Die-hard Ultras / Hardcore Supporters

velvetskipper52 said:why wouldn't you just turn the Raiders into an ultra group? would be way easier... the only real difference is just deciding if it's Dodgers or Raiders fans taking the lead

man, please... then define what the Raiders even are to you. is it even a group in your eyes??

velvetskipper52 said:Why don't you guys realize how much easier it would be to turn the Raiders into an ultra group? Honestly, the only real difference is deciding whether it's Dodgers or Raiders fans taking the top spot.

Since this whole debate is actually staying civil for once, why don't you weigh in? Tell us your vision for the future of the Raiders—how you'd want them to run, what you think they should become...

velvetskipper52 said:What? vi Look, you should probably realize sooner rather than later that trying to turn the Raiders into an ultra group is going to be an uphill battle. It’ll be a hell of a lot easier once you stop fighting it. At the end of the day, the only thing that actually matters is who takes the top spot: the Dodgers or the Raiders fans.

...and who exactly are we supposed to be talking about? I guess I should probably start by saying that my thoughts on this are still pretty much forming, but I’ve been sitting here thinking about everything lately. It feels like there's a lot to unpack, and honestly, I'm not entirely sure where to begin without getting too carried away. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it seems like we need to look at the bigger picture if we want to make any sense of the current situation. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I feel like there's more going on under the surface than people are willing to admit. It's a lot to process, I suppose.😕
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Look, guy, you aren't exactly helping us move the needle or making any progress for the Raiders or Hajduk.No with attitudes like that—and honestly, even your username is getting a little irritating. Let's not beat around the bush here; steeltrucker asked a very specific question, and I'm just as curious to hear the answer as he is.

What kind of dark definition of the Raiders are you even using? If someone shows up to the stands, they're a fan, plain and simple. It’ll take some time for everyone to get on the same page, but all this talk about who's an ultra and who isn't, or who showed up to the stadium in a jersey and who didn't... it's just pure nonsense...

rustyangler122 said:...so who exactly should we be...😕
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Guy, views like that—especially with a username that's a bit much—don't really help the Raiders or even Hajduk.No move forward. Let's not drag this out; steeltrucker asked a specific question that I'm actually interested in hearing the answer to too...

You all make the distinction yourselves

velvetskipper52 said:You guys are just making distinctions for the sake of it.

...honestly, what you said doesn't tell me anything I haven't heard before. You know it's true—sometimes people just feel left out, disrespected, or like their reputation has been dragged through the mud. I guess you're one of those people too.😕
...look, you either have integrity or you don't. People have different ways of handling things, which means there are going to be sides to take based on how people see things. Everyone follows their own conscience, I suppose, but at the end of the day, there's North, South, East, and West. Just find where you stand. Good luck.👍

You’re making science fiction out of something incredibly simple. Not everyone in the Copper State is going to want to be involved, nor will they be able to be "on the inside." For those of you who are, the responsibility falls on you to step up, because you're doing this out of pure love for the club and the group. Everyone else is just there to sing for their team three or four times a month.

rustyangler122 said:Your answer doesn't really tell me anything I don't already know... Sometimes people just end up feeling abandoned, humiliated, or like their reputation has been completely trashed. You were probably one of them too...😕
You either stand for something or you don't. People have different ways of living, which means there are places where people actually take a stand and places where they don't. Everyone follows their own conscience, but at the end of the day, the compass still points north, south, east, and west. Just find where you belong... good luck...👍

To be honest, I don't think your post brings anything new to the table... you're just confirming exactly what I told you...

George Castillo142 said:You guys are missing the point. These kids showed up as Dodgers fans and potential future Raiders fans. They messed up mainly because they wore Dodgers jerseys and sneakers. Are we sure we're sending the right message here?

Let me give you an example from back on Kranjčevićeva Street.
I can't remember the exact year, maybe five or six seasons ago.

I spent the entire first half watching three idiots acting like complete clowns in the stands. I thought to myself, these guys aren't even real fans, let alone part of the Raiders.

I don't recall if it was pouring rain the whole time or just starting, but these geniuses decided at halftime they'd had enough and headed for the exit.
I think one of them even grabbed a small flag he brought along. I just told them, "Go ahead, good luck to you." People like that are never going to be useful.

Later, I heard from the guys in the crew that they stripped them naked and sent them home in the middle of that rain.

I don't know what the deal was with that group from a different city, but showing up somewhere totally unprepared without asking anyone how things work? In my book, that deserves a reality check.

I have one question, since everything seems to revolve around this debate over whether the Raiders are actually an organized group or not... I’ll be honest, I just can't wrap my head around why we aren't considered a group while the Boys are, or why the Boys 2006 weren't viewed as a group back then but somehow are now.

So, what is there left to say...

In America, the Raiders have the largest section in the stadium.
We have the highest turnout for away games.
If you ask me, we create the best atmosphere at home.
Personally, I think the Raiders are also the best vocal traveling squad out there.
We light up the most flares, both at home and on the road.
Our stands are visually the best—flags, banners, choreographies—whether we are at home or away.
Out of all the American groups, we have the best European trips... I mean, the sheer numbers, the flares, the displays... even on the streets, the Raiders are pretty solid (Athens, Rome, Milan, Brussels), though maybe Zenith is the one exception.

And yet, we still aren't called a group, even though the Armada or the Boys, who operate in those same circles (aside from the Boys being active on the streets), are far behind us.

Can we talk about awareness for a second? For instance, there hasn't really been much agency regarding the management over the last 5 or 6 years; they worked systematically to target the wrong people within the front office... they worked on the code of conduct, they worked on our Los Angeles Dodgers... and still, we aren't a group.

coastalangler16 said:@mark my words

Like I said before, people tie the whole idea of being a fan too closely to this ultra mentality. Around here—and even in the stands—you’ve got people who are pretty much swallowed up by it. Most aren't, though. You claim a fan doesn't need to be able to name a single player on the Los Angeles Dodgers roster. Well, if someone can't know anything about the club, are they even a fan? At that point, you might as well be rooting for any random team like some kind of robot... besides that, I'm pretty convinced the college students who founded the Raiders didn't say, "Hey, let's get rowdy just to cause chaos in the streets and act like we own the place," but rather that they did it out of love for the Dodgers, wanting to cheer their club wherever they played and elevating the very concept of fandom by bringing together the most loyal folks. The goal wasn't street fights or some hooligan scheme. I won't point fingers at anyone living that life 24/7, unlike those who are less intense or just move in different circles, because you need everyone in the stands. You need the crew for the streets, for the flares, for the choreographies, for the chanting, for setting the atmosphere, etc. You say a person realizes early on how important being an ultra is, but for me, the definition of the Raiders isn't "hardcore ultra"—it's the combination of everything I just mentioned. A fan isn't necessarily an ultra. If those who are ultras immediately distance themselves from those who aren't, that's where the rift happens, and what we actually need is unity... I just want people to stop screwing with each other and instead give it their all so we don't stagnate during times of change like this. Whether someone is for the changes or against them doesn't matter much now; they happened, and the stands have to move forward instead of staying silent and laughing at the group's attempts to engage the rest of us... I'm fed up with this whole mess, but I hope I managed to explain at least a third of my opinion clearly enough...

Look, don't take this the wrong way, but with attitudes like yours, you don't really have anything to do with the Raiders. I respect you for who you are, and you wrote honestly what you think, but based on this, you're a classic Benjamin Cruz29. Don't go thinking you've missed out on anything just because you aren't part of the core group—the actual Raiders—which, let's be real, is full of jerks, cowards, trash, and all sorts of nonsense. Just keep cheering for the Dodgers and stay happy. It's not your fault you think this way; you just do, just like I'll never be a biker or a skater.
The unique problem with the Raiders is that a lot of people with a mindset similar to yours call themselves Raiders.
A famous fan once dropped a legendary line: "We make up 80% of the group, and the rest of these guys pretending to be fans are just a bunch of punks."
If he said that today, he'd probably say "We're 20% of the group," which pretty much describes the North Stand and the fans nowadays.
It's a classic case of the operation succeeding but the patient dying. The group still exists, but it has nothing to do with what it used to be.
I've been messing around with these posts for a long time just because I care, and we'll see how much longer that lasts—probably not much. I'm likely the last one losing hope, but even hope runs dry eventually. This year, I've already pulled away from the stands entirely, and soon I might stop following what happens with the Raiders altogether. It honestly hurts my soul to see what represents the Raiders today. People from my generation—from all the old groups, the die-hards and the legends—can easily sit on the sidelines, smoke a cigarette, and be perfectly fine knowing their legacy continued the right way. But when I look around, I feel like we have this massive, retarded, lukewarm child that's almost beyond saving. So the question remains: how much longer is it worth fighting for this kid while watching it suffer under pressure from all sides, or should I just admit defeat, acknowledge it's irreparable, and start over from scratch? Let the kid be a disaster then.
The Raiders have just been dealing with this massive identity crisis for the last 20 years—it’s honestly pathetic. They can't figure out who they actually are anymore. You've got the real ones—the people who actually get it, the true die-hards—and then you've got everyone else... the casuals. Both sides have been stretching the group thin for two decades now. Back in the early nineties, things stopped being pure, and this other influence started creeping in, and we're still feeling it today. The only question left is which side is going to win out. We're probably the only group in the entire world with a mess like this, and frankly, there isn't room for both types in the same house.
The Bulls are always the Bulls, the Yankees are always the Yankees, the Red Sox are always the Red Sox... the core stays the same. A Bull was a Bull in '86 and '96, and they're a Bull today—the generations change and the gear changes, sure, but the essence doesn't. But the Raiders? They were one thing for about ten years in the eighties, then spent the nineties as a bunch of rowdy amateurs and casuals, and then the two-thousands hit and it became this messy mix of both. It’s an endless internal conflict that just can't go on forever.
The Raiders weren't founded by some bunch of college kids from the coast like you're suggesting. This whole saga started in the early eighties, and we know the exact names and nicknames of the guys who kicked it all off—Kula, Uso, Prle, Maslo, Vele B., and the rest. It’s crystal clear what the Raiders used to be, and what we have now has absolutely nothing to do with those roots. To be blunt, you and a whole crowd of people—maybe even most of you now—are just interlopers in this story. Short and sweet. You might be the majority now, I wouldn't be surprised, but we'll see how this all plays out.
Yesterday, a guy with the handle mmw—who sits on the complete opposite side of the stadium—was in here trying to explain things that are true for every single fan section in every major sport. A fan recognizes a fan, just like a thief knows a thief or a junkie knows a junkie. It’s basic human nature. It's just that nobody seems to have as much drama over it as the Raiders do.
And for the record: when I first started heading to games and traveling for away matches back in the old days, THE RAIDERS WERE THE EMBODIMENT OF MIAMI BAD BOYS. We were 100% pure supporters, the gold standard, the strongest group in the entire country—which, let's face it, is five times larger than any other market. We were recognized and respected all across the US. About 90% of the respect we still manage to command comes from that era. This group basically invented modern fandom in this part of the world.
-So you guys just sit there and think about what you actually are...

Man, watch out, because if anyone messes with you, it’s gonna be raining hellfire from the top of Mount Rainier!

velvetskipper52 said:Look, I'm telling you, your post isn't exactly breaking new ground here. You’re just confirming exactly what I already told you.

...you want it straight?🤷 ...The split is pretty simple: there are people who actually step up and take risks, and then there are those who barely lift a finger. Naturally, the ones taking the heat should have more of a say. That’s the division. Is that clear enough now? If not, there's nothing else I can do for you. If someone gets caught up in the legal system three, four, five times, while others never deal with it—not because they got lucky, but because they never put themselves on the line—then yeah, that's how it works. Just deal with it. Honestly, don't bother replying to me anymore; if you can't handle my take, just put me on ignore. Nobody is forcing you to be a Raiders fan, and nobody is stopping you from supporting the Dodgers in your own way.

@velvetskipper52/">@@velvetskipper52 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏

once again, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know

velvetskipper52 said:You aren't telling me anything I don't already know.

Honestly, I think some government agencies would have plenty to say to you.😉👋

If you look back a few pages at what jollyrogera posted, specifically that bit from Matthew Foster8 up above... you just have to wrap your head around the reality of it all. Being part of a group isn't some math equation based on how many people show up to the stadium or how much the general public likes you, it’s about the collective mindset, the headspace, the actual vibe of the people involved... There are definitely some solid individuals in the Black Knights, some truly good guys, but man, it is honestly staggering how many idiots are mixed in there too....

velvetskipper52 said:you're telling me something I don't already know

Posting on this board using the name velvetskipper52 is like being the loudest jerk on a random internet troll forum.

You think you own the place, huh?

Matthew Foster8 said:And one last thing: when I first started hitting up games and traveling for away matches back in the old days, the Black Knights were basically the face of the local tough guys. They were 100% pure fans—the gold standard and the strongest group in a country five times larger than the US, respected by all of Europe. Most of the respect we still carry today comes from that era. This was the group that practically invented modern fan culture in this part of the world.
-just think about what you guys have become...

Ran into some old-school diehards the other day... folks who were around in '89 or '90.

I don't want to call anyone out, and honestly, I agree with 99% of what you wrote, but looking back at how things played out then, those were some strange times.

And I'm saying that as someone who actually remembers parts of it.

Christian Moore41 said:The guys in the stands can't stand people like you. Just skip this forum entirely. There’s nothing for you to find here.

What are you even rambling about? Let people speak the truth. We aren't blind. I'll give you credit for being obsessed with the Black Knights and all that, but let's be real—we lack unity. It's obvious. Even on away trips, there are barely any guys from our home city showing up. That's just the reality. Besides, it's pretty clear how preoccupied you are with me since you're busy repeating my jokes back to me!!! THANKS.
US National Team
p.s. I don't care if you ban me for life. I'm going to be right here forever.