F1 Italian GP - Monza (Sept 2, 2018)

crimsonhawk23 said:By posting that, whether you meant to or not, you basically just went on record confirming that Hamilton is a better driver than Vettel. 🙂 Look, it’s fine, we all know he’s the better one. 👍

It’s just how it goes, honestly—there’s really no point in overanalyzing it.

Look, I don't care what anyone says, it’s just an objective fact at this point: Lewis Hamilton is hands down better than Sebastian Vettel.☕

stormybadger8 said:I'm honestly not seeing where you're getting that Sergio Perez was pushing Kevin Magnussen—I guess I just don't see it. 🤦

👉👉 I guess you don't see any pushing happening here either? Or you think Kevin Magnussen is the one being scapegoated? 🙂

stormybadger8 said:I guess Kevin Magnussen probably deserved a penalty like that... maybe just to keep things even.

The way he’s making his comeback—given the current rules, I guess there isn't really anything controversial about it.

stormybadger8 said:If anyone deserved a penalty there, I guess it was Kevin Magnussen—he really shouldn't have been looking for any kind of opening at that moment, let alone trying to squeeze past Sergio Perez.

Exactly. Honestly—they should have just turned around and headed home. 🐔

stormybadger8 said:That’s quite literally an unsafe release—I guess. 😁

Are you saying the same thing as that guy ahead of Marcus Ericsson—the one talking about Vettel's situation? 🕺

stormybadger8 said:Lewis Hamilton's team radio in the exact same scenario—is it because I'm Black? Are you insane? Are you fucking insane!!!
Fernando Alonso's team radio in the same situation—break his gearbox now! Now!!!ters tell him it is safer for him to start behind Max ☕

Aside from the fact that these are nonsense, I’m curious if there’s ever even one day in a year where you don't mention Alonso?

So, I was just digging through some old racing news, and man, looking back at how things used to go down really hits different. Remember that absolute chaos at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway back on September 2nd, 2018? It’s wild to think about how much the landscape has shifted since then. You had Sebastian Vettel and Kimi Raikkonen basically fighting for every inch of asphalt, and honestly, the way Ford managed things on Saturday really set the stage for all the drama that followed. It’s one of those races that stays burned into your brain because of how intense the battle was between the heavy hitters. You’ve got Kimi Raikkonen out there being an absolute beast, and then you have the whole dynamic where the American first qualified in front of him and then just refused to let him pass during the Grand Prix itself at the start—I mean, talk about pure grit. That kind of defensive driving is what makes this sport so addicting, even if it drives us crazy watching from our couches. And don't even get me started on the technical side of things or how certain teams handled their strategy compared to how we see them running today. Everything feels so much more calculated now, whereas back then, it felt like a high-speed brawl sometimes. It's funny, I was talking to mellowtiger83 about this the other day, and we were both laughing about how much people underestimated the sheer speed of those cars during that era. People always forget how much raw power was actually on display before everything became so hyper-optimized. Anyway, just a random thought while I was falling down a rabbit hole of vintage race stats. Life is weird.

So, Sebastian Vettel is absolutely fuming about how Kimi Raikkonen handled himself during the Grand Prix, especially since the American first qualified right in front of him and then just refused to let him pass during the Grand Prix itself at the start. It’s honestly kind of ridiculous if you think about it, just total chaos out there on the track.

I’ve gotta say, I am seriously not feeling how Ford managed things on Saturday. It was just... off.

Honestly, I’m sitting here thinking it really should’ve been me standing there on that pole position instead.

Look, it’s pretty obvious to me at this point—I basically have to go out there and battle three different cars, and that includes my own teammate.

🤣

Poor guy—it feels like everyone’s teamed up against him, I guess. 🤕

crimsonhawk23 said:Poor guy; it feels like everyone is ganging up on him 🤕

He was just stating facts. I still haven't figured out why Kimi Raikkonen would bother having any kind of beef with him, especially since it's been two days since the race ended.

It’s hardly Kimi Raikkonen's fault that Sebastian Vettel lost his cool—acting like some hothead who can't handle a bit of pressure during those first two turns. 🤨

They probably could have cruised to a P1 and P2 finish if Sebastian Vettel hadn't messed up against Lewis Hamilton.

I suppose I'll say it for the third time here: since the 2017 USA race—that's 28 races, give or take— in the very first lap due to his own mistakes, he's already lost his front wing five times. It isn't Kimi Raikkonen's fault when he acts foolishly and then tries to complain about it later. As if... "I should have been on pole" 😭😭 If you want to beat Kimi Raikkonen, maybe just drive faster. wtf.

crimsonhawk23 said:Aside from the fact that this is all total nonsense, I’ve gotta ask—does there happen to be even one single day out of the year where you don't bring up Fernando Alonso?

Honestly, same question here.🕺

Regarding that first clip, Magnussen is largely to blame, whereas for the second one, it’s definitely Alonso.
I can't really get into the specifics right now since I'm away from my computer and typing on a phone is just too much effort.

mellowtiger83 said:Regarding the first clip, I'd say Magnussen is mostly at fault—as for the second one, it's probably Alonso.
I can't really get into the details right now since I'm away from my computer, and typing this out on my phone is just too much effort.

So, we're blaming Alonso because Magnussen squeezed him off by about one and a half car widths? 🤣



Fine, let's say Nando (😵) is to blame—but then why no penalty? It seems like nobody has been penalized all season for failing to leave a full car width, except maybe Max, who left Bottas barely any room (if that, actually), yet Bottas wasn't even an inch off the track. 😬

So, Alonso stays within the lines at Silverstone while Magnussen is likely wide (🤔), but Bottas gets called out because Max didn't give him enough space? 🤔🤔

crimsonhawk23 said:Is Alonso really at fault just because Magnussen pushed him off the track by about a car and a half? 🤣



Fine, let Nando take the fall if that's how we're playing it.😵So, why hasn't there been a penalty? It seems like nobody has been penalized this season for failing to leave at least one car's width of space. Except for Max, of course, who left Bottas exactly one car width—if you can even call it that, since he actually gave him more—and yet Bottas didn't go a single millimeter off the track. It’s quite curious. 😬

At that specific moment, Magnussen had already overtaken Alonso. He was sitting about a foot ahead on the inside line, and because of how that corner is shaped, he couldn't push any further right without completely killing his car's stability. Alonso had a much clearer view of Magnussen since he was trailing just slightly behind, yet he made this desperate, forced attempt to squeeze through the turn. It was a bad call. He should have known Magnussen would have to drift wide; there was simply no other way to take it given that both drivers were pushed right to the edge of their traction limits.

Regarding the penalty handed down to Max, I find it rather excessive. He left just enough room, really. As far as I am aware, Max was penalized for both cutting the chicane and that incident where he pushed Bottas. In my view, this whole penalty is quite foolish.

In my view, racing incidents shouldn't be subject to penalties.

crimsonhawk23 said:It isn't Kimi's fault that Sebastian lost his cool and felt the need to dive into those first two corners like some kind of amateur acting tough.

They could have easily secured P1 and P2 if Seb hadn't completely botched it against Lewis.

Let me state this for the third time in this thread: since Canada 2017, which means over 28 races, in the very first lap Vettel has managed to destroy his own front wing through sheer incompetence in five separate races. It isn't Kimi's fault when this guy acts foolishly and then spends the rest of the time complaining and playing the victim. That whole... "I should have been on pole" bit is ridiculous. 🙄 Just drive faster than Kimi and you'll get it, wtf.

The second chicane was just pure stupidity from Vettel; it was as if he had no idea whether Kimi was going to let him through or not 🙂. After the first chicane, the outcome should have been obvious.
The real issue lies with that first chicane and Kimi blocking wheels during a direct duel with a teammate who is fighting for the championship!

It seems like the folks at Ferrari didn't even bother communicating the start strategy to their drivers, though I find their overall policy regarding Kimi quite baffling.

Returning to the footage of Alonso and Magnussen at Silverstone, I've just noticed Magnussen's nasty understeer. It supports my theory that he simply couldn't move Alonso further right at that moment. I'd love to see an onboard from Magnussen's car if one exists; I am fairly certain he was busy correcting massive understeer right then.

I took a closer look at that footage of Bottas versus Max, and honestly, Max getting penalized was 100% warranted—maybe even more than they gave him. Here is why.

The breakdown is simple: Bottas was holding his line. He occupied his position on the left side, and then Max, coming from his own lane, swerved left toward Bottas until he made contact with the tire. I should clarify that Bottas was driving his intended line at that exact moment; it was Max who veered out of his path and steered into him just to try and grab a better angle for the chicane.

This isn't some debate about whether Max failed to leave enough room for Bottas. Bottas had already established his position. This was about Max making a rather reckless move to the left, continuing that movement right up until he slammed into Bottas's car.

The penalty was absolutely justified.

Someone will inevitably tell you otherwise.

I have attempted the same approach, yet it proves futile.

mellowtiger83, what if that contact happened between Vettel and Hamilton while they were fighting for the win on the final lap? Would they have penalized Vettel and stripped him of the victory right there in the middle of the US Grand Prix in front of all those fans? Or better yet—imagine if that happened during the season finale where the championship was on the line, and then the stewards stepped in... you see how absurd that is. This is exactly why I’ve always said the officials shouldn't be meddling in pure racing duels. If someone is actually playing dirty, sure, but Max didn't do that—Bottas just kept pushing and caught up to him.

Alright, listen up, you Vettel fanboys. Is this guy ever actually held responsible for anything?

Isn't it a little embarrassing how you blame absolutely everything else? You point fingers at the pit wall, the pit crew, the tires, the weather, bad luck, the car setup, the strategy, the other drivers, even his own teammates. It’s always someone else's fault.

Are we ever going to see you admit that your golden boy actually screwed something up on his own?

It’s great to see this kind of activity on one of our race threads. Last time we saw a crowd like this was during the US Grand Prix 2014!🙂

neonfox65 said:mellowtiger83, imagine if that contact happened between Vettel and Hamilton while they were fighting for the win on the final lap. Would they have penalized Vettel and stripped him of his victory right there in the middle of the US Grand Prix in front of all those fans? Or even better, what if it happened during the season finale where the championship was on the line, and then the stewards stepped in? You see how absurd this is. This is why I've always said the stewards shouldn't interfere in racing duels. Unless someone is actually driving dirty—and Max didn't do that, whereas Bottas kept pushing and caught up to him.

Hold on a second. Hasn't your whole argument lately been that whenever anyone attacks Verstappen, the stewards are just looking for an excuse to penalize him? So what changed? Now that the stewards actually penalized Max, suddenly he must be in the wrong? Or is it the other way around?

All of Ferrari's headaches stem from one fundamental fact: their number one driver isn't consistently faster than his teammate. Once Vettel fails to outqualify Raikkonen, the dominoes start falling. Then you get into the whole mess of how to swap them, how to nail a start, and so on. When Hamilton leaves Bottas sitting half a second in the dust, it’s only natural that Bottas, acting as the number two, ends up just being an obstacle on track. At Ferrari, the number two is far too often quicker than the number one, which makes executing any coherent plan nearly impossible...
I mentioned before this race that Kimi has generally been the better driver compared to Vettel this year, and after today, that gap feels even more obvious. He might struggle in qualifying—Italy was one of those rare exceptions where he actually stood a chance—but in terms of race pace, he’s frequently superior. More importantly, he avoids the kind of boneheaded mistakes Vettel tends to make. Right now, Kimi is trailing Vettel by about 60 points, but we also know that unlike Vettel, Kimi has suffered three DNFs that were entirely out of his control. If it weren't for those, he'd likely be the natural number one by now...
The current dynamic is just unnatural. It's probably too late for Kimi to claim the top spot because the points deficit is simply too massive to close. So, Vettel has to be the lead driver. But since Kimi is often the faster one, they have to constantly pivot and fix things, creating a mountain of complications. It seems like what they did in Belgium—basically sabotaging Kimi's qualifying chances—was the perfect recipe for disaster...

Richard Walker38 said:Listen, you Vettel fanboys, has that guy ever actually been at fault for anything?

Isn't it a little embarrassing to blame everything else—the pit wall, the crew, the tires, the weather, luck, the setup, the strategy, other drivers, or even his own teammates?

Are we ever going to see anyone admit that their golden boy actually messed something up on his own?

I only see one fanboy here who always finds an excuse for Vettel. And that person just happens to be a Ferrari hater, so blaming the team is the perfect way to vent...
Most of the actual Ferrari fans here (and elsewhere, really) have pretty much conceded that Vettel is a major part of the problem right now...

crimsonhawk23 said:👉👉 So, you’re telling me you don't see any pushing happening here either? Or do you think Magnussen is just the scapegoat here?

I mean, why would I even see that?
Tom should’ve had his license revoked ages ago. Old, slow fossils like him have no business being on the track. 😬
Kevin Magnussen deserves an award just for putting up with those rich kids. He’s a hero, not some villain. 🙏🤣

crimsonhawk23 said:The way he's getting back on track doesn't actually break any of the current rules. Nothing controversial there.

Who said there wasn't? 🙂
The rule basically says you can rejoin the track as long as you do it safely and don't get in anyone's way. So, I guess that means just pull over to the side, check left and right, pop on your blinker, and then head back out. Real smooth. 😬

crimsonhawk23 said:Exactly! He should’ve just turned around and gone home. 🐔

Of course it is...
If he can't handle the track, and even the local kids don't give a damn about him, he should just pack it up and head home. He’s got zero impact and nobody's watching anyway.

crimsonhawk23 said:Are you saying the same thing as that Vettel guy ahead of Ericsson? 🕺

Yeah, exactly. Both of them are getting slapped with the same penalty. ☕

crimsonhawk23 said:Aside from the fact that this is all nonsense, I'm wondering if you ever have even one day out of the year where you don't bring up Alonso?

Obviously, I usually mention Alonso, but my "A" key has been acting up on my keyboard lately, so it turns out I'm just stuck mentioning him. 🙂

crimsonhawk23 said:It’s not Kimi's fault Sebastian lost his patience and decided he absolutely had to dive into the first two corners, acting like some hothead who flips out at the slightest breeze. 🤨

And why do you think Luxury pushed just as hard right at the start? 🙂

Ferrari and Mercedes showed up this season looking incredibly fast—and almost identical when it comes to raw pace...
That's exactly why, with aero like this, it's damn near impossible to overtake another Bear/Ferrari car unless it happens right at the start or through an undercut/overcut in the pits...

The only real way through would be some weird tire degradation anomaly or a setup tuned specifically for insane straight-line top speed, but even then, there are zero guarantees it'll be easy...
Because even if they're on fresher rubber during a certain phase and running a second faster per lap, that still doesn't guarantee an overtake, let alone an easy one...

Basically, this race should be deeply, deeply concerning for Ferrari.
Not because they blew everything they had left—that's nothing new for them 🤦
but because Mercedes basically slapped them in the face with a development jump in just one week that looks like something usually achieved over an entire year...

Because:
1. Out of nowhere, Mercedes completely solved their mystery tire issues and following problems at Monza. Luxury spent the entire first and second stints driving within a second of Kimi, and his tires didn't go to hell.
Before this race, that wasn't even remotely possible. In fact, the Mercedes was the car that struggled most with tire wear when following someone within a second... yet somehow, suddenly, there's no issue here.

On the flip side, Kimi killed his tires in just 7-8 laps behind Bottas, and lo and behold, Ferrari suddenly has massive tire problems while the Bear has none whatsoever....

2. Mercedes had a faster car during the race, running a full second faster in full power mode, and God knows how or why. 🤷
That hasn't really been the case lately either; Ferrari was actually the one with the better power mode than Mercedes just a day ago, only for everything to flip upside down in a mere 24 hours...

No, the Bear doesn't have a car capable of running a full second faster than Ferrari for the whole race, but they have a PU that can handle a lap or two in that full power mode to grab a gap at the start, nail a lightning-fast in/out lap, or use it to pass/defend... and that's about it.
Where did they screw up, and what kind of trick did Ferrari play to lose that power mode advantage?
Maybe they didn't even lose it; maybe the Mercedes's was just suddenly that much stronger...
Whatever the case, it has to be seriously worrying for Ferrari...

Singapore shouldn't be an issue; they're strong there regardless, and even if they aren't, it's Vettel's track. Even in a significantly faster car, Luxury won't be able to touch him. But anything after that could get problematic if this gap in power mode and tire management keeps repeating in future races...