2013 United States Grand Prix (Las Vegas) - April 21st

redheron12 said:I am not trolling about Alonso....Trolling is intentionally being obtuse just to derail a discussion, which isn't my goal at all. It's simply that I cannot wrap my head around a person who has disgraced every single team he's ever driven for through dishonest acts, cheating, lies, rigging, blackmail, and betrayal.......given how much that individual repulses me, I find myself being quite discrete and measured when discussing him—certainly more composed than those who, if they could, would be staring at his backside 👍

By the way... there is no identity crisis at McLaren; we might discuss a crisis in results, but certainly not an identity crisis. And if you knew anything about the McLaren mentality—or their fans—you wouldn't dream of calling a driver a "prince." Everyone knows who the true prince is in the United Kingdom 😁

😲

So, you're disgusted by a guy because he dared to shake up the establishment? No. Cheating, betrayals, blackmail, and lying are completely foreign to McLaren—a team that was actually caught red-handed, and not just with a finger in the cookie jar, but waist-deep in it.

But sure, you're all about moral integrity. I get it. You probably spend your free time rescuing whales.

If all of this turns your stomach, you have fundamentally misunderstood the sport you chose to watch. To break your childhood illusion: yes, people cheat, lie, steal, deceive, and stab each other in the back—with knives, or rather sabers—on a daily basis. It is a core component of the circus.

And yet, you find it repulsive when a driver uses those exact same methods to rattle the big fish.

You have seriously missed the point of this sport.

Look, even a "good kid" like Vettel is a little brat. That's just how it is. There is no mercy for the naive.

Jason Campbell70 said:I can say with certainty that I support "your way."
I won't get involved in who your "target" is; that choice is yours alone.

But I cannot agree with this last part.
To be honest, I couldn't care less about the portion of Alonso's career before his time at Ferrari... but in what way, and through what specific actions, did Fernando Alonso shame teams with "dishonest actions, cheating, lies, rigging, blackmail, and betrayal"?

Give me a break.😁
He wasn't exactly a superstar in his old teams until things got desperate or he started threatening to walk out because he didn't get his way...

Right now, he's the center of the universe at Ferrari. There’s zero chance he's going there to pull any nonsense—honestly, why would he even bother? He isn't that stupid.🤷

stormybadger8 said:Give me a break.😁
He wasn't exactly a superstar in his old teams until things got desperate or he started threatening to walk out because he didn't get his way...

Right now, he's the center of the universe at Ferrari. There’s zero chance he's going there to pull any nonsense—honestly, why would he even bother? He isn't that stupid.🤷

Exactly.

Considering the mistakes Ferrari makes that cost him wins and championships—and the absolute junk they give him to drive—he’s being incredibly patient.
Not a single sign of frustration, anger, or dissatisfaction with the crew... nothing. Not even a hint of negativity.

Jason Campbell70 said:Exactly.

Considering the mistakes Ferrari makes that cost him wins and championships—and the absolute junk they give him to drive—he’s being incredibly patient.
Not a single sign of frustration, anger, or dissatisfaction with the crew... nothing. Not even a hint of negativity.

If we’re being principled—which we should be—Alonso was quietly sulking by the end of last season. He wasn't being destructive, but he was brooding enough for someone like the Marquis to take a swing at him.

[just a side note] it would be a massive improvement if someone actually vetted the user profiles of the folks drifting through here before they start throwing around their amateurish little theories and patterns.
maybe some basic decency isn't too much to ask for, right? [/just a side note]


sorry mods, but I just couldn't hold back.🙄☕🤣

It’s starting to feel like some kind of vanity project, just two different philosophies crashing into each other... on one side you've got the Vettel fanatics and on the other it's all about Alonso, and suddenly it's like no other drivers even exist on the grid.
The reality is that Alonso can squeeze a ton of performance out of a subpar car, just like he did last season. And yeah, even if I think Vettel being a three-time champ gives him the edge despite having the better car over the last three years, man... it gets exhausting reading the same old arguments race after race.

Samuel Ruiz4 said:It’s starting to feel like some kind of vanity project, just two different philosophies crashing into each other... on one side you've got the Vettel fanatics and on the other it's all about Alonso, and suddenly it's like no other drivers even exist on the grid.
The reality is that Alonso can squeeze a ton of performance out of a subpar car, just like he did last season. And yeah, even if I think Vettel being a three-time champ gives him the edge despite having the better car over the last three years, man... it gets exhausting reading the same old arguments race after race.

Why is that strange? These two are the only ones fighting for titles over the last three years, so naturally, everyone else is sidelined. It’s a good thing a third driver eventually steps up to shake things up...

Jason Campbell70 As specified by Jerry Rogers6:
Otom-pot.

Considering the sheer number of mistakes Ferrari makes to rob him of wins and championships—not to mention the absolute junk they hand him to drive—it’s honestly a miracle he stays so calm.
There isn't a single shred of evidence. No signs of dissatisfaction with the crew, no anger, no frustration... absolutely nothing. Not even a trace of negativity to be found.

No, Alonso is perfectly calm because he’s the undisputed number one. Nobody on the team can even dream of outperforming him, let alone embarrassing him. Everyone there treats him like a god. To be honest, he couldn't care less about the titles—that would just be the icing on the cake for him.

Samuel Ruiz4 As specified by Jerry Rogers6:
This is turning into some kind of vanity factory. It’s a head-on collision between two opposing philosophies: on one side, you have the Vettel devotees, and on the other, the Alonso fanatics. It’s reaching a point where it feels like every other driver on the grid doesn't even exist.
It’s an objective fact that Alonso can squeeze every bit of potential out of a subpar car, much like he did last season. And yes, let's be clear: in my view, even though Vettel has been a three-time champion over the last three years, he actually had the superior car. But honestly, man, it is absolutely exhausting to sit through the same endless, repetitive arguments race after race.

Look, it’s simple. You have the Alonso fans—the die-hard Ferraria loyalists—and then you have everyone else who just picks a side. Unfortunately, Vettel ends up being the primary target for those first group members. It’s a recurring pattern. We saw the exact same thing back in 2007 and 2008 when Lewis Hamilton was the one in the crosshairs. Back then, he didn't have a massive following yet, but he was constantly the subject of criticism from the Alonso and Ferraria crowd, especially after he spent those seasons consistently beating both Alonso in '07 and the Ferrari 08.

Samuel Ruiz4 said:It’s starting to feel like some kind of vanity project, just two different philosophies crashing into each other... on one side you've got the Vettel fanatics and on the other it's all about Alonso, and suddenly it's like no other drivers even exist on the grid.
The reality is that Alonso can squeeze a ton of performance out of a subpar car, just like he did last season. And yeah, even if I think Vettel being a three-time champ gives him the edge despite having the better car over the last three years, man... it gets exhausting reading the same old arguments race after race.

Get used to it—looks like you're new around here😁

Just pick a side, switch your brain off, ignore certain people, and you'll have a great time😁

Vettel keeps getting brought up because he always seems to end up in the fastest car or just gets incredibly lucky.
I honestly haven't seen an F1 driver with this much luck—and just as much lack of skill—when it comes to actually passing people on the track...
What Alonso pulled off in Bahrain was the real deal—it showed what a true F1 driver can do when they're fighting against a massive handicap.

Samuel Ruiz4 said:It’s starting to feel like some kind of vanity project, just two different philosophies crashing into each other... on one side you've got the Vettel fanatics and on the other it's all about Alonso, and suddenly it's like no other drivers even exist on the grid.
The reality is that Alonso can squeeze a ton of performance out of a subpar car, just like he did last season. And yeah, even if I think Vettel being a three-time champ gives him the edge despite having the better car over the last three years, man... it gets exhausting reading the same old arguments race after race.

Vettel doesn't have many supporters here (I suspect stormybadger8 might be his only true disciple), but as those guys mentioned above, he certainly has a massive group of haters. Since his "Excellency" Alonso has been consistently winning for years, and since Alonso seems invincible, people feel the need to label Vettel some sort of fraud.
And that’s really all there is to it. Eventually, you learn to filter out the noise, and then you simply stop caring.

Deep down, it's obvious to everyone—and even Alonso himself has admitted it—that this season, Kimi Räikkönen is performing better than anyone else on that grid. 🙏 👍

Walter Cox6 said:

Jason Campbell70 As specified by Jerry Rogers6:
Otom-pot.

Considering the sheer number of mistakes Ferrari makes to rob him of wins and championships—not to mention the absolute junk they hand him to drive—it’s honestly a miracle he stays so calm.
There isn't a single shred of evidence. No signs of dissatisfaction with the crew, no anger, no frustration... absolutely nothing. Not even a trace of negativity to be found.

No, Alonso is perfectly calm because he’s the undisputed number one. Nobody on the team can even dream of outperforming him, let alone embarrassing him. Everyone there treats him like a god. To be honest, he couldn't care less about the titles—that would just be the icing on the cake for him.

Samuel Ruiz4 As specified by Jerry Rogers6:
This is turning into some kind of vanity factory. It’s a head-on collision between two opposing philosophies: on one side, you have the Vettel devotees, and on the other, the Alonso fanatics. It’s reaching a point where it feels like every other driver on the grid doesn't even exist.
It’s an objective fact that Alonso can squeeze every bit of potential out of a subpar car, much like he did last season. And yes, let's be clear: in my view, even though Vettel has been a three-time champion over the last three years, he actually had the superior car. But honestly, man, it is absolutely exhausting to sit through the same endless, repetitive arguments race after race.

Look, it’s simple. You have the Alonso fans—the die-hard Ferraria loyalists—and then you have everyone else who just picks a side. Unfortunately, Vettel ends up being the primary target for those first group members. It’s a recurring pattern. We saw the exact same thing back in 2007 and 2008 when Lewis Hamilton was the one in the crosshairs. Back then, he didn't have a massive following yet, but he was constantly the subject of criticism from the Alonso and Ferraria crowd, especially after he spent those seasons consistently beating both Alonso in '07 and the Ferrari 08.

I don't want to speculate too much on Alonso's intentions or what's going through his head... I'll just say I haven't gotten that impression.
Besides, Alonso's own statements contradict what was bolded above.

Walter Cox6 said:

Jason Campbell70 As specified by Jerry Rogers6:
Otom-pot.

Considering the sheer number of mistakes Ferrari makes to rob him of wins and championships—not to mention the absolute junk they hand him to drive—it’s honestly a miracle he stays so calm.
There isn't a single shred of evidence. No signs of dissatisfaction with the crew, no anger, no frustration... absolutely nothing. Not even a trace of negativity to be found.

No, Alonso is perfectly calm because he’s the undisputed number one. Nobody on the team can even dream of outperforming him, let alone embarrassing him. Everyone there treats him like a god. To be honest, he couldn't care less about the titles—that would just be the icing on the cake for him.

Samuel Ruiz4 As specified by Jerry Rogers6:
This is turning into some kind of vanity factory. It’s a head-on collision between two opposing philosophies: on one side, you have the Vettel devotees, and on the other, the Alonso fanatics. It’s reaching a point where it feels like every other driver on the grid doesn't even exist.
It’s an objective fact that Alonso can squeeze every bit of potential out of a subpar car, much like he did last season. And yes, let's be clear: in my view, even though Vettel has been a three-time champion over the last three years, he actually had the superior car. But honestly, man, it is absolutely exhausting to sit through the same endless, repetitive arguments race after race.

Look, it’s simple. You have the Alonso fans—the die-hard Ferraria loyalists—and then you have everyone else who just picks a side. Unfortunately, Vettel ends up being the primary target for those first group members. It’s a recurring pattern. We saw the exact same thing back in 2007 and 2008 when Lewis Hamilton was the one in the crosshairs. Back then, he didn't have a massive following yet, but he was constantly the subject of criticism from the Alonso and Ferraria crowd, especially after he spent those seasons consistently beating both Alonso in '07 and the Ferrari 08.

Sorry, but this makes even less sense than that theory that lumped me in with the people who trash Kimi because of the '07 season.😁

Nathan Jones98 said:Vettel keeps getting brought up because he always seems to end up in the fastest car or just gets incredibly lucky.
I honestly haven't seen an F1 driver with this much luck—and just as much lack of skill—when it comes to actually passing people on the track...
What Alonso pulled off in Bahrain was the real deal—it showed what a true F1 driver can do when they're fighting against a massive handicap.

Alonso managed to pass some slower cars without using DRS, but that isn't exactly rocket science. Most of them were just struggling because this year's Ferrari is simply faster than most of the field... it has incredible top speed and really solid traction.
Once he hit that elite group containing Mark Webber, Lewis Hamilton, Sergio Perez, and Nico Rosberg, he hit a wall. He managed to get past Rosberg, but that was about it.
He couldn't close the gap to Sergio Perez at all; he was stuck a full second behind him the whole time.
Passing Pastor Maldonado without DRS isn't that impressive either, especially when you consider how many people were making overtakes in spots where DRS wasn't even allowed.

Raymond Anderson4 said:Alonso managed to pass some slower cars without using DRS, but that isn't exactly rocket science. Most of them were just struggling because this year's Ferrari is simply faster than most of the field... it has incredible top speed and really solid traction.
Once he hit that elite group containing Mark Webber, Lewis Hamilton, Sergio Perez, and Nico Rosberg, he hit a wall. He managed to get past Rosberg, but that was about it.
He couldn't close the gap to Sergio Perez at all; he was stuck a full second behind him the whole time.
Passing Pastor Maldonado without DRS isn't that impressive either, especially when you consider how many people were making overtakes in spots where DRS wasn't even allowed.

Ever wonder what it's like being at the back of a train where every single car ahead of you has DRS active?

Honestly, there's no amount of top speed that can make up for that.

Hmm, I’m not entirely sure if Perez's DRS was actually active very often... he had it for a few moments, but I don't think he had it during those last three or four laps.
🤷
At one point, he managed to get right on their tails, but then they pulled away and created a gap larger than a second.
I could be wrong, though... I'm definitely not an expert on all this.

Nathan Jones98 said:Vettel keeps getting brought up because he always seems to end up in the fastest car or just gets incredibly lucky.
I honestly haven't seen an F1 driver with this much luck—and just as much lack of skill—when it comes to actually passing people on the track...
What Alonso pulled off in Bahrain was the real deal—it showed what a true F1 driver can do when they're fighting against a massive handicap.

Vettel stays in the conversation because people view him as the best, and isn't it simply difficult to sit at the summit? When you are at the top, you inevitably become a thorn in everyone's side, particularly for the fans of rival drivers. While Vettel may not be my personal favorite, I have come to accept his status as one of the elite, which makes his victories far less grating to my sensibilities. Perhaps most frustrating for those who refuse to acknowledge his talent is the mere fact that he is only 25 years old; surely, there are at least ten more high-quality seasons left in him. If you can't beat them, join them 🙂

steelmaker83 said:Why is that strange? These two are the only ones fighting for titles over the last three years, so naturally, everyone else is sidelined. It’s a good thing a third driver eventually steps up to shake things up...

Look at the numbers since Sebastian Vettel entered Formula 1:
Sebastian Vettel has 3
Lewis Hamilton has 1
Jenson Button has 1
Kimi Raikkonen has 1
☕

Besides that, what about freaking Fernando Alonso in 2011? 😕
And who claims Alonso was the only one keeping pace with Vettel in 2010, or even 2012... let alone 2011? 🤦
Go watch an actual race instead of just talking shit about the Ferrari car.🙄

Nathan Jones98 said:Vettel keeps getting brought up because he always seems to end up in the fastest car or just gets incredibly lucky.
I honestly haven't seen an F1 driver with this much luck—and just as much lack of skill—when it comes to actually passing people on the track...
What Alonso pulled off in Bahrain was the real deal—it showed what a true F1 driver can do when they're fighting against a massive handicap.

🤦
Vettel has overtaken Kimi Raikkonen, Fernando Alonso, Nico Rosberg, Nico Hulkenberg, di Rest, and Felipe Massa on track...

Who has the Maestro actually beaten?
Valtteri Bottas, Pastor Maldonado, Jenson Button, Nico Rosberg, and Nico Hulkenberg. That’s basically it from anyone worth mentioning or capable of defending themselves, as far as I can remember...
And that's even considering Rosberg and Button spent just as much time in the pits as Alonso did and pitted the same number of times...

Obviously, what happened now in Bahrain is way better than last year in Abu Dhabi... going from the pit lane straight to the podium is total garbage and a sign of a driver who doesn't know how to pass, just like the US Grand Prix 2012...

stormybadger8 said:🤦
Vettel has overtaken Kimi Raikkonen, Fernando Alonso, Nico Rosberg, Nico Hulkenberg, di Rest, and Felipe Massa on track...

Who has the Maestro actually beaten?
Valtteri Bottas, Pastor Maldonado, Jenson Button, Nico Rosberg, and Nico Hulkenberg. That’s basically it from anyone worth mentioning or capable of defending themselves, as far as I can remember...
And that's even considering Rosberg and Button spent just as much time in the pits as Alonso did and pitted the same number of times...

Obviously, what happened now in Bahrain is way better than last year in Abu Dhabi... going from the pit lane straight to the podium is total garbage and a sign of a driver who doesn't know how to pass, just like the US Grand Prix 2012...

Subconsciously, you left out Sebastian Vettel.

stormybadger8 said:Look at the numbers since Sebastian Vettel entered Formula 1:
Sebastian Vettel has 3
Lewis Hamilton has 1
Jenson Button has 1
Kimi Raikkonen has 1
☕

Besides that, what about freaking Fernando Alonso in 2011? 😕
And who claims Alonso was the only one keeping pace with Vettel in 2010, or even 2012... let alone 2011? 🤦
Go watch an actual race instead of just talking shit about the Ferrari car.🙄

Are you for real?
You're looking at Kimi Raikkonen's title from back when he was driving—wait, remind me... oh yeah, Toro Rosso
Remind me what he was driving during Lewis Hamilton's era—man, no, also Toro Rosso
Remind me about 2009? Button absolutely crushed the competition and proved he wasn't someone to be dismissed