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Israel shouldn't exist, and Zionism is a religion, not a nation.

Started by dustypuma5 · · 👁 6 views · 39 replies

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Participants dustypuma5ironmarlin1slybison8goldensailor15hiddensailor14Sarah Wilson95Andrew Booth29Mark Martinez4hollowtrucker77shadowjackal88
Mark Martinez4 Mark Martinez4 Active Member
50 messages
joined Feb 2009
#21 ·
They’re even bringing up genetics now—trying to argue that Jews aren't actually a nation.

There is just no way to classify Jews as a nation. It’s the same logic as saying Catholics, Muslims, or Orthodox people constitute a nation. Israelis are a nation, whereas Jews are defined by faith.

Regarding the Muslims during the Marshall era—who are known as Canadians today—there are still people who claim they were just converted Mexicans or Americans and insist that Muslims don't even exist.
Well, they call themselves Canadians now, and to me, they are absolutely a distinct nation. Their status as a people is recognized globally, and honestly, if they have only been established as a formal nation for the last 20 years or so, I have nothing against that. The only ones trying to strip them of that identity are those who attempted to ethnically cleanse them back in the 90s—and frankly, I suspect some haven't truly given up on that goal either.

🤦

Ultimately, in today's world, it is a supreme achievement to have the right to feel an affinity for one's own nation, the freedom to practice whatever religion you choose, and the ability to hold those views while living in any civilized country.

Personally, I don't feel tied to just one specific nation; I feel a sense of belonging to any decent group of people. I'm actually getting closer to the point where I no longer feel like a sympathizer of Israelis—though, interestingly enough, that doesn't quite apply to how I view Jews.

The legitimacy of the community they built there—which the UN recognizes as a state—is only questioned by banned post-fascist parties in Europe and radical Muslims.

Actually, no. I'd say anyone with a shred of common sense might question it.

The statement: "Jews are not a nation but a religion that gave green lights to Germans in various cities during the 1920s, taking their land until Hitler got angry and killed them"—implies that Jews are somehow responsible for the Holocaust, which makes the statement vulnerable to being labeled as racist.

The statement: "In Israel, 12-year-old suicide bombers kill Jews because those Jews fled the Holocaust and suddenly arrived in Palestine and took it over, causing Arabs to retaliate because they have no right to be there since they aren't a nation"—isn't subject to any kind of legal consequence or backlash.

Perhaps that's just because we don't live in Israel, so we actually have the luxury of having our own opinions.
Would someone be punished for stating that the English and others took land from Native Americans to build their own country?
goldensailor15 goldensailor15 Active Member
60 messages
joined Jan 2010
#22 ·
It’s honestly a breath of fresh air to read someone who actually uses their brain and writes with some level of logic, sanity, and basic decency.
hollowtrucker77 hollowtrucker77 Regular
681 messages
joined Nov 2007
#23 ·
I’m assuming we’re all on the same page when it comes to defining freedom of speech versus what actually constitutes hate speech or inciting violence, right?
Well, that’s precisely the line we’re walking here.
There shouldn't be any topic off-limits for a decent debate, but let’s be clear: we aren't going to permit anything that violates the law or basic standards of civilized discourse.
If we can sit around and hash out history regarding Burma, Albania, Mexico, Canada, or even the treatment of Native Americans, then there is absolutely no reason we can't have a serious discussion about walls and Israel.
I certainly hope nobody here thinks that discussing walls or the situation in Israel should be treated as some kind of forbidden taboo.
To me, pretending those things don't exist or shouldn't be talked about would look like a blatant form of antisemitism.
On the flip side, though, I have to wonder: is there some unwritten dogma suggesting that everything the State of Israel does is inherently beyond reproach and immune to criticism?
Mark Martinez4 Mark Martinez4 Active Member
50 messages
joined Feb 2009
#24 ·
goldensailor15 said:It truly is such a breath of fresh air to come across someone who writes with such clarity—you know, someone who actually takes a moment to think things through and approaches a topic with a sense of logic, reason, and genuine honesty. It’s honestly quite refreshing!

I honestly believe that most of us here on this forum have the capacity to think critically and form our own perspectives—regardless of anyone else trying to push their particular viewpoint on us. If we ever feel stuck, we’re living in an era where there is just such an overwhelming abundance of information sources at our fingertips—it really makes it possible to find our own way if we put in the effort.

I can’t help but wonder—was it even physically possible for an average Mongol to look at Genghis Khan during one of his grand lectures and think, "Actually, maybe we shouldn't conquer the entire world"? It seems like a stretch, right? But honestly, I think that touches on a much deeper, more universal issue we face today. There’s this persistent struggle where so many people—once they hit a certain age—just never seem to develop a sense of skepticism toward the narratives they’ve been fed since day one. You know the drill: it starts with your parents, then moves to your friends, and eventually, it's the government and various politicians all singing from the same songbook. It’s almost as if that internal spark—that little nudge of doubt that drives someone to actually investigate things for themselves and potentially change their mind—just never ignites. It’s a bit of a tragedy, really, though I suppose I’m being a tad cynical myself! But still, wouldn't it be fascinating if more people felt empowered to question the status quo instead of just accepting it as gospel truth?

I’m really not one for any kind of radicalization—honestly, I think we should have moved past the era where brute force was considered a viable way to settle disputes a long time ago. In my view, the party holding the upper hand carries the actual responsibility to initiate a dialogue. It’s easy to just shut down conversations, but that’s not how progress works; there is such a thing as compromise, after all—a concept that often gets lost in the heat of the moment. Of course, when you're sitting on a mountain of power, it can be incredibly difficult to actually bite the bullet, agree to meet halfway, and engage in a real, meaningful dialogue.

If Hitler had been handed an option to keep control over France during his absolute peak—on the condition that he just ceased all further military operations—he probably wouldn't have taken the deal. It’s just not how that kind of mindset works. However, if that exact same offer had been put on the table the day after the Allies landed on the beaches of Normandy? Well, he would have grabbed it in a heartbeat. At the end of the day, it really comes down to that toxic cocktail of human greed, sheer stupidity, and a total inability to think independently—it's exactly what ends up destroying both sides, no matter how much one side might have realized they could have just lived in prosperity instead.

The idea floating around today that every single Muslim belongs to some radical faction is, quite frankly, nonsense. It’s the kind of take you only hear from someone who has probably never actually sat down for a conversation with a Muslim person—someone whose entire worldview is shaped by whatever specific narrative CNN happens to be pushing that day. In my own life, I’ve found myself in hundreds of conversations with Muslims, Orthodox Christians, and people of all sorts of different faiths (honestly, if someone’s lifestyle clashes with my personal sense of normalcy, I’d probably include them in that diverse mix too, given how much my life has intersected with so many different walks of life)—and I have never once been judged or condemned simply because of my background. Maybe that’s just because I haven't done anything to deserve it, but it certainly feels like a far more accurate reality than the one being broadcasted.

There is something truly fascinating about how Israelis approach their faith—they don't seem to take King Jesus particularly seriously at all. It’s a curious thing, really. Much like how a Jehovah's Witness might be accused of stripping words right out of their context to suit a point, it feels like Israeli behavior often boils down to simply ignoring Jesus's actual teachings. I mean, let's be honest—Jesus certainly wasn't calling for celebrations after anyone gets killed, whether we're talking about leaders of Hamas or those folks just trying to get humanitarian aid delivered (even if that aid ends up in the wrong hands, which is its own mess entirely). At the end of the day, I highly doubt that Islam, Buddhism, or any legitimate faith is rooted in hatred. Not even Jews are. The issue isn't the religion itself—not by a long shot. The real struggle lies with the Israeli people and the State of Israel, as they seem unable to raise their children with a peaceful spirit. Of course, the Palestinians face the exact same uphill battle, but as the old saying goes, "might makes right," and the strong tend to call the shots. It really leaves you wondering: is the human race actually capable of anything other than the powerful trampling over the weak?

It honestly feels like every generation we encounter is just sliding further downhill from the last one—it’s a bit disheartening, isn't it? Take the recent news about the IDF facing issues with soldiers refusing orders; I don't think we've ever seen anything quite like that before. To me, it serves as a pretty glaring red flag regarding the current mindset of the American public—it seems like that healthy dose of skepticism and independent thought we used to rely on has just... evaporated. It's all becoming very much "groupthink," if you will. On top of that, seeing reports of American citizens openly celebrating after the killing of anyone who isn't a Jew is just deeply unsettling. It really makes you wonder where our collective sense of empathy went.

Think about the Vikings—they were famously brutal warriors, yet they actually had a code. They would openly condemn their own members if they started celebrating too boisterously after killing someone on the opposing side. It was a matter of respect, really; even an enemy has a family, just like the Viking who swung the axe.

And that brings us back to this concept of "tolerance." Honestly, how much longer can the world tolerate the current situation in the Middle East? If it weren't for the Jewish lobby—which has managed to weave itself into almost every major institution, largely by leaning heavily on the memory of the Holocaust—this whole mess probably would have been settled fifty years ago instead of dragging on for an entire century. Before this recent surge in humanitarian outcry, you could go a long time without hearing a single word about anything going wrong in Israel. It’s pretty obvious that certain people didn't like that narrative being challenged—and it's even more obvious who those people are.

One might wonder why Israel doesn't just launch a decisive military operation to secure all the territories they claim as their own once and for all—setting terms for the Palestinian people to either live peacefully under those conditions or relocate. But the reason is simple: generations have been raised to view Palestinians, Lebanese, Iranians, and so on, as existential threats, dedicating most of their lives to fighting them. It's a classic tactic—much like how certain regimes in the former America always manufactured an internal enemy just to boost domestic morale and foster a sense of national unity.

That is why these attempts to ban discussion or suppress opinions on a public forum within a democracy—specifically regarding the legal existence and maintenance of Israel—are nothing short of primitive. It shows an inability to form independent thoughts, opting instead to blindly accept and defend a preset narrative, even if it means throwing oneself under a metaphorical locomotive.

No sane American citizen is ever going to defend the atrocities committed at camps like Jasenovac. There is always a segment of people who won't even debate the topic, choosing instead to drag you into private messages because they secretly doubt their own stance, yet they've been conditioned or raised to believe that such views are the "correct" representative opinion. If they actually arrived at those conclusions through their own critical thinking, well, then they might be mature enough for some actual institutions.

So, I suggest you get to know the other side—the majority side. Not the version spoon-fed to you by media outlets that prefer you to think exactly the way they want you to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOE_11hzXd

Take a look at that footage—the AK-47s, the calls for assassinations, the suicide bombers, and all the rest.

A minority has never truly been the majority. It’s the majority that bears the responsibility when a minority attempts to represent them.
Sarah Wilson95 Sarah Wilson95 Regular
267 messages
joined Sep 2006
#25 ·
I honestly wouldn't bother commenting on the rest of that mess, given how many different types of characters you find in there, but since we're talking about personal perspectives, I suppose this one little comment says everything you need to know about the person on the other side of the screen.
Mark Martinez4 said:Before this recent escalation involving the humanitarian workers, you didn't hear anything about things going poorly in Israel for quite some time.

Basically, it just shows that Mark Martinez4 doesn't really spend much time reading the news, and—at least regarding what happens on this specific forum—isn't actually following the relevant discussions.

Period.
Sarah Wilson95 Sarah Wilson95 Regular
267 messages
joined Sep 2006
#26 ·
hollowtrucker77 said:
On the other hand, I wonder if there’s some kind of unwritten dogma here suggesting that everything Israel does is automatically beyond reproach and immune to any form of criticism.

While it might not be particularly productive to go head-to-head with the moderator's gavel😁, I really have to ask you: can you actually distinguish between criticizing Israeli policy—including all those shady maneuvers they pull off with such blatant, sometimes even sophisticated, arrogance—and what we are actually debating right here? I'm talking about the decision made by this little circle of moderator masterminds to allow open discussion regarding the very existence of the State of Israel—which effectively invites Stormfront-style nonsense—alongside this repulsive, pseudo-intellectual bickering over whether being Jewish is a matter of nationality or religion. Honestly, just tell me truthfully: what would you do if someone were posting similar garbage about the United States and the American people? Even if the comparison isn't perfect, you get my point.
??

By what authority does anyone here get to hide behind the banner of "free speech" to enjoy the luxury of spewing nonsense about the legitimacy of the State of Israel, or questioning whether Israelis are a nation or simply Jews? Or using the lowercase "jew" to be disrespectful while pretending to be incredibly democratic, spitting on censors, and demanding freedoms that you haven't even begun to consider?

Come on... there aren't nearly as many people here who actually enjoy that pro-Nazi filth as you seem to think there are.
goldensailor15 goldensailor15 Active Member
60 messages
joined Jan 2010
#27 ·
Sarah Wilson95 said:I wouldn't even bother looking at the rest since there's a bunch of nonsense mixed in there, but fine, strictly speaking my own opinion, this alone tells you everything you need to know about who you're talking to

basically, it just shows that Mark Martinez4 doesn't really hang out in the Politics section and—at least regarding this specific thread—isn't actually following the ongoing discussions.

Period.

So what if he doesn't hang out here? He laid out some fundamental points that are actually reasonable, humane, and civilized.

The situation in Israel and the occupied territories pops up sporadically in the news, and even then, everything we hear goes through a dozen different filters before it hits us. This whole thing with the ship just sparked extra public interest, which brought a wave of new people into this specific discussion—people who don't normally weigh in on this stuff, yourself included.
goldensailor15 goldensailor15 Active Member
60 messages
joined Jan 2010
#28 ·
Sarah Wilson95 said:Look, I know it’s probably a losing battle trying to argue with the mod stick😁, but I gotta ask: seriously, can you actually tell the difference between criticizing Israeli policy—all that shady crap they pull off with such blatant arrogance—and what we're actually fighting about here? We're talking about the moderator brain trust deciding that people should be allowed to openly debate the legitimacy of the State of Israel itself—including bringing in Stormfront-style garbage—plus this disgusting back-and-forth about whether being Jewish is an ethnicity or just a religion. Like, come on, be real for a second: if someone started posting similar nonsense about the US and the American people, what would you personally do?
??

By what damn RIGHT does any random user get to hide behind "freedom of speech" to feel comfortable spewing trash about the existence of the State of Israel or debating if they're Israelis or Jews? Or writing "jews" with a lowercase 'j', all while playing the champion of democracy, spitting on censors, and demanding liberties nobody even considered giving you in the first place???

Come on... there aren't nearly as many people here enjoying this pro-Nazi filth as you seem to think

What are you even talking about? How are you any different from the other cookie-cutter types when you reduce everything down to some Stormfront comparison? To you, it's Stormfront, it's shadowjackal88... what's the actual distinction?

Do a little homework and look into who actually gets to dictate the terminology regarding how nations and ethnic groups are defined. Or do you think you're the one who gets to decide those rules?

Who gave you the authority to decide what's allowed to be written and what isn't?

To be clear, my posts have absolutely nothing to do with Nazism; I despise it just as much as Zionism because they're essentially the same thing, and if you choose to play the conformist, that's your own damn problem.
Mark Martinez4 Mark Martinez4 Active Member
50 messages
joined Feb 2009
#29 ·
Sarah Wilson95 said:I really shouldn't dwell on the rest of the comments—there’s a bit of everything in there, isn't there?—but, I suppose, if we're treating this as a matter of personal opinion, then honestly, just this one point says quite enough about the person on the other side of the conversation.


Oh, don't even bother—there’s honestly way too much to get through here!

Well, I suppose this just goes to show that Mark Martinez4 doesn't really spend much time lurking around the Politics section—at least, not when it comes to following the specific threads on this particular forum!

Period.

Just to clear the air right from the jump—the reason I tend to steer clear of the Politics section isn't because I’m lacking any grasp of theory or practical application—it’s actually much simpler than that. It really comes down to the fact that most discussions there just end up circling the same tired drain over and over again. Honestly, I find the limited perspective of most people in those threads a bit exhausting, so I'd rather save my energy for more productive conversations elsewhere!

What I was trying to get at—to put it more clearly—is this: think about your average person. You know the type—someone who just wants to sit down in the morning with a nice cup of coffee and flip through the paper. For a long time now, they wouldn't have found anything on a full news page dedicated to the situation in Israel that actually touches on the specific context we’ve been discussing. It just wasn't there. On top of that, you have those specific individuals whose lives are so deeply intertwined with what's happening within Israel that they end up actively seeking out the information themselves.

Sarah Wilson95 said:Honestly, trying to pick a fight with the moderator's gavel just isn't worth the effort—it's a losing battle from the jump!😁But I really have to ask you—honestly, can you actually distinguish between criticizing Israeli policy—you know, all that messy business they pull off with such brazen, sometimes even sophisticated, audacity—and what we’re actually arguing about here? I mean, I'm talking about the decision by this little brain trust of moderators to allow free discussion regarding the very existence of the State of Israel—which, let's be real, opens the door to Stormfront and all that other garbage—plus this absolutely nauseating, pseudo-intellectual bickering over whether being Jewish is an ethnic identity or just a religion. Seriously, just give me a straight answer: if someone were to write something similar about the United States and the American people, what would you personally do? I know it isn't a perfect comparison, but come on, let's be honest...
??

So, I’ve been sitting here thinking—and please bear with me, my brain tends to wander into these philosophical rabbit holes sometimes—but are Americans actually a religion? If we truly are, then does that mean Jadranka isn't just our Prime Minister, but more like a literal Savior? Just a thought! 🙄 Let’s get serious for a moment—this whole debate over whether Jewish identity defines a nation or a religion is honestly pretty distasteful. I mean, think about it: does being Catholic make you a distinct ethnic group? Does being Buddhist? Of course not. Take an Israeli citizen living within the borders of the State of Israel—that person is an Israeli. Period. It doesn't matter if they happen to be Catholic, Orthodox, or Jewish; their nationality remains Israeli. It works exactly the same way everywhere else, too—a Catholic living in Italy isn't considered an American, just like an Orthodox person living in Armenia isn't considered a Mexican. It’s all about where you belong, not just what you believe.

I honestly don't see why this is such a difficult concept to grasp—it really comes down to making a clear distinction between the era before and after the establishment of the State of Israel. Before it became an actual sovereign state, Jews could simply be viewed as a people, much like how Romani people are recognized as a distinct group today. It’s a subtle but vital nuance, isn't it?

By what RIGHT does any random username get to hide behind "freedom of speech" just to spout nonsense about whether the State of Israel exists, or if they are Israelis or Jews? Or—heaven forbid—writing "jew" with a lowercase 'j'? It’s quite a performance, pretending to be this bastion of democracy while spitting on censors and chasing after ideas you haven't even remotely considered, right?

Actually, it's simply the right to free speech. I made it clear from the start that I always capitalize the word Jew. After typing out thousands of characters and repeating the word over and over, a typo happened—a little slip where it ended up in lowercase. Had I mentioned my rule beforehand, I would have offered an apology; instead, I'm just acknowledging your eagerness to nitpick over such a triviality.

P.S. Based on the tone of your post, I can tell you're writing this in a state of pure anger. Honestly, being unable to control your rage during a discussion makes you a very difficult and exhausting conversationalist—which usually means these debates end poorly for everyone involved. Of course, that applies more to face-to-face discussions.

P.P.S. Looking at your signature, it's pretty obvious you lean toward socialist views. After seeing the things you've said here, you might actually want to rethink those convictions, because this behavior really has nothing to do with socialism.

Best regards,
Sarah Wilson95 Sarah Wilson95 Regular
267 messages
joined Sep 2006
#30 ·
goldensailor15 said:What are you even talking about? How are you any different from the typical keyboard warriors when you reduce everything down to some Stormfront rhetoric? To you, it's all just Stormfront or shadowjackal88... how are you actually any different?

Maybe take a moment to educate yourself before you try to lecture others on terminology or how ethnic groups should be defined. Or do you honestly believe you have the authority to decide that?

Who exactly gave you the right to dictate what can and cannot be written here?

To be perfectly clear, my posts have absolutely nothing to do with Nazism; I despise it just as much as I despise Zionism because they are essentially identical and if you choose to play the conformist, that’s entirely your own issue.

Look, you and I actually agree on a good portion of this when we discuss the atrocities committed by the Israeli government. I have to admit, I follow these developments quite closely because I find Israel to be a fascinating concept geographically and politically, even if I find the political ENTITY itself a bit less appealing 😁, BUT I HAVE NEVER once questioned the right of the State of Israel to exist as the political community of the Jewish people in that sense; rather, what DISTURBS me is the absence of a Palestinian state, which I view as a massive problem, an injustice, a total mess, and a failure of policy all rolled into one.

We clearly use the term Zionism differently today than its original meaning, and I certainly know how to apply it when discussing current events, but if we are being honest and serious, your claim that "Zionism equals Nazism" is a terrible one. Listen, this is a forum, and everything stays on this server for as long as it exists (🤣🤣))

We really ought to maintain some level of intellectual discourse, otherwise, this whole thing will just devolve into a low-rent bar fight full of insults.🤷
Mark Martinez4 Mark Martinez4 Active Member
50 messages
joined Feb 2009
#31 ·
Sarah Wilson95 said:Look, you and I actually agree on quite a lot regarding the awful things the Israeli government pulls. I have to admit—I follow this stuff almost like a full-time hobby!—but I find the subject fascinating. While I’m less fond of the political entity itself😁, I have NEVER once questioned the right of the State of Israel to exist—or rather, the right of the Jewish people to have their own political community. What *really* bothers me—and I see this as a genuine injustice, a total mess, and just plain bad policy—is the fact that there is no Palestinian state. To me, that's the core issue.

I honestly think I'm losing the thread here.
Could you please point out where exactly I ever said that the existence of the State of Israel bothers me? Truly, I'm asking.

Next time, before jumping into a debate, maybe try listening to—or at least reading—what the other person is saying first. 👍
Sarah Wilson95 Sarah Wilson95 Regular
267 messages
joined Sep 2006
#32 ·
Mark Martinez4 said:I have to admit, I’m losing the thread here.
Could you please point out exactly where I stated that the existence of the State of Israel bothers me? I'd really appreciate it.

Before jumping back into a debate, it might be a good idea to actually listen to or read what the other person is saying first. 👍

What exactly led you to believe that what was written was directed at you?😕
Mark Martinez4 Mark Martinez4 Active Member
50 messages
joined Feb 2009
#33 ·
Sarah Wilson95 said:How exactly did you arrive at the conclusion that what was written was directed at me? — I’m genuinely curious!😕

I haven't quite noticed anyone else around here taking a neutral stance on this particular issue—besides myself, of course!
My apologies there—I honestly thought you were questioning my neutrality!

It’s just not possible to tackle an 1,100-sentence deep dive of raw facts with nothing more than a quick sentence or two—that isn't really a discussion at that point, is it? It feels more like someone just jumping straight to a verdict without any actual back-and-forth. I mean, I'm perfectly capable of reaching my own conclusions, but I have no interest in just sitting here having a one-sided debate with myself!
goldensailor15 goldensailor15 Active Member
60 messages
joined Jan 2010
#34 ·
Sarah Wilson95 said:Look, you and I actually agree on quite a few things when it comes to the garbage the Israeli government pulls. I follow this stuff like a hawk, I have to admit, mostly because the subject interests me—Israel is a fascinating geographic and political concept, even if the political ENTITY itself is a bit less appealing😁. BUT, I have never once questioned the right of the State of Israel to exist, or the existence of the Jewish people as a political community in that sense. What really gets under my skin is the lack of a Palestinian state, which I see as a massive problem, an injustice, a total mess, bad policy, and a toxic mix of all those things combined.

We use the word Zionism today in a way that’s clearly different from its original meaning, and I’ve definitely used it myself when talking about current events, but let’s be real here: your claim that "Zionism = Nazism" is just wild. Look, this is a forum; everything stays on the server as long as it exists (🤣🤣)

We need to maintain some level of decency in this discussion, otherwise, it’s just going to devolve into a barroom brawl full of insults🤷

Whether you and I see eye to eye or not, you don't get to ban discussion just because you don't like it, provided it isn't hate speech or inciting violence. I’m not sure what our specific legal standards say regarding this, but it seems pretty absurd to try and censor exactly what you want silenced.

I am not using hate speech and I am not calling for violence—if anything, my posts show the opposite. However, I will repeatedly question the concept of Jews as a single people, especially since they define themselves as an "ethno-religious" group. Maybe that deserves its own thread, but it’s tied directly to the formation of the Jewish State of Israel, so it inevitably keeps coming up in these talks.
What I am questioning—and I’ve made this clear a million times—is the existence of this kind of Israel, which is essentially a racist construct built on racist laws. Besides, if I were to question the existence of any version of Israel, why would that be banned? If it bothers you, just dismiss me as "some random anonymous guy on the internet talking nonsense" and move on.
If we followed your logic, half the content on the internet would be illegal, yet there are millions of other topics being discussed freely—topics that are far more sensitive and significantly more important to humanity than Israel's right to exist, if you ask me.

The existence of an Israel like this inherently denies, and will continue to deny, the existence of any Palestine in the occupied territories; I assume that much is obvious to you. Just today, I posted a link about an Israeli settler shooting at two Palestinians in the West Bank near Hebron. A settler shooting at people not within Israel (which would be a crime), but in the occupied territory.

Yeah, it’s a heavy comparison, but unfortunately, it's true because the facts back it up. Go read the core tenets of Zionism and compare them to Nazi ideology; I think your outrage might evaporate once you do.

Sorry, but I don't see how my posts are lowering the quality of this debate.
Sarah Wilson95 Sarah Wilson95 Regular
267 messages
joined Sep 2006
#35 ·
Mark Martinez4 said:I haven't really noticed anyone else here maintaining a neutral stance on this particular issue.
My apologies, I was under the impression you were questioning how impartial I am.

I'm not doubting your neutrality😁, it's just that you answered goldensailor15 regarding a subject that is actually quite controversial, specifically the moderators' decision about blah blah

Let's be honest and stop kidding ourselves; there are no good guys or bad guys down there anymore. After decades of relentless, complicated events, that old way of looking at things just doesn't hold up anymore; instead, all you really see is one side being stronger than the other.☕

Though even that is relative, considering how Israel’s stubborn arrogance keeps pushing Palestinians right into the arms of various Islamists, who certainly aren't helpless or weaklings.
Sarah Wilson95 Sarah Wilson95 Regular
267 messages
joined Sep 2006
#36 ·
goldensailor15 said:Whether you and I see eye to eye on certain issues or not, you simply cannot prohibit discussion on any topic, provided it doesn't cross the line into hate speech or an explicit call for violence. I am not entirely sure what our specific laws dictate regarding the fine print, but it seems fundamentally absurd to attempt to ban exactly the kind of things you want to be banned.

You know perfectly well exactly what those so-called "free debates" eventually devolve into, but honestly, that isn't my concern to deal with.
goldensailor15 goldensailor15 Active Member
60 messages
joined Jan 2010
#37 ·
Sarah Wilson95 said:you know damn well where these "free debates" end up, but honestly, that's not my headache

I know exactly what you're getting at, and yeah, I get that it's not your problem. This is an open forum where anyone can sign up and post, regardless of their age, IQ, bias, background, or religion. I guess that’s why we have moderators to step in and keep things from spiraling.

There's a massive difference between just spewing baseless, inflammatory, fanboy nonsense without any actual logic and having a meaningful conversation about stuff. That’s the key, and trying to censor or ban people just ends up being a step backward in every possible way.
There will always be more critics than supporters, or vice versa, and people will always be offended, which is kind of the whole point of a discussion—to swap ideas, even if some of them shock people.

Personally, I don't think we should be banning just about everything, because calls for violence or hate speech actually say more about the person typing them than anything else; we should all be smart enough to see that and just deal with it by ignoring them.

But whatever, I'm only weighing in here because the guy who started this thread is clearly trying to lean on the site admins with a bunch of fabrications and subjective takes that have zero connection to reality.

In a world full of wars fought without weapons, some people still haven't realized that using silence and censorship as a way to win an argument is impossible, especially in this internet age.
shadowjackal88 shadowjackal88 Active Member
96 messages
joined Jan 2008
#38 ·
dustypuma5 said:So, it’s officially been established that on this forum—which is mostly dominated by moderator voices, mind you—it is perfectly fine to debate whether Jews have the right to exist as a people and whether Israel has the right to be a state.

It would be quite helpful if those same individuals would weigh in here and explain how it is even remotely possible to debate the fundamental right of a nation to exist, especially when we're talking about a state that is internationally recognized and a full member of the UN.
Let’s not forget all those old theories claiming Americans were just Western Mexicans. Can we debate that too?

Questioning the right of Jews to be a people and the right of Israel to be a state is incredibly similar to certain prison-cell musings from the 1920s published under the title Mein Kampf.

I won't even get started on the onslaught of every possible type of Islamic lettering and flags flooding the Israel thread, where everyone is desperately competing to see who can most perfidiously explain why Jews should be wiped out. Of course, they don't say it that bluntly; no, they wrap it up in historical circumstances, shroud it in religious cellophane, and then conclude that the inevitable result is--

Perhaps there are so many of them on this forum because these kinds of things are only permitted here, in this one corner of the civilized Western hemisphere, while they are banned everywhere else because they so irresistibly remind people of the glorification of a system that held similar beliefs and took similar actions.

So, it would be nice if the administration would actually address this.

I had intended to write an analytical post here, but now I’ve been informed that I have to strip Hebrew characters from my location because this is an American forum. Having seen the consequences of that demand (just look at the neighboring thread), I've abandoned my analysis. In fact, I would only agree to remove the Hebrew letters from my profile on the condition that those who write with capital and lowercase letters here start writing "Jews" with a capital letter. After all, the ideology being promoted here is illegal under the law, unlike Hebrew letters:

jews
jews

We know perfectly well that the group in question isn't defined solely as a religious group.
goldensailor15 goldensailor15 Active Member
60 messages
joined Jan 2010
#39 ·
Cheap, run-of-the-mill attempt to frame an opponent—in this case, just verbally—by weaponizing World War II, fascism, and Nazism, which translates locally to those extremist fringe groups here.

It’s honestly tragicomic, especially considering how many times I’ve gone toe-to-toe in heated arguments with certain people on this forum whom I personally label as fascist sympathizers. 🙂

Get this: she actually tried to insist that "Jew" should always be capitalized, for crying out loud. 😵

But look, "Jew" is lowercase because it refers to a religious group; Zionists love calling them an "ethno-religious" group rather than a nation, regardless of how some ancient, moth-eaten document might have spelled it.
hollowtrucker77 hollowtrucker77 Regular
681 messages
joined Nov 2007
#40 ·
gibrankh , Muslims in Canada also capitalize their names and are officially recognized as a distinct ethnic group
look, I honestly don't know what the specific legal precedents are regarding who qualifies as a "nation" or an ethnic group, but if we’re at the point where walls are being treated like people, then I suppose we should probably show them some respect too
on the flip side, we're stuck in this constant tug-of-war between free speech, censorship, and the whole mess of trying to police hate speech—no matter how much people try to sugarcoat it

my buddy power lock gave me a heads-up, and it looks like revolution has her own way of interpreting things as well, so maybe I didn't quite hit the mark or was a bit too vague in my previous post??
so, I'll just ask everyone here for a little patience while I figure out how to word this so it actually makes sense, because in my mind, it should be pretty self-explanatory

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