2013 United States Grand Prix (Las Vegas) - April 21st

steelmaker83 said:😲

So, you're disgusted by a guy because he dared to shake up the establishment? No. Cheating, betrayals, blackmail, and lying are completely foreign to McLaren—a team that was actually caught red-handed, and not just with a finger in the cookie jar, but waist-deep in it.

But sure, you're all about moral integrity. I get it. You probably spend your free time rescuing whales.

If all of this turns your stomach, you have fundamentally misunderstood the sport you chose to watch. To break your childhood illusion: yes, people cheat, lie, steal, deceive, and stab each other in the back—with knives, or rather sabers—on a daily basis. It is a core component of the circus.

And yet, you find it repulsive when a driver uses those exact same methods to rattle the big fish.

You have seriously missed the point of this sport.

Look, even a "good kid" like Vettel is a little brat. That's just how it is. There is no mercy for the naive.

I’d tell you that you’re being an idiot, but I wouldn't want to get a penalty for it.🤣

My idol in Formula 1 is Ron Dennis. So much for moral high grounds and childhood illusions.🤣

Nathan Jones98 said:Are you for real?
You're looking at Kimi Raikkonen's title from back when he was driving—wait, remind me... oh yeah, Toro Rosso
Remind me what he was driving during Lewis Hamilton's era—man, no, also Toro Rosso
Remind me about 2009? Button absolutely crushed the competition and proved he wasn't someone to be dismissed

Obviously.☕
Good grief, Red Bull Racing or STR, whatever... we’re talking about who actually won things during Sebastian Vettel's era and who his real rivals were.

Jenson Button took the title in a seriously competitive Red Bull RB2009, and unlike Fernando Alonso, he was actually in the hunt in 2011 too.

As far as I know, back in 2010, it was Lewis Hamilton, Mark Webber, and Jenson Button in the mix, not just Alonso.

In 2011, Alonso wasn't even in the conversation.

By 2012, Kimi Raikkonen was right there in the fight. Even if he had zero chance of actually taking the championship, he was a much more serious threat to Sebastian Vettel than Fernando Alonso ever was.☕
Whether people are playing blind or just desperate to worship the so-called "Maestro" is another story, but Sebastian Vettel primarily had to fight Lewis Hamilton to win; he was his number one rival.

Alonso has been a top-tier points collector for the last few seasons and honestly for a long time. He's like a cruiser on the track, consistently picking up points, and this points system rewards exactly that.
But in reality, Sebastian Vettel always had to fight way harder for wins against Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, and Kimi Raikkonen, and rarely against Fernando Alonso.😉

If you look at all this realistically, Lewis Hamilton has been Sebastian Vettel's main rival (at least up until now).☕ Whether it’s fighting for Pole or fighting for the win, it's him.
☕

Jason Campbell70 said:Subconsciously, you left out Sebastian Vettel.

I'm talking about overtaking from the back, and as far as I know, he didn't actually overtake Sebastian Vettel☕
He just jumped him at the start because that Ferrari was lightning fast off the line, but after that, he completely blew it and lost the spot anyway.😁

stormybadger8 said:Obviously.☕
Good grief, Red Bull Racing or STR, whatever... we’re talking about who actually won things during Sebastian Vettel's era and who his real rivals were.

Jenson Button took the title in a seriously competitive Red Bull RB2009, and unlike Fernando Alonso, he was actually in the hunt in 2011 too.

As far as I know, back in 2010, it was Lewis Hamilton, Mark Webber, and Jenson Button in the mix, not just Alonso.

In 2011, Alonso wasn't even in the conversation.

By 2012, Kimi Raikkonen was right there in the fight. Even if he had zero chance of actually taking the championship, he was a much more serious threat to Sebastian Vettel than Fernando Alonso ever was.☕
Whether people are playing blind or just desperate to worship the so-called "Maestro" is another story, but Sebastian Vettel primarily had to fight Lewis Hamilton to win; he was his number one rival.

Alonso has been a top-tier points collector for the last few seasons and honestly for a long time. He's like a cruiser on the track, consistently picking up points, and this points system rewards exactly that.
But in reality, Sebastian Vettel always had to fight way harder for wins against Lewis Hamilton, Jenson Button, and Kimi Raikkonen, and rarely against Fernando Alonso.😉

If you look at all this realistically, Lewis Hamilton has been Sebastian Vettel's main rival (at least up until now).☕ Whether it’s fighting for Pole or fighting for the win, it's him.
☕

Look, this year Vettel only beat Fernando Alonso when the guy was driving a broken car.
Whenever Alonso actually had decent tech, Vettel lost.
So yeah, this is finally the season where we can talk about Ferrari having actual, decent material.

redheron12 said:I’d tell you that you’re being an idiot, but I wouldn't want to get a penalty for it.🤣

My idol in Formula 1 is Ron Dennis. So much for moral high grounds and childhood illusions.🤣

Tell that to yourself, then you won't get penalized. And if I'm an idiot just because I'm stating facts—fine, so be it.

The fact that you can't hold a discussion without resorting to insults says everything about you. And having an "idol"—lol, an idol—says even more.

Since you clearly need someone to worship, you could have at least picked a relevant character...
ron dennis 🤣

stormybadger8 said:Look at the numbers since Sebastian Vettel entered Formula 1:
Sebastian Vettel has 3
Lewis Hamilton has 1
Jenson Button has 1
Kimi Raikkonen has 1
☕

Besides that, what about freaking Fernando Alonso in 2011? 😕
And who claims Alonso was the only one keeping pace with Vettel in 2010, or even 2012... let alone 2011? 🤦
Go watch an actual race instead of just talking shit about the Ferrari car.🙄

Sebastian Vettel hasn't been fighting for titles since he joined F1; he's been fighting for them over the last three seasons and maybe 2009.

Take 2011, for example. Even if the McLaren was arguably the best car on the grid that year (just like the following season), it was specifically Fernando Alonso in 2011 who provided such intense—albeit futile—resistance.

The fact that Button finished further down the standings than Alonso that year, despite being in what might have been the best car on the grid, says everything you need to know about Button... and McLaren.

Hey, does anyone happen to have a link to a recording of the race?

Amanda Kelly said:Look, this year Vettel only beat Fernando Alonso when the guy was driving a broken car.
Whenever Alonso actually had decent tech, Vettel lost.
So yeah, this is finally the season where we can talk about Ferrari having actual, decent material.

Even if his car had been functioning perfectly, would Fernando Alonso really have stood a chance against Sebastian Vettel in that final race? It seems to me that even before those issues with his DRS surfaced, the gap on the track suggested he was already struggling to bridge it.

Amanda Kelly said:Look, this year Vettel only beat Fernando Alonso when the guy was driving a broken car.
Whenever Alonso actually had decent tech, Vettel lost.
So yeah, this is finally the season where we can talk about Ferrari having actual, decent material.

Okay, maybe that’s how it goes this year... I'm not saying it definitely will.
But honestly, I can barely remember a single Friday where Sebastian Vettel and Fernando Alonso were actually fighting tooth and nail on track.🤷

The main reason Fernando Alonso was even in the title hunt over the last three years was because Red Bull and especially McLaren kept breaking down. Without those DNFs, there wouldn't have been much of a fight at all.
Whether people want to admit it or not, the core reason for that battle lately was just the insane reliability of the Ferrari cars compared to the absolute mess of reliability at McLaren and Red Bull...
I mean, credit where it's due—building a car that actually finishes races is no small feat.👍

As for this season, sure, Fernando Alonso had a bad car...
But if you ask me, there's no real theory suggesting he would've won in Malaysia or Bahrain even if his car had been perfect.

steelmaker83 said:Sebastian Vettel hasn't been fighting for titles since he joined F1; he's been fighting for them over the last three seasons and maybe 2009.

Take 2011, for example. Even if the McLaren was arguably the best car on the grid that year (just like the following season), it was specifically Fernando Alonso in 2011 who provided such intense—albeit futile—resistance.

The fact that Button finished further down the standings than Alonso that year, despite being in what might have been the best car on the grid, says everything you need to know about Button... and McLaren.

Of course he fights for them. Every real driver is fighting for the title every single season.☕
I don't watch Formula 1 with that old "it's the taking part that counts" attitude... For me, the only thing that matters in Formula 1 is winning and taking the trophy.☕

steelmaker83 said:Sebastian Vettel hasn't been fighting for titles since he joined F1; he's been fighting for them over the last three seasons and maybe 2009.

Take 2011, for example. Even if the McLaren was arguably the best car on the grid that year (just like the following season), it was specifically Fernando Alonso in 2011 who provided such intense—albeit futile—resistance.

The fact that Button finished further down the standings than Alonso that year, despite being in what might have been the best car on the grid, says everything you need to know about Button... and McLaren.

And who else was fighting for the title in 2009 if not Vettel?🙄
I mean, being the runner-up in 2009—finishing only 9 points behind at the end—doesn't exactly scream "he wasn't in the fight."😵

steelmaker83 said:Sebastian Vettel hasn't been fighting for titles since he joined F1; he's been fighting for them over the last three seasons and maybe 2009.

Take 2011, for example. Even if the McLaren was arguably the best car on the grid that year (just like the following season), it was specifically Fernando Alonso in 2011 who provided such intense—albeit futile—resistance.

The fact that Button finished further down the standings than Alonso that year, despite being in what might have been the best car on the grid, says everything you need to know about Button... and McLaren.

Right, so Alonso was "fighting" in 2011... a season where he finished 4th and was 135 points behind at the end. That's his version of fighting for the title. But Vettel in 2009? He wasn't really fighting, or maybe he eventually just started.🙄

Seriously, what a brilliant take.🤦

stormybadger8 said:Of course he fights for them. Every real driver is fighting for the title every single season.☕
I don't watch Formula 1 with that old "it's the taking part that counts" attitude... For me, the only thing that matters in Formula 1 is winning and taking the trophy.☕

And who else was fighting for the title in 2009 if not Vettel?🙄
I mean, being the runner-up in 2009—finishing only 9 points behind at the end—doesn't exactly scream "he wasn't in the fight."😵

Right, so Alonso was "fighting" in 2011... a season where he finished 4th and was 135 points behind at the end. That's his version of fighting for the title. But Vettel in 2009? He wasn't really fighting, or maybe he eventually just started.🙄

Seriously, what a brilliant take.🤦

By "eventually," I didn't mean he wasn't fighting, because he was—he was the only real threat.
What I meant was the broader context of that entire season—the "illegal" stuff regarding the Brawn dominance, and the fact that Sebastian Vettel was still relatively green and prone to rookie mistakes back then.

So, I misspoke—of course he was fighting for the title in 2009, he just wasn't fully mature yet. That's what I meant.

Honestly, I think today's Sebastian Vettel would have beaten the 2009 version of Jenson Button in that Brawn car.

And I agree that all drivers fight for the title; I never said they didn't. But when you look back at things retrospectively, you analyze them based on the final outcome. It's like how Lewis Hamilton had every advantage to become champion last season, yet in the end, he wasn't even a factor in the fight—so he was fighting, but he wasn't really fighting. I hope that's clear.

Well, I just read that new Vojanov piece over on Jerge's site and honestly... what a joke.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?p...Adrian%20Sutil

If you ignore all that nonsense involving Massa, Sutil actually clocked a faster lap than Sebastian Vettel during three to five different laps.😲 😲 😲
Man, this Formula 1 car is seriously something else.😳

steelmaker83 said:By "eventually," I didn't mean he wasn't fighting, because he was—he was the only real threat.
What I meant was the broader context of that entire season—the "illegal" stuff regarding the Brawn dominance, and the fact that Sebastian Vettel was still relatively green and prone to rookie mistakes back then.

So, I misspoke—of course he was fighting for the title in 2009, he just wasn't fully mature yet. That's what I meant.

Honestly, I think today's Sebastian Vettel would have beaten the 2009 version of Jenson Button in that Brawn car.

And I agree that all drivers fight for the title; I never said they didn't. But when you look back at things retrospectively, you analyze them based on the final outcome. It's like how Lewis Hamilton had every advantage to become champion last season, yet in the end, he wasn't even a factor in the fight—so he was fighting, but he wasn't really fighting. I hope that's clear.

In my book, Vettel did an amazing job pulling off that championship fight toward the end of 2009.🤷
He actually messed up at the start of that season, not the end... but by then, it was simply too late. I don't recall him screwing anything up during the second half of the year.🤷

Basically, if you look at his career, every single season except 2011 and 2013, he started off poorly. He’d always have some massive screw-up in the first few races that left him digging himself out of a points hole for the rest of the year.😉
At the end of the day, he has very few wins in the first half of the season, if you ignore 2011.😉
It's like he's still missing that initial learning curve from 2007 since he didn't drive then...🤣

Regarding what was said about Hamilton—looking strictly at the stats, you could argue that.
But interestingly, Hamilton was still Vettel's biggest threat in 2012, even after he'd basically dropped out of any realistic title contention.
Take the 2012 US Grand Prix, for instance. I remember it for that intense chase for the win between Vettel and Hamilton... Honestly, that felt like a genuine, pure battle between two drivers, more than anything else.

stormybadger8 said:In my book, Vettel did an amazing job pulling off that championship fight toward the end of 2009.🤷
He actually messed up at the start of that season, not the end... but by then, it was simply too late. I don't recall him screwing anything up during the second half of the year.🤷

Basically, if you look at his career, every single season except 2011 and 2013, he started off poorly. He’d always have some massive screw-up in the first few races that left him digging himself out of a points hole for the rest of the year.😉
At the end of the day, he has very few wins in the first half of the season, if you ignore 2011.😉
It's like he's still missing that initial learning curve from 2007 since he didn't drive then...🤣

Regarding what was said about Hamilton—looking strictly at the stats, you could argue that.
But interestingly, Hamilton was still Vettel's biggest threat in 2012, even after he'd basically dropped out of any realistic title contention.
Take the 2012 US Grand Prix, for instance. I remember it for that intense chase for the win between Vettel and Hamilton... Honestly, that felt like a genuine, pure battle between two drivers, more than anything else.

That’s what I’m getting at. Last season, unlike the driver who didn't have the setup but ended up fighting anyway, Lewis Hamilton had every single prerequisite for a title run and an equal fight for the championship. In the end, though, it all boiled down to that scrap and a Pyrrhic victory in Texas—which was totally irrelevant for Lewis Hamilton, but meant significantly more for Sebastian Vettel, as it was a defeat that cost him 7 points, even if it didn't ultimately decide the title.

And since you brought it up, isn't it actually tragic how many talented drivers are on the grid, yet we've only seen a genuine, direct battle between Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton, Sebastian Vettel, and Kimi Raikkonen maybe five or six times over the last three seasons?

In about 60 races... it's a disaster.

It sounds crazy, but if you look at those Lewis Hamilton races and his DNFs, they basically decided the championship outcome. They even dictated who was actually in the title fight... and he wasn't even one of them...
And it wasn't just back in 2012... I honestly think that's the main reason he left.😳

If the timing of his retirements in 2012 had been even slightly different, the whole picture changes...
We’re talking about anything from Sebastian Vettel winning the title with way more points if Lewis Hamilton hadn't dropped out of certain races, to Fernando Alonso potentially taking the crown by a single point if Hamilton hadn't retired at the Singapore Grand Prix (assuming he could have beaten Vettel). See, the 1st-3rd standings give Vettel a 10-point cushion, but a 2nd-4th scenario would have only been a 6-point gap—that's exactly 4 crucial points swung in Alonso's favor...
And if those hadn't happened at all, Hamilton probably would've been a two-time champ...

Bottom line: these last few seasons have mostly been defined by McLaren repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot.
Sure, Red Bull Racing wasn't perfect, but they definitely made way fewer mistakes than McLaren did...
And Ferrari made the fewest blunders overall, though their screw-ups tended to happen in absolutely critical races... they were few, but man, they were brutal.😁

Here's an interesting little breakdown.
From 2010 to now...
Total retirements...

Felipe Massa - 5
Fernando Alonso - 6
Ferrari - 11

Sebastian Vettel - 6
Mark Webber - 7
Red Bull Racing - 13

Jenson Button - 9
Lewis Hamilton - 13
McLaren - 21

Obviously, it isn't all on the teams; drivers mess up too...
But looking at the numbers, everyone seems to be roughly in the same ballpark regarding the ratio of team errors to driver errors...

That's not even counting all the races where it wasn't a full retirement, but just a massive blunder—like that situation with Fernando Alonso in the final race...
But even looking just at this list, you see exactly what happened and why. Damn, Lewis Hamilton had more DNFs at McLaren than Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Vettel combined... or even the entirety of Ferrari/Red Bull. To make matters worse, Jenson Button wasn't far off either.😳

Basically, the common narrative is that Fernando Alonso blew three titles, but the truth is Lewis Hamilton and McLaren actually blew a good chunk of them. In fact, Alonso only even got a shot at fighting for the title because of those massive failures.

It really is a shame we don't get that kind of genuine fighting more often.😢
Just imagine the first couple of laps here in Bahrain without freaking DRS, if the grid looked like this:
1. Lewis Hamilton
2. Sebastian Vettel
3. Fernando Alonso
4. Kimi Raikkonen

Those first 3 or 4 laps would have been legendary.🙏

graniteharbor502 said:Even if his car had been functioning perfectly, would Fernando Alonso really have stood a chance against Sebastian Vettel in that final race? It seems to me that even before those issues with his DRS surfaced, the gap on the track suggested he was already struggling to bridge it.

Hold on, I actually agree—it was totally possible. Vettel looked incredible, just super aggressive in that beast of a car.
But you can't make a definitive diagnosis based on just the first couple of laps, so that part of the statement doesn't really hold water for me.
Vettel was clearly in top-tier form, while Alonso wasn't even in the frame.
So, I wouldn't bet $3.25 that Alonso wouldn't end up taking it anyway.

stormybadger8 said:It sounds crazy, but if you look at those Lewis Hamilton races and his DNFs, they basically decided the championship outcome. They even dictated who was actually in the title fight... and he wasn't even one of them...
And it wasn't just back in 2012... I honestly think that's the main reason he left.😳

If the timing of his retirements in 2012 had been even slightly different, the whole picture changes...
We’re talking about anything from Sebastian Vettel winning the title with way more points if Lewis Hamilton hadn't dropped out of certain races, to Fernando Alonso potentially taking the crown by a single point if Hamilton hadn't retired at the Singapore Grand Prix (assuming he could have beaten Vettel). See, the 1st-3rd standings give Vettel a 10-point cushion, but a 2nd-4th scenario would have only been a 6-point gap—that's exactly 4 crucial points swung in Alonso's favor...
And if those hadn't happened at all, Hamilton probably would've been a two-time champ...

Bottom line: these last few seasons have mostly been defined by McLaren repeatedly shooting themselves in the foot.
Sure, Red Bull Racing wasn't perfect, but they definitely made way fewer mistakes than McLaren did...
And Ferrari made the fewest blunders overall, though their screw-ups tended to happen in absolutely critical races... they were few, but man, they were brutal.😁

Here's an interesting little breakdown.
From 2010 to now...
Total retirements...

Felipe Massa - 5
Fernando Alonso - 6
Ferrari - 11

Sebastian Vettel - 6
Mark Webber - 7
Red Bull Racing - 13

Jenson Button - 9
Lewis Hamilton - 13
McLaren - 21

Obviously, it isn't all on the teams; drivers mess up too...
But looking at the numbers, everyone seems to be roughly in the same ballpark regarding the ratio of team errors to driver errors...

That's not even counting all the races where it wasn't a full retirement, but just a massive blunder—like that situation with Fernando Alonso in the final race...
But even looking just at this list, you see exactly what happened and why. Damn, Lewis Hamilton had more DNFs at McLaren than Fernando Alonso and Sebastian Vettel combined... or even the entirety of Ferrari/Red Bull. To make matters worse, Jenson Button wasn't far off either.😳

Basically, the common narrative is that Fernando Alonso blew three titles, but the truth is Lewis Hamilton and McLaren actually blew a good chunk of them. In fact, Alonso only even got a shot at fighting for the title because of those massive failures.

It really is a shame we don't get that kind of genuine fighting more often.😢
Just imagine the first couple of laps here in Bahrain without freaking DRS, if the grid looked like this:
1. Lewis Hamilton
2. Sebastian Vettel
3. Fernando Alonso
4. Kimi Raikkonen

Those first 3 or 4 laps would have been legendary.🙏

We’re going to see plenty of that this year, more than ever before.

Amanda Kelly said:Hold on, I actually agree—it was totally possible. Vettel looked incredible, just super aggressive in that beast of a car.
But you can't make a definitive diagnosis based on just the first couple of laps, so that part of the statement doesn't really hold water for me.
Vettel was clearly in top-tier form, while Alonso wasn't even in the frame.
So, I wouldn't bet $3.25 that Alonso wouldn't end up taking it anyway.

Man, there are so many "what ifs" here...
What if Romain Grosjean hadn't punctured his tire and been forced into an early pit stop, followed by two stints on mediums that just don't suit Lotus nearly as well as the hards?
What if someone had actually pushed Vettel, forcing him to really hammer the throttle? Would his tires have given out then, or not?
And what about Alonso? Would his tires have exploded like Felipe Massa's if he’d been fighting his crew at the front and driving faster with functional DRS?

Who knows...
All we know for sure is that Vettel won. He overtook Alonso before that technical glitch, pulled away well outside the DRS zone, and was clocking faster times than Alonso during the period when his DRS was working.

Honestly, before the race even started, it didn't seem like much of a question whether it would be Vettel and someone from Lotus on the podium (maybe both, or one plus Mark Webber)...
I didn't see Ferrari in the mix at all—and I'm not even being a fanboy here—but Red Bull Racing and Lotus were just exceptionally strong in Bahrain.😉
Besides, back in Malaysia, it was already obvious that Vettel (more so the guy than the Red Bull Racing car itself) absolutely loves the Medium and Hard tires. 😉
In Malaysia, he was one of those drivers who pulled off the longest stint on Mediums while maintaining blistering pace... and he did the exact same thing on the hards.😉

From where I'm sitting, the main issue for Red Bull Racing and Vettel this season is the soft compound... and those super softs are an absolute disaster for Red Bull Racing.😬
It'd be cool if there was a site listing upcoming races and their designated tire compounds... you could probably figure out who's going to be in peak form for any given race based on that.😁

stormybadger8 said:I'm talking about overtaking from the back, and as far as I know, he didn't actually overtake Sebastian Vettel☕
He just jumped him at the start because that Ferrari was lightning fast off the line, but after that, he completely blew it and lost the spot anyway.😁

See, see...

Jason Campbell70 said:See, see...

See what I told you?

At the end of the day, overtaking right at the start isn't really connected to how people pass each other later in the race. It's a totally different beast...
What actually matters here is track position—whether you're on the clean side or the dirty side—and the quality of the car's launch procedure. After that, it's down to the driver and their control...

Besides, it wasn't exactly a shock that Ferrari would overtake Red Bull Racing if they had the clean side and Red Bull was stuck on the dirty side...
Honestly, it would’ve surprised me more if they hadn't passed them at the start. And frankly, I'm just glad Felipe Massa didn't lose his cool about it.🙂
Because let's be real, Ferrari is damn good off the line. Over the last few seasons, they've been better than the competition at starts roughly as much as Red Bull was better in a single qualifying lap back in 2011...
I can't even remember a single race where both Ferraris didn't gain at least one spot on the start...