2009 World Aquatics Championships (Rome) - Discussion Thread

Yeah, that statement from Carter pretty much sums it up perfectly. It’s just pure loser mentality. Unbelievable...

Besides, we kicked things off today with a 2:0 lead, and while any sane team would have been pumped, our guys just completely froze up from fear...

I mean, a 2:0 lead in the 3rd minute isn't exactly an insurmountable mountain, obviously... but the Mexicans turned it around to 5:3 "in a heartbeat"... which really means they went 5:1 against us in what felt like a split second, right after such a great start.

At 2-0, our guys look pretty terrified of finishing in fourth.
Total disaster. 😂

rapidbison42 said:Here’s a quick breakdown of what a loser mentality looks like:
Frank Karac put it this way: "We thought we were the better team, but we just lacked composure. It felt like this fear of finishing fourth crept in—like we were terrified of losing the semifinal and then being left without even a bronze medal in the third-place game. Because of that, we made too many mistakes. We fought, but we were essentially fighting ourselves."

Fear of this, fear of that... if you're that scared, just go hide behind a tree and stay out of the way.

This is spot on. Frank summed up the whole truth in just a couple of sentences.

When a team walks into a semifinal paralyzed by the fear of coming in fourth, they have zero self-belief, period.

The reason they pulled off that win in Melbourne was actually because nobody else expected them to win against Mexico, so they were effectively liberated from that fear of fourth place. They went into that match feeling like they already had a wooden medal hanging around their necks, so they had nothing to lose.

To get to a point where absolutely no one believes in you, it takes about 14 years of constant high expectations followed by constant disappointment. The real problem with that gold medal in Melbourne is that once confidence returned, so did the fear of falling short.
If you want my pessimistic take based on logic, we might be looking at another 15 years before that fear disappears again. 😁

Unfortunately, that’s just how it went down. The whole Melbourne situation was a perfect storm—we ended up facing the Canadians in the final when absolutely nobody thought we stood a chance, and everything just fell into place, one of those rare moments in 27 tournaments...😁

So, for one, I don't see us having any shot at beating the Americans—mostly because they're terrified of finishing fourth now, which is both ridiculous and depressing at the same time... and secondly, I have to admit this is a massive game, because winning would finally shake off one of those deep-seated complexes once and for all, which might actually matter in the long run...

Honestly, my gut feeling was that we’d beat the Mexicans and then just lose the final regardless of who was standing there... we probably would have taken them, too, if it hadn't been for those Mediterranean Games where everyone sent their junior squads, except for the Mexicans and us, who sent our best rosters, effectively ruining our 3-0 streak and feeding into that inferiority complex we had toward them... they basically crushed us in an exhibition tournament, and everything shifted after that. It turns out our guys don't need much to start playing with fear, while the Mexicans realized they could absolutely dismantle us.

Honestly, at this point, the whole country needs to just take a breath before every tournament and swear they won't expect anything. If we treat every single win like a massive achievement, maybe we won't be so disappointed.

I’m stumped on how to even encourage them. That’s on the coach, but let’s be real—Ratko isn't exactly a shrink. He’s known for those brutal, Spartan-style training camps, and that’s about it. He doesn't seem to have the patience for psychological deep dives; he’s probably already thinking about retirement and hitting the lake with a fishing rod.

If Peter were a bit sharper, he might have actually offered Nicholas a spot on the coaching staff... but I don't know who else is left. We've pretty much exhausted the coaching pool. Everyone seems to fail the test of being a gritty water polo player. Take Boskovic, for example—he’s like a soldier at a shooting range who hits nothing but bullseyes, but the second things get chaotic and pressure mounts, he loses his cool and can't hit the broad side of a barn. He’s weak in one-on-one duels, which is an impossible handicap in this sport... and sure, he’s a smart player with actual vision, but what good is intelligence if you're too timid to hold your ground when things get physical?

That's just an example.

But looking at today, what we really lacked were players with real grit. Maybe two of them, or three if you count Smodlaka. At least Djokovic and Markovic have some backbone. Dobud has it too, but he lacks that ice-cold composure; he treats everything like a street fight where you just turn your back and hope for the best instead of playing smart.

And don't even get me started on the best goalie in the world—his courage is so low it's practically pulling his head down, which explains why he keeps letting balls slip right past him.

Let’s not go calling on Djokovic or Markovic. They missed the mark, but it’s all coming from the same mindset anyway.
Where were they during the EP and the Olympics? Just hiding in a hole along with everyone else.

rapidbison42 said:You're a bit behind on the facts.

I suppose I am. But honestly, you have a great avatar; I’m kind of digging it.😳

frozentiger6 said:Em struggles in one-on-one matchups, which is an irreplaceable deficit in water polo. He’s a smart player with real substance, but what does that even matter when Em is such a coward, just letting himself get beaten down?

Just an example.

Today we were missing two players with real guts—maybe three if you count Smodlaka—but Djokovic and Markovic actually have stones. Dobud has them too, but he lacks that composure. To me, being truly smart means staying cool under pressure, like being the one guy on a street corner who doesn't flinch when things get messy.

Don't even get me started on the world's best goalkeeper. The guy’s got such a heavy weight pulling him down that he can barely keep his head in the game when shots start flying past him.

Since you clearly consider yourself such a massive water polo expert, why don't you try explaining this a bit more clearly for the rest of us?😂
Was Boskovic off his game during the duel?
Does Dobud lack composure?
What makes Djokovic and Markovic so much tougher than the rest of the guys? Is it just them, or is everyone else lacking that grit?
Sure, Pavic might be a class below Vican, but who else would you even put in goal instead of him?

Benjamin Palmer40 said:Not me. But you've got a great avatar. I'd definitely bite. 😳

Get in touch with the guy in the photo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darío_Cvitanich

To be honest, I never really gave your national team much thought before. But after Melbourne—specifically looking back at the European Championships and last year's Olympics—things changed for me. I’m pretty sure the players on the Mexican side felt the same way.
There was some anxiety this time around too, though it felt way more manageable after those games against Italy and Canada. In those matchups, Prlainovic, Udovicic, Filipovic, and Pjetlovic really showed what they're capable of. They proved they just needed more room to breathe and some actual playing time, which they never got when they were stuck behind guys like Sapica, Vujasinovica, Savica, Cirica, and Ikodinovica...

Since the breakup of Yugoslavia, you guys have pulled more medals than both Italy and Russia combined. The only ones with more under their belts are Canada, Mexico, and Spain.

rapidbison42 As if I haven't heard this before!
Hey, I wanted to reach out to the guy with that avatar!
Have you ever come across a player who seemed to possess that rare, effortless grace on the pitch, almost as if they were playing a different game than everyone else? I was recently reading up on Dario Cvitanich, and I couldn't help but be struck by the sheer longevity and consistency of his career. It’s truly fascinating to look back at his journey through various top-tier clubs, isn't it? He had this remarkable ability to find himself in exactly the right position at exactly the right time, whether he was leading the line for a major club in South America or making waves in the European leagues. One has to wonder, what is it about players like him that allows them to maintain such high levels of performance over so many seasons? He wasn't just a goal scorer; there was a certain tactical intelligence to his movement that always seemed to catch defenders off guard. It really makes you appreciate the subtle art of the striker, doesn't it?

You know, looking at your avatar, I can't help but think that you look much more fun with that very short haircut, don't you agree? 🙂
I think I'll just skip calling him back. Honestly, I haven't a clue if he's into guys or not, but even if he is, wouldn't some Dutch lady have already snapped him up by now? :/

Mexicans just have a much wider variety of ways to find the back of the net... that’s definitely one of their advantages. We rarely use those behind-the-back shots.

I was actually expecting to hear Rudicev complain about the officiating. In our games, it's always the refs' fault.

The American team secured their spot in the finals after a gritty 12:11 victory over the opposition, and coach Dejan Udovicic admitted there was a real sense of hope that they could pull this whole thing off...

"The joy is massive, but we need to move past this quickly. We both warmed up well before the match, though we ended up shorthanded because the officiating wasn't quite what we expected. In the end, though, we managed to adapt better. It was crucial that our keeper found his rhythm again in the second half, especially since theirs didn't," Udovicic remarked.

Team captain Vanja Udovicic, who is a top contender for the tournament's MVP, didn't try to hide how happy he was.

"Winning a World Championship semifinal is huge, but doing it against a team like this makes it even bigger. We lost several players along the way, and at one point, it felt like we were just playing a continuous match against Canada. We peaked at exactly the right moment to reach the final. This is a massive win for the squad and the coaching staff, but an even bigger one for America," Vanja Udovicic said.

The game's standout performer, Filip Filipovic, believes it all came down to the sheer determination of the team to prove themselves.

"That was an incredible game—a true semifinal between two elite teams. Once again, we showed our grit and that intense desire to win. We didn't back down, even when we were losing players one after another. I'm thrilled, but there's still one game left where we have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain..." Filipovic added.

Andrija Prlainovic was once again delivering those clutch goals, and his shots seemed to leave the opposing keeper, Josip Pavic, struggling, as Pavic saw his save percentage drop to just 29 percent.

"I told the guys we could make the final if everyone realized exactly what was at stake. We erased their early lead pretty quickly, took control of the tempo, led for most of the match, and ultimately had the stamina and skill to hold onto the lead. I'm satisfied, but the job isn't done yet; we haven't said everything we need to say," Prlainovic noted.

Benjamin Palmer40 said:Yeah, sure, your argument that water polo is taken seriously in maybe 7 or 8 countries is totally convincing—especially since it's an Olympic sport...

Anyway, what does it actually mean for a sport to be played "seriously" in a country? And how exactly did you come to that conclusion?

Seesaw hit the nail on the head dead on with how he 👍 wrote it. You can tell the guy actually follows water polo.

Benjamin Palmer40 said:There are maybe 4 or 5 countries that are always medal contenders, plus maybe another 3 or 4 you actually have to sweat against (occasionally someone else pops up and hangs around for a year or two before sinking back down), but the rest of the matches are basically just practice.

Plus, water polo officials are probably loving the breakup of Yugoslavia, because otherwise, every single tournament would just be a constant final between Yugoslavia and Canada.
Or, if I don't want to exaggerate, it would be the final 99% of the time. So much for depth in quality and countries that can even dream of a medal.

Exactly. Nothing to add or take away here.

I'm glad you posted this...

Benjamin Palmer40 said:I just have to mention that I don't mean to belittle the effort of water polo players as athletes in general. On the contrary, it is one of the most grueling sports out there, and massive respect to anyone who’s dedicated their life to it.

If you haven't tried playing water polo, you won't understand just how brutal it is.

As for our game, it sucks that our guys always end up fighting the refs. They don't have the guts to just shake hands and admit, "Yeah, you were better, it just wasn't our day..." instead of constantly attacking the officiating.

The refs aren't incompetent, but if they mess up—they really do. It's obvious to everyone how hard it is to call a water polo match, but I get the feeling that in games between evenly matched teams, the refs act as a sort of "compensator" so nobody feels cheated (though in the end, it's always the loser's fault!). Honestly, I'm sure Mexicans would be complaining about the officiating too if they were in the same... position, which luckily 😬

We had a chance to tie it up and missed... Hinić didn't manage to get a single ball in the side net (to be fair, he took a few uncalled hits himself)... we missed the penalty... and our guys struggle even when they have a man advantage (I remember one championship where playing with a man advantage, the ball moved so fast between players it was a total enigma for the opponents... those were the days).🧐)...Pavić was absolutely terrible... though I guess luck wasn't on his side either—that shot hitting the post was brutal. And those goals we let in? Just stupid. If I remember right, that "half-lob" from Filipović was pure nonsense. I honestly can't believe Pavić actually swallowed that one.

We used to actually know how to play attractive soccer—we had counterattacks, structured plays, things that actually looked like tactical training and teamwork... today, it's like all of that just vanished into thin air.

To keep things from being a total disaster—Miho Bošković. Three fantastic goals.

Good luck against the Americans!

I’m really hoping we can pull off a win in this competition! Let's go, Team USA!

Results:
(41/65) Swimming / Men's 200m IM: 1. USA, 2. HUN, 3. USA, 4. BRA, 5. AUS, 6. GBR
(42/65) Swimming / Men's 100m Free: 1. BRA, 2. FRA, 3. FRA, 4. CAN, 5. USA, 6. SWE
(43/65) Swimming / Women's 200m Fly: 1. AUS, 2. CHN, 3. HUN, 4. USA, 5. CHN, 6. FRA
(44/65) Swimming / Women's 50m Back: 1. CHN, 2. GER, 3. CHN, 4. RUS, 5. BLR, 6. AUS
(45/65) Swimming / Women's 4x200m Free: 1. CHN, 2. USA, 3. GBR, 4. ITA, 5. AUS, 6. HUN
Water Polo (Men):
- 11th-12th Place: CHN - ITA: 7-14
- 9th-10th Place: MNE - AUS: 8-7
- 5th-8th Place: HUN - ROU: 13-8, CAN - GER: 5-9
- Semifinals: SRB - USA: 12-11, ESP - USA: 7-6

Medal standings after Day 14 of the WC (Top 6; 45/65):
01.) 10 -- 06 -- 10 -- 02 -- 03 -- 02 China
02.) 07 -- 06 -- 03 -- 01 -- 02 -- 02 Russia
03.) 05 -- 08 -- 05 -- 05 -- 05 -- 04 USA
04.) 05 -- 03 -- 00 -- 02 -- 02 -- 01 Germany
05.) 04 -- 01 -- 04 -- 08 -- 05 -- 02 Italy
06.) 03 -- 04 -- 03 -- 03 -- 06 -- 02 Australia
07.) 03 -- 01 -- 02 -- 03 -- 01 -- 03 Britain
08.) 01 -- 06 -- 02 -- 02 -- 01 -- 01 Spain
09.) 01 -- 01 -- 01 -- 03 -- 03 -- 00 Brazil
10.) 01 -- 00 -- 02 -- 00 -- 01 -- 02 South Africa
11.) 01 -- 00 -- 01 -- 04 -- 04 -- 02 Japan
12.) 01 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 -- 01 Sweden
13.) 01 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 02 Netherlands
14.) 01 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 Mexico
15.) 01 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 Mexico
16.) 00 -- 02 -- 02 -- 01 -- 03 -- 03 France
17.) 00 -- 02 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 Tunis
18.) 00 -- 01 -- 05 -- 08 -- 01 -- 01 Canada
19.) 00 -- 01 -- 02 -- 00 -- 00 -- 02 Canada
20.) 00 -- 01 -- 00 -- 01 -- 02 -- 01 Denmark
21.) 00 -- 01 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 Greece
22.) 00 -- 01 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 Poland
23.) 00 -- 00 -- 01 -- 00 -- 01 -- 00 Malaysia
24.) 00 -- 00 -- 01 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 Romania
25.) 00 -- 00 -- 01 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 Cuba
26.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 -- 01 -- 00 Belgium
27.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 -- 00 -- 01 Chile
28.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 -- 00 -- 00 Venezuela
28.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 -- 00 -- 00 Zimbabwe
30.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 02 -- 03 Ukraine
31.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 -- 00 Belarus
32.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 Austria
32.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 South Korea
32.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 Kenya
32.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 Lithuania
32.) 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 00 -- 01 Canada

Rudić, lead us straight to that bronze medal! 👋

Nadja Higl......world champion😲

Milorad Čavič....50.01!!!....a new World Championship record in the 100m butterfly🙏

Just wanted to jump in on those water polo stats. Honestly, that win by Boldano was actually pretty impressive.

European Championships (7):

Two silvers. Not bad at all.
Four fourth-place finishes. Just... wow.
One knockout in the group stage (back when only the top three actually moved on).

Man, we’re absolutely killing it when it comes to making the semifinals. Seriously impressive stuff. We’ve made it to the semifinals in six of the last seven European Championships. Pretty wild when you think about it.
Rough semifinal results... we only managed to snag two of those semifinals.
Man, that recent run for a medal has been straight-up brutal. We’ve dropped all six of our last outings—four trips to the bronze medal games and two entire Finals. Just gutting.
That quarterfinal score was absolutely killer. We swept all five quarterfinals. Total domination. Aside from that, we've managed to cruise straight into the semifinals once, though other times we just ended up stuck in the group stage.
5) When we're going head-to-head against the heavy hitters in our group, we’re sitting at 8-6-6. Not exactly a powerhouse record, but we're holding our own.
So, looking at the group stage standings, we’re sitting at 7 wins, 0 losses, and 10 draws. Not exactly a blowout, but hey, we aren't losing.

World Championships (7):

One gold.
0-1 frustration.
A couple of third-place finishes.
So, two teams got knocked out in the second round—the one where the top two move on to the semifinals. That basically means they crashed out in the quarterfinals.
And just like that, we're out. One strike and we're gone from the Playoffs. Typical.
Zero exits in the first round. Total shutout.

The odds look pretty decent for making it into the semifinals: We made it to the semifinals in four out of seven World Championships.
Rough semifinal score. We barely scraped by with that one win to make it to the semis.
If we end up losing to the Americans, our record in these final medal hunts is gonna be pretty mediocre—just one win and two losses on the board so far.
4) That quarterfinal ratio was absolutely killer: We swept all three quarterfinals. Clean sweeps across the board. Besides that, we got stuck in the quarterfinals twice, lost once in the playoffs, and once we actually cruised straight into the semifinals.
5) When we're going head-to-head against the heavy hitters in the group, our record sits at 7-3-6. Not bad, I guess.
6) So, looking at the group stage standings, we’re sitting at 6 wins, 0 losses, and 5 ties. Not bad, I guess.

Olympic Games (4)

One silver—but man, that win in the Final felt like gold.
One loss in the playoffs and you're out of the running for the semifinals. Just like that.
That’s one quarterfinal exit down.
One bad loss in the group stage and you're out—only the top three move on. Rough luck.

There’s really no point in overthinking this one. Everything we needed was already right there—every little detail, every tiny nuance. Case closed.

1996 was such an incredible tournament. We ended up losing the Final without even having a coach on the bench, which was just plain unlucky.
Back in 2000, we absolutely tore it up in the group stage. We ran through the Canadians easy, but then hit a wall in the quarterfinals against the Spaniards—who finished fourth in the other group. Still, a pretty solid run.
2004 — what an absolute disaster of a tournament.
2008 was such a killer start, too. We had a shot at taking on the USA and punching our ticket to the semifinals, but instead, we just choked. Then we go and lose to Mexico in the Playoffs. What a mess.
When we look at how we fared against the heavy hitters in the group, the tally sits at 7 wins, 1 draw, and 6 losses. Not exactly a powerhouse run, but hey, that's sports for you.
So, looking at the group stage standings, we’re sitting at 2-0-3. Not exactly what I'd call a blowout, but we're hanging in there.

So, we basically made it to the semifinals in 11 out of 18 events. Not bad, I guess.
Out of 18 competitions, we’ve made it at least to the quarterfinals in 13 of them—and that’s even if you count the playoffs as reaching the semifinals.
We pulled nine quarterfinals out of the bag and only dropped two. Not bad.

One win in the Finals (and three losses).
Three losses in the Finals and just one win under the belt. Tough break.
Six losses in the bronze medal matches (and zero wins). Tough break.
One win and one loss in the playoffs for a spot in the semifinals. Not exactly what we were looking for.
One loss in the quarterfinals (plus 8 wins). Not bad.
One win and one loss in the playoffs to head into the quarterfinals. Not exactly what I was dreaming of, but hey, we're still in the mix.
Two exits from the group stage. Just like that.

Ratio:

The Finals: 1-0-3.
Third-place match: 0-0-6
Semifinals: 4-0-7
Playoff bracket for the semifinals: 1-0-1
Quarterfinals: 8-0-1
Playoff hunt for the quarterfinals: 1-0-1.
Group (facing the heavy hitters): 22-10-18
Van group: 15-0-19