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Top Catholic discussion thread

Started by Mark Foster · · 👁 9 views · 40 replies

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Participants Mark FosterDaniel Ward87Brenda Cook4feralpilot0rowdyhawk10steelskipper5Susan Price30Nicholas KingJason Clark7silentridge8silverviper3Anthony Perez9Nicole James
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#21 ·
It’s absurd how certain "special interest groups" have their own dedicated PDF manuals—just a random example, but you get the point regarding these thematic files. I assume these aren't meant to be used to convince people of their supposed importance, yet we see endless debates over identical problems and solutions as if we were electing a Pope on Reddit.

I could not agree more.🙂🙂

But what I really want to understand is the logic behind why, for instance, the thread about Jehovah's Witnesses was separated from other similar groups and granted top-tier status. It isn't that I have an issue with top-tier threads—quite the contrary—but the admin's argument regarding potential issues with opening a top-tier Catholicism thread simply doesn't hold water when you look at the precedent set by the Jehovah's Witness thread.

That leads directly to the argument concerning the official (or, if we're being politically correct, predominantly) religious group within any given society.

If one specific dominant religious group (Jehovah's Witnesses) is singled out from all other similar groups just because they happen to be the most numerous, then if we apply that exact same logic and guideline, where exactly is the issue?
Brenda Cook4 Brenda Cook4 Regular
373 messages
joined Sep 2010
#22 ·
Just wanted to back up what Daniel Ward87 mentioned—we’re currently hashing out some potentially larger changes, so please bear with us.
In the meantime, the Catholic community is more than welcome to start their own discussion. It’s a bit like how that one user started the “Ask an Orthodox Theologian” thread (which, as Uranija pointed out), which they’ve been managing all on their own quite successfully.
Daniel Ward87 Daniel Ward87 Active Member
195 messages
joined May 2023
#23 ·
Nicholas King said:OT: I honestly don't get how the admins managed to turn such a relatively simple situation into this massive, drawn-out debate.

If I were in their shoes and couldn't wrap my head around something, I’d be handing in my resignation immediately—it would be the only logical move.

Like I mentioned before, and Brenda Cook4 backed me up on, we're working on some bigger shifts regarding the religion section than just "why doesn't this person have their own thread," so please bear with us. I truly believe that once we nail down the details, everyone's going to be much happier because there will finally be room for topics that go way beyond just "Catholicism."
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#24 ·
I believe that once we hammer out the details, many people will be pleased. It will provide a solid foundation for exploring topics far beyond just "Catholicism."


In the sense that—if you're referring to my previous post regarding "Catholicism" being synonymous with the faith itself—
it won't be treated as a distinct branch of science separate from other Christian denominations that might warrant their own dedicated space. Is that what you're getting at?

If that's your point, could you please explain the reasoning behind it?

Then again, by denying that there is an official state religion in America, you've already made quite a statement...
Daniel Ward87 Daniel Ward87 Active Member
195 messages
joined May 2023
#25 ·
Susan Price30 said:So, when you say "Catholicism"—referring back to my point above—you're talking about the actual Latin root, *catholicismus*.
So, you're saying they aren't going to recognize Nauks as being fundamentally different from other Christian denominations that would actually deserve their own space? Is that what you're getting at with what's being suggested here?

If that's how you feel, just say so—can you walk me through your reasoning?

Man, by denying that there’s even such a thing as a "state religion" in America, you basically just admitted how much you're missing the point.

Nah, there won't be some standalone PDF dedicated solely to Catholicism or whatever you want to call it.

I’ve already laid out my reasons for this more than once, so I’m not going to get into the weeds again. Just because most people here identify as Catholic doesn't mean Reddit needs a dedicated sub ever focused solely on that. This isn't some national American forum owned by the government; it’s a private site owned by an individual who clearly doesn't want it to go in that direction.

We're currently brainstorming how to structure that PDF for what we're calling a more "multi-faith" discussion—moving beyond just Christianity to cover all religions. I can't dive into the specifics just yet since the wheels are still turning, and I don't want to get ahead of ourselves before a final decision is made.

In that sense, Christianity—or Catholicism, or whatever you want to call it—isn't going to get any special treatment compared to any other religion. The whole point of this Reddit is to make sure everyone gets treated exactly the same.

Susan Price30 said:I'm ready to get to work. Send over the content you need me to rewrite.
Man, by denying that there’s even such a thing as a "state religion" in America, you’ve basically said everything that needs to be said.

What was I even saying? Look, I’m not denying that most Americans are Catholic, but that doesn't mean the Church and the government should be joined at the hip.
Jason Clark7 Jason Clark7 Member
33 messages
joined Nov 2012
#26 ·
Daniel Ward87 said:...

This site isn't an American forum in the sense that it belongs to the United States; rather, it is the private property of a specific individual who simply does not wish for it to be anything else.

...

It should have been made clear here, as it has been in many other places, that there is no point in engaging in lengthy or broad debates regarding logical structures...🤦

One ought to plainly inform the users that things will proceed exactly as the owner dictates, and everything else is merely a matter of circumstance...😍
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#27 ·
Daniel Ward87 said:No, there won't be a specific sub-forum dedicated exclusively to Catholicism or whatever you want to call it.

We’ve already laid out the reasons for this so many times that I won't even get into it again. Just because most believers identify as Catholic—making them the majority in that sense—doesn't mean Reddit needs a specialized section just for them. This isn't an American national forum owned by the state; it's the private property of an individual who has decided they don't want it that way.

Right now, we are discussing how to structure a sub-forum that would cater to "more religious" discussions than what we currently have, but that would apply to any faith, not just Christianity. I can't share more details yet since we're still in talks and I don't want to speak before a final decision is made.

In that regard, Christianity—or Catholicism, or whatever—won't receive any special treatment compared to other religions, because the core principle of this site is that everyone gets equal treatment.

That's exactly what I was thinking, and it's been stated here many times before, among other places like the PZK.

The important thing is that Tarot, fortune telling, or magic has several sub-sub-forums, or the almost entirely inactive Spiritualist section has its own entire sub-forum after they requested to be split from the main site, yet American Catholics have nothing like that in the Religion sub-forum.🙂

Besides, if you look at just the first two pages of that sub-forum, about 80% or more of the threads deal with Catholic questions. Without that, what would the sub-forum even narrow down to? Maybe that counts as "special treatment" for Catholics too—the fact that the discussion mostly revolves around that and rarely strays far? And logically, that's what most people want to talk about anyway.

What did I say? I'm not denying that there is a Catholic majority in America, but I am not denying the separation of Church and State.

For example, like many of the others who moderate this site, I don't belong to that majority.🤷 That's not the primary point of this thread, but maybe it is actually relevant when you consider that the only Christian moderator who has been handling the religious sub-forum since the beginning stepped down from moderation very quickly due to intense pressure and the politics involved. And as far as we know, a Catholic moderator has never even been on the Religion sub-forum... and the fact that none of that is happening is no coincidence.
Daniel Ward87 Daniel Ward87 Active Member
195 messages
joined May 2023
#28 ·
Susan Price30 said:That’s what I was thinking too, and it’s been argued here for ages, among other places like the local parish council.

The issue is that tarot, fortune telling, or magic stuff gets its own little sub-sections, or even the almost dead Spiritualist section has its own whole area, yet the American Catholic community doesn't have one on the Religion sub-forum.🙂

Besides, if you look at just the first couple pages of that sub-forum, about 80% or more of the topics are centered on Catholic questions. Without those, what would that sub-forum even be? Maybe that counts as "special treatment" for Catholics too—that most discussions stay focused on that and don't wander off much? And logically, most people here just want to talk about that anyway.


I'll try explaining this one last time.

Even if we were living in Vatican City where the vast majority identify as Catholic, I bet the owner and the admins of Reddit would stick to their guns. It doesn't matter where you are or who makes up the majority around you; the core rule of Reddit is that everyone plays by the same set of rules.

Honestly, I'm not sure how else to break this down so it finally clicks for you.
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#29 ·
Daniel Ward87 said:
I will attempt this one last time.

Even if we happened to be living in Vatican City, where most people also identify as Catholic, I suspect the owner and administration of Reddit would maintain their current stance. In other words, regardless of your location or who makes up the majority around you, the fundamental principle of Reddit remains: equal rules for everyone.


I provided examples above regarding the Spirituality PDF or that subforum dedicated to alternative beliefs, which was split into several specific and entirely separate sub-subforums. How then do you explain that?
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#30 ·
I honestly don't know how else to break this down so it finally clicks for you.

Fine, whatever... I'm done 😁

Thanks for the effort and for explaining it.

X
steelskipper5 steelskipper5 Active Member
176 messages
joined Feb 2010
#31 ·
Susan Price30 said:calling it an official religion, a state religion, or—in certain countries—more commonly referred to as the official Church is a totally legitimate way to put it. And honestly, it doesn't even have to imply a theocracy (like, the United Kingdom has a state religion and isn't a theocracy, LOL).

Yeah, well, the United Kingdom has a state religion and it's definitely not exactly a secular nation. The head of state is also the head of the state church at the same time—so, I mean, that situation is completely incomparable to how things work in America.
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#32 ·
steelskipper5 said:The United Kingdom maintains an official state religion, so it isn't exactly a secular nation. Since the Head of State also serves as the head of the state church, you really can't compare that setup to how things work here in America.

Perhaps the most striking difference is that America isn't quite as secular as the UK when it comes to separating church and state. In practice, the American Catholic religious community holds such immense sway over our political life and the national establishment that they essentially function as a state religion—unlike the dominant Protestant nations.

I suspect the term "state religion" can be interpreted in several ways—ranging from the absolute models seen in Islamic theocracies to the Lutheran systems in Scandinavia, where the faith holds official status on paper but exerts almost zero actual influence on political life.
silentridge8 silentridge8 Active Member
231 messages
joined Jun 2007
#33 ·
Daniel Ward87 said:
I'll try explaining this one last time.

Even if we happened to be living in Vatican City, where most people identify as Catholic, I suspect the owner and the admin team here would maintain their current stance. It doesn't matter where you are or what the majority thinks; the fundamental rule of Reddit remains— equal rules for everyone.

I honestly don't know how else to frame this so it finally clicks for you.

Regarding that bolded part: "equal rules for everyone" doesn't mean every little subgroup can claim they deserve "equal rights." If we actually went down that road, we'd end up with a mess similar to the legal situation in the United Kingdom, where certain courts were granted a status secondary to British courts. 🤦

The issue is that most people who call themselves cultural Christians have no idea about actual Christian doctrine; they barely know anything about Catholicism. Most debates just boil down to "has the Church fallen to Satan?" I’m genuinely interested in cleaning up the top-tier topics regarding Christianity or other solutions, because right now, Catholic doctrine is buried at the bottom of a PDF list of religions. When Catholic users push back, it just makes it look like they're demanding special privileges at everyone else's expense.
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#34 ·
silentridge8 said:Given that highlighted part—"equal conditions for everyone"—it doesn't mean any specific group can claim "equal rights" whenever they feel like it. If we let that happen, we'll end up with a situation similar to what happened in the United Kingdom, where summary courts were granted legal status alongside British courts.🤦

(Perditicee !! 🙂, I've missed you 😘)

Only one thing comes to mind: in what exact way would opening a major thread about Catholicism (on top of what's already there) or a dedicated sub-forum actually threaten or diminish the rights of any religious minority in America?

If it were the sole main topic or the only sub-forum available, then perhaps one could argue there's preferential treatment for one group, but I honestly have no idea what that would even look like.
silentridge8 silentridge8 Active Member
231 messages
joined Jun 2007
#35 ·
Susan Price30 said:(Perditicee !! 🙂, I missed you 😘)

The only thing crossing my mind here is this: in what specific way would starting a major thread about Catholicism—given that we already have existing ones or sub-forums dedicated to it—actually threaten or diminish the rights of any religious minority in America?

If it were the *only* major topic or the sole sub-forum available, then maybe you could argue there was some kind of preferential treatment for one group, but honestly, I don't even know what that would look like.

Cheers, Susan Price30, darling 🙂 😘

From what I gathered from Agica (and I’m on her side here), the issue is that discussing Catholic doctrine is significantly harder because the ratio of trolls is much higher compared to other major topics. That’s what triggered the question, "Well, if Catholicism gets its own main thread, why shouldn't other groups have one too?"... To me, there isn't really a logical link between those two things. Just because we aim for "equal conditions for everyone" doesn't mean everyone has to be treated identically, and it feels like people are just twisting the situation after considering what Agica pointed out.
silverviper3 silverviper3 Newcomer
5 messages
joined Aug 2012
#36 ·
Daniel Ward87 said:
I’m going to give this one last shot, and then I’m done.

Even if we were all living in Vatican City where almost everyone identifies as Catholic, I am absolutely certain that the owner of Reddit and this entire admin team would maintain their exact same position. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter where you are located or who the majority of people surrounding you might be, because the fundamental principle here at Reddit is simply that the rules apply equally to everyone.

Honestly, I have no idea how else I can explain this to you so that it finally clicks and you actually wrap your head around it!

Way to go 👍
Anthony Perez9 Anthony Perez9 Regular
311 messages
joined Apr 2019
#37 ·
Personally, I wouldn't change a thing about the religion sub.
It’s easy to navigate and you don't have to go hunting through endless subforums just to find something.
There's no need to act like one specific type of Christianity needs protecting from all the others—unless, of course, people are feeling particularly "under attack." 🤷
Nicole James Nicole James Regular
313 messages
joined Dec 2010
#38 ·
Anthony Perez9 said:Personally, I wouldn't change a single thing about the Religion subreddit.
It’s clean, easy to navigate, and you don't have to wander through a million different sub-forums just to find what you need.
There really isn't any need to insulate one specific branch of Christianity from all the others—unless, of course, they feel like they're facing some sort of "existential threat." 🤷

Maybe we should go ahead and separate the Pastafarians from the Flying Ravioli sect too...

I honestly don't think adding one more sub-forum would mess up the layout too much. Besides, it might actually help us clear out that massive pile of trending topics sitting right at the top.
Nicholas King Nicholas King Regular
716 messages
joined Jan 2023
#39 ·
Anthony Perez9 said:There’s really no need to go out of one's way to protect one specific brand of Christianity from all the others—unless, of course, they’ve convinced themselves they are somehow "critically endangered." 🤷

From what I can gather, the whole idea of "shielding one faith from another" is something only Susan Price30 seems to be pushing (and frankly, I agree that it's wrong for a multitude of reasons).

However, there is a very practical reason why we shouldn't just leave the "Religion" PDF completely untouched: the sheer amount of frustration felt by the many people contributing there. On the flip side, my proposed solution—which I thought was quite simple and logical—involved setting up a single PPDF with moderation levels designed to eliminate any disruption to the discussion. That approach would essentially leave nothing but those few protesters stranded, the ones who are actually just upset by the mere existence of differing viewpoints.
Susan Price30 Susan Price30 Regular
304 messages
joined Feb 2017
#40 ·
Gregory Turner71 said:Maybe we should just separate the Pastafarians from the Flying Ravioli sect too...

Or perhaps we should just head over to the standard Christmas thread once a year and have people congratulate everyone on the "holidays of the sun god," just like you did. You know, unlike all the other mods or forum members on that thread.

(By the way, there was actually a dedicated thread about this on PZK back when it was relevant)

So it turns out that, unlike the other moderators in this subforum, that theoretical "everyone is equal" vision the Head Admin promotes for this forum—in practice—seems to work a bit differently for you, since you're part of the "old guard" (part of the former administration, right?). I certainly wouldn't say Uncle Sam or Blue Bird act this way... or that they seem to have any hidden, yet clearly personal, agendas.

From what I can see, the goal is "protecting one faith from another"...

I am NOT advocating for that. Not in the sense of "shielding" one person from another beforehand (which would obviously be wrong).
It just seems to me that the biggest target for trolls and trolling posts in these discussions is anything involving Catholic doctrine or faith. Whether it's out of ignorance or something else...
So my suggestion was simply that a specific subforum, or perhaps several, might solve this issue that has proven so difficult to fix despite all our attempts. That's all.🙂

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