All or Nothing

Look, I could honestly tell you you're being incredibly dense if you didn't realize this movie is depicting the absolute bottom of the barrel in New York City, because it clearly DOES... For God's sake, the guy is begging his daughter and his wife for spare change just to pay the radio bill, and he still can't make ends meet... Everyone lives in these run-down buildings that Americans would call "the projects"... One character is such a massive alcoholic it's almost a caricature (okay, maybe that's not poverty—it's a cliché, especially when that guy has a heart attack and says the stupidest line in the whole movie: "Are you crying?" and then these idiots in the theater around me start laughing... Seriously, you think that's a good ending?)... Every single character is struggling, and no matter how you look at it, those struggles are all tied back to financial hardship, which is why I'm saying this is the worst kind of poverty... Man, if I were one of the people in this film, I'd be living like royalty by comparison... ]

Listen, kid... I actually watched the preview and then sat through the Q&A with Mike Leigh... so I consider myself more than qualified to tell you that you're talking total nonsense... This movie isn't even about the absolute worst poverty in New York City... nor is that housing project the most destitute part of the city... unlike Ken Loach... Leigh doesn't blame society or capitalism for poverty and social issues... and not every character in the film is barely scraping by... the movie is actually about family dynamics and marital relationships... about the struggle to adapt to life changes and the refusal to take responsibility... it's about the sheer difficulty of existing... it's pure existentialism... which clearly you don't get, my dear White!

Personally, one of my favorite scenes is when Maureen sings at the karaoke bar 🙂))

Heh, look, regarding *8 1/2*—that was a mistake, and I owned up to it immediately... Everyone trips up sometimes, right? But apparently, when I mess up, people take it way more seriously than when anyone else screws up...

Mistakes like that just don't happen to people who ACTUALLY LIVE AND BREATHE CINEMA...

I mean, come on, *8 1/2*... it’s sitting on pretty much every major critic's list as one of the top 10 movies of all time... and you don't even know who directed it? 🙄

Michelle Howard2 said:Mickey, seriously, stop digging yourself into this hole. Honestly, on that other thread, you came across as totally clueless—just shallow, dense, and full of hot air. It’s like I have to explain everything twice just for you to get the point...

I agree that Mickey probably left that kind of impression on that specific thread... but you're dragging him into this one now using personal attacks, and you haven't even seen the movie yet...

Michelle Howard2 said:Man, even we act like moderators sometimes. But who’s going to moderate us?! Liberatore is probably flying back to the USA right about now. (We were grabbing coffee yesterday and had a great chat about the movie.) Mickey, I’ve got a feeling you aren't actually this much of a bore in person. Please tell me I'm wrong.

Just a quick reminder, this thread is specifically for "All or Nothing"

Mickey is definitely not a bore, and I bet you aren't either 😉 🙂))

I honestly think if you two met in real life, you'd totally geek out over movies together... I just don't know what your current favorite is right now??? 🙄 😢

hehe, this reminded me of something. I was reading this little booklet recently (some festival program) where some guy—maybe it was Peterlic? damn, whatever, he was a total hack—mixed up Star Wars with 2001: A Space Odyssey. You don't make mistakes like that if you actually give a damn about movies. 😛

Blue Eyes said:Mickey isn't a total lost cause, and I honestly don't think you are either.😉 🙂))

Neither one of them is a lost cause. 🙂 I've checked. 🙂 They're both just absolute messes...😁😈

Taylor Cruz7 said:P.S. I absolutely love lemonade! 😁😈

I know you love it. 😉 You were the first one to come at me... you actually wrote that if someone doesn't think "Stealing Beauty" is a good movie, they basically don't understand cinematic art. 😁 So, now White has shown up to play defender. 😁 Unlike White... your film knowledge has actually gotten a lot better. 😉 🙂))

I am absolutely cracking up. 😁😁😈

slyrider16 said:Haha, this totally reminded me of something. I was reading this little booklet recently (part of a festival program) where some guy—maybe it was Peterlic? Honestly, who cares—completely mixed up Star Wars with 2001: A Space Odyssey. You just don't see mistakes like that from people who actually know their cinema.😛

That’s a bit of a low blow... I mess up sometimes too... I'll say right when I mean left... though, okay fine, I *actually* know my left from my right. I bet even Peterlic had a brain fart once or twice. But look at White—he didn't just mix them up, he genuinely BELIEVED Bergman directed 8 1/2... he wasn't just wrong, he truly thought it was true!

Whatever, did White mean it or not? Who knows... Honestly, I just found it hilarious how people let stuff like that slide, even in official press releases where you’d actually expect someone to be paying attention. (The text was basically saying... where the tilted letters were all over the place, mimicking Kubrick’s Odyssey...) Yeah, clearly they're too cheap to hire an editor. 🙂

Blue Eyes said:I mean, I get it—Mickey probably did leave that kind of impression in that other thread... but now you’re dragging him into this one... and honestly, you're just hitting me with ad hominems without even having seen the movie itself...

Yeah, fair point. 😢 My whole defense was basically trying to stand up for Innocence on principle, but let's be real—look, White, when Blue Eyes speaks, there's really no arguing with her. She's just always right. It's frustrating, but it's the truth. 🙏

And if I can jump in as an outsider here, I’d say this has actually been a great, deep dive of a discussion. 👍 And honestly, without White stirring the pot, it wouldn't have gotten nearly this interesting. 🙂

Michelle Howard2 said:Yeah, you nailed it. 😢 My excuse was that I was just trying to defend Innocence on principle without taking sides, but let’s be real—White, when Blue Eyes speaks, the debate is over. She's just always right. It's frustrating, but it's the truth. 🙏

Nah, you were just sucking up to White just to avoid agreeing with Mickey... don't tell me the same person who attacked Vuce for having zero "taste" when it comes to movies... is suddenly defending that exact same lack of taste...

I'm not into people playing games with me... or bowing down 🙏 ...I want an actual, reasoned debate with people who hold different views... but after dealing with White, I know that's just not happening... 🙄

Michelle Howard2 said:If I may jump in as an outside observer, I actually think this has been a really solid and thorough debate. 👍 Honestly, it wouldn't have reached this level without White. 🙂

The only issue is that since most of you clearly know your stuff, it turns into this childish little game of "who's the smartest in the room." Personally, I find that whole attitude pretty obnoxious—I've dealt with it plenty of times in the music scene. It’s always easy to act like an expert when you're just skimming the surface, but the second someone challenges you, suddenly it's a declaration of war. It's just exhausting.

Blue Eyes said:Nah, you were just picking on White just so you wouldn't have to agree with Mickey... don't tell me the same person who went after Vuce for being "tacky" when it comes to movies... is suddenly out here defending that exact kind of TACKINESS...

That’s just not how it went down. I wasn't pushing back against Mickey because of him personally; it's more that when people adopt that "know-it-all" attitude, they basically kill any chance of an actual conversation. Who’s ever going to feel comfortable sharing a different take if the "authorities" around here just shut them down instantly? As for my run-in with Vuce, I stepped in because he was acting pretty much like Mickey does on this board—being way too aggressive, forcing his views on everyone, and getting insulting toward anyone who doesn't see eye-to-eye with him. Let's look past what the movie actually is or whose side we're on based on whether we agree with a specific critique. The real issue here is the way people talk to one another. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion—even if that opinion is totally stupid—but nobody has the right to be a jerk about it and insult others, even when they think they're 100% right. So, it's not that I'm trying to defend or attack some specific aesthetic rule; I'm just trying to defend the basic principle of having a decent discussion. That's why I got involved in both situations, even though I haven't actually seen either 🙂 and especially since I'm dealing with fellow moderators here.

Michelle Howard2 said:If I can jump in here as an outsider, I’d say this has been a really solid, deep discussion. 👍 Honestly, it wouldn't have gotten this interesting without White. 🙂

I don't know if you're actually an outsider or not, 😉...but I definitely agree we've leveled up this boring little subforum. Usually, posts here are just stuff like... "Just saw some movie, 2/10, skip it..." or "That flick was amazing, loved the lead actress, check it out..." 🙄

Taylor Cruz7, who exactly beat me and where? 😳 😠 🙂 😁

Michelle Howard2 said:That’s just not right. I wasn't reacting to Mickey because of him personally; I was reacting because that kind of "know-it-all" attitude kills any actual conversation. If the "authorities" here immediately shut someone down the second they step out of line, who's actually going to feel safe sharing a different perspective? As for Vuce, I jumped in because his behavior was pretty much mirroring Mickey's—being overly aggressive and forcing his views on everyone while insulting anyone who disagrees. Let's look past what movie we're talking about or whose side we're on based on whether we agree with a specific take. The real issue here is *how* we discuss things. Everyone has a right to their opinion—even if it's a stupid one—but nobody has the right to be a jerk about it or insult others. Even if you're 100% right, being an asshole doesn't make it okay. So, I'm not trying to defend some aesthetic theory; I'm trying to defend the basic principle of having a decent discussion. That's why I got involved in both cases, even though I haven't actually seen 🙂 and since it involves the moderators.

I wouldn't say Mickey's approach was anything to write home about either... but your involvement here felt pretty one-sided. You completely ignored words like moron and stupid used in Vajtin's posts. And yeah, I totally agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion... but I also have the right to state my belief that White isn't understood in this film. Of course, I should back it up with arguments... which is exactly what I've been doing.
🙂

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE MOVIE:

Alright, we've got three families here..

First, there's the family with the overweight dad and the thin Mother. She just has zero respect for her husband. It bugs her that he’s heavy, and she blames him for passing those traits down to the kids. If you remember, at the end, she even accuses him of being the source of some family illness. He just gets under her skin. The love is gone, plain and simple, and it eats at both of them. Since he's the more sentimental type, it hits him harder. There's that one scene between them that I actually liked—if nobody minds me saying so. But honestly? It should have been stronger. It should have left a lump in my throat. It didn't. Why? Who knows. No lump for me...
The heavy sister feels like a side note. That scene between her and that guy was a total miss. It should have been cut entirely; making it short just made it look ridiculous. Like, the sister gets offended and goes for a walk along the pier.. ugh. What was the writer even trying to say there?

Then there's the family with the drunk woman, the hateful taxi driver, and the daughter who's a prostitute. Again, there should have been a lump in my throat when we saw that little kid carving an "s" into his body. I felt a twinge, sure, but no real lump. Someone messed up again. But the scene where the daughter calls out her parents for being useless is good. They're just taking up space when they should be calling the police after that crash. But they don't care. Why call the cops? They can't be bothered; they'd rather just watch TV. That dynamic was handled okay, but it leans toward bad.

Finally, the family with the mother stuck in her past and the pregnant daughter. Pointless. The mother is super liberal because she's already been through it all. She'll help her daughter. I don't even know what the writer was aiming for here. And frankly, the execution was poor. I will say, though, that Mother is the most likable character in the movie, but I guess that's by design. She's sweet, but man, given everything she went through... how is she still so optimistic?!

That final scene by the hospital bed is just pure "everything is fine" nonsense. In my opinion, this film could have been a masterpiece. The script had potential, but man, was it hard to pull off. It just didn't quite make it. Not for me...

Mantra 👍

By the way, isn't it high time we split "Movie" into just "Movie" and "Bespuca visual reality"? 😁

I feel like people pile way too much theoretical heavy lifting onto movies as an art form without actually having any solid ground to stand on. As a medium, film has its own set of rules—you know, the 120-minute runtime and the viewer's mental engagement—which are (ahem) incredibly modest compared to other forms of art. So, sometimes when I’m reading these "inspired" deep-dive analyses, I find myself wondering how on earth I managed to miss something so obvious. But the answer is pretty clear (at least to me 😉) — there is what is inherent to the movie we are watching, and then there is that entirely different visual sin formed within ourselves.

P.S. S. Titanic is super. That’s just a fact. I polished off eight dumplings while watching it, fell head over heels for the lead actress, and I’m pretty sure I cried through half of it. If I hear one more person say that movie sucks, I’m going full Mickey and White—I’ll be the most toxic person on this board! :)

...though maybe there were a few too many scenes of people falling and tumbling around before hitting the water. But everything else? Great...

Blue Eyes said:>
Look, I'm not saying Mickey's performance was some kind of masterpiece either... but you're being totally one-sided here. You completely ignored how much White used words like idiotic and stupid in his posts. And yeah, sure, everyone’s entitled to their opinion, but I’m also entitled to say that I don't think White actually gets the movie—provided, of course, that I back it up with actual reasoning... which is exactly what I'm doing
🙂

My take was "one-sided" only because everyone jumped on White the second he didn't bow down and call the movie a masterpiece, opting instead to just call it a good film. Honestly, I don't think it's that big of a deal to suggest someone doesn't "get" a movie, especially if you're actually laying out an argument (which is a good thing!), but it's a whole different story when a forum moderator snaps and says:

White, it is honestly mind-blowing how little you know about cinema, yet you try so hard to show everyone off as some kind of total amateur... Did you get bullied as a kid or something, or are you just naturally drawn to this kind of masochism?

No, you genuinely have no clue what makes a movie work.

you look pretty clueless after throwing those kinds of baseless outbursts

(I seriously hate posts cluttered with quotes)