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Mary (2021)

Started by Patrick Martin · · 👁 4 views · 81 replies

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Participants Patrick MartinEthan Davis34Arthur Brown6Justin Richardson7feralpilot0David Jackson2northerncrane4Larry Walker24casualbadger69amberfox7Jack Cook7Megan Thomas5Anthony Lewis79Joshua Smith5Thomas Walker84Betty Chase4hiddenranger7Amanda Robinson4Dana Martin95
Patrick Martin Patrick Martin RegularOP
702 messages
joined Aug 2015
#1 ·
Mary (2021)

image

I’ve been shouting from the rooftops for ages that as a nation with such massive coastlines, we really ought to be leveraging that beauty for cinema. There is just endless potential sitting right there in our waters, and what happens? BINGO!

Finally, a movie actually worth paying attention to!

Not only does it showcase the beauty of America in a way that feels genuine (which is how it should be), but it also uses the ocean as this heavy, dramatic element.
I don't think I've ever seen a film that portrays American women 🙏
quite this beautifully. It's surprisingly emotional, totally touching, and visually stunning. Plus, it keeps you on edge.

And man, I was calling out for an international actor to get involved, and this casting choice is a total home run!

The dad character felt a little bit overbearing, though. ☕

4.8🙂0.2
Ethan Davis34 Ethan Davis34 Member
14 messages
joined Sep 2022
#2 ·
The way the protagonist speaks with that local dialect just works perfectly.
The settings are great too—Key West and somewhere else, right?
Arthur Brown6 Arthur Brown6 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Feb 2019
#3 ·
Locations Mary.
Patrick Martin Patrick Martin RegularOP
702 messages
joined Aug 2015
#4 ·
Yeah, it’s kind of wild how they don't really name any specific places in the movie—well, maybe just a passing mention during that scene where they were touring the island for the sale, but hey, don't quote me on that. Honestly, though? It felt right. It felt classy. That's just my take, and personally, I wasn't bothered by it one bit.

I mean, if you're looking at this from an international perspective, people usually want to know that this is set in America; it gives the story some much-needed context right off the bat.

But honestly, the fact that people are actually digging deeper and doing their own homework to figure out where these scenes were shot? That's proof the movie actually worked. It hooked them.
Patrick Martin Patrick Martin RegularOP
702 messages
joined Aug 2015
#5 ·
Regarding the whole symbolism and metaphor thing with Mary in relation to the main young protagonist—man, I’ve got nothing but praise. Finally, we get something that manages to be incredibly imaginative while still being totally, crystal clear.
Justin Richardson7 Justin Richardson7 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Jan 2021
#6 ·
Patrick Martin said:Regarding the symbolism and metaphor of Mary in relation to the main young protagonist, I honestly have nothing but praise; it’s refreshing to see something that manages to be both imaginative and incredibly transparent at the same time.

Well then, let’s hear those praises!
I want to see this supposed transparency in the symbolism and metaphor of Mary.

... personally, I still don't quite grasp this obsession our people have with the Mediterranean, spanning from Zafranović's Haloe (or even earlier, from Mimič's Kaya), through Leon Lučev in Two Sunny Days, all the way from Thirst etc. etc. to Mary... so, I would very much enjoy seeing your explanations regarding these symbols and metaphors, after which I might follow up with a few questions of my own that fall a bit below the belt.
feralpilot0 feralpilot0 Active Member
142 messages
joined Jul 2018
#7 ·
Patrick Martin said:My old man's a bit too intense for my taste☕

4.8🙂0.2

What were you even watching—that sludge of "deep" dialogue, unbuttoned shirts, brooding faces, and overly dramatic scenes? Is that really your idea of cinema?
That movie is nothing more than a massive waste of time.
Patrick Martin Patrick Martin RegularOP
702 messages
joined Aug 2015
#8 ·
Justin Richardson7 said:Well, why don't you give us some credit then!
Show me this "transparency" in the symbolism and metaphors of Mary

First off, just the fact that anyone even thought to bring up that weird, solitary little fish, Mary, is a total home run. And then to use her for the film title 🙏

I see her—Mary—as being completely tied to the personality of young Julia🤷

Why? Because she perfectly captures those teenage identity crises our main protagonist goes through. She’s stunning but vulnerable, kind of timid and skeptical, living in her own little world, hiding in her "hole," just waiting for the right moment to finally "strike"...
Her father is ruthlessly hunting her down and suppressing her...

It’s also no accident that she—the Mary figure—is the one who shows her the way out of that pit...

We're talking about a rare, one-of-a-kind species here, much like how every single person—every man or woman—is unique...

That's just my take on it🤷

... I still don't get why our guys on the Mediterranean are always so pissed off, from Zafranović's Haloe (actually even before that, with Mimič's Kaja), going through Leon Lučev in Two Sunny Days, thirst etc. etc. to Mary...

I don't know, I feel like that whole stereotype about people from the coast comes from the Midwest or something, and it has absolutely nothing to do with reality🤷

So, I'd love to hear your breakdown of all these symbols and metaphors, and then I'll hit you with a few low blows below the belt.

Go ahead, lay it on me—love is pain🙂
Patrick Martin Patrick Martin RegularOP
702 messages
joined Aug 2015
#9 ·
feralpilot0 said:I mean, what were you even looking at? That sludge they call dialogue? Those half-buttoned shirts, the attitude, those overly dramatic scenes—you actually think that stuff works?
That movie is such a massive letdown, it’s practically painful.

Look, I'll say it again: the way they wrote the dad felt totally forced. It was way too much; they could've dialed it back a notch.

But then again, if you really sit back and look at it, the whole thing gains some weight because of the circumstances they're stuck in—just trying to survive, those tense family dynamics, the general mindset and all that junk...
David Jackson2 David Jackson2 Active Member
55 messages
joined Mar 2023
#10 ·
I honestly thought this movie was great. It’s such a breath of fresh air compared to the usual stuff coming out of American studios lately.
Look, I wasn't feeling everything about it—especially when it comes to the directing—but that really doesn't matter much when the overall vibe is this positive.

The contrast they built between the tourists and the locals was brilliant—you know, that whole dynamic where they try to hustle the outsider—and then that scene showing the chaos with the firefighters... that hit home. I don't think the father was overplayed, though he might have been a little one-dimensional at times. But honestly? Maybe the most fascinating character was Julia's mother; there is just so much to read between the lines with her.
Justin Richardson7 Justin Richardson7 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Jan 2021
#11 ·
Patrick Martin said:First off, the mere fact that someone actually thought to focus on that unusual and self-concealing fish, Mary, is already a massive win.

Fine, I’ll grant you that, but it’s a bit touchy when you claim that something has finally been done that is "transparently understandable." I don't buy it; we’re going to have to discuss that, and I intend to use a bit of Socratic questioning to lead you toward realizing your own qualifications are perhaps a bit too easy.

I might tentatively agree that this film is superior to the other pieces of Havc garbage floating around the American cinematic landscape—when you consider things like Diana Budisavljević, She Wore a Red Rag, and similar nonsense, then this looks like something from another galaxy.

However, calling this "transparent" is a stretch; it isn't quite articulated yet, feeling more like a collection of disconnected elements tossed together. I’ll explain what those elements are later, but first, I’m going to skip around a little with some pleasant questions.

For instance,
Janice is birch, and Julia is Mary. But if you insist on clinging to these "symbolisms," you could argue that while the Birch film is birch transparent, the Mary film is certainly not. Birch depicts a somewhat more understandable world where the characters are more defined, which immediately implies clarity. That is the true definition of "transparent."

In Mary, that simply isn't the case.
All three characters are confusing, and if you want to include the "foreigner," then all four are a muddle.

A question for you, though David Jackson2 is welcome to chime in: what is it that Julia actually wants?
Answering this would bring us closer to your point—that Julia would be transparent, or rather, "transparently understandable," which is your specific descriptor (a pretty heavy-handed term that should imply something is the clearest thing in existence, whereas we will see that Julia is anything but; in fact, she is a confused consciousness or, to put it bluntly, more obscure than a fog bank).

And before I go any further and exhaust the topic, let’s pause for your responses before moving on. So, tell me, what is it that this supposedly transparent Julia actually wants?
Patrick Martin Patrick Martin RegularOP
702 messages
joined Aug 2015
#12 ·
Justin Richardson7 said:So, what exactly is this supposedly "birch transparent" Julia looking for?

Maybe just freedom? 🤷

For herself and her mother.

No more hiding out in some tiny little hole 🙂

because Mary is a beautiful fish—truly stunning—but once she's out of that hole ☕
Patrick Martin Patrick Martin RegularOP
702 messages
joined Aug 2015
#13 ·
The characters are just a total mess because, let's be real, there's zero peace or actual understanding going on here
Justin Richardson7 Justin Richardson7 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Jan 2021
#14 ·
Patrick Martin said:maybe freedom? 🤷

for herself and her mother.

no more hiding away in some hole 🙂

because Mary is a beautiful fish, absolutely stunning, but once she leaves that hole ☕

Exactly.
But there is a massive difference between clinging to mere wishes—which is just a mental denial of reality—and actually manifesting freedom. In Julia's case, that second part simply isn't happening.

This brings me back to my initial question: where does this specific brand of resentment come from in our protagonist out on the Mediterranean Sea.

That little, sweet, bikini-clad, curvy Julia has been unmotivated and bitter from the very start. She’s just an aimless Mary, lacking any real purpose or direction. Or does she somehow imagine that some stranger on a white horse is going to swoop in and liberate her? You don't achieve freedom that way; it doesn't come from the outside, and no forced globetrotter can free you when liberation is something you have to undertake yourself. True liberation only counts if it is driven by an internal impulse, if you are the one doing the work.

In the film Mary, this sense of purpose isn't fully articulated, though certain elements are present. It all feels disjointed, lacking a cohesive whole. I'll get into that later.

Now, let's talk about the father.
What is he actually after, Patrick?
Patrick Martin Patrick Martin RegularOP
702 messages
joined Aug 2015
#15 ·
Justin Richardson7 said:Yeah, sure.
But look, there's a massive difference between just sitting around dreaming—which is basically just lying to yourself about how the world works—and actually exercising freedom. And in Julia's case, that second part just isn't happening.

Look, Julia isn't some seasoned life expert who needs to be lectured on how to act based on whatever rules you're trying to shove down her throat.

And besides, I never claimed she’d actually achieved freedom or that she should be doing it in any specific way; from the jump, I was just aiming at the concept of her striving for it.🤷

She's basically driven by fate, just like Murina is.🤷

That brings me back to my original question: where does this guy's sheer aggression toward the Mediterranean Sea come from?

Maybe it sounds a bit out there, but maybe it's because, deep down, he feels shackled to the ocean. Like, we see the coast and think it's all fun and games, but he might just be totally over it.🤷

Because the sea isn't just about tanning, surfing, or hanging out on the beach...

It's like how a farmer in the Midwest might get sick of staring at endless rows of corn and wheat; for him, it's just salt water and fish.

He actually despises it.

That little, sweet, bikini-clad Julia has been unmotivated and pissed off from the start. She's like an aimless Murina, drifting without any real purpose or direction. Or does she imagine some stranger on a white horse is going to swoop in and save her?? But that's not how freedom works: it doesn't come from the outside. Some forced globetrotter can't liberate you; you have to do it yourself. True liberation only counts if it's sparked from within.

Well, she's only just starting to try that, so she doesn't have the same perspective that you or I do.

In the movie Murina, that sense of purpose isn't fully spelled out, even if there are hints of it. It's all still disconnected; the whole picture is missing. We'll get to that later.

But that's exactly where the beauty lies—in the messiness. There aren't supposed to be rules here. Though, I will say, her white bikini represents innocence.

Let's talk about the dad now.
What does the old man want, Patrick Martin?

The dad wants a son. You happy now?
Justin Richardson7 Justin Richardson7 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Jan 2021
#16 ·
Patrick Martin said:From the very beginning, I have been looking to Ciljati her specific ambitions in that regard.

In some sense, she is simply bound by Determinator's design.

You are aiming for her ambition, whereas my goal is to point out that this supposed "ambition" isn't actually articulated; it’s more like a frantic delusion that lacks any sense of direction or purpose. An ambition has to be an aspiration toward something specific. It can't just hang there, undefined, which is exactly what we have here. Freedom requires a definition—a person has to actually know what they want, even if they are an inexperienced person like Julia. But if this same Julia is already raising questions, if she is rebelling against her father, God, tradition, family, duty, the very earth beneath her feet, and her homeland, then that rebellion is utterly senseless if it doesn't have a destination. And honestly, that is exactly how it was handled in the film: a gritty, bottom-of-the-barrel ending on par with Zafranović's Schwarz Hund—an endless end, a conclusion devoid of clear meaning. You see Julia babbling aimlessly in the Mediterranean Sea, drifting somewhere, but where? That part is missing.

Of course I can't appreciate that; I am far too principled and set in my ways, a true patriarch at heart. You might be able to find value in it, but you strike me as someone lacking any real backbone—some sort of secondary figure, perhaps a mere shadow of Julia's forged father. He is just like Julia; neither of them has a single clue what they actually want. They can't decide if they want to stand as leaders or if they’d rather just sell off the family estate to a bunch of fast-talking frauds who talk a big game only to end up making a mess of everything.

You really have to sit with this idea: Julia is essentially "determined"—fixed in place by her father, by God, by stone, and by tradition—and now she’s supposedly trying to break free, to bloom. But she has no idea how, and she lacks any real sense of direction. It would be one thing if this were just a snapshot of life, a realistic glimpse into the confusion of young women trying to find their footing in a world that demands they decide who they are before they're ready. But we aren't watching a documentary; this is a film. As a piece of cinema, it needs to function as a complete, cohesive whole that offers some semblance of meaning in place of Julia's disorientation. Yet, it fails to do that. The movie simply ends exactly where it began, with Julia out in the Atlantic, drifting somewhere. After all that rebellion against her father, only to end up stranded on dry land next to some stranger on a white yacht, she ultimately circles back to her starting point without having moved an inch. The film remains silent on what she actually gains from the ordeal, leaving us with an ending that feels aimless and hollow—just a restless, purposeless wandering in the sea.

The father is portrayed with this frustrating lack of clarity; he’s simultaneously a traditional patriarch and some sort of hollowed-out fraud, playing the part of a world-class waiter just to please people. He ends up humiliating himself in front of some obnoxious foreigner, leaving his entire character completely undefined. It’s the same issue with the movie Murina itself—it lacks a cohesive sense of purpose, which brings me back to my original point: the whole thing just isn't transparent.

The film Murina would have easily jumped ten points if it had just possessed a clearly articulated core message—something along the lines of: sacred things are not for sale.
The footage lacks any real sense of clarity; sure, there are certain elements drifting through the frame, but they feel entirely disjointed. It’s all just a muddled, foggy mess that lands more as a joke than anything substantial.

I can’t help but wonder what the ocean would sound like to my son if we weren't stuck in this place. If we were actually going somewhere, we would have had to lean into that tired cinematic trope—producing some supposedly "genius" epic about ancestral stones and ancient genes, all designed to mock the shallow outsiders while painting the father figure as some terrifying, mythic hero. Or, we could have taken the other route entirely: just let Julia go. Let her head off to Harvard, become some high-flying fraud, and live out her life as a fake globetrotter on a yacht, only to eventually sail back home and sell nothing but smoke and mirrors to those people obsessed with their own supposed heritage—people foolish enough to swallow those fairy tales.

The film reaches its peak when Julia opens a window from the darkness where she’s been trapped, signaling her supposed liberation while the anthem of the Queen of Heaven echoes through the scene. It sets up this grand procession standing in stark contrast to the small-time hustlers loitering around a party that’s meant to facilitate some shady land deal. However, the cinematic strength of the Queen of Heaven and that tension between the formal procession and the grubby festivities isn't fully realized; it remains nothing more than a fleeting moment lost in a sea of aimless grumbling and trivial nonsense.
Patrick Martin Patrick Martin RegularOP
702 messages
joined Aug 2015
#17 ·
Ugh, please, don't screw with me here—if that’s how they shot it, then the director would basically have to be some square-headed lady from the Ozarks.
Look, just get it through your head: there aren't any rules anymore. Actually, there never were. Everything is predetermined, period. And honestly? That's exactly what the movie is proving at the end.
It’s just one of those life lessons we all eventually stumble through, sooner or later. Whether it goes well or turns into a total disaster, you know?

When I brought up transparency, I was just using it as a metaphor—you know, for similarity, complexity, determinism... whatever terminology you want to use.
Obviously, I'm not claiming to have the absolute, ultimate truth here; this is just my take on things.

And yeah, I still stand by it: I think this approach does way more to promote America than any other ☕
northerncrane4 northerncrane4 Regular
384 messages
joined Aug 2005
#18 ·
Justin Richardson7 said:But if this same Julia is already raising questions—if she’s rebelling against her father, God, tradition, family, duty, or even the bare rock of her homeland—then that rebellion is pointless without a destination.

The movie's real value lies in the fact that the protagonist is just as stubborn and thick-headed as her uncle.
Justin Richardson7 said:That doesn't happen, because the film ends exactly how it started: Julia in the ocean, just drifting. After rebelling against her father and being left high and dry by some stranger on a white yacht, she ends up right back where she began—nothing has actually changed. What she takes away from all this? The film doesn't say; the ending is gritty, just aimless wandering in the sea.

It wouldn't hurt to understand cinematic language if you want to actually watch a film. At the end, she's swimming, filmed from an extreme high angle, boxed in by the frame. She isn't swimming toward freedom or the infinite—the furthest she can go is the edge of the screen.

Now, whether that was truly the director's intention is hard to say—my experience with American filmmakers is that they grasp semiotic tools about as well as you do—but you could certainly interpret it that way. From a high angle, or even through a Determinator's subjective lens... there's no escaping that interpretation.
Justin Richardson7 Justin Richardson7 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Jan 2021
#19 ·
Honestly, you clearly don't have a clue what I'm talking about, smud.
It’s just like with Nope; your strategy is always to show up after the fact, once I’ve already laid down the framework. If your flattery were actually true, you would have stepped up earlier to explain the actual substance of the film Murina—what it is, what it signifies, and all that matters. Instead, you just posture with talk of cinematic language and semiotics (my interpretation of your level is basically a high schooler trying to sound deep compared to an Ivy League scholar), yet you can't even grasp ten of my simplest points. You talk about freedom, but I’m telling you, there isn't a shred of it to be found here. And that fake ending, that cheap, trashy sequence with the swimming? It's nothing more than a gimmick; fundamentally, we haven't moved an inch.

But let's not dwell on the whining... If you actually have something substantive to contribute, I'm listening. I'll gladly walk you through exactly where you're missing the mark and why your takes on this film—or anything else, really—fall short, and why you simply aren't capable of driving a real discussion.
Patrick Martin Patrick Martin RegularOP
702 messages
joined Aug 2015
#20 ·
If you ask me, that's not running away (last shot), it’s actually the exact opposite

I mean, sure, you could call it an escape, if we're talking about back in the day.

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