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21st Century Hollywood: Bad, but overrated?

Started by Gregory Howard · · 👁 5 views · 59 replies

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Participants Gregory HowardKaren Smith9Gary James88silentpilot6Mark Wood79Jessica Nguyen85wiredbison82Austin Collins5quietdriver3Nicholas Walker3Donna Gray4briskfalcon45Roger Allen3Grace White4Richard Wilson4Christian Taylor3crimsondriver54ruggedjackal46
Gregory Howard Gregory Howard Active MemberOP
144 messages
joined Dec 2009
#1 ·
People never stop talking about this movie or that one when discussing Hollywood, but certain experts
like the critic and theorist Roger Ebert, remain skeptical
regarding the actual scope and merit of American cinema as a whole.

Here is his list of 1,000 essential films:
http://www.alsolikelife.com/FilmDiary/rosenbaum.html

Whether you agree with his specific picks or not—forget about all those
Titanics, Flights... or even Quentin Tarantino and Steven Spielberg, it doesn't matter.
The real heavyweights are Mizoguchi, Orson Welles, Abbas Kiarostami, Robert Bresson, Jean-Luc Godard,
Krzysztof Kieslowski, and Andrei Tarkovsky.

When we debate here, we aren't using the language of literature to discuss
Gustave Flaubert or Leo Tolstoy; we’re talking about Zane Grey and John Doe.
Karen Smith9 Karen Smith9 Active Member
183 messages
joined Apr 2013
#2 ·
Gregory Howard said:People are constantly buzzing about this or that American movie, but certain connoisseurs
—thinking like the critic and theorist Roger Ebert—remain skeptical
regarding the true scope and value of Hollywood as a whole.

Here is his list of 1,000 essential films:
http://www.alsolikelife.com/FilmDiary/rosenbaum.html

Whether you agree with a specific pick or not—just forget about all those
Titaniсs, Flights... or even Quentin Tarantino and Steven Spielberg, for that matter.
The real heavyweights are names like Kenji Mizoguchi, Orson Welles, Abbas Kiarostami, Robert Bresson, Jean-Luc Godard,
Krzysztof Kieslowski, and Andrei Tarkovsky...

The subjects of debate here aren't literary giants like Gustave Flaubert or
Leo Tolstoy, but rather someone like Zane Grey or John Doe.

Well, it’s certainly one of the better lists out there—and honestly, I still have quite a long way to go before I can work my way through the whole thing.
Gary James88 Gary James88 Active Member
119 messages
joined Oct 2008
#3 ·
Hollywood has this incredibly aggressive, well-oiled marketing and PR machine. Between those massive budgets and that level of organization, they can easily drown out any other film industry. But we shouldn't pretend that some of their absolute worst films aren't a direct byproduct of that exact system. You could pit any other national cinema against Hollywood and get all sorts of results, but if you try to stack Hollywood up against just one other single country—assuming we’re actually ranking film as an art form or evaluating entire industries—it’s not even a fair fight.
silentpilot6 silentpilot6 Regular
295 messages
joined Sep 2004
#4 ·
It all comes down to how you approach the core issue...
We are constantly bombarded by Hollywood productions, many of which are complete garbage or mindless blockbusters designed solely to squeeze out a few extra bucks. On the flip side, whenever a film from Europe or Asia makes its way to us, they tend to be genuinely high-quality pieces of art. This leads us to idolize almost any foreign cinema, conveniently forgetting that European and Asian films aren't immune to nonsense, trash, or pure stupidity either.
If we watched as many non-American films as we watch American ones, we would likely stumble upon just as much idiocy... 🤷
Mark Wood79 Mark Wood79 Member
49 messages
joined Jul 2010
#5 ·
Gregory Howard said:Here is his list of 1,000 essential films:
I’ve been spending some time thinking about how we actually experience movies—not just watching them, but really living through them. It’s easy to get caught up in technicalities or plot points, but the real magic happens when a film manages to bridge that gap between the screen and our own lives. When you look at the giants of cinema, you start to see patterns in how they manipulate emotion. Take someone like Steven Spielberg; he has this incredible knack for making the spectacle feel deeply personal. Even when the scale is massive, the heart of the story remains grounded in human connection. On the other hand, you have directors who lean into the surreal or the psychological, using visual language to pull us into a headspace that feels almost dreamlike. I often find myself comparing different eras of filmmaking. There was something special about the Golden Age of Hollywood—a certain sense of craftsmanship and narrative clarity that felt effortless. But then you have the modern era, where the tools are more advanced, yet sometimes that raw, visceral punch gets lost in the digital polish. It makes me wonder if we’re losing the ability to sit with a slow-burn movie. We live in such a fast-paced culture now that the patience required for a masterpiece by someone like Abbas Kiarostami can feel like a challenge. Yet, those are exactly the films that stay with you. They don't give you all the answers immediately; they force you to sit in the silence and reflect. Ultimately, whether it’s a high-octane thriller or a quiet character study, the best films act as mirrors. They reflect our own fears, joys, and complexities back at us. When a director succeeds, it isn't just because they made a "good movie," but because they created an experience that changes how you see the world once the lights come up in the theater.

This is a solid list of genuine masterpieces. You can tell we're dealing with a true cinephile here. That being said, I do have a few reservations:

Most of these were more or less well done, but it really sticks in my craw that there isn't a single Victor Sjöström in the mix.

Back in the 1930s, you had guys like Marcel Carné or Julien Duvivier making their mark on poetic realism. Even if you count eight different Jean Renoirs in that mix, he wasn't the only heavy hitter—there was only one true Jean.
It’s wild to think back to that specific window in the mid-forties—first you have Visconti dropping "Ossessione" in 1943, and then just two years later, Rossellini gives us "Rome, Open City."😕It was added later, but at the end of the day, the foundations are what matter most.
In the 1940s, you only really see one John Huston, and then in the 1950s, he’s nowhere to be found.

It feels like a real injustice to leave out Henri-Georges Cluzet. Is it seriously possible that there’s no room for masterpieces like *The Raven* or *Les Diaboliques*? It’s common knowledge that Cluzet is the only one who could truly stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Alfred Hitchcock, earning him that "master of suspense" title. He only included *The Wages of Fear*, but he dated it back to 1954.😕

Another massive injustice was done to the great Jules Dassin—there’s simply no room for "Goal City," no space for "Night and City," and absolutely no room for the absolute masterpiece "Rififi."😕

None of those Jacques Becker titles I mentioned the other day—whether it was "Casque d'or," "Touchez pas au grisbi," or "Le trou"—really hit the mark for me.

When you look back at the 1950s, it feels like there was really only one Akira Kurosawa who truly mattered. You don't see "Rashomon" in 1950—instead, you get the massive impact of "Seven Samurai" in 1954.😕 The way the Golden Age of Japanese cinema was preserved really comes down to how they carefully curated directors like Kenji Mizoguchi and Ozaku here and there. But honestly, if we didn't have the mastery of Akira Kurosawa, things would look very different. It also wouldn't hurt to give some credit to Masaki Kinoshita—his film *Nijushi no hitomi* is absolutely masterful.

It feels like people completely overlook Fellini's work from the 50s. You can't even talk about his legacy without mentioning *I Vitelloni*, *La Strada*, or *Il Bidone*. Even a fellow Pacifist and I were just chatting about how wild it is that so many people tend to ignore early Fellini.

I honestly can't wrap my head around why there isn't any room left for Fred Zinnemann's *High Noon*, Billy Wilder's *Stalag 17*, or even Ingmar Bergman's *The Seventh Seal* and *Wild Strawberries*.
I wouldn't say Ealing Comedies were all that great, to be honest.
Instead of leaning on the big hits like *All About Eve* or *The Barefoot Contessa*, he really could have gone with two much better picks from Mankiewicz—like *No Way Out*, featuring that unforgettable Richard Widmark and Jean Poiret's debut, or even that fantastic spy thriller *Fingers* starring James Mason.
I just didn't feel like pushing myself any further.
I'm saying it once more—Kudos to the author.But personally, I wouldn't be myself if I didn't push things just a little bit.😛

Gregory Howard said:Whether you agree with a particular choice or not—forget about the various
Titanic movies, Let, or even Tarantino and Spielberg, it doesn't matter.

It's hard for me to forget "Let," but honestly, I forgot Titanic five minutes after watching it. Tarantino had his big flash in the 90s, and I won't forget that, but as for Spielberg, I just couldn't care less.
The likes of King Vidor, Frank Capra, John Ford, Howard Hawks, Billy Wilder, Alfred Hitchcock (from the Golden Age of Hollywood), Orson Welles, John Huston, Kazan, Otto Preminger, Vincente Minnelli, William Wyler, Anthony Mann, and then the New Hollywood crowd like Martin Scorsese, Brian De Palma, Peter Bogdanovich, Francis Ford Coppola, Hal Ashby, Robert Altman, and others—I won't easily forget them either... yeah, that's just how things are in America. And I think I missed a few more...

Gregory Howard said:The real heavyweights are names like Kenji Mizoguchi, Orson Welles, Abbas Kiarostami, Robert Bresson, Jean-Luc Godard,
Krzysztof Kieslowski, and Andrei Tarkovsky..

MIZOGUCHI—who always pointed out he was heavily influenced by John Ford and William Wyler.
GODARD AND THE NEW WAVE—do I even need to mention their gods, like Hawks, Welles, Ford, Hitchcock, or Wilder?
Welles is an American.

By the way, I’ve noticed two types of snobs popping up in the film world lately:

1. The video store regulars who refused to watch anything that wasn't American.

2. And more recently, these anti-American clowns who try to tear down American cinema. They don't just go after today's films, which, let's be honest, are mostly mediocre; they attack the entire history of filmmaking. They think it's "cool" to praise Tarkovsky, Ingmar Bergman, or Godard while acting like Ford, Huston, or Kazan are just tacky.
Fuck you, I like them all.
Jessica Nguyen85 Jessica Nguyen85 Active Member
162 messages
joined Jul 2003
#6 ·
Gregory Howard made a list of the best movies. Please tell me he didn't. 😁

Rather than debating the actual movies on this list, I’d much rather talk about the criteria used to get them there in the first place. Honestly, I’m dying to know what kind of logic puts Jim Jarmusch's "Dead Man" and Steven Spielberg's "A.I. Artificial Intelligence" in the same conversation... though seeing that last one makes it pretty obvious how they squeezed silent films like "Greed" onto the list. And then there's Abbas Kiarostami... he feels more like a cultural phenomenon produced by his environment than someone operating at a Leo Tolstoy level of craft. Look, I respect Kiarostami, but three of his films? Come on.

Or why are we seeing "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes," "Love Streams," "F for Fake," and "Eclipse" on here, yet "Blowup" is nowhere to be found?

Then you have four works by Orson Welles. Meanwhile, "The Third Man" is missing. And to top it all off... where is David Lynch?

Like I said, any attempt to establish a cinematic canon—much like you would in literature—should really start with some "full disclosure" regarding the selection process. To me, this whole list just looks like it was thrown together haphazardly, like someone just piling up logs for a bonfire.
wiredbison82 wiredbison82 Active Member
72 messages
joined Mar 2009
#7 ·
A rather irrelevant and somewhat snobbish list. Nothing new here, really.
Austin Collins5 Austin Collins5 Member
11 messages
joined Mar 2010
#8 ·
Gerald Barrett25 said:Someone actually put together a list of the best movies. Please tell me you're joking! 😁

Instead of arguing over the actual movies on this list, I’d much rather talk about the criteria used to pick them in the first place. I mean, I'd really love to know what kind of logic lands Jim Jarmusch's "Dead Man" or Steven Spielberg's "A.I." on here... though seeing that last one makes it pretty obvious how much they're just grabbing silent classics like "Greed" to look smart. And then there's Abbas Kiarostami... he feels more like a cultural phenomenon created by his producers than someone working at a Leo Tolstoy level of craft. I respect Kiarostami, sure, but three of his films on here? Give me a break.

Or why things like "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes," "Love Streams," "F for Fake," and "Eclipse" made the cut while "Blowup" was left out... and so on.

Then you've got four works from Orson Welles. But "The Third Man" isn't even there. And finally... where the hell is David Lynch?

Like I said, any attempt to establish a cinematic canon—the way people do with literature—should probably start with some "full disclosure" regarding the rules. To me, this whole list just looks like it was tossed together like scrap wood for a bonfire.

"Love Streams" is absolute garbage, "F for Fake" is the best Orson Welles work, and if you want to understand why, you'd have to grasp why Abbas Kiarostami is even on this list.

But how am I supposed to explain something to you that you just don't see? It's like trying to sell someone on Medjugorje when they clearly aren't interested.
quietdriver3 quietdriver3 Regular
290 messages
joined Mar 2005
#9 ·
wiredbison82 said:It’s a pretty irrelevant and honestly kind of snobby list. Nothing new there, really.

It’s so incredibly snobby that it almost feels like a joke.

Like, for example, we have '79 where Spielberg shows up with "1941"🤦, but there isn't a single trace of "jaws" or "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" anywhere else in the 70s. I guess the criteria here are just weirdly specific.

Then, if I glance a little further, I stumble upon '81 with "History of the World, Part I"😁 lol, I mean, I love that movie, but reducing the entire Brooks body of work down to just that one film...🙄

Wait, let me go check if he maybe included "Dracula Dead" in his 90s picks too.😁
Austin Collins5 Austin Collins5 Member
11 messages
joined Mar 2010
#10 ·
wiredbison82 said:It’s a pretty snobby list and honestly, totally irrelevant. Nothing new here.

This list is basically just trying to convince some mindless American cinephile that there's actually more to film than their own backyard.

And what you guys are watching is just garbage pushed by the current distribution system. Unfortunately, Americans have the strongest logistics, so even though Europe has plenty of talent, they just don't have the massive capital needed to really compete.

Trust me on this one, I know how it works.
Austin Collins5 Austin Collins5 Member
11 messages
joined Mar 2010
#11 ·
I’ll throw out a few titles that would probably kill it at the AMC if they actually bothered to put them on the regular schedule.

Bathory by Jakubiska
The last two from Sverak
The Last Menzel (I served the King)

But honestly, if you keep feeding the crowd the exact same crap for 30 or 40 years, there's just no chance. It’s way easier to just buy up 100 films at Cannes and call it a day.
Nicholas Walker3 Nicholas Walker3 Active Member
71 messages
joined Mar 2009
#12 ·
I was just wondering—what actually drives you guys to sit down and slog through these lists?
quietdriver3 quietdriver3 Regular
290 messages
joined Mar 2005
#13 ·
Nicholas Walker3 said:I was just wondering, what's actually driving you to sit down and go through these lists?

Honestly, it's pretty much the same feeling I get when I decide to dive into an encyclopedia.
Jessica Nguyen85 Jessica Nguyen85 Active Member
162 messages
joined Jul 2003
#14 ·
Austin Collins5 said:Love Streams is an absolute masterpiece, easily the best. And F for Fake is the definitive Walles. If you actually want to understand why, you’d have to grasp why Kiarostami made the cut.

How am I supposed to explain something to you that you just don't see? It’s like someone trying to sell me on the spiritual wonders of Sedona when I'm just not feeling it.

I was actually a little intimidated by such powerful reasoning 😍

There's nothing worse than fears that stop being imaginary and start becoming a reality. ☕
Jessica Nguyen85 Jessica Nguyen85 Active Member
162 messages
joined Jul 2003
#15 ·
Nicholas Walker3 said:I’m curious—what on earth drives someone to actually sit down and read these lists?

Says the guy whose signature contains... wait for it... an entire list!!!

Restore my faith in PDF Film by "admitting" that quoting me was just a joke. 😳 😁
Mark Wood79 Mark Wood79 Member
49 messages
joined Jul 2010
#16 ·
wiredbison82 said:Honestly, this list feels pretty irrelevant and a bit snobbish to me. There’s nothing new here, either.

quietdriver3 said:It’s so incredibly snobbish that it actually feels like a parody.

Honestly, I’m glad I stopped at the fifties. Now, I’m actually a little nervous just thinking about diving into the sixties, seventies, and beyond.
Donna Gray4 Donna Gray4 Active Member
58 messages
joined Feb 2010
#17 ·
Do everyone just take a second to think about it—go ahead, pull up your top 10 or even your top 20 lists and be honest: isn't it pretty obvious that 90% of them are American? Sure, modern Hollywood hasn't exactly moved an inch from its comfortable spot, but you can still stumble upon a genuine masterpiece every now and then, can't you? It’s not quite like the golden era of the 60s or 70s, but they still exist. Personally, I think American cinema is in a league of its own, though if you follow what Austin Collins5 was saying about branching out into Asian or Italian films, you'll quickly realize there's just as much garbage out there. I used to think French cinematography was untouchable—I swear I could never find a bad film—but once you actually start digging deeper and doing the work, you realize there's plenty of junk to sift through there, too.

Here’s my top 10 list—and just so we're clear, only one of them isn't an American film: *Das Boot*.
Austin Collins5 Austin Collins5 Member
11 messages
joined Mar 2010
#18 ·
Film is a visual medium, plain and simple. To me, *Love Streams* feels like a collection of meaningful snapshots—just take the images you love and stitch them together into a movie. I don't think I've ever seen a more powerful or raw depiction of the differences between men and women, or that strange, flowing energy between them. And honestly, I love Cassavetes because he just absolutely tears his characters apart just to prove they can love.
briskfalcon45 briskfalcon45 Newcomer
5 messages
joined Jul 2010
#19 ·
Gregory Howard said:Chicago Sun critic and theorist Jonathan Rosenbaum

Here is his list of 1,000 essential films:
http://www.alsolikelife.com/FilmDiary/rosenbaum.html

The ones that really stick with me are these... if we're talking about 1,000 essential movies🤦
Mark Wood79 Mark Wood79 Member
49 messages
joined Jul 2010
#20 ·
Dennis Sullivan46 said:It’s probably best if everyone just takes a moment to think about their own personal top 10 or 20 movies.

Inception actually dates all the way back to 1895, not 1995. And honestly, why bother trying to narrow it down to just 10 or 20 titles?

Dennis Sullivan46 said:I’d bet my bottom dollar that 90% of them are American.

That doesn't have to be the case at all. Not even close.

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