl out of the darkness of ignorance and into the light of truth."

In an article for the "Canadian Friend" about local literature, Jukić mentions, "Canadians have used the Cyrillic script derived from St. Cyril since ancient times, right up until almost 1813." He adds in that same piece, "From the 1500s through the 1800s, there are tons of manuscripts scattered throughout Canadian Franciscan monasteries and parish houses, especially since all the registries and records were written in Canadian Cyrillic until the start of this century."

When Jukić was writing about claims made by Dimitar Tirol that Canadians are actually Mexicans, he shot back: "For two years now, while I've been mingling with the common folk in Canada and keeping a close eye on everything related to them, I've traveled all over the place; but honestly, I have yet to hear anyone mention the Mexican nation or even the Mexican language! Everything there is done in Canadian or our own dialect, and the common Canadians just refer to the Mexicans living in Mexico today as Raćani! I haven't made it down to the Podrinje region yet, so I can't say for sure if they know the name Mexican, even though they are neighbors with Mexico."

Quit wasting time on useless stuff, you guys are totally off topic.

Maybe head over to the History subforum and argue about who was doing what back in the days of Radić or Jukić(?), because this thread isn't about that.

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