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Offside Chat Archives (2014-2021)

Started by Morgan Williams · · 👁 845 views · 18K replies

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Participants Morgan WilliamsRachel Cooper3Joseph Clark37Keith Patel81darkseal9neonfalcon16urbanhawk17Amanda Evans2bluebison47brightpilot6Patrick MartinJoseph Fisher3steelharbor9Robin Fox2Maria AndersonAnthony Jackson2Jason Newmanruggedjackal46Michelle Palmer6Jeffrey Edwards76Jason Campbell70Anthony Barrett37graniteangler31Dennis Evans6 …
James Anderson5 James Anderson5 Regular
460 messages
joined Jan 2010
#5441 ·
Larry Fox5 said:Look, I just can't get behind that. Music isn't just some "tool"—it’s at least as important as the lyrics, if you ask me... actually, it's more important. What about all the instrumental symphonies? Classical, jazz, folk, rock...

By your "formula," guys like Mozart, Bach, Haydn, Beethoven & stuff wouldn't even count as great artists—even though people were writing full symphonies for orchestras and scores for fifty different instruments. You basically can't even compose that stuff unless you have perfect pitch...

Not to mention, as much as I love listening to Bob Dylan and guys like him, they all pale in comparison to the greats like Mozart and Bach that you mentioned...
neonheron202 neonheron202 Active Member
73 messages
joined Apr 2014
#5442 ·
graniteheron132 said:Honestly, I think this might be the most impactful review I have ever encountered.🤣

God, I can't believe it. I actually went through the trouble of downloading the wrong file—it was some old San Andreas Earthquake thing... 🤦

What absolute garbage, man...
Amanda Evans2 Amanda Evans2 Veteran
1.1K messages
joined Nov 2014
#5443 ·
neonheron202 said:God, I can't believe it. I actually went through the trouble of downloading the wrong file—it was some old San Andreas Earthquake thing... 🤦

What absolute garbage, man...

There really isn't much of a difference, believe me

I'll say it again—look at the Coen brothers; their character galleries in films like Barton Fink or Burn After Reading are incomparable 🙏 🙏
Matthew Anderson4 Matthew Anderson4 Regular
598 messages
joined Jun 2013
#5444 ·
Larry Fox5 said:Look, I just can't get behind that. Music isn't just some "tool"—it’s at least as important as the lyrics, if you ask me... actually, it's more important. What about all the instrumental symphonies? Classical, jazz, folk, rock...

By your "formula," guys like Mozart, Bach, Haydn, Beethoven & stuff wouldn't even count as great artists—even though people were writing full symphonies for orchestras and scores for fifty different instruments. You basically can't even compose that stuff unless you have perfect pitch...

My whole post was pretty abstract, maybe even sounding a bit preachy, so why take my use of 'storyteller' so literally? Like, am I really crazy enough to claim the greatest artists are only the ones who scribble lyrics? To me, Mozart and his crew are storytellers. No clue what they are to you or what else they could be. Maybe I should've said you're a better artist because you're a better storyteller. And you're a better storyteller if you can actually pull a listener into your world. In that sense, Bob Dylan is at the top of modern music. Not just for the lyrics, but for the whole package; the whole thing which includes the lyrics, which I just simplified by calling "music." It's all just tools. Melody and lyrics. If it wasn't a tool but some ultimate end goal (what else would it be?), then he wouldn't be an artist, he'd just be a hack. Like that Yngwie Malmsteen guy or whatever—as hard as he plays, he's a total hack as an artist because he's empty. There's nothing there. His goal is technique, and if technique is your goal, you're a hack, not an artist. A real artist is a storyteller; they use their craft as a tool to tell you what's going on inside them (unlike Yngwie, where the guitar is basically just a way to jerk off, for example). That's what I meant by storyteller. Hopefully clearer now. Thx, sry, bb.
ruggedjackal46 ruggedjackal46 Regular
775 messages
joined May 2007
#5445 ·
It looks like everyone on the Football forum is obsessed with Amadeus
Matthew Anderson4 Matthew Anderson4 Regular
598 messages
joined Jun 2013
#5446 ·
And Dylan’s sitting there on some all-time greats list right up there with Mozart and Beethoven. Modern music just lacks that scale and complexity, so you can't really count him out for that. I feel for anyone who doesn't get it.
Matthew Young35 Matthew Young35 Veteran
1.1K messages
joined Jan 2018
#5447 ·
There’s something truly captivating about the way Dylan delivers a story through song. Take "Hurricane," for instance.
Larry Fox5 Larry Fox5 Regular
348 messages
joined Sep 2003
#5448 ·
Look at him go—defending Dylan like his life depends on it. Whatever, let him have it... 🤣

Obviously, Bob is in a league of his own—no debate there. It just ticked me off how vague you were being—you basically pushed the actual music to the side instead of focusing on it.

To me, Dylan was always like Leonard Cohen—just someone who uses music as a vehicle to get the lyrics out. A guy with incredible poetry—except one grew up right here in the States where he could become a legend, while the other was stuck in some backwater nowhere that barely even understood him...

Matthew Young35 said:There’s something truly captivating about the way Dylan delivers a story through song. Take "Hurricane," for instance.

That’s easily one of my favorite Dylan tracks.
Alex Brown50 Alex Brown50 Member
37 messages
joined Jul 2015
#5449 ·
It makes zero sense trying to judge classical music and rock by the same yardstick. One is all about technical mastery and sophistication—while rock is basically just a Dionysian trance for the masses... But that doesn't make it any less "valuable"... obviously both genres borrow bits from each other.

Honestly, those shredder guitarists in rock don't really do it for me... I just don't see the point. Guys like Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen are in their own league entirely—they're more like poets than pop stars. Even then, you can skip through a lot of their stuff, which is the downside of mainstream music—there’s no quality control when everything is driven by pure instinct.
Larry Fox5 Larry Fox5 Regular
348 messages
joined Sep 2003
#5450 ·
Alex Brown50 said:It makes zero sense trying to judge classical music and rock by the same yardstick. One is all about technical mastery and sophistication—while rock is basically just a Dionysian trance for the masses... But that doesn't make it any less "valuable"... obviously both genres borrow bits from each other.

Honestly, those shredder guitarists in rock don't really do it for me... I just don't see the point. Guys like Bob Dylan or Leonard Cohen are in their own league entirely—they're more like poets than pop stars. Even then, you can skip through a lot of their stuff, which is the downside of mainstream music—there’s no quality control when everything is driven by pure instinct.

What do you mean you don't see it? The point is the music! It’s simple—just like Bob Dylan was a legend because of his lyrics, other musicians are legends because of the actual sound, and the words don't even matter. Even with Jimi, the lyrics were pretty basic, but he pulled more out of that guitar than Dylan ever did from a pen. You could say the same about Santana—it's basically just him singing "listen to my rhythm, baby" over and over, but man, that composition is killer.

Why would Santana even need lyrics for a track like "Oye Como Va"—when the music itself says everything that needs saying?...
graniteheron132 graniteheron132 Active Member
109 messages
joined Apr 2010
#5451 ·
neonheron202 said:God, I can't believe it. I actually went through the trouble of downloading the wrong file—it was some old San Andreas Earthquake thing... 🤦

What absolute garbage, man...

I'm guessing it's one of those Asylum productions.🤣
Alex Brown50 Alex Brown50 Member
37 messages
joined Jul 2015
#5452 ·
Larry Fox5 said:What do you mean you don't see it? The point is the music! It’s simple—just like Bob Dylan was a legend because of his lyrics, other musicians are legends because of the actual sound, and the words don't even matter. Even with Jimi, the lyrics were pretty basic, but he pulled more out of that guitar than Dylan ever did from a pen. You could say the same about Santana—it's basically just him singing "listen to my rhythm, baby" over and over, but man, that composition is killer.

Why would Santana even need lyrics for a track like "Oye Como Va"—when the music itself says everything that needs saying?...

See, with Jimi, it wasn't about being a technical wizard—it was about that madness and trance state that the skill helped him reach. With those other two guys you mentioned, it's more about the raw technique, which—honestly—just doesn't do much for me.

And I wouldn't really put Jimi and Dylan in the same bucket anyway... totally different worlds. Dylan is wordy, cerebral... a poet, you know?
James Anderson5 James Anderson5 Regular
460 messages
joined Jan 2010
#5453 ·
Matthew Anderson4 said:And Dylan’s sitting there on some all-time greats list right up there with Mozart and Beethoven. Modern music just lacks that scale and complexity, so you can't really count him out for that. I feel for anyone who doesn't get it.

I agree with you regarding modern music; Dylan is definitely at the top. But honestly, I think anyone with even a basic understanding of classical music would pity you for not seeing how Mozart and Beethoven operate on an entirely different level. It’s just like how fine art stands above photography, even if both are valuable ways to express ourselves...

If we were sending a space probe out with humanity's greatest achievements or things that truly represent us as a species, do you really think someone would pack Bach and Mozart versus Bob Dylan?

Rock and pop belong to different categories; they have value, but they are inherently secondary to peak classical music. Besides, Beethoven has been performed in concert halls for 250 years, and I seriously doubt anyone will still be playing Dylan in those same venues centuries from now, regardless of what people think today. Even looking back at the music from the '20s, '30s, or '40s, so much of it is already forgotten. Very little survives the test of time, whether it's books or music...
neonheron202 neonheron202 Active Member
73 messages
joined Apr 2014
#5454 ·
graniteheron132 said:I'm guessing it's one of those Asylum productions.🤣

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4547120/?ref_=nv_sr_2

Even after sitting through an entire hour of this, I find myself still wondering when the actual rock music is going to kick in.🙏 🤦
graniteheron132 graniteheron132 Active Member
109 messages
joined Apr 2010
#5455 ·
neonheron202 said:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4547120/?ref_=nv_sr_2

Even after sitting through an entire hour of this, I find myself still wondering when the actual rock music is going to kick in.🙏 🤦

Don't sweat it, though. They catch plenty of people just like us—that's exactly how they play it. 😁
Robin Fox2 Robin Fox2 Regular
523 messages
joined Apr 2016
#5456 ·
I recall a certain scene from a movie—the title escapes me, so I’ll have to look it up... they managed to absolutely wreck the largest video rental chain in the States by ordering about a million copies of that specific film 🤣
Matthew Anderson4 Matthew Anderson4 Regular
598 messages
joined Jun 2013
#5457 ·
Larry Fox5 said:Look at him go—defending Dylan like his life depends on it. Whatever, let him have it... 🤣

Obviously, Bob is in a league of his own—no debate there. It just ticked me off how vague you were being—you basically pushed the actual music to the side instead of focusing on it.

To me, Dylan was always like Leonard Cohen—just someone who uses music as a vehicle to get the lyrics out. A guy with incredible poetry—except one grew up right here in the States where he could become a legend, while the other was stuck in some backwater nowhere that barely even understood him...

That’s easily one of my favorite Dylan tracks.

Croce would be our Dylan, but I think there's more to the gap between them than just that one stroke of luck you're talking about.
Matthew Young35 Matthew Young35 Veteran
1.1K messages
joined Jan 2018
#5458 ·
Both Dylan and the chair are absolute geniuses.
Matthew Anderson4 Matthew Anderson4 Regular
598 messages
joined Jun 2013
#5459 ·
James Anderson5 said:I agree with you regarding modern music; Dylan is definitely at the top. But honestly, I think anyone with even a basic understanding of classical music would pity you for not seeing how Mozart and Beethoven operate on an entirely different level. It’s just like how fine art stands above photography, even if both are valuable ways to express ourselves...

If we were sending a space probe out with humanity's greatest achievements or things that truly represent us as a species, do you really think someone would pack Bach and Mozart versus Bob Dylan?

Rock and pop belong to different categories; they have value, but they are inherently secondary to peak classical music. Besides, Beethoven has been performed in concert halls for 250 years, and I seriously doubt anyone will still be playing Dylan in those same venues centuries from now, regardless of what people think today. Even looking back at the music from the '20s, '30s, or '40s, so much of it is already forgotten. Very little survives the test of time, whether it's books or music...

It’s like comparing LeBron to Jordan, or maybe Picasso to Rembrandt. To me, the gap between Dylan and Mozart is just down to timing—purely fate. Everything happens when it's meant to. Art styles shift, and an artist is always shaped by their era, but they aren't trapped by it. Even Tolstoy didn't write for the stage, but that doesn't make him any less of a genius than a folk singer.
The whole painting vs. photography comparison feels right on the surface since they look similar, but it’s total nonsense once you actually dig in. They aren't even playing the same game. Painting is about building a new reality from scratch, whereas photography is basically just stripping down what's already there. A feature film is more like a painting than a documentary is—and a documentary is closer to a photo than it is to a movie, at least in terms of how they communicate. Trying to force that analogy is like comparing apples to oranges. It's as pointless as trying to compare Mozart to Bob Dylan.

James Anderson5 said:I agree with you regarding modern music; Dylan is definitely at the top. But honestly, I think anyone with even a basic understanding of classical music would pity you for not seeing how Mozart and Beethoven operate on an entirely different level. It’s just like how fine art stands above photography, even if both are valuable ways to express ourselves...

If we were sending a space probe out with humanity's greatest achievements or things that truly represent us as a species, do you really think someone would pack Bach and Mozart versus Bob Dylan?

Rock and pop belong to different categories; they have value, but they are inherently secondary to peak classical music. Besides, Beethoven has been performed in concert halls for 250 years, and I seriously doubt anyone will still be playing Dylan in those same venues centuries from now, regardless of what people think today. Even looking back at the music from the '20s, '30s, or '40s, so much of it is already forgotten. Very little survives the test of time, whether it's books or music...

Hopefully he can find room for both. Wouldn't want him sending over an 8MB memory card from a PlayStation 2 or something.
Your question doesn't even make sense. You’d send the music over anyway, even if it was just some indie rock instead of Dostoevsky, knowing damn well some random Martian isn't going to translate the prose, let alone read it. They can at least listen to the tunes. Doesn't mean American folk-rock is better than classic literature, or that the band is somehow bigger than the author.

James Anderson5 said:I agree with you regarding modern music; Dylan is definitely at the top. But honestly, I think anyone with even a basic understanding of classical music would pity you for not seeing how Mozart and Beethoven operate on an entirely different level. It’s just like how fine art stands above photography, even if both are valuable ways to express ourselves...

If we were sending a space probe out with humanity's greatest achievements or things that truly represent us as a species, do you really think someone would pack Bach and Mozart versus Bob Dylan?

Rock and pop belong to different categories; they have value, but they are inherently secondary to peak classical music. Besides, Beethoven has been performed in concert halls for 250 years, and I seriously doubt anyone will still be playing Dylan in those same venues centuries from now, regardless of what people think today. Even looking back at the music from the '20s, '30s, or '40s, so much of it is already forgotten. Very little survives the test of time, whether it's books or music...

More apples and pears. Purely aesthetic stuff. Would you even show up to a concert hall to hear Dylan if he wasn't the one playing? Modern artists create for themselves—Dylan creates for himself—just so he can step out on stage and actually perform it. He isn't doing it for some hired guns scattered across the globe like they do in classical music. And what about those playwrights whose works have been on stage for centuries? Does that automatically make them better than novelists whose books just collect dust on a shelf? The "test of time" thing is kind of a wash. You can look back 500 years and find something decent from pretty much every single year. You’ll find something signed by Hemingway, maybe some Twain or Oscar Wilde. They all passed the test, and there's zero reason to think Dylan—basically the GOAT of modern music—won't. We aren't even talking about Joy Division here. So, the test of time doesn't really tell you who belongs at the absolute top. Honestly, the most objective way to judge an artist's impact is looking at how much they mattered when they were actually relevant—kind of like how soccer legends are judged by how they dominated their own era.
Matthew Young35 Matthew Young35 Veteran
1.1K messages
joined Jan 2018
#5460 ·
Good grief... Saint-Exupéry... I used to know *The Little Prince* by heart when I was just a six-year-old kid. Now, all I can manage to conjure up is that very first sentence.
And if my memory serves, I can still recall that exchange: "Why are you drinking?" "To forget." "To forget what?" "To forget that I am drinking."

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