F1: Then vs. Now

Michael Diaz4 said:Found it. It was South Africa after all. Tom Pryce was the one who lost his life. People just tend to forget these things over time...

Hold on, are you actually trying to act like an expert here or something?

Look, we all know the fire extinguisher crushed his helmet and caused that horrific injury on the track, but you didn't mention any of that. I'm genuinely surprised.

Your knowledge is pretty thin.

silvercobra68 said:Hold on, are you actually trying to act like an expert here or something?

Look, we all know the fire extinguisher crushed his helmet and caused that horrific injury on the track, but you didn't mention any of that. I'm genuinely surprised.

Your knowledge is pretty thin.

I don't exactly write about everything. And as for that fire extinguisher... Hmm.🤔

Michael Diaz4 said:I don't exactly write about everything. And as for that fire extinguisher... Hmm.🤔

Regarding the fire extinguisher, the facts are quite grim. He collided with a security guard who was recklessly sprinting across the track while clutching an extinguisher. That guard died instantly on the spot, and the impact sent the extinguisher flying directly into Pryce's head, killing him as well.

Michael Diaz4 said:I don't exactly write about everything. And as for that fire extinguisher... Hmm.🤔

urbanowl96 said:Regarding the fire extinguisher, the facts are quite grim. He collided with a security guard who was recklessly sprinting across the track while clutching an extinguisher. That guard died instantly on the spot, and the impact sent the extinguisher flying directly into Pryce's head, killing him as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEPUL...eature=related ☕

HEADS UP!!!! Just a quick warning: the links in this thread lead to some pretty graphic photos of Tom Pryce's accident... I wouldn't recommend clicking if you have a weak stomach.

http://d.imagehost.org/view/0084/bscap0232tu.jpg
http://d.imagehost.org/view/0980/bscap0242so.jpg
http://d.imagehost.org/view/0890/bscap0252mo.jpg

So, if we could steer the conversation back to the topic at hand for a moment—F1 then versus F1 now... you just don't see this kind of thing much anymore these days, do you?🤣🤣🤣

http://i26.tinypic.com/21e6eqp.jpg

mistybear87 said:So, if we could steer the conversation back to the topic at hand for a moment—F1 then versus F1 now... you just don't see this kind of thing much anymore these days, do you?🤣🤣🤣

http://i26.tinypic.com/21e6eqp.jpg

True enough, even if it wasn't strictly F1... 🙂

stormyviper11 said:True enough, even if it wasn't strictly F1... 🙂

Well, I suppose I've been hanging around this scene for about 15 years now, give or take. 😬

I have a question here, and I suspect stormyviper11 might have the answer, though if anyone else has heard anything regarding this, please do speak up.
Essentially, I am well aware of the incident at the 1977 German Grand Prix where Hans Heyer made an illegal appearance in the race🙏, but I have recently come across information suggesting that Harald Ertl pulled a similar stunt in France back in 1976.😲 I have done some digging, yet nowhere does it explicitly state he competed illegally, though there are several peculiar discrepancies. During that era, races typically featured about 26 drivers, yet in this specific instance, there were 27 (with Ertl being the 27th). Furthermore, most records indicate he posted the 29th fastest qualifying time. If the organizers had allowed a 27th driver to start for whatever reason, they logically would have selected those with the 27th or 28th fastest times (specifically Magee and Hoffmann). My question, then, is quite simple: why was Ertl able to participate in that race, and how on earth did he manage to pull it off?🤷

On another note, I simply cannot resist sharing this photo of Harald.😁

Didn't he spend the entirety of 1976 driving for Hesketh-Ford? 🤷

urbanowl96 said:I have a question here, and I suspect stormyviper11 might have the answer, though if anyone else has heard anything regarding this, please do speak up.
Essentially, I am well aware of the incident at the 1977 German Grand Prix where Hans Heyer made an illegal appearance in the race🙏, but I have recently come across information suggesting that Harald Ertl pulled a similar stunt in France back in 1976.😲 I have done some digging, yet nowhere does it explicitly state he competed illegally, though there are several peculiar discrepancies. During that era, races typically featured about 26 drivers, yet in this specific instance, there were 27 (with Ertl being the 27th). Furthermore, most records indicate he posted the 29th fastest qualifying time. If the organizers had allowed a 27th driver to start for whatever reason, they logically would have selected those with the 27th or 28th fastest times (specifically Magee and Hoffmann). My question, then, is quite simple: why was Ertl able to participate in that race, and how on earth did he manage to pull it off?🤷

On another note, I simply cannot resist sharing this photo of Harald.😁

I think you might be slightly off there, because back in '76, there wasn't a fixed rule stating that 26 drivers would start every single race
instead, it really varied from one event to the next; for instance, during those street circuits that season, they’d often have
only 20 drivers starting (though more had the chance to qualify), and at the Spanish Grand Prix, there were 24...

...he entered the race illegally🙏, though I just stumbled upon some info suggesting Harald Ertl did the exact same thing in France back in 1976.😲 I’ve been digging around a bit, and I can't find anything explicitly saying he competed illegally, though there are a few odd details...

Every site I’ve looked at seems to say everything was fine (at least from what I’ve managed to find) 🤷
Which specific site were you looking at that claims his qualifying time was actually faster than
Damien Mageea or Ingo Hoffman's?

By the way, Hans Heyer was banned from further competition for that exact same reason in Formula 1, yet Harald Ertl was allowed to carry on racing without any issues, which makes me wonder if there really was anything controversial about it after all...

Terry Lewis24 said:I think you might be slightly off there, because back in '76, there wasn't a fixed rule stating that 26 drivers would start every single race
instead, it really varied from one event to the next; for instance, during those street circuits that season, they’d often have
only 20 drivers starting (though more had the chance to qualify), and at the Spanish Grand Prix, there were 24...

...he entered the race illegally🙏, though I just stumbled upon some info suggesting Harald Ertl did the exact same thing in France back in 1976.😲 I’ve been digging around a bit, and I can't find anything explicitly saying he competed illegally, though there are a few odd details...

Every site I’ve looked at seems to say everything was fine (at least from what I’ve managed to find) 🤷
Which specific site were you looking at that claims his qualifying time was actually faster than
Damien Mageea or Ingo Hoffman's?

By the way, Hans Heyer was banned from further competition for that exact same reason in Formula 1, yet Harald Ertl was allowed to carry on racing without any issues, which makes me wonder if there really was anything controversial about it after all...

True, but even then, it topped out at 26—never 27—and the starting numbers always seemed to be an even count.

Terry Lewis24 said:I think you might be slightly off there, because back in '76, there wasn't a fixed rule stating that 26 drivers would start every single race
instead, it really varied from one event to the next; for instance, during those street circuits that season, they’d often have
only 20 drivers starting (though more had the chance to qualify), and at the Spanish Grand Prix, there were 24...

...he entered the race illegally🙏, though I just stumbled upon some info suggesting Harald Ertl did the exact same thing in France back in 1976.😲 I’ve been digging around a bit, and I can't find anything explicitly saying he competed illegally, though there are a few odd details...

Every site I’ve looked at seems to say everything was fine (at least from what I’ve managed to find) 🤷
Which specific site were you looking at that claims his qualifying time was actually faster than
Damien Mageea or Ingo Hoffman's?

By the way, Hans Heyer was banned from further competition for that exact same reason in Formula 1, yet Harald Ertl was allowed to carry on racing without any issues, which makes me wonder if there really was anything controversial about it after all...

If you look at the official archives, they list him at 29th place.

On f1-facts.com, they record his qualifying time as 1:53"79, which puts him in 29th.

Then there's statsf1.com, which lists his time as 1:53"49, placing him 27th.

Now, some other sources suggest a time of 1:53"59 (which would make him 28th), while others stick to 1:53"79. It is quite difficult to determine which data set is the absolute truth here, but the consensus among most major databases is that he finished 29th.

Terry Lewis24 said:I think you might be slightly off there, because back in '76, there wasn't a fixed rule stating that 26 drivers would start every single race
instead, it really varied from one event to the next; for instance, during those street circuits that season, they’d often have
only 20 drivers starting (though more had the chance to qualify), and at the Spanish Grand Prix, there were 24...

...he entered the race illegally🙏, though I just stumbled upon some info suggesting Harald Ertl did the exact same thing in France back in 1976.😲 I’ve been digging around a bit, and I can't find anything explicitly saying he competed illegally, though there are a few odd details...

Every site I’ve looked at seems to say everything was fine (at least from what I’ve managed to find) 🤷
Which specific site were you looking at that claims his qualifying time was actually faster than
Damien Mageea or Ingo Hoffman's?

By the way, Hans Heyer was banned from further competition for that exact same reason in Formula 1, yet Harald Ertl was allowed to carry on racing without any issues, which makes me wonder if there really was anything controversial about it after all...

That is precisely why I find it so perplexing. How could he participate in that race under the guise of everything being perfectly standard, when both 1975 and 1978 saw 26 drivers on the grid at that track? (In '77, they raced at Dijon instead). As I noted previously, the number of starters always appeared to be even.

I had no clue about that, but it’s pretty obvious Ertl jumped the gun and started that race when he shouldn't have, and honestly, there were a bunch of other similar screw-ups too. You can find all the gritty details here over on the old Autosport nostalgia forums—that's basically where I picked up like 90% of what I actually know about Formula 1 and everything else on the track. 🙂

I was dead certain the Heyer situation was a one-off, but apparently, those kinds of opportunistic types back in the seventies were everywhere... just a regular occurrence, really.

Then you’ve got that legendary tall tale about a "lost" Mercedes showing up at Le Mans, which is... well... though it might just be another urban legend out there... 😁

stormyviper11 said:I had no clue about that, but it’s pretty obvious Ertl jumped the gun and started that race when he shouldn't have, and honestly, there were a bunch of other similar screw-ups too. You can find all the gritty details here over on the old Autosport nostalgia forums—that's basically where I picked up like 90% of what I actually know about Formula 1 and everything else on the track. 🙂

I was dead certain the Heyer situation was a one-off, but apparently, those kinds of opportunistic types back in the seventies were everywhere... just a regular occurrence, really.

Then you’ve got that legendary tall tale about a "lost" Mercedes showing up at Le Mans, which is... well... though it might just be another urban legend out there... 😁

I actually stumbled upon this in a different thread on that same forum (which, for the record, is a brilliant resource; you can find 99% of anything you'd ever want to know about motorsports there), but it only mentioned that both Heyer and Ertl competed when they shouldn't have. I didn't find this specific thread you've posted, but while browsing another one today, I found data suggesting that even Schenken made an illegal start for Lotus at the 1974 US Grand Prix. Interestingly, he also started the 27th race and was actually disqualified for it, unlike Ertl.
So, while it's obvious Heyer isn't the only one, it is curious how many people remember his case and constantly bring it up, whereas finding any information on the others is a struggle.

stormyviper11 said:I had no clue about that, but it’s pretty obvious Ertl jumped the gun and started that race when he shouldn't have, and honestly, there were a bunch of other similar screw-ups too. You can find all the gritty details here over on the old Autosport nostalgia forums—that's basically where I picked up like 90% of what I actually know about Formula 1 and everything else on the track. 🙂

I was dead certain the Heyer situation was a one-off, but apparently, those kinds of opportunistic types back in the seventies were everywhere... just a regular occurrence, really.

Then you’ve got that legendary tall tale about a "lost" Mercedes showing up at Le Mans, which is... well... though it might just be another urban legend out there... 😁

I haven't heard that particular story, so I shall have to look into it. I am, however, familiar with a few accounts from the Targa Florio and the Mille Miglia involving "lost" drivers, though in those races, getting turned around was far easier given the nature of the courses themselves.

So here’s how it went down:

Back on April 14, 1970, a silver Mercedes-Benz 300 SEL 6.3—chassis number 004318—rolled off the line at the Mercedes plant in Stuttgart, Germany. With its deep burgundy interior, this beast was built to American specs but was actually staged for delivery over in Europe. The first guy to get the keys was none other than the controversial director Roman Polanski. He was heading overseas to try and escape the massive media circus following the tragic death of his wife, Sharon Tate, at the hands of the Manson Family. He placed the order through Mercedes of Beverly Hills and planned to have the car driven all the way to Cannes, France, so he’d have it ready for the film festival...

The guy they hired to shuttle the car from Germany to France was this unemployed racer named Klaus Pach. Pach had a stint driving for the Porsche factory team, but they canned him because he treated the cars like rental toys. Word on the street was he even showed up to the 1967 Targa Florio after a few too many drinks. On his way to Cannes, Klaus decided to swing by the Le Mans circuit to check on some buddies competing in the 24-hour endurance race. After polishing off a ridiculous amount of champagne, a totally wasted Pach took a wrong turn exiting the paddock. Instead of hitting the main road, he accidentally steered the Benz right onto the track's main straight just as the green flag dropped!

Instead of panicking when he realized he was on the track, Klaus basically just leaned into it. He actually held his own against the leaders for a few laps, mostly because that massive M100 engine let him keep pace with the factory Porsches, Ferraris, and those legendary Ford GT-40s. The race officials started throwing black flags at him, but Klaus basically told them to shove it, ignoring orders to pit and pushing the car for nearly an hour before he finally ran dry. He coasted to a halt on the Mulsanne straight, where the local police swooped in and hauled him away. The big Mercedes got impounded, and Polanski got the call. The director was absolutely livid and refused to take the car, so it got sent back to the factory and eventually shipped back to the original dealership in Beverly Hills.

The car sat on the showroom floor on Rodeo Drive for a bit until actor Werner Klemperer wandered in looking for a ride. Klemperer—the guy who played Colonel Klink in that classic sitcom *Hogan's Heroes*—snagged the car at a killer discount. He used it as his daily driver to get to the studio, and his co-star Bob Crane used to joke that it looked like the Colonel's official staff car. Klemperer kept it for a few years, but after Crane passed away unexpectedly, he sold it because seeing the car just hit him too hard with the memories...

The third owner of this specific 300 SEL was the wild comedian Rip Taylor. At the height of his fame with *The $1.98 Beauty Contest*, Taylor would cruise the Hollywood party scene in this silver beauty. He actually used the huge trunk to haul around his stage props, and he’d often pull over to give impromptu shows for anyone watching. Once the show got canceled, Taylor found himself a little short on cash and ended up selling the Mercedes to settle some old debts.

Fast forward to early 1979: a wealthy, larger-than-life Texan with a serious obsession with silver picked the car up from a "Cash For Your Car" lot in Gardena, California. That man was Nelson Bunker Hunt. He had the Mercedes hauled back to his massive estate in Texas, where he actually fitted it with longhorns and used it as a sort of luxury ranch limo. "Bunky" loved taking potential investors on high-speed joyrides across his property, often closing major business deals right there in the back of the sedan. But when the silver market completely tanked, the car ended up being handed over to the Englehard Minerals and Chemicals Corporation as part of a settlement to cover Hunt's massive contractual obligations regarding silver purchases. It sat gathering dust in storage for five years before showing up at an auction in Oklahoma City.

By 1991, the current owner, Richard Riegler, stumbled upon the Mercedes while on a business trip to Norman, Oklahoma. Richard is an engineering consultant who had been hunting for a Mercedes that could actually keep up with his daily driver, "Blondie"—which is what he calls his champagne-colored 300 Turbo Diesel workhorse. After making frequent trips to the Oklahoma City area, Richard finally pulled the trigger, bought the 6.3, and drove it all the way home to New Jersey...

What happened next is basically the stuff of legends. Riegler—who’s got such a heavy right foot and an iron backside that he’s pretty much been blacklisted from every major rental agency in the country—decided to smash the record for the drive from Oklahoma City back to his place at the Jersey Shore. Honestly, the guy's run would’ve made the Cannonball Run organizers weep with joy. He and Rich in that silver beast might actually be the frontrunners for the next big cross-country sprint...

He dubbed his new toy "Rudi," a nod to the legendary Rudolf Uhlenhaut. That guy ran the design show over at Mercedes for ages and was the mastermind behind that whole German hot rod vibe. His big dream? Shoving the biggest engine Benz had into their flagship luxury sedan. Total visionary. And apparently, Uhlenhaut was a hell of a driver too, which is something the current owner might want to aim for... The legacy is alive and well out on the Jersey coast. If some massive silver blur screams past you on the interstate, just flash your high beams to let "Rudi" know you approve!

Current photo of the ride:



And a little Photoshop... I mean, uh, let's call it a "documentary" shot from the race... 😁

mistybear87 said:HEADS UP!!!! Just a quick warning: the links in this thread lead to some pretty graphic photos of Tom Pryce's accident... I wouldn't recommend clicking if you have a weak stomach.

http://d.imagehost.org/view/0084/bscap0232tu.jpg
http://d.imagehost.org/view/0980/bscap0242so.jpg
http://d.imagehost.org/view/0890/bscap0252mo.jpg

Here I am, replying in this thread since silvercobra68's corner is locked. As I recall, that situation with Clark happened during the 1965 British Grand Prix.
As for Senna and the concrete, I don't know, though I have heard that story before.
And regarding Nuvolari, he competed in over ten races while nursing various injuries. Since he used to race motorcycles before moving to cars, there was one instance where he competed right after a massive crash. I don't know exactly what was broken, but he couldn't even get onto the bike himself; others had to hoist him on and lift him off once the race ended. Then there was the podium presenter with a broken arm, the driver racing without a steering wheel (he actually held it in one hand while using the other to steer via a bar), and plenty of other fascinating tales.

I once found myself driving in pitch-black darkness when my battery died and the headlights just cut out on me. I ended up navigating by memory alone, driving all the way from rural outskirts through the countryside, past the small towns, and winding up through the hills before finally pulling over. I even made it past the suburbs, through the industrial zones, and straight into the heart of downtown—all without a single headlight in total darkness.

What are you guys even talking about? These are nothing but tall tales. There’s zero physical evidence; it’s just oral tradition passed from person to person until the story morphs into something completely different from the truth.

urbanowl96 said:Here I am, replying in this thread since silvercobra68's corner is locked. As I recall, that situation with Clark happened during the 1965 British Grand Prix.
As for Senna and the concrete, I don't know, though I have heard that story before.
And regarding Nuvolari, he competed in over ten races while nursing various injuries. Since he used to race motorcycles before moving to cars, there was one instance where he competed right after a massive crash. I don't know exactly what was broken, but he couldn't even get onto the bike himself; others had to hoist him on and lift him off once the race ended. Then there was the podium presenter with a broken arm, the driver racing without a steering wheel (he actually held it in one hand while using the other to steer via a bar), and plenty of other fascinating tales.

Neither Kaj nor Webber were driving through broken bones—just that time they wiped out on their bikes, so really, no big deal.🤣

As for that Senna bit 🙏 🙏 🙏 (😁)

silvercobra68 said:I once found myself driving in pitch-black darkness when my battery died and the headlights just cut out on me. I ended up navigating by memory alone, driving all the way from rural outskirts through the countryside, past the small towns, and winding up through the hills before finally pulling over. I even made it past the suburbs, through the industrial zones, and straight into the heart of downtown—all without a single headlight in total darkness.

What are you guys even talking about? These are nothing but tall tales. There’s zero physical evidence; it’s just oral tradition passed from person to person until the story morphs into something completely different from the truth.

While much of this is likely exaggerated, certain historical events are backed by hard facts—take the steering wheel situation, for instance:


In 1968, Jackie Stewart won the German Grand Prix while driving primarily with his right hand through the corners (securing a massive lead over second place). Niki Lauda raced despite having lost an eyelid, and once even after broken ribs from a tractor accident. Nuvolari took second place with a broken arm (though I can't recall which specific race). These aren't myths; there is photographic evidence and documentation.

Some of these other anecdotes might be true, and others probably aren't, but it remains interesting to listen to them regardless.

Since we’re all sitting here discussing miracles and mythological legends, I can't help but be reminded of this one chilling incident from the world of NASCAR:

By 1991, J.D. McDuffie—a legendary independent racer who had been grinding it out in NASCAR for years—was facing some incredibly steep odds. Back then, most teams were fueled by massive corporate sponsorships, leaving a scrappy, self-funded operation like McDuffie's struggling just to make the starting lineup. He tried to qualify for 14 races that year, but only managed to make the cut for five. Then came the tragedy during the August 11th race at the Watkins Glen road course... he lost a wheel, slammed hard into a retaining wall, and, heartbreakingly, lost his life in the crash. Throughout his career from 1963 to 1991, McDuffie racked up an impressive 106 top-10 finishes, even though a win always seemed to elude him. Fast forward to October 1998, and driver Bobby Hillin, Jr. claimed he saw McDuffie’s ghost standing right at the exact spot where the accident happened, all while Hillin was out there during a testing session. Of course, naturally, nobody actually believed him...

Who knows? Maybe there really is something more to it after all... 🙂