Bahrain Grand Prix (Outer Loop) | December 4-6, 2020

Alex Barnes93 said:Plus, if you look at the podiums, Jenson hit them twice as often as Hamilton did that year (12 for Jenson vs. just 6 for Lewis).

Well, I suppose that might be true, but

If you look closer, Lewis really outclassed Button in qualifying, especially since Lewis managed to grab pole positions throughout the year while Button didn't, and even when Button wasn't grabbing podiums, Lewis was usually still finishing quite respectably, so there is a bit more to the story than just those numbers.

In fact, I believe the only drivers who really managed to push Lewis aside that year were Felipe Massa in Singapore, Monaco, Silverstone, India, and Japan.

Does anyone else happen to remember that stretch? :zubo

I honestly can't imagine why it would be so incredibly difficult to wrap one's head around a simple table with maybe seven or eight columns.🤔

fadedwalker18 said:He proved himself back in '97 and '98, showing he had the raw talent and potential. He just never quite hit the jackpot in Formula 1 to truly cement his status as the GOAT.

So he spent two seasons driving a car that went on to win four championships.

And what did he actually do during those two years?

Absolutely nothing worth mentioning.

I'm reading reports that Russell might face a disqualification.

graniteharbor502 said:What relevance does a link comparing two drivers based on arbitrary criteria hold when the primary metric should undoubtedly be the total number of points earned? When placed in the exact same car during the same season, Jenson Button actually holds 43 more points. Nuff said.

If we are talking strictly about results, then yes, that is true. However, is it not also true that he was fortunate enough to pilot the most dominant machine in history for seven consecutive seasons? Even during those seven years, he still managed to lose a championship to a driver who had never been a world champion before. That certainly gives one pause when considering the claim that he is the greatest of all time...

Give me a break... lucky or not, the guy beat rookie Fernando Alonso right out of the gate. But hey, if you want to call it luck...

Nicholas Newman2 said:What kind of standard are you even using? Because you specifically said that tier.🤔

I guess we just have set standards for every other debate, right?😁

You jump in with a claim, but when I ask you directly and clearly what you mean, you just deflect back to Bottas and act like I'm the one who needs to define things. Real classy.

Deflecting or switching arguments doesn't work here.👎

So, Pierre Gasly and Alexander Albon basically just proved you wrong.🤦

What part of this isn't clicking?
Physics was a top-tier wingman, just like Bottas...
Before him, you had truo struggling to find his footing, then Physics comes in and plays the obedient soldier...
Same deal with Rosberg—he struggled, so they brought in the compliant Bottas right after him...

Though, unlike Bottas, Physics actually had massive talent when he was young, and expectations for his career were huge...
At the end of the day, he grabbed that first win with a small outfit, stacking up podiums before the dominant Renault era...
With Bottas, on the other hand, nobody expected anything more than maybe occasionally beating Massu.

So, Gasly and Albon are basically proving you wrong here.🤦

Based on what?
When Albon joined Red Bull Racing, he hit the ground running with solid, consistent results—he was even pulling more points than the "perfect" Max Verstappen for a minute.
Now, why he suddenly tanked in his second season is anyone's guess, but it definitely wasn't because he couldn't handle the pressure... if he couldn't, he wouldn't have survived 2019.

Gasly qualified ten spots ahead of Max in just his second race and finished 4th... only to inexplicably vanish into thin air for a while before getting sent back to STR where he somehow shines again.
How, why, or on what grounds? I haven't the slightest idea...

But before we call Gasly an exception that proves the rule instead of the rule itself...

Here comes the crate

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Well, I suppose that might be true, but

If you look closer, Lewis really outclassed Button in qualifying, especially since Lewis managed to grab pole positions throughout the year while Button didn't, and even when Button wasn't grabbing podiums, Lewis was usually still finishing quite respectably, so there is a bit more to the story than just those numbers.

In fact, I believe the only drivers who really managed to push Lewis aside that year were Felipe Massa in Singapore, Monaco, Silverstone, India, and Japan.

Does anyone else happen to remember that stretch? :zubo

I honestly can't imagine why it would be so incredibly difficult to wrap one's head around a simple table with maybe seven or eight columns.🤔

Well, they always do when the facts don't suit them! Doesn't the sheer absurdity of their logic show you exactly what level this debate is at?

shadowmarlin22 said:If you're saying the car needs that much tweaking just because the driver isn't sitting in it every single weekend, then how exactly does Hulkenberg manage to drive just as well as Stroll?

Look, there’s no making excuses for Russell. I actually really like the guy—probably more than anyone else on this sub (more than even the guys over at 😁)—and I'm convinced his driving talent was already obvious in the junior categories. This streak of qualifying dominance isn't some fluke. Just because his teammates got lucky in one race and managed to snag a point ahead of him doesn't mean anything to me...

But putting all that aside, he's finally got a real shot to prove himself, especially if he gets two races under his belt. No sense in making excuses here; everyone expects him to perform at the level we know Bottas can deliver.

Look, Hulk still has way more experience in the FIA than Stroll ever will. 🙂
He’s got so much more under his belt that the crew actually trusts his feedback way more than they trust Stroll's...

A team is a team. You can change the name, swap out the engines, whatever—but the way a crew operates stays pretty much the same...

And as for the experience gap:
Stroll in the FIA—a season and a half (maybe two by now)...
Hulk—6 seasons...

Valtteri Bottas absolutely crushed it.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:If we're deciding the greatest based solely on championship titles, then Lewis Hamilton is undoubtedly the GOAT.

However, if you look at it through the lens of having lost the fewest championships, Lewis Hamilton still takes the crown, since he won 7 out of 14 seasons—which is a 50% success rate—while Michael Schumacher comes in second, winning 7 out of 17 seasons, which is arguably a bit lower than Hamilton's 50%.

The table I shared is actually a pretty detailed numerical breakdown of their head-to-head matchups, which I think tries to account for things like luck or mechanical failures, aiming to answer who the better driver truly is rather than just who has been more successful in Formula 1.

But isn't that not quite the case, considering Michael Schumacher also holds seven titles to his name?

Kenneth Cruz67 said:If we're deciding the greatest based solely on championship titles, then Lewis Hamilton is undoubtedly the GOAT.

However, if you look at it through the lens of having lost the fewest championships, Lewis Hamilton still takes the crown, since he won 7 out of 14 seasons—which is a 50% success rate—while Michael Schumacher comes in second, winning 7 out of 17 seasons, which is arguably a bit lower than Hamilton's 50%.

The table I shared is actually a pretty detailed numerical breakdown of their head-to-head matchups, which I think tries to account for things like luck or mechanical failures, aiming to answer who the better driver truly is rather than just who has been more successful in Formula 1.

🤣
If one were to sit down and meticulously examine the statistics based strictly on the criterion of drivers who piloted the specific car that ultimately secured the World Championship, one begins to wonder how many titles actually slipped through their fingers. It is a fascinating, if somewhat melancholy, way to look at racing history, isn't it? For instance, if we look at Lewis Hamilton, how many championships did he miss out on despite being behind the wheel of the car that eventually claimed the crown? And then, if we shift our gaze toward the legends—how does that tally compare for someone like Michael Schumacher, or perhaps the incomparable Juan Manuel Fangio, or even Jim Clark? One can't help but ponder whether the driver or the machine holds the true weight of destiny in such moments.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:If we're deciding the greatest based solely on championship titles, then Lewis Hamilton is undoubtedly the GOAT.

However, if you look at it through the lens of having lost the fewest championships, Lewis Hamilton still takes the crown, since he won 7 out of 14 seasons—which is a 50% success rate—while Michael Schumacher comes in second, winning 7 out of 17 seasons, which is arguably a bit lower than Hamilton's 50%.

The table I shared is actually a pretty detailed numerical breakdown of their head-to-head matchups, which I think tries to account for things like luck or mechanical failures, aiming to answer who the better driver truly is rather than just who has been more successful in Formula 1.

One cannot help but reflect upon the sheer statistical weight of Jenson Button's performance during that 2011 season, can one? When you truly sit down to examine the data, he clearly holds the advantage in terms of both fastest laps and superior finishing positions. It brings to mind an astute observation made by RC da Kookee regarding his podium consistency—specifically that notable 12-to-6 ratio—but even that seems almost secondary when we consider the most vital metric of all. After all, isn't the ultimate measure of a driver's brilliance found simply in the total points amassed throughout the championship?
At this point, one has to wonder if we have truly reached the threshold of the absurd, as the situation is beginning to feel quite frankly ridiculous. 🤦

Turn 7 is going to be the absolute make-or-break moment, honestly. You’ve gotta nail that precision perfectly if you want to hit that apex right and really floor it coming out onto the back straight. It’s so incredibly easy to overcook it there, too. I have a feeling we’re gonna be seeing a whole lot of that on screen.

George Russell 🙏 🙏 🙏

The competition and Lewis Hamilton before he joined Mercedes:



The competition and Lewis Hamilton during the Mercedes era:



Mercedes victories and the competition from when Lewis Hamilton switched over until now:



Mercedes victories and the competition from the start of the hybrid era until today:



Honestly, if anyone tries to tell me that Mercedes hasn't been the most convincingly dominant car ever, they seriously need to check if there's anything actually going on inside their head. Just so we’re clear, I’m pulling for Mercedes.

stormybadger8 said:Look, Hulk still has way more experience in the FIA than Stroll ever will. 🙂
He’s got so much more under his belt that the crew actually trusts his feedback way more than they trust Stroll's...

A team is a team. You can change the name, swap out the engines, whatever—but the way a crew operates stays pretty much the same...

And as for the experience gap:
Stroll in the FIA—a season and a half (maybe two by now)...
Hulk—6 seasons...

You're talking a lot here....
On the subject of experience and building that trust, I'll just point to LeClerc and Vettel. That should be enough for anyone paying attention.

Jobote, Russell beat Bottas again.

I mean, Bottas is probably going to get his ass kicked; this feels like his luck has finally run out.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Well, I suppose that might be true, but

If you look closer, Lewis really outclassed Button in qualifying, especially since Lewis managed to grab pole positions throughout the year while Button didn't, and even when Button wasn't grabbing podiums, Lewis was usually still finishing quite respectably, so there is a bit more to the story than just those numbers.

In fact, I believe the only drivers who really managed to push Lewis aside that year were Felipe Massa in Singapore, Monaco, Silverstone, India, and Japan.

Does anyone else happen to remember that stretch? :zubo

I honestly can't imagine why it would be so incredibly difficult to wrap one's head around a simple table with maybe seven or eight columns.🤔

Why is it honestly such a monumental struggle for some people to interpret a simple table consisting of seven or eight rows?🤔[/I]

Now we are expected to believe that Massa is somehow to blame because Lewis Hamilton made his own driving errors.🙏 🙏 🙏
Why couldn't he just drive like Jenson Button, with far fewer mistakes, back when he was actually performing at a higher level?🤣

Russell can barely even fit into Hamilton's car, honestly. He’ll probably have to race in shoes two sizes too small just to make it work. Claims it hurts, but he says he'll tough it out.

Douglas Roberts49 said:Russell overtakes Bottas 😁 again

hihi

graniteharbor502 said:Why is it honestly such a monumental struggle for some people to interpret a simple table consisting of seven or eight rows?🤔[/I]

Now we are expected to believe that Massa is somehow to blame because Lewis Hamilton made his own driving errors.🙏 🙏 🙏
Why couldn't he just drive like Jenson Button, with far fewer mistakes, back when he was actually performing at a higher level?🤣

I don't think Lewis Hamilton actually made a mistake there; it honestly feels more like Felipe Massa was just on a mission of his own! 😁

I guess I have to wonder, are we actually attempting to provide some sort of objective value judgment here, or are we all just cheering for our favorites?

I guess if we aren't going to beat around the bush, I’d love to hear what you think, because I honestly find myself wondering who you would personally pick as the superior driver and the more successful competitor in the world of Formula 1?

I find myself constantly weighing this one in my mind, though I suppose there isn't really a single right answer, is there? If you're asking me whether I'd rather see Jenson Button or Lewis Hamilton take the glory, it’s such a tough call! On one hand, you have the sheer, effortless brilliance of Lewis Hamilton, which is just staggering to watch, but then you have Jenson Button's incredible finesse and that smooth style that always seemed to make racing look so easy. It’s a bit of a toss-up for me, I guess, depending on what kind of driving you personally find more captivating!

wiredfalcon2 said:Russell can barely even fit into Hamilton's car, honestly. He’ll probably have to race in shoes two sizes too small just to make it work. Claims it hurts, but he says he'll tough it out.

I'm officially done with this "GOAT" nonsense. He's just as tiny as his ego.

☕