F1 Italian GP - Monza (Sept 2, 2018)

stormybadger8 said:
Man, I swear, it doesn't even matter how fast the Ferrari car actually is when they've got a crew in the pits and on the pit wall that clearly has no clue what they're doing 🤦

And that's in the number 5 car, too. ☕

darkmarlin16 Asks:
If Lewis Hamilton manages to clinch the title this year, it’ll be his most impressive one yet. Winning in a car that isn't even the fastest on the grid? That changes everything. You see drivers like Fernando Alonso pull off career-defining seasons right after securing their titles, but Sebastian Vettel hasn't quite been able to replicate that kind of momentum. In fact, if he had a faster car, would he have even stood a chance in those head-to-head battles? He managed to scrape by twice before, but now? It's looking much harder.

I'm not going to get caught up in whether he actually takes the win or not.

I’m certain of one thing: if he doesn't take it this time, his shot at the title really should have been during that race in Turkey. It was a massive opportunity, and honestly, it was well within his reach.
He’s already managed to turn a good chunk of the Ferrari fans against him. I can only imagine what happens if they miss out on the titles again this year. The pressure is just going to crush him completely. In that scenario, all it takes is Charles Leclerc being fast during one of the early races next season, and it's game over.

neonfox65 said:He was right once; that move was a total wild card.

🙏🙏,this is exactly why being a forum regular matters.

mellowtiger83 said:🙏🙏,honestly, it’s posts like this that make being on this forum actually worth it!

Life is worth living 🙏🎉

darkmarlin16 said:It's worth living 🙏🎉

Go ahead and keep making fun of me, losers! neonfox65 is absolutely crushing it!
Whiting explained that the incident had no influence on the penalty that was given for the later tangle with Valtteri Bottas at the same corner.

“They were unconnected,” said Whiting. “The 'joker', as you put it, was cutting the chicane, not actually gaining a place, but staying in front by virtue of cutting the chicane. Which is an advantage of sorts.

“We told the teams that we would normally give the driver one free one, unless of course, let’s just say, he cut the chicane the first time and gained five seconds and kept it, then we wouldn’t let him have that one.

Can we just stop talking about Charlie and his endless excuses? 🤦
The guy is biased as hell. The stewards' decisions are inconsistent at best and totally questionable at worst, yet he always seems to have a mountain of justifications for why things happened the way they did...😁

Honestly, Charlie and the stewards are killing Formula 1 daily. Most of their calls have nothing to do with what actually happens on track; they’re just there to mess with the standings and spice up the show. 🙂
And they clearly care more about who caused the "mess" and—more importantly—who it was done to...
If Max had pulled the same move on anyone else besides a Mercedes driver, there wouldn't have been a penalty. Not because he didn't deserve it, but because Charlie and the stewards basically don't give a damn. 🙂

It feels like the system is rigged to favor whoever whines the loudest, rather than who's actually in the wrong...
Max's penalty definitely came from Mercedes crying about it, not because the officials actually wanted to hand it out...

I mean, look at the same race where Vettel had an unsafe release toward Sauber and absolutely nothing happened.
An unsafe release is a black-and-white call; you either did it or you didn't. No debate needed.
But since Sauber didn't run to them crying, Charlie and his crew played blind and—lo and behold—no penalty.
If Vettel had been released in that exact same manner toward a Mercedes driver, you can bet your life he would've been penalized before the lap even ended. ☕

stormybadger8 said:Honestly, just spare me Charlie and his endless explanations.🤦
The man is blatantly biased. The stewards' decisions are inconsistent at best and highly questionable at worst, yet he always seems to have an abundance of justifications for why things happened the way they did.😁

Essentially, Charlie and the officials are killing Formula 1 on a daily basis. Most of their decisions don't actually reflect what is happening on the track; they exist merely to manipulate the standings and spice up the show.🙂
They clearly prioritize who committed the error based on who the victim was...
If Max had caused a similar incident involving anyone other than a Mercedes-Benz driver, there wouldn't have been a penalty. Not because he didn't deserve one, but because Charlie and the stewards simply don't care about anything else.🙂

It seems the system operates on who complains the loudest rather than who is actually at fault.
Max’s penalty was almost certainly triggered by Mercedes whining, not because the officials would have penalized him regardless.

For instance, you have Sebastian Vettel being released unsafely toward a Sauber driver during the same race, and nothing happens.
An unsafe release is a binary thing—it either happened or it didn't—so there isn't much room for debate.
And since Sauber certainly didn't complain, Charlie and his crew played blind, and miraculously, no penalty was issued.
If Vettel had been released in that exact same manner toward a Mercedes-Benz driver, you can bet money he would have been penalized before that very lap even ended.☕

That is precisely the point: penalties are handed out arbitrarily and without any semblance of order.
Penalties should be applied equally to everyone, regardless of which team or driver is involved.

Obviously, penalties should be applied equally across the board, but they aren't...
And like I said, if they actually handed out the same rules for everyone, there wouldn't be any "show" left, right? 🙂

Because how else do you explain that absolute nonsense penalty Vettel got for Sainz? Sainz wasn't even damaged; he cruised straight into the next round without a scratch... even Sainz himself admitted he was fine and called the penalty stupid. 🤦
So, effectively, zero damage done, yet we still get hit with penalties...🙏

That penalty might actually make sense if they punished everyone for the same thing, but we all know that's not how this works...

Look at what happened in Canada—a tiny handful of drivers didn't just block Vettel on a fast lap; they practically had to slam on the brakes like idiots, abandon their laps, and dive into the pits...
But again, no harm done there because Vettel had already moved on to the next lap anyway, so no penalty was issued. 🙂

The real reason behind Vettel's penalty for Sainz:
Let's just squeeze the standings a bit to make the championship more "exciting"... plus, everyone loves a good race where the fast cars get stuck behind the slow ones at the start...

Officially, Charlie might try to come up with some wise-sounding excuse if asked, but honestly, you can't explain why one incident gets penalized while a much more obvious violation goes ignored.
It's just like how Charlie can't explain the insane logic behind why that Ferrari move at Monza wasn't flagged as an unsafe release. 🤦

Pathetic stuff from the FIA, just faking tension for the cameras...
Basically, I expect them to drop some random penalty on the Germans—specifically Hamilton—just to spice things up and make the FIA look "impartial." 🙂
Sure, maybe it'll be justified, but they haven't been handing them out to those guys until now. They might suddenly decide it's time for a penalty just because it makes for better TV.

If they slap Hamilton with a penalty, then it’ll be crystal clear that it’s all just a setup for the show...
If that happens, it's obvious everything is just being rigged to protect Mercedes.
Either way, it'll prove the FIA is totally pathetic when it comes to these penalties and how they hand them out...

Actually, the dumbest part of this whole mess isn't even the messing with the top of the standings...
The stupidity is how they constantly screw over the mid-field and back-markers. They talk all this big game about cost-cutting and keeping teams in Formula 1, but then they hammer these teams the hardest. 🙂
I mean, Nico Hulkenberg gets slapped with a massive, draconian penalty for a slight misjudgment during a start, while on the other hand, Bottas does the exact same thing—ruining the race for Williams—and doesn't face any real consequences. But hey, who cares about Williams, right? 🙂

Anyway, regarding Ferrari's legendary qualifying tactics at Monza...

If I remember correctly, they pulled the same stunt at Spa too, sending Vettel out first and then Kimi...
Since Vettel was the one who peeled out right behind Bottas and Hamilton (with Bottas basically tasked with giving Hamilton a tow...)

So, even there, Kimi wasn't given a specific job like Bottas had...
And honestly, his teammate could have definitely used Vettel's slipstream. If I recall, they sent Kimi out too late—there were quite a few cars between them during that first dry run—but Vettel was definitely the one leading the charge...

How or why they’d use the exact same pattern two races in a row is beyond me, especially since that "slipstream" proved to be a pretty effective weapon both times. 🤔

Usually, teams have a system where if drivers are roughly equal, they rotate who goes out first and who follows, flipping it every other race...

Teams with a clear No. 2, like Mercedes-Benz, obviously do the opposite, where Bottas always gets the worse strategy just to pull Hamilton along...

But I can't remember a single team like Ferrari that would pull a move where the driver who's supposed to be No. 1 gets stuck with a worse strategy two times in a row. 😵

stormybadger8 said:Regarding Ferrari's infamous qualifying tactics at the Italian Grand Prix...

If memory serves, they did something similar at Spa by sending Vettel out first, followed by Kimi...
Because Vettel was the one who exited immediately after Bottas and Hamilton (with Bottas tasked with creating a slipstream for Hamilton...)

So, Kimi wasn't given a specific task like Bottas was either...
And similarly, his teammate could have certainly utilized Vettel's slipstream; if I recall correctly, they sent Kimi out too late, leaving quite a gap between them during that initial dry run... but regardless, Vettel was definitely the first one out...

How and why they used the exact same pattern two races in a row isn't particularly clear, especially since "slipstreaming" proved to be such an effective weapon in both instances.🤔

Usually, teams follow a system where, if drivers are roughly equal, they alternate who goes out first and who follows in the next race...

Teams with a definitive No. 2, like Mercedes-Benz, obviously do the opposite, ensuring Bottas always takes the inferior strategy to pull Hamilton along...

However, I don't recall any team ever behaving like Ferrari, choosing a scheme twice in a row where the driver intended to be No. 1 ends up with the worse strategy twice.😵

You've got it wrong! Vettel should have had a Mercedes in front of him for the slipstream at Monza, but he was released onto the track too late and ended up too far back from the Mercedes.🙂

Essentially, Ferrari's tactic was sound in theory, just poorly executed and frankly stupid in practice. The idea was to slot Kimi ahead of the Mercedes because they assumed Vettel would naturally be faster anyway.

By screwing over Vettel—who needed to be in the slipstream of a Mercedes—they also screwed Kimi (or perhaps he just screwed himself), as he was about 3 seconds behind Vettel and likely didn't benefit from any slipstream at all!

In the end, it turned out great for Ferrari, except for the fact that the wrong driver took pole, and we all know how they reacted during the race and how Hamilton dealt with them.

In short, perhaps one of Hamilton's best drives ever.

mellowtiger83 said:You're getting it wrong! Vettel should've had that Mercedes-Benz slipstream right in front of him at Monza, but he was sent out way too late and ended up being too far back.🙂

Basically, Ferrari’s strategy was solid in theory, but the execution was just plain stupid. The whole idea was to slot Kimi ahead of the Mercedes-Benz, assuming Vettel would just pull ahead on pure pace anyway. They completely botched it.

They completely screwed Vettel by not letting him tuck into the Mercedes-Benz slipstream, and they messed up for Kimi too—or maybe he just blew it himself. He was about three seconds behind Vettel, so he didn't have any kind of slipstream, if he even had one at all!

Turns out everything worked out perfectly for Ferrari—it’s just that they had the wrong driver on pole. Once that happened, we all know how their race strategy fell apart and how Hamilton absolutely dismantled them!

So, what's the actual logic there? Why on earth is Kimi coming out behind Vettel again? They're pulling the exact same formation they used after Spa. Makes zero sense.
Why is Vettel chasing Mercedes' slipstream twice instead of just using his own car? What’s with all this overthinking and trying to reinvent the wheel? It's ridiculous. 🤷

Besides, wouldn't it be exactly the same if Kimi had gone out first, just chasing Lewis Hamilton's slipstream while Vettel chased Kimi? Honestly, what's even the difference?

I honestly don't get it. What kind of brilliant strategy is it to dump all the risk onto the driver fighting for the championship, while taking practically zero risk with the guy who should logically be the No. 2? You can easily manage the gap between Vettel and Kimi within the team, so why act like this?

Something very strange is definitely brewing here...
It would actually make sense if Vettel had tried to draft behind Kimi—you know, like how he managed to pull that off at Spa. But here’s the kicker: the formation at Spa was identical to this, yet Vettel still chose to peel out and try to catch Kimi on his own.
It’s a whole other story. Those clowns up front absolutely botched the positioning on track even worse than they did at Monza, so Kimi didn't get a damn thing from that slipstream. But honestly, it doesn't even matter in the end—Bottas spun out and basically ruined everyone's fast lap anyway.

Honestly, that might have been one of Hamilton's best drives ever.

Seriously, what makes this Hamilton's best drive ever? 🤦
Holy crap, do you even realize that with statements like those, you sound like the biggest pathological liar ever? 🤣

What am I even doing trying to hype up Vettel jumping 18 spots? Let's be real—the only actual competition out there right now is Ferrari and Red Bull Racing.
The FIA basically cleared their own deck, Max essentially tanked his own chances, and when you actually look at the facts, the only real challenge he faced was Ricciardo... which was a decent little surge, sure, but nothing spectacular.
Lujo didn't exactly put on a show, but he drove a steady, solid race and capitalized perfectly on the gift he was handed.

Lujo had a decent race, but let's be real—it wasn't anything special.
He got handed a massive pile of stuff as a gift, and honestly? He played it perfectly. He used every single bit of it to turn a profit. Smart move.
Look, let's be real—he didn't pull off anything special there. Honestly, I wouldn't even put that drive in his top 20, let alone call it one of the best 🤦
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1. He got incredibly lucky he wasn't the one spinning during that contact with Sebastian Vettel, because usually, the guy on the outside is the one who gets screwed 🙂
.
Right after that, it was pretty obvious Hamilton would take the win as long as he avoided a collision or a mechanical failure...
The reality was that Kimi definitely wasn't going to hold him up, and even if he could have kept him behind on track, we all know Ferrari would have completely botched the strategy through the pits, letting Mercedes shine,
which is exactly what we ended up seeing during the race itself...

2. Mercedes played the strategy perfectly regarding Kimi's pit stop and their later move to undercut him with Valtteri Bottas. On top of that, Ferrari messed up by pushing Kimi to hammer out too many fast laps,
and then you had Kimi struggling behind Bottas, which ultimately left him with totally destroyed tires...

After all that, Hamilton basically had a walk in the park just cruising past Kimi and bringing the race home
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darkmarlin16 said:🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤦

Go to 2:12 and tell me what Christian Horner said to Max over the radio...☕

And here's the transcript for you...

Verstappen suggested that cutting the first turn after Bottas made a half-hearted move earlier in the race was a factor in giving him the penalty. However, Whiting says that the two incidents were not related.

“They were unconnected,” said Whiting. “The "joker" as you put it was cutting the chicane, not actually gaining a place, but staying in front by virtue of cutting the chicane. Which is an advantage of sorts.

“We told the teams that we would normally give the driver one free one, unless of course let’s just say he cut the chicane the first time and gained five seconds and kept it, then we wouldn’t let him have that one. But this one he just stayed in front of Bottas. And you could in theory do that every lap and say I didn’t gain a position, but you stayed in front because you cut the chicane.”

https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/2...racing-comment

mellowtiger83 said:🙏🙏,this is exactly why being part of this forum is worth it!

Just read the post above ☕

You all look ridiculous—total amateurs...👋

neonfox65 said:Read the post above.☕

You guys look ridiculous and uninformed.👋

Fine, I'll stick to your mantra again. The officials have made their call, so what else is there to debate?👋

And let's be real—if Max keeps this up, he's going to rack up more and more penalties. Just wait until things get messy with Christian Horner and Marko. It could easily turn into a Kvyat situation.☕

mellowtiger83 said:You’re calling it wrong! — Sebastian Vettel really should have had that Mercedes-Benz slipstream to work with at Monza, but he was sent out onto the track way too late and just couldn't close the gap.🙂

Basically, Ferrari’s strategy was actually solid—it was just executed poorly and, frankly, a bit clumsily! The whole idea was to slot Kimi ahead of the Mercedes-Benz, since they were banking on Vettel being faster by default anyway.

They really messed up for Sebastian Vettel—he should've been right in the slipstream of that Mercedes-Benz. And they did Kimi dirty too, or maybe he just blew it himself—he was hanging back about 3 seconds behind Vettel, so he wasn't getting any kind of tow at all, if he even had one!

In the end, things turned out great for Ferrari—it was just a shame they had the wrong driver on pole, because we all know how they react during the race once that happens... and then, well, Hamilton just cleaned them up!

Honestly, that might have been one of Lewis Hamilton's best drives ever—just incredible to watch!

Sebastian Vettel just isn't cut out for this kind of thing—honestly, Lewis proved once again why he’s been the absolute king of the sport over the last decade. Back when Kimi was in his prime, he was maybe the only one who could actually push him to the limit!

Nicholas Newman2 said:Back at it again, sticking to your mantra... The refs made their call, and honestly, I don't see much point in arguing about it anymore...👋

Look, there's really nothing left to debate here—the rules are crystal clear. It turns out some folks just weren't up to speed on them, so they were basically just sitting there laughing at themselves... 🙂

I already laid out my reasoning regarding that contact between Max and Bottas—still waiting for someone to actually respond... honestly, it feels like nobody knows how to handle it when I'm clearly right.

If Max keeps this up, he’s going to be racking up penalties left and right—it's almost inevitable at this rate. And man, when that finally happens, Horner and Marko are going to have his head... honestly, it could end up being a total Kvyat situation.☕

We've heard this story a thousand times already—just more empty talk... once Honda nails that engine, Max is cruising straight to the title.

stormybadger8 said:So, is there actually any logic behind Kimi coming out behind Vettel? And honestly, seeing them exit in that exact same formation again right after Spa... it just doesn't add up.
Why on earth did Vettel spend twice chasing the slipstream of that Mercedes instead of just utilizing his own car? It’s pure overthinking. All this tactical maneuvering and trying to reinvent the wheel when the solution is already staring them in the face. Just plain nonsensical. 🤷

Besides that, wouldn't the outcome be exactly the same if Kimi had gone out first, chasing Lewis Hamilton's slipstream, while Sebastian Vettel chased Kimi? What is actually the difference there?

I simply cannot grasp the logic here. It seems fundamentally flawed to shift all the risk onto the driver fighting for the championship, while essentially offering zero resistance to the driver who should, by any rational standard, be acting as the No. 2. You can easily manage the gap between Vettel and Kimi within the team itself. To do otherwise is just poor strategy.

Something very strange is definitely brewing here...
It would actually make some semblance of sense if Vettel had tried to tuck in behind Kimi to catch a slipstream—you know, like that move he pulled back at Spa. But that’s not even the issue here. The real problem is that the formation was identical to what we saw at Spa, yet Vettel still chose to pull out and attempt a pass on Kimi.
It’s a different story entirely when you consider how those clowns up top absolutely botched the track positioning, even worse than what happened at Monza. Kimi didn't get a single inch of slipstream out of it. But honestly, in the end, it hardly matters since Bottas spun out and basically ruined everyone's opening flying lap anyway.

I fail to see the logic. On what grounds can anyone claim that was the finest drive of Lewis Hamilton's entire career? 🤦
Good grief, are you actually aware that with statements like those, you come across as the biggest mythomaniac to ever exist? 🤣

What’s the point in me sitting here trying to hype up Sebastian Vettel’s charge through eighteen positions? It feels a bit redundant when you consider that the only actual heavy hitters on the grid right now are Ferrari and Red Bull Racing.
The FIA basically removed themselves from the equation, Max essentially committed career suicide, and when you actually look at the facts, his only real challenge was facing Ricciardo... that was a decent little breakthrough, I suppose, but nothing spectacular.
Lujo didn't exactly put on a spectacular show, either. He just drove a composed, solid race and capitalized perfectly on the golden opportunity that was handed to him on a silver platter.

Lujo had a decent race, I suppose, though nothing particularly remarkable to report.
He was handed a massive pile of assets, and honestly, he played his hand perfectly. He leveraged every single one of those gifts to turn a serious profit. It was smooth, calculated, and undeniably effective.
Not that he pulled off anything particularly special or groundbreaking there... I honestly don't see that drive even breaking into his top 20, let alone being his best. 🤦

He had some damn luck that he didn't spin out during that contact with Sebastian Vettel. In situations like that, it’s usually the guy on the outside who ends up getting screwed. 🙂

And immediately following that, it became patently obvious that Hamilton would take the win, provided he didn't collide with someone or suffer some sort of mechanical failure.
The reality was always going to be that Kimi wouldn't be able to hold him back, and even if he somehow managed to keep him behind on track, we all know Ferrari would have just botched the strategy through the pit stops, leaving the door wide open for Mercedes-Benz to shine.
So, what was it that we actually witnessed during the race itself?

Mercedes-Benz executed their strategy flawlessly regarding Kimi’s pit window and that subsequent hesitation with Bottas. Meanwhile, Ferrari completely botched things by forcing Kimi to grind out those excessive sequences of fast laps.
And then later on, you have Kimi just trailing behind Bottas, and by the end of it, Kimi's tires were absolutely shredded.

After everything that went down, Lewis Hamilton basically had an incredibly easy job beating Kimi and cruising through the rest of the race to the finish line...

Maybe he could have tried passing both Ferraris on the outside? Not that they weren't arguably the faster cars all weekend long. Plus, he drove an absolutely flawless race, staying right on the limit for almost the entire duration until he finally moved past Kimi.
+ and I'm not the only one saying this!! + even in the Ferrari garage, after the fans had been giving him grief both before and after the race🙂

mellowtiger83 said:Basically, this might be one of Lewis Hamilton's best drives ever.

It wasn't anything special. If Bottas hadn't gotten in Kimi's way, Hamilton would have finished second.☕

James Roberts87 said:Nothing special there—if Bottas hadn't boxed Kimi, I really think Lewis Hamilton would've snagged second place.☕

Lol, if they had just called Lewis Hamilton into the pits a little sooner, he would've jumped right ahead of Kimi Räikkönen—then the whole debate would have ended even faster! Plus, let's be real, Kimi wouldn't have stood a chance on those tires anyway.

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