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F1: Then vs. Now

Started by Amy Brooks · · 👁 9 views · 264 replies

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Participants Amy Brooksurbanowl96Jason Campbell70gentlebear47silvercobra68Frank Collins85Amanda Kellystormyviper11ruggedfox28mistybear87Michael Diaz4Jonathan Booth5Rebecca Fox4placidsurfer9Terry Lewis24redheron12Rachel Gray58cosmiccyclist8wearyraven41jadeseal7graniteharbor502darkmarlin16George Ramos15William Bennett53 …
Jason Campbell70 Jason Campbell70 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2017
#21 ·
mistybear87 said:I can say with absolute certainty that 8 out of 10 F1 fans would pick the current qualifying format over "
your version.
Sure, in your scenario, everything hinges on one flawless lap where there's zero room for error. It’s as close to perfection as it gets, but let's be honest: who actually wants to watch drivers churn out perfect laps one after another, where the only possible excitement comes from someone locking a tire? 🤷🤷

Well, obviously. I never claimed the system I prefer was actually popular among American fans
. Just my own personal take.
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#22 ·
silvercobra68 said:You guys are acting like absolute children. You don't understand anything. Formula 1 is moving forward, not backward. If you want vintage racing, there’s plenty of it—you’ve got the Silverstone classics, the Jim Clark memorial at Hockenheim, the traditional Monza races, or those classic Saturday morning sprints before the 24 Hours of Daytona. Watch those instead of whining about bringing the past back to F1.

But obviously, F1 is something else entirely. F1 is supposed to be cutting-edge technology—the kind of stuff that leaves you breathless when you see it. Just like it was thirty years ago. All those technical solutions you keep mentioning were actually the peak of technology back in their day.

And now, let's finally bust another myth. It isn't true that F1 was "better" back then than it is today. It wasn't better, and it wasn't worse; it was just different. Some things were worse, some were better. Let's break it down;

The 60s
1) Drivers had to drive with massive margins because the cars were fragile, and frankly, because they were terrified. People were dying back then.

2) There were no TV broadcasts and no onboard cameras (unless you count the footage from Frankenheimer’s *Grand Prix* film).

3) On the grid, you had about ten professionals and about ten amateurs—people like Guy Ligier, who was a hockey player, or even more unconventional types like Michael Parkes, who clawed his way into a seat after spending years as a Ferrari engineer.

4) Sometimes those amateurs were actually quite talented, like von Trips or the son of a pharmaceutical tycoon, Joakim Bonnier, who actually managed to snag a couple of Grand Prix wins.

5) The performance gaps between cars were massive. Races would end with only two or three cars in the same lap, while everyone else was two or more laps down. How can you expect any unpredictability? Critics would say the only real uncertainty was whether the Lotus would hold together; if it did, they’d win, if not, it would be a Brabham driver or someone like that—rarely some random guy.

The 70s

1) "Safety" becomes the main topic. After losing about fifty colleagues in the previous decade, drivers started striking, complaining, and boycotting races more frequently.

2) TV coverage still isn't really a thing, or if it is, it's just highlights on Sunday night or sometimes even Monday.

3) Drivers are still driving conservatively, even though wings and slicks made driving much easier. Overtaking happens, but not nearly as much as we imagine. There were a few fun drivers like Peterson or Villeneuve—but honestly, nothing more exciting than Hamilton.

4) The number of wealthy trust-fund kids grows, and some of them even take championships—one before the Nürburgring barbecue era, one after. During the barbecue year, the title goes to none other than a playboy.

The 80s

1) Politics. The war between the FIA and FOCA.

2) After a lull, the "Ecclestone-ization" of the sport begins.

3) A lot of races boil down to fuel management. McLaren dominates in '84 and '85 simply because they are the most efficient, while Brabham struggles. Prost takes his third title. And Piquet gets three too. Hmm... leaves a big question mark over the quality of the drivers.

4) We have TV coverage now. Murray does wonders, which is great, but we don't hear Murray; we hear some guy with a monotonous voice, saying "Piquet first, Prost second..."

So, that's how it was. If there are any more questions, just ask.

🤦 Lauda is a driver whose talent is debatable. If it weren't for Alain being such a powerhouse...🤦🙂
silvercobra68 silvercobra68 Active Member
61 messages
joined Feb 2010
#23 ·
Michael Diaz4 said:🤦 Lauda is a driver whose talent is debatable. If it weren't for Alain being such a powerhouse...🤦🙂

Look, I’m no kid, son. I could easily be your grandfather. Or at least some old geezer you'd want to avoid.

If you've been following this sub for a while, you might have noticed that I'm one of those rare users who almost always praises Prost. In my book, he’s arguably a more composed driver than even Ayrton Senna.

First off, that’s your take. Second, I remember Niki Lauda from back in the early 70s when he was young, arrogant, and—if I dare say so—actually quite bad. Look, the guy has guts; there’s no denying he pushed those March and BRM cars way past their limits. But let’s be real: if Jackie Stewart had stayed in F1, if François Cevert hadn't died, if Jochen Rindt hadn't been lost, and if Emerson Fittipaldi hadn't faded out, Niki would never have become what he is today. He’s just the one blade of grass left standing after the rest of the meadow has been mowed down.
Let’s run a quick thought experiment using Sergio Perez. Imagine a scenario where both Vettel and Hamilton are taken out of the equation—a totally plausible outcome given how things looked back in the 70s with drivers like Cevert, McLaren legends, or Rindt. Now, imagine Button sees a colleague go down and decides to walk away from racing entirely, much like Stewart did after Cevert’s accident. To top it off, let's say Alonso moves over to drive for a backmarker team, similar to how Fittipaldi went to drive for his brother Wilson. What does that leave us with? We end up with a powerhouse like Red Bull or McLaren picking up Perez. Does he snag two championships? Sure. But does that make him a better driver than Hamilton, Button, Vettel, or Alonso? Of course not. That’s exactly what I mean when I call Lauda a hypothetical version of Perez.

What else can I tell you? Look, there’s a massive difference between reading statistics, interpreting them, and actually living through it all firsthand. Back in 1972, when I was just a nineteen-year-old kid, I moved to America because the government here back then had basically stripped my family of everything we owned. My old man had to work for Union Pacific, waiting on trains and signaling them with those handheld flags. My mother spent her days working hard just to keep us afloat while I was growing up. I had two choices: spend my whole life as a low-level track worker and end up like some local drunk—who, mind you, comes from a pretty noble lineage, though that means nothing when the state decides to seize everything—or head out into the world to see what it’s all about. I started at the bottom, cleaning swimming pools for a service company. At the time, I didn't know a thing. I was just a simple guy who knew how to scrub moss off a liner; I barely even spoke English. But things shifted once my boss discovered my background. By 1974, he actually put me in charge of one of his companies—he owned several, and this one handled the cleaning supplies. Through him, I slowly began to understand how the world works. By 1975, I made my first trip to Indianapolis, and I was hooked. Some might wonder what a former pool cleaner could possibly know about American open-wheel racing. Well, it’s true, but it counts. My boss was a major figure within USAC, and one of his companies actively sponsored dirt, sprint, and midget car drivers throughout the 70s, along with several IndyCar entries. That’s how I got my foot in the door. I even met Emerson Fittipaldi when he came to drive CART, so I’ve actually stood face-to-face with men who went toe-to-toe with Niki Lauda. You can rest easy knowing I’m closer to the actual history and the people involved than you could ever imagine. There is plenty more to tell, but I’ll share it all in due time. Just do me a favor: don't call me "kid."

Best regards,👍🙂
Jonathan Booth5 Jonathan Booth5 Member
33 messages
joined Jan 2006
#24 ·
Well, hello there, silvercobra68. It’s quite fascinating how one can transition from being a charming intellectual to acting like a preacher in just a matter of days. Honestly, it seems as though the moment a topic reaches the top of the trending list, some people simply feel compelled to start preaching their gospel 🙏
Rebecca Fox4 Rebecca Fox4 Active Member
61 messages
joined Jul 2010
#25 ·
Regarding those qualifying formats, I personally preferred the previous setup where everyone just gets one clean lap and that's that, though if I'm being honest, I liked the one from two seasons ago even better...

When it comes to the old days, there isn't much to say about the competitive aspect. There were far more direct head-to-head battles between the elite drivers back then, and having a top-tier driver on your team meant everything—honestly, anyone would have walked away with the championship last year if they had been driving that Brawn GP car...
Driver safety was abysmal, particularly during the early 80s; you’d have a car slammed into a wall, the safety car would pull out onto the track, yet everyone else would just keep racing right through it, and don't even get me started on the pit lane protocols...

Even though we saw plenty of intense rivalries between the greats, they really functioned as a tight-knit community, stepping up to help one another whenever necessary, especially if someone had suffered a nasty wreck on the circuit.

A few classic battles, including this last one which remains the single most brilliant move I have ever witnessed in my life...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zznJjSncGCE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guj2nSkBVZo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWCXZgQ3YB4
mistybear87 mistybear87 Regular
406 messages
joined Nov 2010
#26 ·
Rebecca Fox4 said:Regarding those qualifying formats, I personally preferred the previous setup where everyone just gets one clean lap and that's that, though if I'm being honest, I liked the one from two seasons ago even better...

When it comes to the old days, there isn't much to say about the competitive aspect. There were far more direct head-to-head battles between the elite drivers back then, and having a top-tier driver on your team meant everything—honestly, anyone would have walked away with the championship last year if they had been driving that Brawn GP car...
Driver safety was abysmal, particularly during the early 80s; you’d have a car slammed into a wall, the safety car would pull out onto the track, yet everyone else would just keep racing right through it, and don't even get me started on the pit lane protocols...

Even though we saw plenty of intense rivalries between the greats, they really functioned as a tight-knit community, stepping up to help one another whenever necessary, especially if someone had suffered a nasty wreck on the circuit.

A few classic battles, including this last one which remains the single most brilliant move I have ever witnessed in my life...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zznJjSncGCE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guj2nSkBVZo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWCXZgQ3YB4

But how exactly is that maneuver any better than this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99EmExlI-Co 🤷

Senna had to brake incredibly hard because of a backmarker, something we've seen happen quite a bit even in this current season.😉
Jason Campbell70 Jason Campbell70 Veteran
1K messages
joined Jun 2017
#27 ·
I’ve always been fascinated by this move from Nelson Piquet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHdItAr2Ssw

The level of car control at those speeds... mamma mia. 🙏
Rebecca Fox4 Rebecca Fox4 Active Member
61 messages
joined Jul 2010
#28 ·
mistybear87 said:But how exactly is that maneuver any better than this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99EmExlI-Co 🤷

Senna had to brake incredibly hard because of a backmarker, something we've seen happen quite a bit even in this current season.😉

Like I said, if you ask me...😁
placidsurfer9 placidsurfer9 Member
37 messages
joined May 2008
#29 ·
Jason Campbell70 said:I’ve always been fascinated by this move from Nelson Piquet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHdItAr2Ssw

The level of car control at those speeds... mamma mia. 🙏

I catch myself scrolling back to this one all the time... honestly, it’s just too good. 🙏
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#30 ·
silvercobra68 said:Look, I’m no kid, son. I could easily be your grandfather. Or at least some old geezer you'd want to avoid.

If you've been following this sub for a while, you might have noticed that I'm one of those rare users who almost always praises Prost. In my book, he’s arguably a more composed driver than even Ayrton Senna.

First off, that’s your take. Second, I remember Niki Lauda from back in the early 70s when he was young, arrogant, and—if I dare say so—actually quite bad. Look, the guy has guts; there’s no denying he pushed those March and BRM cars way past their limits. But let’s be real: if Jackie Stewart had stayed in F1, if François Cevert hadn't died, if Jochen Rindt hadn't been lost, and if Emerson Fittipaldi hadn't faded out, Niki would never have become what he is today. He’s just the one blade of grass left standing after the rest of the meadow has been mowed down.
Let’s run a quick thought experiment using Sergio Perez. Imagine a scenario where both Vettel and Hamilton are taken out of the equation—a totally plausible outcome given how things looked back in the 70s with drivers like Cevert, McLaren legends, or Rindt. Now, imagine Button sees a colleague go down and decides to walk away from racing entirely, much like Stewart did after Cevert’s accident. To top it off, let's say Alonso moves over to drive for a backmarker team, similar to how Fittipaldi went to drive for his brother Wilson. What does that leave us with? We end up with a powerhouse like Red Bull or McLaren picking up Perez. Does he snag two championships? Sure. But does that make him a better driver than Hamilton, Button, Vettel, or Alonso? Of course not. That’s exactly what I mean when I call Lauda a hypothetical version of Perez.

What else can I tell you? Look, there’s a massive difference between reading statistics, interpreting them, and actually living through it all firsthand. Back in 1972, when I was just a nineteen-year-old kid, I moved to America because the government here back then had basically stripped my family of everything we owned. My old man had to work for Union Pacific, waiting on trains and signaling them with those handheld flags. My mother spent her days working hard just to keep us afloat while I was growing up. I had two choices: spend my whole life as a low-level track worker and end up like some local drunk—who, mind you, comes from a pretty noble lineage, though that means nothing when the state decides to seize everything—or head out into the world to see what it’s all about. I started at the bottom, cleaning swimming pools for a service company. At the time, I didn't know a thing. I was just a simple guy who knew how to scrub moss off a liner; I barely even spoke English. But things shifted once my boss discovered my background. By 1974, he actually put me in charge of one of his companies—he owned several, and this one handled the cleaning supplies. Through him, I slowly began to understand how the world works. By 1975, I made my first trip to Indianapolis, and I was hooked. Some might wonder what a former pool cleaner could possibly know about American open-wheel racing. Well, it’s true, but it counts. My boss was a major figure within USAC, and one of his companies actively sponsored dirt, sprint, and midget car drivers throughout the 70s, along with several IndyCar entries. That’s how I got my foot in the door. I even met Emerson Fittipaldi when he came to drive CART, so I’ve actually stood face-to-face with men who went toe-to-toe with Niki Lauda. You can rest easy knowing I’m closer to the actual history and the people involved than you could ever imagine. There is plenty more to tell, but I’ll share it all in due time. Just do me a favor: don't call me "kid."

Best regards,👍🙂

Look, "grandpa," I’ve got plenty of years on me too, so you might be barking up the wrong tree here...😉 I have to disagree regarding Lauda. The way he drove was nothing short of pure fantasy. I haven't followed everything closely, but we definitely agree on Prost. Even Senna once remarked that Prost possessed a truly unique and superior technique for navigating corners. Do you remember that legendary race at Brands Hatch😁 back in the 80s—maybe '83 or '84—where he practically crossed the finish line on fumes? He had to wiggle the car left and right just to keep the engine fed, and then he pulled it off in those final meters... Those were the days. Real duels. As for Senna? I never really cared for him. He lacked a certain sharpness and tended to overcook it when he had a half-lap lead (just look back at Monaco in '89). It’s easy to win when you're sitting in the best car on the grid. Rindt was really a one-season wonder who flew under the radar. Now, the elder Villeneuve was much, much better. And do you remember who he collided with before his accident at Spa? I’ll never forget the footage of that shoe coming off. Then there was Pironi. That man was something else. If he hadn't broken, he would have been a world champion before meeting his end at sea in '87...
EDIT: It just occurred to me about Carlos Pace's death in '77. Von Stuck got caught out in the same spot where Pace went down. I loved watching Carlos; he was genuinely gifted. Such a shame he didn't make it. Von Stuck was a legend, sure, but his talent in the 70s never quite got the recognition it deserved...
silvercobra68 silvercobra68 Active Member
61 messages
joined Feb 2010
#31 ·
Michael Diaz4 said:Look, "grandpa," I’ve got plenty of years on me too, so you might be barking up the wrong tree here...😉 I have to disagree regarding Lauda. The way he drove was nothing short of pure fantasy. I haven't followed everything closely, but we definitely agree on Prost. Even Senna once remarked that Prost possessed a truly unique and superior technique for navigating corners. Do you remember that legendary race at Brands Hatch😁 back in the 80s—maybe '83 or '84—where he practically crossed the finish line on fumes? He had to wiggle the car left and right just to keep the engine fed, and then he pulled it off in those final meters... Those were the days. Real duels. As for Senna? I never really cared for him. He lacked a certain sharpness and tended to overcook it when he had a half-lap lead (just look back at Monaco in '89). It’s easy to win when you're sitting in the best car on the grid. Rindt was really a one-season wonder who flew under the radar. Now, the elder Villeneuve was much, much better. And do you remember who he collided with before his accident at Spa? I’ll never forget the footage of that shoe coming off. Then there was Pironi. That man was something else. If he hadn't broken, he would have been a world champion before meeting his end at sea in '87...
EDIT: It just occurred to me about Carlos Pace's death in '77. Von Stuck got caught out in the same spot where Pace went down. I loved watching Carlos; he was genuinely gifted. Such a shame he didn't make it. Von Stuck was a legend, sure, but his talent in the 70s never quite got the recognition it deserved...

Monaco wasn't '89, it was '88, and it wasn't Spa, it was Zolder—those are factual errors.

This post is riddled with logical fallacies; I won't even bother commenting, maybe tomorrow when I'm sober. Goodnight.
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#32 ·
silvercobra68 said:Monaco wasn't '89, it was '88, and it wasn't Spa, it was Zolder—those are factual errors.

This post is riddled with logical fallacies; I won't even bother commenting, maybe tomorrow when I'm sober. Goodnight.

Fine, fine. I don't know why I swapped Zandvoort for Spa. Maybe I just wanted to spat😁. I was deep in thought about those legendary races at Spa, so I lost my way while typing, and the slip-up stayed there. And no, it definitely wasn't 1988, it was 1989. I am one hundred percent certain on that. Once you've sorted your facts out, we can talk...
stormyviper11 stormyviper11 Active Member
81 messages
joined Nov 2007
#33 ·
Carlos Pace died in a plane crash, not on the track. ☕

We could go on forever debating how much raw driving skill Lauda actually had. Sure, I’ll give you that he didn't look like much in his early days, but man, did he level up later on. It was mostly because of that gray matter in his head—he probably had more brains than all the other drivers from the seventies combined (well, maybe not counting Fittipaldi, who was pretty close in that department). 🙂 There’s this weird trend where people try to tear Lauda down specifically because of the things I actually respect about him. He wasn't some god-given natural talent or one of those "pure" racers who would kill anyone just to grab a win. But over time, he matured into a top-tier driver who made up for any gaps in pure speed by using his intellect, his work ethic, and his ability to organize the team he was driving for.

That doesn't change the fact that, statistically speaking, Emerson Fittipaldi was playing at the level of the all-time greats during the first half of his career. And honestly, if he hadn't let family and patriotic ties get in the way of his career choices—if he'd picked the right seats—he might have actually caught up to Fangio's championship count by the end of the seventies...
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#34 ·
stormyviper11 said:Carlos Pace died in a plane crash, not on the track. ☕

We could go on forever debating how much raw driving skill Lauda actually had. Sure, I’ll give you that he didn't look like much in his early days, but man, did he level up later on. It was mostly because of that gray matter in his head—he probably had more brains than all the other drivers from the seventies combined (well, maybe not counting Fittipaldi, who was pretty close in that department). 🙂 There’s this weird trend where people try to tear Lauda down specifically because of the things I actually respect about him. He wasn't some god-given natural talent or one of those "pure" racers who would kill anyone just to grab a win. But over time, he matured into a top-tier driver who made up for any gaps in pure speed by using his intellect, his work ethic, and his ability to organize the team he was driving for.

That doesn't change the fact that, statistically speaking, Emerson Fittipaldi was playing at the level of the all-time greats during the first half of his career. And honestly, if he hadn't let family and patriotic ties get in the way of his career choices—if he'd picked the right seats—he might have actually caught up to Fangio's championship count by the end of the seventies...

That's right, that was the last race Carlos drove. I just can't recall who passed away back then. Honestly, my memory is blank on what happened in 1977. I'm too lazy to Google it, but it might have been the US Grand Prix. Does anyone remember who died in that incident? 😵 I know Stuck managed to walk away from it relatively unscathed...
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#35 ·
Well, I did a little digging online just now, and I can't find any mention of anyone actually losing their life during that 1977 race in Brazil. Pace had a nasty wreck back then, sure, but that’s about it. It was ages ago—I think I even used to collect old car magazines when I was younger. I’ll have to track down an old issue of *Car and Driver* from '77 to get the full rundown on that specific race. If I remember correctly, the Porsche 928 was being showcased at the Geneva Auto Show around that time, and I believe it was driven by someone like Dan Gurney.
Rebecca Fox4 Rebecca Fox4 Active Member
61 messages
joined Jul 2010
#36 ·
Michael Diaz4 said:Well, I did a little digging online just now, and I can't find any mention of anyone actually losing their life during that 1977 race in Brazil. Pace had a nasty wreck back then, sure, but that’s about it. It was ages ago—I think I even used to collect old car magazines when I was younger. I’ll have to track down an old issue of *Car and Driver* from '77 to get the full rundown on that specific race. If I remember correctly, the Porsche 928 was being showcased at the Geneva Auto Show around that time, and I believe it was driven by someone like Dan Gurney.

Pace had his accident following the death of Tom Pryce during a race in South Africa.
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#37 ·
Found it. It was South Africa after all. Tom Pryce was the one who lost his life. People just tend to forget these things over time...
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#38 ·
Rebecca Fox4 said:Pace had his accident following the death of Tom Pryce during a race in South Africa.

I actually wrote that a couple of posts ago, but I botched the edit. Fixed it now. I had typed it out just minutes before you posted, then realized my mistake and updated it. Man, the years are really starting to catch up with me...
Rebecca Fox4 Rebecca Fox4 Active Member
61 messages
joined Jul 2010
#39 ·
Since we’re talking about Pace, look at this shot from 1973 at Watkins Glen, behind the wheel of that Ferrari 312PB...

image
Michael Diaz4 Michael Diaz4 Active Member
154 messages
joined Nov 2009
#40 ·
It was actually quite good. I recall seeing a report back in a 1977 issue of *Car and Driver* about that plane crash—I honestly thought it was a helicopter at the time, but no, it wasn't. It was the one where Pace died. If my memory serves me right, he left behind his wife, Edna, and a little boy who was maybe six years old. That’s what sticks in my mind, though I don't have the magazine sitting in front of me right now. I can't be bothered to Google all the specifics, but the memory just surfaced...

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