2013 United States Grand Prix (Las Vegas) - April 21st

stormybadger8 said:See what I told you?

At the end of the day, overtaking right at the start isn't really connected to how people pass each other later in the race. It's a totally different beast...
What actually matters here is track position—whether you're on the clean side or the dirty side—and the quality of the car's launch procedure. After that, it's down to the driver and their control...

Besides, it wasn't exactly a shock that Ferrari would overtake Red Bull Racing if they had the clean side and Red Bull was stuck on the dirty side...
Honestly, it would’ve surprised me more if they hadn't passed them at the start. And frankly, I'm just glad Felipe Massa didn't lose his cool about it.🙂
Because let's be real, Ferrari is damn good off the line. Over the last few seasons, they've been better than the competition at starts roughly as much as Red Bull was better in a single qualifying lap back in 2011...
I can't even remember a single race where both Ferraris didn't gain at least one spot on the start...

You forgot to put a "☕" at the end of your sentence.

Fernando Alonso overtook him on track. 1-0.
Sebastian Vettel took it back later. 1-1.
End of story.

stormybadger8 said:See what I told you?

At the end of the day, overtaking right at the start isn't really connected to how people pass each other later in the race. It's a totally different beast...
What actually matters here is track position—whether you're on the clean side or the dirty side—and the quality of the car's launch procedure. After that, it's down to the driver and their control...

Besides, it wasn't exactly a shock that Ferrari would overtake Red Bull Racing if they had the clean side and Red Bull was stuck on the dirty side...
Honestly, it would’ve surprised me more if they hadn't passed them at the start. And frankly, I'm just glad Felipe Massa didn't lose his cool about it.🙂
Because let's be real, Ferrari is damn good off the line. Over the last few seasons, they've been better than the competition at starts roughly as much as Red Bull was better in a single qualifying lap back in 2011...
I can't even remember a single race where both Ferraris didn't gain at least one spot on the start...

Hmm, Bahrain '13? 😁

stormybadger8 said:See what I told you?

At the end of the day, overtaking right at the start isn't really connected to how people pass each other later in the race. It's a totally different beast...
What actually matters here is track position—whether you're on the clean side or the dirty side—and the quality of the car's launch procedure. After that, it's down to the driver and their control...

Besides, it wasn't exactly a shock that Ferrari would overtake Red Bull Racing if they had the clean side and Red Bull was stuck on the dirty side...
Honestly, it would’ve surprised me more if they hadn't passed them at the start. And frankly, I'm just glad Felipe Massa didn't lose his cool about it.🙂
Because let's be real, Ferrari is damn good off the line. Over the last few seasons, they've been better than the competition at starts roughly as much as Red Bull was better in a single qualifying lap back in 2011...
I can't even remember a single race where both Ferraris didn't gain at least one spot on the start...

If it hadn't been for that nasty squeeze and being forced wide, Fernando Alonso would have taken the lead into Turn 1 in Bahrain.

stormybadger8 said:Man, there are so many "what ifs" here...
What if Romain Grosjean hadn't punctured his tire and been forced into an early pit stop, followed by two stints on mediums that just don't suit Lotus nearly as well as the hards?
What if someone had actually pushed Vettel, forcing him to really hammer the throttle? Would his tires have given out then, or not?
And what about Alonso? Would his tires have exploded like Felipe Massa's if he’d been fighting his crew at the front and driving faster with functional DRS?

Who knows...
All we know for sure is that Vettel won. He overtook Alonso before that technical glitch, pulled away well outside the DRS zone, and was clocking faster times than Alonso during the period when his DRS was working.

Honestly, before the race even started, it didn't seem like much of a question whether it would be Vettel and someone from Lotus on the podium (maybe both, or one plus Mark Webber)...
I didn't see Ferrari in the mix at all—and I'm not even being a fanboy here—but Red Bull Racing and Lotus were just exceptionally strong in Bahrain.😉
Besides, back in Malaysia, it was already obvious that Vettel (more so the guy than the Red Bull Racing car itself) absolutely loves the Medium and Hard tires. 😉
In Malaysia, he was one of those drivers who pulled off the longest stint on Mediums while maintaining blistering pace... and he did the exact same thing on the hards.😉

From where I'm sitting, the main issue for Red Bull Racing and Vettel this season is the soft compound... and those super softs are an absolute disaster for Red Bull Racing.😬
It'd be cool if there was a site listing upcoming races and their designated tire compounds... you could probably figure out who's going to be in peak form for any given race based on that.😁

Given Ferrari's technical headaches, we're basically just playing "what if" here. We can throw out our theories, but there’s no way to be certain about anything.

In China, Ferrari worked beautifully on the hard tires, which is what most of the race was run on.
So, Fernando Alonso is a lock for the podium—minimum P2, maybe even P1.
Felipe Massa is a tougher call. He had more trouble than Fernando. Sure, he had a solid start, but I wouldn't bet on him finishing much higher than P4 or P5.
That’s my take on how Ferrari would have fared if they hadn't dealt with those technical issues in Bahrain.

How good someone is in Bahrain (or anywhere else) only tells you so much. The 2012 Ferrari and this version are different beasts in some ways, so that logic doesn't really hold up for me. Tire handling, which is everything with these Pirelli tires, is night and day compared to 2012. I'm talking specifically about Ferrari, of course.
So, yeah... we can toss around ideas and theories all we want. You might be right, but you won't find a rational way to debunk what I've said.
Pat.

steelmaker83 said:Tell that to yourself, then you won't get penalized. And if I'm an idiot just because I'm stating facts—fine, so be it.

The fact that you can't hold a discussion without resorting to insults says everything about you. And having an "idol"—lol, an idol—says even more.

Since you clearly need someone to worship, you could have at least picked a relevant character...
ron dennis 🤣

What's the actual truth here? It's that Nico Hulkenberg hasn't won a title in nearly a decade—and despite his stints with top-tier teams since then, nothing has come his way. That seems to be the only reality worth discussing, right?

The fact that you can't hold a conversation without getting defensive says everything about you—and having an "idol," lol, an actual idol—well, that speaks for itself.

Who's insulting you? Honestly, this constant glorification of Fernando Alonso is almost as exhausting as listening to Jason Campbell70... it’s like I should hand you an award for being the loudest Nico Hulkenberg fan out there. You should be proud of that, not offended.

As for how to debate... I don't really care... how am I supposed to have a rational discussion in a thread that's 110% fueled by pure fandom?

If you're so desperate for an idol, you could have at least picked someone relevant...
Ron Dennis🤣

Ron is a legend.🙂

redheron12 said:What's the actual truth here? It's that Nico Hulkenberg hasn't won a title in nearly a decade—and despite his stints with top-tier teams since then, nothing has come his way. That seems to be the only reality worth discussing, right?

The fact that you can't hold a conversation without getting defensive says everything about you—and having an "idol," lol, an actual idol—well, that speaks for itself.

Who's insulting you? Honestly, this constant glorification of Fernando Alonso is almost as exhausting as listening to Jason Campbell70... it’s like I should hand you an award for being the loudest Nico Hulkenberg fan out there. You should be proud of that, not offended.

As for how to debate... I don't really care... how am I supposed to have a rational discussion in a thread that's 110% fueled by pure fandom?

If you're so desperate for an idol, you could have at least picked someone relevant...
Ron Dennis🤣

Ron is a legend.🙂

Let me stop you right there—Ron is a total egoist.
Ross Brawn is the real deal.

Amanda Kelly said:If it hadn't been for that nasty squeeze and being forced wide, Fernando Alonso would have taken the lead into Turn 1 in Bahrain.

Whose pushing? What are you even talking about?😕
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZHtQdKkBw

Where on earth do you see anyone pushing or squeezing Fernando Alonso before that first turn?
Seriously, are we watching the same race or what?🤷

redheron12 said:What's the actual truth here? It's that Nico Hulkenberg hasn't won a title in nearly a decade—and despite his stints with top-tier teams since then, nothing has come his way. That seems to be the only reality worth discussing, right?

The fact that you can't hold a conversation without getting defensive says everything about you—and having an "idol," lol, an actual idol—well, that speaks for itself.

Who's insulting you? Honestly, this constant glorification of Fernando Alonso is almost as exhausting as listening to Jason Campbell70... it’s like I should hand you an award for being the loudest Nico Hulkenberg fan out there. You should be proud of that, not offended.

As for how to debate... I don't really care... how am I supposed to have a rational discussion in a thread that's 110% fueled by pure fandom?

If you're so desperate for an idol, you could have at least picked someone relevant...
Ron Dennis🤣

Ron is a legend.🙂

Lol, just your typical McLaren/Lewis Hamilton fan comment. It’s honestly tragicomic considering Lewis had a car that was just as good, if not better, during that same stretch—he wasn't even a title contender through the first half of the season, yet somehow remains the fastest guy on the grid.

redheron12 said:What's the actual truth here? It's that Nico Hulkenberg hasn't won a title in nearly a decade—and despite his stints with top-tier teams since then, nothing has come his way. That seems to be the only reality worth discussing, right?

The fact that you can't hold a conversation without getting defensive says everything about you—and having an "idol," lol, an actual idol—well, that speaks for itself.

Who's insulting you? Honestly, this constant glorification of Fernando Alonso is almost as exhausting as listening to Jason Campbell70... it’s like I should hand you an award for being the loudest Nico Hulkenberg fan out there. You should be proud of that, not offended.

As for how to debate... I don't really care... how am I supposed to have a rational discussion in a thread that's 110% fueled by pure fandom?

If you're so desperate for an idol, you could have at least picked someone relevant...
Ron Dennis🤣

Ron is a legend.🙂

I have never called anyone on this forum an idiot, regardless of how close some people get to meeting that definition. Subtle banter is fine; that bit about the medal was actually decent.

redheron12 said:What's the actual truth here? It's that Nico Hulkenberg hasn't won a title in nearly a decade—and despite his stints with top-tier teams since then, nothing has come his way. That seems to be the only reality worth discussing, right?

The fact that you can't hold a conversation without getting defensive says everything about you—and having an "idol," lol, an actual idol—well, that speaks for itself.

Who's insulting you? Honestly, this constant glorification of Fernando Alonso is almost as exhausting as listening to Jason Campbell70... it’s like I should hand you an award for being the loudest Nico Hulkenberg fan out there. You should be proud of that, not offended.

As for how to debate... I don't really care... how am I supposed to have a rational discussion in a thread that's 110% fueled by pure fandom?

If you're so desperate for an idol, you could have at least picked someone relevant...
Ron Dennis🤣

Ron is a legend.🙂

And that pretty much sums it up.

stormybadger8 said:Whose pushing? What are you even talking about?😕
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZHtQdKkBw

Where on earth do you see anyone pushing or squeezing Fernando Alonso before that first turn?
Seriously, are we watching the same race or what?🤷

Are you blind?

Nathan Jones98 said:Are you blind?

So who’s actually shoving or blocking Fernando Alonso before the first turn???
The only one out there aggressively pushing or closing doors is Nico Rosberg against Sebastian Vettel, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Fernando Alonso.🤷

stormybadger8 said:So who’s actually shoving or blocking Fernando Alonso before the first turn???
The only one out there aggressively pushing or closing doors is Nico Rosberg against Sebastian Vettel, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Fernando Alonso.🤷

Pretty interesting stuff—really catches the eye.
As soon as Alonso gets going, he shuts Vettel down instantly.
Take another look—you won't see it until you really look.
Give it a shot in slow motion.

Amanda Kelly said:Hold on, I actually agree—it was totally possible. Vettel looked incredible, just super aggressive in that beast of a car.
But you can't make a definitive diagnosis based on just the first couple of laps, so that part of the statement doesn't really hold water for me.
Vettel was clearly in top-tier form, while Alonso wasn't even in the frame.
So, I wouldn't bet $3.25 that Alonso wouldn't end up taking it anyway.

If that were truly the case, then why is it that after those initial two pit stops, he wasn't out there carving through the air and setting laps faster than Sebastian Vettel? After all, when driving in clean air, one isn't even permitted to utilize DRS anyway, is one?

stormybadger8 said:Whose pushing? What are you even talking about?😕
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZHtQdKkBw

Where on earth do you see anyone pushing or squeezing Fernando Alonso before that first turn?
Seriously, are we watching the same race or what?🤷

And away we go. Sebastian Vettel nails the start, and then Nico Rosberg moves over to cover him.He's right on the edge of it, looking for an opening. Just as he’s about to dive in, Fernando Alonso swings wide to pull an outside pass on Sebastian Vettel...

That covers the dirty details—the starting procedures and how incredibly strong that Ferrari looked right off the line.

Nathan Jones98 said:Pretty interesting stuff—really catches the eye.
As soon as Alonso gets going, he shuts Vettel down instantly.
Take another look—you won't see it until you really look.
Give it a shot in slow motion.

Give it a rest with those fanboy goggles already.🤦
Look at where Fernando Alonso actually is compared to Sebastian Vettel and then try telling me how someone who's several feet behind you can "squeeze" you.🙄

Nico Rosberg is the one closing the gap on Sebastian Vettel, who initially pulled to the right and then swerved left once he realized there was no room...
here's a clip from a different angle...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW9d2Ot3uFw&t=0m20s

Unfortunately, we don't have the full start from an aerial view, but you can clearly see Fernando Alonso is nowhere near them...

if you can't see here that Rosberg is blocking Sebastian Vettel, rather than Sebastian Vettel being blocked by Fernando Alonso...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZHtQdKkBw
then I'm done. No amount of high-end eyewear is going to help you, let alone me trying to explain it.🤣

stormybadger8 said:So who’s actually shoving or blocking Fernando Alonso before the first turn???
The only one out there aggressively pushing or closing doors is Nico Rosberg against Sebastian Vettel, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Fernando Alonso.🤷

Of course there is. Though, I didn't even bring up Fernando Alonso. Or Sebastian Vettel. You did.

So, Sebastian Vettel goes for his left side right at the start. Is that actually true?
At that exact moment, with both of them ahead and moving faster, Fernando Alonso dives toward his right side just as the gap starts to open up. That’s how it happened, right?

Then comes the shove. Rosberg pushes a faster Sebastian Vettel just to lock in a better line for turn one. Vettel swerves toward his right, completely abandoning his original trajectory. He cuts hard to the right, getting forced wide by Rosberg. By veering so sharply, they end up squeezing Fernando Alonso, who actually had the perfect line to pass them both.

stormybadger8 said:Give it a rest with those fanboy goggles already.🤦
Look at where Fernando Alonso actually is compared to Sebastian Vettel and then try telling me how someone who's several feet behind you can "squeeze" you.🙄

Nico Rosberg is the one closing the gap on Sebastian Vettel, who initially pulled to the right and then swerved left once he realized there was no room...
here's a clip from a different angle...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW9d2Ot3uFw&t=0m20s

Unfortunately, we don't have the full start from an aerial view, but you can clearly see Fernando Alonso is nowhere near them...

if you can't see here that Rosberg is blocking Sebastian Vettel, rather than Sebastian Vettel being blocked by Fernando Alonso...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZHtQdKkBw
then I'm done. No amount of high-end eyewear is going to help you, let alone me trying to explain it.🤣

You're the only one here being biased
I'm telling you again—just go watch it back

Nathan Jones98 said:You're the only one here being biased
I'm telling you again—just go watch it back

Noup, dear Nacko, someone else is being biased here...
Because if anyone is playing favorites, it's clearly Rosberg and Vettel.☕

Everything happening behind the scenes is just the fallout, but you can't seriously claim Rosberg or Vettel were actively shoving or blocking Alonso...
Sure, their switching sides definitely impacted him... but by that logic, Alonso was the one pushing and blocking Massu and then Rest... and so on and so forth all the way down to Gutierrez.😁

Amanda Kelly said:Of course there is. Though, I didn't even bring up Fernando Alonso. Or Sebastian Vettel. You did.

So, Sebastian Vettel goes for his left side right at the start. Is that actually true?
At that exact moment, with both of them ahead and moving faster, Fernando Alonso dives toward his right side just as the gap starts to open up. That’s how it happened, right?

Then comes the shove. Rosberg pushes a faster Sebastian Vettel just to lock in a better line for turn one. Vettel swerves toward his right, completely abandoning his original trajectory. He cuts hard to the right, getting forced wide by Rosberg. By veering so sharply, they end up squeezing Fernando Alonso, who actually had the perfect line to pass them both.

Oh, really?

Amanda Kelly said:If it hadn't been for that nasty squeeze and being forced wide, Fernando Alonso would have taken the lead into Turn 1 in Bahrain.

😁

If Rosberg hadn't been shoving and closing the door on Vettel, Vettel probably would've been the one leading into turn one... actually, that's exactly why he lost ground to Alonso.

Alonso might have overtaken him after that first turn, but there's no way he pulls it off before him.🤷

stormybadger8 said:Give it a rest with those fanboy goggles already.🤦
Look at where Fernando Alonso actually is compared to Sebastian Vettel and then try telling me how someone who's several feet behind you can "squeeze" you.🙄

Nico Rosberg is the one closing the gap on Sebastian Vettel, who initially pulled to the right and then swerved left once he realized there was no room...
here's a clip from a different angle...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW9d2Ot3uFw&t=0m20s

Unfortunately, we don't have the full start from an aerial view, but you can clearly see Fernando Alonso is nowhere near them...

if you can't see here that Rosberg is blocking Sebastian Vettel, rather than Sebastian Vettel being blocked by Fernando Alonso...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZHtQdKkBw
then I'm done. No amount of high-end eyewear is going to help you, let alone me trying to explain it.🤣

But how? Wasn't the start actually great from a clean position, especially in that incredibly fast Ferrari at the beginning? 😍

At least, that's how it looked this morning. 😍

Jason Campbell70 said:But how? Wasn't the start actually great from a clean position, especially in that incredibly fast Ferrari at the beginning? 😍

At least, that's how it looked this morning. 😍

He’s got a beast of a car this season, but he's just a specialist for bottom-feeders... the poor guy looks completely lost in a machine this good.🙂

stormybadger8 said:I'm talking about overtaking from the back, and as far as I know, he didn't actually overtake Sebastian Vettel☕
He just jumped him at the start because that Ferrari was lightning fast off the line, but after that, he completely blew it and lost the spot anyway.😁

Fast forward 12 hours and the story changes:

stormybadger8 said:Give it a rest with those fanboy goggles already.🤦
Look at where Fernando Alonso actually is compared to Sebastian Vettel and then try telling me how someone who's several feet behind you can "squeeze" you.🙄

Nico Rosberg is the one closing the gap on Sebastian Vettel, who initially pulled to the right and then swerved left once he realized there was no room...
here's a clip from a different angle...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW9d2Ot3uFw&t=0m20s

Unfortunately, we don't have the full start from an aerial view, but you can clearly see Fernando Alonso is nowhere near them...

if you can't see here that Rosberg is blocking Sebastian Vettel, rather than Sebastian Vettel being blocked by Fernando Alonso...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZHtQdKkBw
then I'm done. No amount of high-end eyewear is going to help you, let alone me trying to explain it.🤣

Fan bias at its finest. 😍

stormybadger8 said:He’s got a fantastic car this season; he’s clearly a specialist when things go sideways.

We saw exactly what happened during those two races where Alonso wasn't sidelined by mechanical failures. 😍

PS - ran out of coffee? 😂