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Fahrenheit 9/11

Started by Laura Evans3 · · 👁 6 views · 82 replies

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Participants Laura Evans3Richard Hernandez13rowdyfox12northerntrucker2boldhound8Morgan WrightLarry Martinez6Donna Nelson23Christian Sanchez44Richard Fox632nimblemarlin17Paul Mendoza8Jeremy Flores10Jacob Howard2brighttiger6Mark Kelly19Ethan Perez97cosmicmarlin67Keith Chavez7casualotter21nimbleskipper17northerncrane4ruggedjackal46urbanhawk28 …
casualotter21 casualotter21 Regular
264 messages
joined Feb 2003
#41 ·
I found the movie quite engaging, though I don't approach works like 11>> or > as strict documentaries; rather, I view them as cinematic essays. You know those columns > writes for >? That’s essentially the vibe I get from > documentaries. He is entertaining and charismatic, which I appreciate, yet I never get the impression that he is attempting to be as objective as a documentary filmmaker ideally ought to be. > has his own specific perspective and critique of the American reality, which may or may not be entirely accurate. Consequently, whenever I watch his films, as much as I enjoy them, two questions always dampen my enthusiasm:

1) Are these films actually good because they are informative, or simply because they cater to our own chauvinistic prejudices about Americans?

2) One wonders how such an engaging and provocative director would fare in a place like London if he attempted to describe the crimes of the British Army or mock supporters of [[placeholder_equivalent_to_Gotovina]]. Americans, regardless of their flaws, at least have > and they let him do his thing.
ruggedjackal46 ruggedjackal46 Regular
775 messages
joined May 2007
#42 ·
Jeremy Flores10 said:After watching the movie, I couldn't tell if all Americans are actually as clueless as they look, or if it was just the specific people Michael Moore chose to film. If it's the latter, 😁where on earth do you even find people like that?

It’s pretty obvious that more than half of the country was acting completely mindless when Bush got re-elected.
Personally, I wasn't exactly blown away by the film itself—and honestly, Moore tends to get under my skin—but it serves a purpose. It highlights just how much damage a guy like Bush can do. You really should be showing clips of him on national TV every single week just to keep everyone grounded in reality.
casualotter21 casualotter21 Regular
264 messages
joined Feb 2003
#43 ·
northerncrane4 said:And Moore employs a fundamentally different technique altogether.

I hate to admit it, but that’s actually a pretty sharp observation.
rowdyfox12 rowdyfox12 Member
27 messages
joined May 2006
#44 ·
cosmicmarlin67 said:Give me a break, stop acting like you know everything...
I can't believe how many of you fell for that "stupid coincidence" theory about Fahrenheit 9/11 airing on September 11th.
Clearly, nobody here is actually informed.
The Twin Towers attack happened on September 11th. In the US, they don't write dates like we do; it's month first, then day—September the eleventh.
So cut the crap.
The issue isn't that you don't understand their date format (which is trivial), it's that you don't even realize when one of the biggest events in history actually took place...
Kudos to ABC for airing the documentary. On the actual date.

Are you a little confused? Who said anything about the date being September 9th? We all know how Americans write dates... I have no idea what you're even trying to say.
urbanhawk28 urbanhawk28 Member
31 messages
joined Apr 2019
#45 ·
That film was relevant a year ago; it should have been aired back then, but you needed guts for that. Now that everything mentioned has become common knowledge, showing it makes no sense at all, unless it's just to soothe the consciences of the duty editors at ABC.

All I want to know is when someone will actually dare to make an investigative documentary about one of our many scandalous topics (the Hague's pro-Mexican policies, the fall of El Paso, the sale of Posavina, Harmon's criminal legacy, privatization, or perhaps the role of US Secretary Baker and Bush Sr. in fueling the aggression against America, to avoid getting bogged down in international politics, etc., etc.)...

We are a nation of opportunists and cowards; and our films are just like us, with a few exceptions...
northerncrane4 northerncrane4 Regular
384 messages
joined Aug 2005
#46 ·
urbanhawk28 said:I’m just wondering when someone will finally have the guts to make an investigative documentary about one of our many scandalous local issues.

Please—we already have our own bearded, overweight guy tackling "controversial topics" with that exact same level of objectivity.
cosmicmarlin67 cosmicmarlin67 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Sep 2005
#47 ·
Who actually brought up September 11th?
Well, nobody said it outright, I guess.
But maybe I really am just "clueless as they come," because I honestly don't get why people were laughing so hard in those early threads—acting like it was some big joke that ABC would air Fahrenheit 9/11 right on the anniversary of September 11th...
What exactly was the punchline there?
Come on, someone please explain it to me, since you all are clearly the brightest minds of our generation.
northerncrane4 northerncrane4 Regular
384 messages
joined Aug 2005
#48 ·
cosmicmarlin67 said:I guess I really am "as dumb as they come."

Yeah. Case closed.
Jeremy Flores10 Jeremy Flores10 Active Member
58 messages
joined Dec 2010
#49 ·
cosmicmarlin67 said:Maybe I really am "clueless," because I don't get why everyone in those first posts was laughing so hard. They thought it was hilarious that ABC aired Fahrenheit 9/11 on September 11th...
What exactly was the joke there?
Go ahead, explain it to someone "clueless" like me, since you all are such geniuses.

Are you just not getting the dark humor here?
Nobody said September 11th itself is funny. It’s the timing of the broadcast that's the joke. The sheer "audacity" of ABC airing that specific film on one of the darkest days in American history. Plus, the movie is basically an indictment of Bush. Get it?
That's where the dark humor comes from!
rowdyfox12 rowdyfox12 Member
27 messages
joined May 2006
#50 ·
Irony, sarcasm, and all these spikes... just another quiz..
Richard Hernandez13 Richard Hernandez13 Regular
269 messages
joined May 2004
#51 ·
casualotter21 said:I actually find him pretty entertaining and charismatic, which I love, but I don't get the feeling for one second that he’s trying to be any more objective than he absolutely ought to be in his documentaries.

I have to disagree with you there.
There isn't some universal rule stating that documentaries "ideally need to be objective." That's more of a standard for journalists or historians.
A film is a completely different beast altogether. The moment you hit record, you've already embraced subjectivity.
northerncrane4 northerncrane4 Regular
384 messages
joined Aug 2005
#52 ·
Richard Hernandez13 said:There’s nothing stating that documentaries "ideally ought to be objective." That applies to journalists and historians.
A film is a different beast entirely. You become subjective the second you turn that camera on.

Of course they "ideally ought to be objective." Subjectivity doesn't just start when you hit record—it starts when you pick up a pen or sit down at a keyboard. You're subjective because you're human. Ideally, documentaries should be objective. The very root of the word is "document." Audiences expect documentaries to be objective. And that's precisely why they're so easy to manipulate—something Michael Moore knows perfectly well and exploits without shame.
casualotter21 casualotter21 Regular
264 messages
joined Feb 2003
#53 ·
Richard Hernandez13 said:That isn't quite right.
It's never been stated that documentaries "ideally must be objective."

<shrug>
I am referring to my own personal taste. Official definitions aren't really my concern.
That’s the difference between journalists and historians. A film is an entirely different beast; you become subjective the very moment you turn on the camera.

In this particular instance, I find myself agreeing with northerncrane4. Humans are inherently subjective creatures. If anything, that serves as more reason for an author to at least attempt to provide a somewhat balanced view of an event. We all know they won't succeed, but it would be nice if they tried.

In my opinion, Michael Moore doesn't even bother attempting to be objective. However, I suppose I have to admit that his lack of objectivity is part of what makes his work entertaining for me. What I *don't* do with his films is take them at face value.
Laura Evans3 Laura Evans3 MemberOP
47 messages
joined Dec 2008
#54 ·
cosmicmarlin67 said:Honestly, please stop acting like you know better...
I am genuinely stunned by how many of you fell for this supposed "stupid coincidence" regarding Fahrenheit 9/11 airing on September 11th.
It’s clear some people aren't paying attention.
The attacks on the Twin Towers happened on September 11th. In the US, we write dates as month then day—September the eleventh. It wasn't some mysterious scheduling error.
So cut the crap.
The issue isn't just about how people format dates; it's more embarrassing that you don't even realize when such a massive historical event actually took place...
Kudos to ABC for airing the documentary on the actual anniversary.

Bravo, seriously... 🙏

This is peak stupidity right here... 😁
Donna Nelson23 Donna Nelson23 Active Member
91 messages
joined Dec 2004
#55 ·
urbanhawk28 said:That movie was relevant a year ago—it should have been aired back then, if anyone had actually had the guts to do it. Now that everything mentioned in it has become common knowledge, showing it seems pointless, unless it's just to soothe the consciences of those TV executives.

A year ago, the film was still playing in theaters, and even ABC couldn't air it, no matter how much they might have wanted to.
nimblemarlin17 nimblemarlin17 Regular
459 messages
joined Mar 2004
#56 ·
Moore makes really watchable movies. His style is catchy—if you can even call it that—for documentaries. The facts he throws at you aren't fake, but the real issue is how he picks and chooses them. He ignores a massive pile of evidence that points the other way just to suit his narrative. Still, unlike those total crackpots out there, his theories aren't some alien conspiracy nonsense. He isn't questioning whether the attackers hit the USA (like those crazy myths about Americans attacking themselves), he’s just looking for the direct links between the attackers and the victims. Those connections definitely exist, and the movie actually managed to convince me of his point.
Richard Hernandez13 Richard Hernandez13 Regular
269 messages
joined May 2004
#57 ·
northerncrane4 said:Of course they "ideally should be objective." You aren't just being subjective the exact moment you hit record; you're being subjective the second you pick up a pen or sit down at a keyboard. You're subjective because you're human. Ideally, documentaries ought to be objective. The very root of the word implies a "document." Audiences expect documentaries to be objective. And that’s precisely why they’re so vulnerable to manipulation, which is something Michael Moore knows all too well and uses quite shamelessly.

I think you're generalizing a bit here.
When you talk about "picking up a pen or sitting at a keyboard," there's a huge difference between writing a personal opinion based on a real event and writing a news article, which by definition must be objective (and it’s an even bigger leap if you’re writing a fictional account of an event, though I suppose that goes without saying and we don't really need to get into that now).
Just because the term "document" is tucked into the genre's name doesn't mean it carries a rigid, clinical definition. A documentary simply presents real-life events using the recording capabilities of film—essentially, the camera—which is what sets it apart from a feature film. Whether a director takes those presented or spoken facts (which should serve as the "foundation") and shapes them into their own personal perspectives to express within the film is a perfectly legitimate process. It doesn't break any rules about "what a documentary should be"—just as the viewer has every right to agree or disagree with those views.
To give you an idea of what I mean, take that scene where Bush reads a children's book to kids almost seven minutes after the plane hit the second tower—those are the facts. He did it because either:

a) He was an incompetent who had no clue what to do in that moment because he lacked the leadership skills required for a President of the United States (if you ask Michael Moore)
b) He was trying to "keep the situation under control" and avoid losing his cool or upsetting the children (if you ask the Bush "spin doctors")

Whether you accept option A or B is entirely a matter of personal interpretation of what you saw. Now, if someone were doing actual news reporting on that event, professional standards would dictate that such subjective judgment be left out (or at least carefully tucked between the lines 😁).

However, where Michael Moore can—and perhaps should—be criticized is in the specific facts he presents as the basis for his arguments. Because if you claim, for example, that Karzai was an advisor to Unocal when he actually never was... well, it's understandable why people would easily push back against everything else he says. There are plenty of credible sources online that deconstruct everything shown and said in Fahrenheit 9/11. Granted, most people approach the film like it's a news report and don't quite grasp cinematic syntax, stylistic choices, or satirical undertones, but when they debate the black-and-white "facts," they're actually on point.

I do agree that people tend to believe what they see, and visual media is arguably the best tool for "galvanizing" the masses, since after all, who won't believe their own eyes, as the saying goes. That is definitely true and makes for a great discussion, but it exists independently of what we are discussing here—which is the nature of documentaries and "what they should be."
Richard Hernandez13 Richard Hernandez13 Regular
269 messages
joined May 2004
#58 ·
Donna Nelson23 said:That movie was actually out in theaters about a year ago, and even though ABC wanted to air it, they just couldn't make it happen.

Actually, the film hit theaters back in the summer of 2003.
You honestly won't believe this, but Pro7 ended up airing it that same fall, just a few short weeks before the election took place.
Elizabeth Price2 Elizabeth Price2 Active Member
66 messages
joined Feb 2006
#59 ·
Honestly, I thought this documentary was just okay—kind of mid, if I'm being real. It’s probably mostly because of all that hype surrounding it, like everyone was telling me, "Dude, you absolutely have to watch this!"
I actually found "Crazy for guns" way more engaging. This one felt a bit tedious at times—just a massive dump of data that was super hard to keep up with...
I did dig the concept at the start, though—you know, how they show the main subjects getting all glammed up (basically prepping for their big moment), then they actually perform during the film, and finally, they unclip the mics and walk off "stage." It was a pretty slick way to tie everything together.
northerncrane4 northerncrane4 Regular
384 messages
joined Aug 2005
#60 ·
kozz said:You're generalizing.

Generalizing what? That people are subjective? That documentary audiences expect objectivity—that they don't want lies or data being massaged to look like facts? That documentaries are prone to manipulation?

kozz said:Just because the word "document" is in the genre title doesn't mean it carries a strict definition. A documentary simply presents real events using the recording capabilities of film—the camera—which is what sets it apart from a feature film.
Whether a director takes those presented or spoken events (which should be factual "bases") to form their own opinions and express them in the film is a perfectly legitimate process—it doesn't break any rules about "what a documentary should be"—just as the viewer has a legitimate right to agree or disagree with those views.

No. Once you use directorial commentary to "explain" to the audience what they are actually seeing, it stops being a documentary and becomes a pamphlet. "Fahrenheit 9/11" isn't a documentary; it's a political pamphlet.

kozz said:As an example of what I mean, take the scene where Bush reads a children's book to kids nearly seven minutes after the plane hit the second tower—those are the facts. He did it because he was either:

a) an incompetent who didn't know what to do because he lacked the leadership skills required for a President of the United States (if you believe Moore)
b) trying to "keep things under control" and not lose his cool or upset the children (if you listen to the Bush "spin doctors")

Whether you accept a) or b) comes down to a personal assessment of what was seen.

It isn't a matter of personal assessment if the director spends the whole time hammering home that "a" is the correct answer.
Let's not kid ourselves. You're talking about some imaginary, ideal viewer capable of filtering truth from fiction. This director doesn't care about that viewer at all. He cares about making money by telling the masses exactly what they want to hear. The director knows there is a massive segment of the American and global population that (rightfully so, though that's beside the point here) truly hates George W. Bush, and they'll happily pay for a movie ticket just to watch him get torn apart. The filmmaker is speaking from a position of someone who, regardless of the film, hates George Bush. Am I really the only one seeing the conflict of interest here?

kozz said:I agree that people mostly believe what they see, and visual media is the best tool for "galvanizing" the masses—after all, as they say, you trust your own eyes more than anything else.

Though this film relies much more heavily on what the masses hear.

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