Dealing with Paroxysmal Supraventricular Tachycardia (PSVT)

Does anyone else here deal with supraventricular tachycardia? I was previously on Con Cor at 1.25 mg, but they've bumped me up to 2.5 mg. How are you all managing this arrhythmia, and just how dangerous is it really? My doctor insists it’s absolutely nothing to worry about, but I’d love to hear some actual experiences from people who get it.
Thanks.

Look, when you compare it to a VENTRICULAR... it’s hardly dangerous...

Sophia Thomas77 said:I mean, when you compare it to VENTRICULAR... it’s really not that dangerous...

😕 Could someone please provide a bit of an explanation here?

Here’s an analogy for ventricular issues. Imagine if your heart chambers were just hammering away at 120 beats per minute for an extended stretch. You wouldn't be able to pump blood effectively, which means you can't maintain steady circulation... and that triggers a massive chain reaction of problems. If that ventricular tachycardia spirals into ventricular fibrillation, then you're looking at the devil himself—cardiac arrest. At that point, you're stuck unless Dr. Kovach happens to be nearby. Though, personally, I’d prefer a doctor like House.
As for atrial tachycardia... or supraventricular issues... they're mostly just a nuisance. It's less about immediate danger and more about that uncomfortable pounding in your chest, the weakness, or just the sheer anxiety of it all.

Thanks, at least I’ll be feeling a bit less of that anxiety you mentioned!

I’m assuming your diagnosis is "supraventricular paroxysmal tachycardia"?
(There are different types... like atrial tachycardia with block, etc.)
Sudden racing heart? But rhythmic? And usually stops just as abruptly as it started?

I won't get into the underlying mechanics...

What I am saying is that this typically affects healthy people. These episodes can recur for years without ever showing any actual heart disease...
Mind you, for someone who already has existing heart disease, this kind of atrial chaos can lead to serious symptoms.😲
Even healthy people feel weakness or dizziness. When the atria decide to throw a party, stroke volume drops, which leads to a drop in blood pressure.
I see you were prescribed a beta-blocker to keep the tachycardia in check... but there are other methods too... like vagus nerve stimulation.
Anyway... good luck... better to deal with tachycardia than some other real illness...🙂

Bringing this thread back from the dead because I have a few questions.

So, I've been dealing with paroxysmal supraventricular tachycardia for years, but they didn't actually diagnose me until four years ago. Every single time, the "speed" would drop and the tachycardia would stop itself before I could even get through the door at the ER, so they'd just run an ECG and dismiss it as an anxiety disorder or something similar. Four years ago, though, a bout caught me right near a heart clinic in downtown Chicago, so they actually managed to catch it on the ECG. They told me I needed to see a specialist, either Dr. Miller or Dr. Smith.

I was also taking Concor 1.25mg, but my blood pressure is naturally low, and the Concor was driving it even lower—not that the tachy episodes were any less frequent without it. My cardiologist eventually told me I could stop taking the medication.

I saw Dr. Miller at the hospital, and his take is that since I’m dealing with narrow QRS complexes during these episodes, I should undergo RF ablation.
He gave me the whole rundown—explained everything in detail, went over the risks, how successful it is, blah blah blah...

Since it wasn't life-threatening and I was busy grinding through college at the time, we agreed I’d schedule the procedure for later...
Well, "later" turned into four years. 😬 😳 Part of it was because I didn't have supplemental insurance for a while and the procedure is expensive... plus my own laziness, being irresponsible, and that habit of putting things off until the last second. Besides, the attacks were rare anyway. The last one was about a year and a half ago, which I stopped using a Valsalva maneuver.

Anyway, I've finally decided to go through with the RF ablation. I'm trying to call the number he gave me to book it, but no one is picking up.
Does anyone else here deal with this kind of tachycardia? Has anyone gone through RF ablation? With which doctor? I'm looking for personal experiences.

Honestly, I think your best bet is to reach out to the Magdalena clinic. Dr. Robert Bernat is pretty much the go-to guy for RF ablation—he’s super successful and everyone seems to rave about him... plus, they take patients through Medicare too.

I actually have an appointment scheduled with him myself, and he suggested we go ahead with
an RF ablation (though my own issues are a bit more complicated...), but we need to run a few tests first.

From what I gather, you'll just be paying out of pocket for the initial checkup (maybe around $100) but everything else should be covered by Medicare.

gentledriver11 said:I think your best bet is calling the Magdalena clinic. Dr. Robert Bernat is well-known for doing RF ablation—really successful guy, everyone raves about him. Plus, they take patients through
Medicare.

I have an appointment scheduled with him myself, and he also suggested we go ahead with the
RF ablation (though my issues are a bit more complex), but I need some preliminary tests first.

From what I know, you'll just need to pay for the initial exam (around $100), and then everything else is covered by Medicare.

Thanks for the info!!!

Buljevic is also known for that (and for his work with Cayman 😬). I've actually seen him before, and he was recommended to me at the heart center... but if I can't get hold of him, I'll definitely head to Dr. Bernat.

Sophia Thomas77 said:Here is an example regarding ventricular issues. Imagine if your heart chambers were racing at about 120 beats per minute for an extended period. They simply can't pump blood effectively or maintain steady circulation, which unfortunately triggers a whole cascade of other complications.

Well, it isn't strictly limited to ventricular issues; this phenomenon can occur with several different types of tachycardia as well. When those heart chambers start racing at such high speeds, they lose the ability to pump blood properly and sustain normal circulation. However, I was wondering what specifically makes ventricular tachy really unique? If I recall correctly, an electrical impulse is generated within the chambers, whereas normally that signal should originate in the... oh, I seem to have forgotten the specific term for it 😁. It seems these cells located in the ventricles aren't quite suited for generating a directed, organized pulse, which is why things can easily descend into chaos, or fibrillation. I am certainly no expert, so please don't take my word as gospel.

So, a good while back, I got diagnosed with paroxysmal supraventricular tachycardia. Basically, they told me I was born with it. I’ve been managing things with Isoptin 80 since 2007. About a week ago, my doctor switched me over to Rhythmol, but man, it’s just not working for me... it feels like this burning sensation right around my heart, plus my heart won't stop racing. I finally bit the bullet and told my doctor today, so she put me back on the Isoptin.
The real kicker, though, is that I heard they’re planning to pull this specific drug from the market soon—and there isn't even a direct substitute available, since the active ingredient is verapamil... which leaves me in a bit of a bind.
Has anyone else here dealing with the same diagnosis found a decent alternative? What are you all taking instead?
They also mentioned that if the meds don't cut it, my next step might be an ablation. Has anyone actually gone through that process? Any insights would be huge...
Thanks!

Susan Sanchez61 said:A few years back, I was diagnosed with paroxysmal supraventricular tachycardia. Apparently, it’s just how I was born. I’ve been on Isoptin 80 since 2007. Last week, they switched me over to Rhythmol, but it’s not sitting right—I get this burning sensation near my heart and constant palpitations. I told my doctor today, and she put me back on Isoptin.
The issue is that they announced this drug is being discontinued, and there isn't a direct substitute—the active ingredient, verapamil, isn't available.
Does anyone else have the same diagnosis? What are you using instead?
They suggested an ablation if the pills don't work out. Anyone here gone through that?
Thanks!

So, here’s the thing: PSVT is a pretty broad diagnosis. There are several types of tachycardia—usually it's WPW or AVNRT (basically a tiny bundle in your heart sending wrong impulses, which triggers the tachycardia)—and you find out which one it is via an electrophysiology study. That’s the procedure where they test the heart's electrical conductivity. It shows exactly where that bundle is located. If you're a good candidate for ablation, they'll suggest doing it, sometimes even right then and there. The procedure is fairly safe—complications are almost non-existent, I guess.

Susan Sanchez61 said:A good few years back, I was diagnosed with paroxysmal supraventricular tachycardia. They told me it’s just how I was born. I’ve been on Isoptin 80 since 2007. About a week ago, my doctor switched me over to Rhythmol, but man, it just doesn't sit right with me—it feels like this burning sensation around my heart and my pulse is just constantly racing. I mentioned it to my doctor today, and she put me back on Isoptin.
The catch is that I heard they might be discontinuing this specific medication, and there isn't a direct replacement available—since the active ingredient is verapamil, and that's hard to find.
Does anyone else here dealing with the same diagnosis know what they're using instead?
They also floated the idea of an ablation if the pills don't do the trick. Has anyone actually gone through that?
Thanks!

I haven't seen any official word about verapamil being discontinued (and honestly, even if there was, that sounds a bit off), because it would be pretty wild to pull such a useful and valuable drug from the market, especially considering how much it helps with both chronic arrhythmias and certain acute tachyarrhythmias.
Now, Rhythmol (propafenone) is a solid med, but like pretty much any antiarrhythmic, while it "fixes" one type of rhythm issue, it can sometimes inadvertently trigger another. It’s a shame an ECG wasn't taken right when you were feeling lousy, because that would have cleared up a lot of the mystery. Usually, it takes a bit of trial and error with different antiarrhythmics to find the one that actually clicks with your system.
As for the ablation, it’s generally a highly successful procedure, and we have a few top-tier medical centers here in the States where they do them quite well.
I’m a little skeptical about the whole WPW thing, though; it wouldn't make much sense for a doctor to recommend verapamil if that was actually the case.

Douglas Ross10 said:Look—PSVT is a pretty broad diagnosis. There are different types of tachycardia—usually it's WPW or AVNRT (basically a tiny cluster in your heart sending out rogue electrical signals that trigger the tachycardia)—and you find out which one it is through an EP study. That’s a procedure where they test your heart's electrical conductivity to pinpoint exactly where that "cluster" is hiding. If it's a good candidate for ablation, they'll suggest an ablation, which can often be done right then and there. It's a pretty safe procedure—almost zero complications.

Ugh, tell me about it... I have tachycardia too. I've tried basically every drug under the sun—nothing works. Now I'm 20 weeks pregnant and it's hitting me constantly. During the day I'm okay, but lately, it happens while I'm sleeping—I just jerk awake and my heart starts racing like crazy. Most times I can handle it myself, but the last two times I ended up in the ICU. Of course, they can't give me anything except Betalock ZOK 25mg once a day. I've decided that once I give birth, I'm finally going in for that procedure. I'm 20 weeks along and it's already hit me 9 times... and at all hours, like 3 or 4 in the morning. I'm honestly getting sick of this thing. Which doctor does this, and what hospital should I go to? Thanks for any info.

And before I got pregnant, Isoptin via IV worked best for me... but now I can't touch it.

It’s somewhat surprising how quiet this thread remains, especially since they say so many people are dealing with this these days. My diagnosis is AVNRT.
In all my time navigating this, I’ve already undergone three ablations—two over at Magdalena with Dr. Robert Bernat and one with Dr. Anić down in Miami—yet these tachycardias just keep resurfacing. I’ve actually become quite proficient at recognizing them and stopping them myself quite quickly, but getting rid of them for good feels like chasing a ghost. It’s an incredibly unsettling cycle; I’ll have a week where I’m hit with three or four episodes, and then suddenly everything goes quiet for about three months before the whole ordeal starts all over again. Currently, I’m taking Byol Cor once a day at 1.25mg. Whether it’s actually doing anything is anyone's guess; honestly, I suspect the attacks might even be more frequent if I weren't on it. The only thing that truly keeps me in check is propafenone 2 x150 mg. When I rely on that, the tachycardia only flares up maybe once every six months, which is fine, but it’s hard to adjust to a rhythm when you've grown used to constant instability. That said, I try to avoid the propafenone because I've been told it can be harmful, even though I haven't experienced any side effects personally. Has anyone else gone through something similar?

Two years ago, I underwent RF ablation with Dr. Anić in San Diego. It successfully resolved my VES-ica issues, which had reached 15,000 daily before the procedure. Since then, I have experienced occasional SVES-ica—a few hundred a day—nothing major, though I did return to beta blockers following an earthquake. Two days ago, however, I experienced my first episode of tachycardia. It was terrifying; I genuinely thought I was dying. I have dealt with heart issues for years, and even ablation isn't exactly a trip to the dentist, but I have never felt fear like this. Emergency services arrived after I took a beta blocker, and things stabilized within an hour. The ER staff diagnosed it as paroxysmal tachycardia and told me to call them if it happens again. Now, I am paralyzed by fear and cannot leave my house for fear of an episode occurring in public. Does anyone have advice or words of comfort?

Drew Martin3 said:Two years ago, I had an RF ablation performed by Dr. Anić in San Diego, and it was a success—I finally got rid of those VES-icas (they were hitting 15,000 a day, non-stop, before the procedure). Since then, I’ve dealt with a few hundred SVES-icas daily, nothing major, though I did have to go back on beta blockers after that earthquake hit. But two days ago, a bout of tachycardia hit me out of nowhere, and I absolutely lost it. I honestly thought I was dying. I’ve been through quite a bit with my heart over the years (and let’s be real, an ablation isn't exactly like a trip to the dentist—having someone poking around your heart for hours is intense), but I have never felt fear like this. The paramedics arrived, and since I had already taken a beta blocker, things started settling down within an hour. The guys from the ER told me it was paroxysmal tachycardia and said if it happens again, call them back. Now, I've been living in terror for two days straight; I can't even leave the house because I'm terrified it'll strike while I'm out in public. Does anyone have any advice or even just some kind words?

It doesn't matter much anyway, since the "lockdown" is based on strength. Given that it's completely unclear which specific type of paroxysmal SVT we're dealing with here—could be AVNRT, AVRT, FAT, AFib, UA, an aggressive sinus tachycardia, or maybe even a narrow complex VT—the only real consolation is if that tachycardia gets captured on a 12-lead ECG. If it does, it'll be much easier to perform an ablation if these episodes start happening frequently.

Drew Martin3 said:Two years ago, I underwent an RF ablation performed by Dr. Anić in San Diego, which successfully managed my VES-ica issues—before the procedure, those things were hitting upwards of 15,000 a day, just relentless. Since then, I’ve dealt with a handful of SVES-ica, maybe a few hundred daily, nothing particularly dramatic, though I did find myself returning to beta blockers after an earthquake hit recently. However, two days ago, I was struck by tachycardia for the first time, and I honestly spiraled into a total panic. I genuinely thought I was dying. I’ve certainly endured quite a bit regarding my heart over the years (and let’s be honest, an ablation isn't exactly like a routine trip to the dentist; having someone tinker with your actual heart for several hours is no small feat), but I have never felt terror quite like this. The EMTs arrived, and since I had already taken a beta blocker, things started settling down within an hour. The guys from the ER told me it was paroxysmal tachycardia and advised me to call them back if it happens again. Now, I’ve spent the last two days paralyzed by fear, barely daring to step foot outside because I’m terrified it will strike while I'm out on the street. Does anyone have any advice, or perhaps just a few comforting words?

I’m a little confused here; it sounds like you went in for the ablation due to the VES-ica rather than the tachycardia. To be perfectly honest, I wasn't even aware they performed ablations for that, given that unlike the tachycardia you described, VES-ica doesn't usually have a singular underlying cause—it's mostly psychological unless there's some structural issue with the heart itself.
As for the tachycardia you mentioned, I’ve been dealing with that for ten years now, and it has happened to me everywhere. In recent years, I’ve simply learned how to coexist with it; I can't even remember the last time I ended up in the ER because I've become proficient at stopping it within minutes of onset. I've actually undergone three unsuccessful ablations myself.
Taking magnesium helps me quite a bit.

brightgull95 said:It hardly matters, because the "lockdown" is already in effect. Given the total ambiguity surrounding which specific type of paroxysmal SVT we are dealing with—whether it’s AVNRT, AVRT, FAT, AFib, UA, an aggressive sinus tachycardia, or perhaps even a narrow-complex VT—the only shred of comfort lies in whether that tachycardia was captured on a standard 12-lead ECG. If it was, identifying the target becomes significantly more manageable should they decide to proceed with an ablation due to frequent recurrences.

Well, if it were VT, I suppose we would have certainly spotted it on the ECG.
Regarding the ECG, this particular variety is precisely the kind of thing you can't just spot through a routine reading; it’s something that remains invisible until they perform a full electrophysiology study. Furthermore, if the patient is headed for an ablation, the method used to record the initial tachycardia is ultimately irrelevant. Once they are actually in the procedure, the specialists will induce the arrhythmia themselves and terminate it immediately, providing them with the clearest possible picture right when it counts most.

I honestly don't know how people can just sit there and act like this isn't a massive issue. It’s infuriating! You see these discussions going around, everyone acting all calm and collected, while the reality of the situation is a complete mess. I've been watching these threads for a while now, and the lack of urgency is just staggering. We are talking about serious stuff here—real consequences—and yet the response is always some lukewarm, half-hearted comment. It makes my blood boil! And don't even get me started on the "experts" who chime in with their supposed wisdom. They provide zero actual help, just more noise to clutter up the conversation. It's like they aren't even listening to what's actually being said. I'm tired of seeing the same mistakes repeated over and over again because nobody wants to take a stand or address the elephant in the room. If we don't start being direct and honest about these problems, we're just spinning our wheels in the mud. Enough is enough! The user says:
I’m honestly a bit confused here. You guys went in for an ablation because of the VES-ica, not tachycardia? To be perfectly honest, I had no idea they even performed ablations for that.

So now you finally realize that what we call a VES is actually known globally as a PVC. It’s funny how these things work—you think you have your own terminology, and then you find out the rest of the world has been using a different label for the exact same thing all along.So, let’s talk about those damn premature ventricular complexes—or PVCs, for those of us who aren't doctors. Honestly, it’s enough to drive anyone up the wall. You're just sitting there, minding your own business, maybe grabbing a coffee in Chicago or driving down to San Diego, and suddenly—*thump*. There it is. That sudden, jarring skip in your chest that feels like your heart just decided to take an unscheduled vacation. It’s infuriating. You go to the doctor, they run an ECG, they tell you it’s "probably nothing," and then they hand you a prescription for propafenone 2 x150 and send you on your way. "Don't worry about it," they say, while you're lying awake at 3:00 AM wondering if your heart is actually going to decide to quit on you mid-sentence. It’s maddening! And don't even get me started on the anxiety loop. You feel a VES-ica, you panic, the panic makes your heart race, which triggers *more* VES-ica, and suddenly you're convinced you need an immediate ablation just to feel normal again. I’ve seen people jumping from one specialist to another, moving from Medicare coverage discussions to searching for the latest clinical trials on Rhythmol, all because they can't shake that feeling of impending doom. I’m not saying everyone should freak out, but can we at least acknowledge how unsettling this is? It isn't just a "glitch." It's a constant, rhythmic reminder that your body is acting up. It’s exhausting. One minute you’re fine, the next you’re staring at the ceiling, waiting for the next thump. It’s enough to make anyone lose their cool.That could be a clear sign that an ablation is on the table.

file:///C:/Users/Haus/AppData/Local/Temp/2019%20Catheter%20Ablation%20of%20VA-1.pdf

Page 29—right there, specifically regarding the indications for a VES or PVC ablation.

I honestly don't know how much more I can take with this entire situation. It’s just one thing after another, isn't it? You try to follow the rules, you try to do everything by the book, and then—BAM—everything falls apart because of some bureaucratic nonsense or a medical hiccup that nobody saw coming. And don't even get me started on what happened during my last checkup. I'm sitting there, waiting around, feeling like my heart is doing its own little drum solo, and the doctors act like it's nothing! "Oh, it's just a minor irregularity," they say. Minor?! Tell that to my anxiety levels! I've been dealing with these VES-icas for weeks now, and every time I look at an ECG, I feel like I'm staring at a roadmap to a nervous breakdown. I was reading what Gerald Patel42 said earlier about managing the stress, and while I get the sentiment, it's easier said than done when you're actually living through the palpitations. It’s not just "stress," it's physiological! Then there's the medication dance. One day I'm on propafenone, the next I'm wondering if the dosage is actually doing anything or if I'm just swallowing expensive sugar pills. I've been prescribed propafenone 2 x150, but does anyone actually feel like it stabilizes things? Or am I just spinning my wheels here? It feels like a constant uphill battle against my own body and a healthcare system that treats you like a number on a spreadsheet. I'm exhausted. Truly. Just... exhausted. kaže:
Look, let's be real here—unlike the specific tachycardia we were just discussing, these VES-icas don't usually have some massive underlying cause. Most of the time, it’s purely psychological stuff, or at the very least, it's not like there's some major structural defect in the heart itself.

And you're also going to have to learn about VES/PVCs—especially if they become frequent enough to trigger that cardiomyopathy people talk about (which is caused by intracellular calcium leaking from the endoplasmic reticulum and all that nonsense). I don't have any information on that. It’s right there in the myocardium itself. That's where the root of the problem lies.

I honestly don't know how much more of this I can take. Every time I log on here, it's the same endless cycle of misinformation and people acting like they have a medical degree when they clearly don't. It’s exhausting! And then you see people like Gerald Patel42 jumping in with "advice" that is basically just guesswork. How can anyone take this seriously? We are talking about heart health, for heaven's sake! This isn't some trivial hobby; it's our lives we're discussing. I was reading through some of the recent threads—and yes, I read them all, even the ones that make my blood boil—and the sheer level of confusion regarding medication protocols is staggering. People are tossing around names of drugs like they're candy, ignoring the actual dosage instructions provided by their doctors. It's reckless. It's absolutely reckless. I've had my own struggles with managing everything, dealing with the constant monitoring, the ECG readings that look like a mess one day and fine the next... it's enough to drive anyone to the brink. But seeing others treat this like a casual chat over coffee at a diner in San Diego? It makes me want to scream. We need more rigor and less rambling. Period. kaže:
Look, if we're talking about VT, you'd definitely see that on an ECG. There's no way around it.

Read what I actually wrote. For crying out loud, try to understand what’s being said here! Ventricular Tachycardia with a narrow QRS complex... seriously? Are we even talking about the same thing anymore? It’s almost an oxymoron at this point! If the QRS is narrow, you're looking at supraventricular issues, but if the doctors are calling it VT, they're either playing word games or someone's reading the ECG wrong. It makes my blood boil when clinical terminology gets tossed around like confetti without any actual logic behind it. You can't just slap "VT" on a narrow complex and expect anyone with half a brain to take it seriously. It's nonsensical!Look, you know how it works—that fascicular issue, which typically responds to selective calcium channel blockers for the heart, unlike... actually, why am I even bothering to write this out? You obviously know more about this than I do, better than me and frankly better than any electrophysiologist in the entire country!

I honestly don't have the patience for this anymore. Every time I think we're getting somewhere with these discussions, someone brings up some half-baked theory that makes zero sense. It’s exhausting. You see people posting these "expert" opinions on the forum, acting like they actually understand how the medical system works here in the States, and it just drives me up the wall! And don't even get me started on the medication protocols. People are tossing around names like they're reading from a textbook, but there's absolutely no nuance. We aren't talking about simple over-the-counter stuff; we're talking about serious prescriptions. If you can't respect the complexity of the situation, why are you even participating? It feels like a circus sometimes. I'm sitting here trying to make sense of my own health data—looking at ECG results, worrying about potential VES-ica episodes, dealing with the sheer bureaucracy of Medicare—and I have to wade through this nonsense? Unbelievable. kaže:
Regarding the ECG results... I mean, seriously? This is just... this is it. This is the end of the line. I can't even deal with this right now. Look, that’s the thing—you can’t just see that kind of stuff on a standard test. It’s not something you're going to catch with a basic glance; you won't know for sure until they actually run an electrophysiology study. That's the only way to get the real picture.

I can't even begin to deal with this... This is absolutely ridiculous!? 🤔

I don't even know where to start with this mess. It’s absolutely infuriating how little common sense seems to be left in the medical community lately. You see these discussions happening, people throwing around terms they barely understand, and it just makes my blood boil. And then there’s the sheer incompetence when it comes to managing basic medications. I was looking at some notes regarding propafenone—specifically the propafenone 2 x150 dosage—and it’s just maddening how inconsistent the guidance can be. One minute you're told one thing, the next, the protocols seem to shift like sand. It’s not just annoying; it’s dangerous. I saw what Gerald Patel42 was saying earlier, and honestly? I have to disagree. It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and offer "advice," but until you've actually dealt with the headache of navigating the healthcare system here in the States, you shouldn't be so quick to judge. Dealing with Medicare isn't exactly a walk in the park either, let alone trying to coordinate follow-ups after an ablation. Everything is such a bureaucratic nightmare! It feels like we're all just spinning our wheels. One day you're monitoring a VES-ica on an ECG, feeling like you have a handle on things, and the next, you're staring at a prescription for Rhythmol or Isoptin wondering if anyone actually knows what they're doing. It’s exhausting. We need actual clarity, not more fragmented, half-baked opinions from people who haven't spent a single night awake worrying about their heart rhythm. kaže:
And look, if you’re already heading in for an ablation, it honestly doesn't matter how the tachycardia was recorded in the first place. It's irrelevant! Once they actually get in there for the procedure, they’ll trigger it themselves to see exactly what they're dealing with—they'll induce it and then shut it down right then and there. That's how it works.

Oh, absolutely. 🤦