Offside Chat Archives (2014-2021)

Anthony Jackson2 said:I wouldn't call it communist—more of a socialist mindset. And yeah, I agree the government sticks its nose into everything too much (answering Justin James10 directly), but while the state needs to let the market breathe, it ultimately serves the citizens, not just big capital. Total liberalization would be madness—even much stronger economies couldn't handle it, let alone ours.

Living standards in America are climbing, costs go up every year, and wages just aren't keeping pace. People keep pushing for tax reforms and lowering payroll taxes—and while I agree we need them, I'm skeptical they'll actually put money in workers' pockets here. It'll probably just end up lining someone else's pockets instead. Closing the market to cheap foreign labor is honestly the simplest way for the state to protect workers and force these "entrepreneurs" to pay what the market actually demands. If they can't afford it, someone else will take their spot. This is especially true for the hospitality industry; we break records for tourism revenue every single year, yet I get the feeling seasonal wages are actually dropping. It's absurd, which is why I'm firmly against bringing in cheap labor for that sector.

For years, employers exploited people, and now that the tide is turning, suddenly everyone wants the government to step in. They shouldn't. Let them figure it out themselves. James Anderson5 was laughing, but let's be real—it was the employers who drove people out of the country; the government just helped along.

I'm 100% with you on this. If you want to see what happens when you go heavy on deregulation and complete liberalization, just look at the US. It's the richest, most powerful nation on the planet because they can just print money whenever they feel like it since the dollar is king, yet half the country is out there grinding for less than $30k a year. 🤣 Sure, I guess their lower class might have more assets than a decent chunk of the middle class over in Europe, but still, those numbers above are just... man, it's pretty depressing.

Morgan Foster said:The Germans partially adopted that worker self-management model thanks to their local SPD—though, of course, they optimized it for their free-market economy. It isn't inherently bad... it's just a question of scale and financial viability. It’s easy to make money or run numbers, but that isn't everything in economics—you actually have to incentivize the economy somehow.

I know I'm generalizing, but how exactly do we incentivize tourism here? It's "beneficial" if a tourist shows up, drops some cash, and then leaves immediately. You sell them the sun and the beach, and because of that top-tier service, they might never come back. Without a different—and much more rational—mindset, there won't be any progress for us...

I mean, look, worker self-management had its ups and downs. Very little in this world is strictly good or strictly bad, right? I wasn't really attacking the concept itself; I was more trying to say that even though it's kind of a relic now, it's become more of a burden for us than hardline communism was for people in places like the Czech Republic or Romania, who were starting from a way worse position. Our real issue is that we somehow mashed together the absolute worst parts of capitalism and worker management, while tossing out everything that actually worked. Even those Scandinavian countries used bits and pieces of that system to build their famous Nordic model.

Anthony Jackson2 said:I wouldn't call it communist—more of a socialist mindset. And yeah, I agree the government sticks its nose into everything too much (answering Justin James10 directly), but while the state needs to let the market breathe, it ultimately serves the citizens, not just big capital. Total liberalization would be madness—even much stronger economies couldn't handle it, let alone ours.

Living standards in America are climbing, costs go up every year, and wages just aren't keeping pace. People keep pushing for tax reforms and lowering payroll taxes—and while I agree we need them, I'm skeptical they'll actually put money in workers' pockets here. It'll probably just end up lining someone else's pockets instead. Closing the market to cheap foreign labor is honestly the simplest way for the state to protect workers and force these "entrepreneurs" to pay what the market actually demands. If they can't afford it, someone else will take their spot. This is especially true for the hospitality industry; we break records for tourism revenue every single year, yet I get the feeling seasonal wages are actually dropping. It's absurd, which is why I'm firmly against bringing in cheap labor for that sector.

For years, employers exploited people, and now that the tide is turning, suddenly everyone wants the government to step in. They shouldn't. Let them figure it out themselves. James Anderson5 was laughing, but let's be real—it was the employers who drove people out of the country; the government just helped along.

Let's be real, total deregulation doesn't actually exist anywhere in the world—it's just a myth. Even here in the States, you've got massive subsidies flowing into the financial sector and the auto industry, not to mention how deeply the government is intertwined with big oil, pharma, and all those other powerful lobbies...

You're saying that closing off the market for cheap labor is the easiest way for the government to protect workers' rights and force these "entrepreneurs" to pay what the market actually demands. If they can't afford it, someone else will just step up to take their spot. That seems especially true for the tourism industry—we hit record numbers for hotel stays and revenue every single year, yet I get the feeling that seasonal wages are actually dropping year after year...

Trust me, your average small business owner just can't afford to hire someone at full pay, cover all those taxes, and report the actual salary without going broke. I could put together a quick mock financial statement for you if you want to see what I mean... Tax burdens here in the States are brutal compared to some other places, and honestly, who would move to such an expensive, bureaucratic mess to offer local employers a better alternative? There’s just no incentive for that. Even looking at how major companies like Tesla scout locations, if the government doesn't step up with real incentives, nobody's going to bother showing up...

Capital always looks for the most competitive places to do business, and clearly, that isn't America due to various long-standing issues... It’s no surprise that the current policies and business climate have directly led to people leaving the country...

It’s hard to really tackle the whole issue of people leaving the country in a few quick posts without oversimplifying things... But honestly, the American economy started heading down the wrong path back in the 90s, starting with all that shady corporate privatization, and then they just tried to buy social peace by pushing everyone into early retirement or bloating the government payroll...

The cycle just keeps spinning with rising crime rates, bloated government bureaucracy, and a judicial system that's losing its integrity. We've drifted away from true free enterprise and straight into crony capitalism, where you can't even land a major contract without playing politics... It feels like a tiny, well-connected elite runs everything, and they have zero incentive to change things. In fact, they probably prefer seeing people move away, since it makes keeping their grip on power much easier...

Look, a janitor in Germany can easily pull in about $2,200 a month if they're looking to work. You can grab a decent little apartment in a smaller town for maybe $550 too. Where on earth are you supposed to find jobs like that here in the States? I remember back in the day, I was pulling 17-hour shifts just working for $1333.

It’s nothing more than pure usury, ladies and gentlemen.

Amanda Evans2 said:It’s nothing more than pure usury, ladies and gentlemen.

🤣

When I was sixteen, I spent a summer living near Chicago with a family that had relocated from Ottawa. It was your quintessential American suburb—rows of houses with attached garages, plenty of larger folks everywhere, and everything sold in massive bulk sizes. That family was quite driven; both the father and his oldest son were engineers. The younger son was still in high school, and I actually attended summer school at a local public school, which felt like stepping right into one of those classic movie clichés. All four of them worked incredibly hard. The younger son managed to juggle two summer jobs, the father worked for a decent firm, the mother was at a department store, and the older son earned a pretty solid salary as an engineer. Despite having four incomes, they all lived under one roof. Eventually, the older son decided to start a small taxi service with just one car to run on top of his regular job and weekends. At the time, I couldn't quite wrap my head around why he would take on more work. Now, I think I understand. They made it clear to me that bills don't pay themselves and that life is a constant hustle. You might have a steady job today, but there's no guarantee about tomorrow. You might own a home, but if you miss a single mortgage payment, you could find yourself out on the street.

What I really took away from that summer is that you should never expect anything from anyone. And you certainly shouldn't expect much from the government.

The American economic structure is fundamentally dysfunctional, and frankly, there’s no reason to strive for its perfection.

Furthermore, they operate with a level of organization that makes this backwater territory look like complete chaos by comparison.

brightpilot6 said:The American economic structure is fundamentally dysfunctional, and frankly, there’s no reason to strive for its perfection.

Furthermore, they operate with a level of organization that makes this backwater territory look like complete chaos by comparison.

There’s no doubt that American society is much cleaner than what you see in Europe. I don't mean that crime doesn't exist—there's actually so much of it it's hard to wrap your head around—but life just moves much more practically and efficiently there. For starters, people get paid by the hour because employers want to know exactly what they're paying for.

Just one small difference, though, to show you what real business looks like. It might seem minor, but I guess it reveals a completely different worldview.

On one hand: I used to work at a hostel in Chicago, which was the only one in the city back then and, naturally, it was state-run. It was a crazy operation, but I didn't stay long. Basically, for every single guest, I had to manually write their info on three different forms. Name, last name, DOB, home state, ID number, check-in/out dates, etc. Those papers were supposedly sent to the police, the hostel archives, and the local tourism board, but in reality, they probably just went straight into the trash. I mean, does anyone honestly think anyone ever reads or checks those? 🤣 Also, if you were a resident of Chicago, you weren't allowed to stay at that hostel, even if your house had just burned down. That's just how the rules worked; people would bring their girlfriends there. 🤣 So, you show up with cash, you want a room, you want to pay upfront to fill the place during the off-season, and you still can't?

On the other hand: In America, when you check into any kind of lodging—whether it’s a roadside motel, a hostel, a boutique hotel, or a massive place like the Bellagio where you might see celebrities gambling at 3 AM—nobody ever asks you for ID or thinks to scribble down your personal details. They just ask for a credit card, swipe it quickly through the machine, hand you the key, and say, "Have a nice day, sir."

I suppose anyone who understands this simple comparison sees the whole picture. We are maybe a hundred years away from even grasping the concept of "business," let alone actually practicing it.

I honestly dig how straightforward Americans can be about what they want in life—it’s refreshing. Bigger house? Better. Massive TV? Obviously better. More cash in the bank? You bet. And at the end of the day, winning is always better than losing, but even when you hit a wall, nobody acts like it's the end of the world. It’s just another hurdle you gotta jump over to keep moving.

Why don't you ask Rimac what business actually means? ☕

Amanda Evans2 said:It’s nothing more than pure usury, ladies and gentlemen.

🤣

Jessica Gonzalez said:There’s no doubt that American society is much cleaner than what you see in Europe. I don't mean that crime doesn't exist—there's actually so much of it it's hard to wrap your head around—but life just moves much more practically and efficiently there. For starters, people get paid by the hour because employers want to know exactly what they're paying for.

Just one small difference, though, to show you what real business looks like. It might seem minor, but I guess it reveals a completely different worldview.

On one hand: I used to work at a hostel in Chicago, which was the only one in the city back then and, naturally, it was state-run. It was a crazy operation, but I didn't stay long. Basically, for every single guest, I had to manually write their info on three different forms. Name, last name, DOB, home state, ID number, check-in/out dates, etc. Those papers were supposedly sent to the police, the hostel archives, and the local tourism board, but in reality, they probably just went straight into the trash. I mean, does anyone honestly think anyone ever reads or checks those? 🤣 Also, if you were a resident of Chicago, you weren't allowed to stay at that hostel, even if your house had just burned down. That's just how the rules worked; people would bring their girlfriends there. 🤣 So, you show up with cash, you want a room, you want to pay upfront to fill the place during the off-season, and you still can't?

On the other hand: In America, when you check into any kind of lodging—whether it’s a roadside motel, a hostel, a boutique hotel, or a massive place like the Bellagio where you might see celebrities gambling at 3 AM—nobody ever asks you for ID or thinks to scribble down your personal details. They just ask for a credit card, swipe it quickly through the machine, hand you the key, and say, "Have a nice day, sir."

I suppose anyone who understands this simple comparison sees the whole picture. We are maybe a hundred years away from even grasping the concept of "business," let alone actually practicing it.

That's pretty much the reality, though I suppose there are a few exceptions out there. Generally speaking in the US, nine out of ten people sitting on massive wealth either acquired it through shady dealings or inherited it. And even those who made their money unethically usually end up blowing it all because they can't manage a legitimate business...

Tourism is the perfect example of how we struggle to think beyond just collecting passive rent...

Just one more thought regarding hotels. In Las Vegas, room rates fluctuate dynamically based on demand—they can actually shift up or down throughout the day. Generally, prices stay pretty low because the main goal is just to keep rooms filled so people show up to gamble, shop, eat, drink, and hit the clubs. Here in the States, we're seeing similar shifts now that sites like Expedia or Airbnb have become so mainstream. We're still catching up in some areas, especially since not every hotel chain is fully privatized yet. I guess our path to growth is pretty straightforward: we need to focus on exports, particularly to international markets, while ramping up tourism. Tourism isn't a bad thing at all; look at how much wealth places like France or Switzerland pull in from visitors. We should definitely lean into it, but we also need to bolster our industrial sector, making sure it's heavily export-oriented. Personally, I think it might even be better if small and medium-sized businesses lead the way. If you look at those old-school massive state-run corporations and their issues with unions and bureaucracy, they don't really represent what serious modern business looks like.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy A31

brightpilot6 said:The American economic structure is fundamentally dysfunctional, and frankly, there’s no reason to strive for its perfection.

Furthermore, they operate with a level of organization that makes this backwater territory look like complete chaos by comparison.

And what exactly should we be aiming for? Venezuela?

I’ve truly never understood this intense anti-American sentiment among people here. We love to poke fun at them, acting like they’re just some foolish, decaying West. But isn't the reality actually quite different? Perhaps we are the ones lacking direction, living in a society that is truly struggling.

Jessica Gonzalez said:Just one more thought regarding hotels. In Las Vegas, room rates fluctuate dynamically based on demand—they can actually shift up or down throughout the day. Generally, prices stay pretty low because the main goal is just to keep rooms filled so people show up to gamble, shop, eat, drink, and hit the clubs. Here in the States, we're seeing similar shifts now that sites like Expedia or Airbnb have become so mainstream. We're still catching up in some areas, especially since not every hotel chain is fully privatized yet. I guess our path to growth is pretty straightforward: we need to focus on exports, particularly to international markets, while ramping up tourism. Tourism isn't a bad thing at all; look at how much wealth places like France or Switzerland pull in from visitors. We should definitely lean into it, but we also need to bolster our industrial sector, making sure it's heavily export-oriented. Personally, I think it might even be better if small and medium-sized businesses lead the way. If you look at those old-school massive state-run corporations and their issues with unions and bureaucracy, they don't really represent what serious modern business looks like.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy A31

I don't think tourism is the issue per se, but it becomes a problem when it makes up 20 percent of your GDP. In France, it's like two percent, and in Germany it's barely one. Even in Spain, which is struggling right now, it's only around four percent.😁.

I'm not quite sure where you're pulling your data from, since different sources can show pretty different things. For instance, if you look at France and the US, they seem almost identical here:
https://knoema.com/atlas/France/topi...percent-of-GDP
https://knoema.com/atlas/USA/top...percent-of-GDP

But I guess that's not really the point. If we have the chance to bring in billions of dollars through tourism, why wouldn't we? It doesn't really impact other industries, and I'm not sure who exactly tourism is supposed to bother. How could millions of international visitors coming here to spend money be a bad thing? It's one of the most profitable businesses globally, which is probably why it's booming everywhere. You even see stories on this forum from people who skipped formal education and jumped straight into tourism trades—making money renting out boats or running excursions—earning kind of money most people can only dream about. It shouldn't be an issue regarding the workforce either, because if there's a labor shortage, you just bring people in. The UAE doesn't even use its own local workforce; everything is done by expats. I think it's all fairly simple: wherever there are jobs and competitive wages, workers will follow. People here are only just starting to grasp the economic realities that govern major, serious markets—things like capital flow, labor mobility, and movement over staying stationary. It might have been a shame if we hadn't joined the global mainstream earlier, as we might have navigated this transition sooner.

Just one question, though: that group of people who moved to Germany, Ireland, Canada, or wherever else—if a war broke out tomorrow, would they really pick up a rifle and head to the borders to defend those places? Probably not. I spent three years living in Sweden, but that country doesn't mean much to me. Not really. It has its qualities and it's economically stable, but it isn't my home or my culture. I was a foreigner from day one and I never tried to become anything more. These are all just economic migrations, and that's just how trends work today. Any trend can shift. Personally, I support people moving away to work, seeing how things are done in other countries, learning something new, and hopefully making some money if they can. I also support bringing in a large number of foreign workers; I think the more, the better. I feel like we could actually use a bit more exposure to different cultures to help push our society toward a more realistic worldview.

Look, there’s a massive difference between discussing business and entrepreneurship and tackling the unemployment crisis in America. They aren't even in the same zip code. Just because a bunch of people hitting up the local unemployment office can't find work outside of a major hub like New York City doesn't mean they lack entrepreneurial spirit or that the economy is failing them personally. I mean, really, what is someone in rural Wyoming supposed to do—start a taxi service? Or launch a high-tech Silicon Valley startup from a farmhouse in West Virginia? With what seed money, and more importantly, with what kind of market? I get it. Some of you are obsessed with corporate ladders, work ethic, and market dynamics because that’s the world you live in. You’re frustrated by low wages for college grads, the lack of hustle, and all those people getting cushy government jobs without lifting a finger. But can we be self-aware enough to look at the bigger picture? Most of the people struggling out there aren't even on your radar. If you don't personally know anyone who’s unemployed, maybe it’s just because you, as a degree-holder living in Manhattan, don't exactly hang out with the jobless folks in rural Montana.

ruggedjackal46 said:Look, there’s a massive difference between discussing business and entrepreneurship and tackling the unemployment crisis in America. They aren't even in the same zip code. Just because a bunch of people hitting up the local unemployment office can't find work outside of a major hub like New York City doesn't mean they lack entrepreneurial spirit or that the economy is failing them personally. I mean, really, what is someone in rural Wyoming supposed to do—start a taxi service? Or launch a high-tech Silicon Valley startup from a farmhouse in West Virginia? With what seed money, and more importantly, with what kind of market? I get it. Some of you are obsessed with corporate ladders, work ethic, and market dynamics because that’s the world you live in. You’re frustrated by low wages for college grads, the lack of hustle, and all those people getting cushy government jobs without lifting a finger. But can we be self-aware enough to look at the bigger picture? Most of the people struggling out there aren't even on your radar. If you don't personally know anyone who’s unemployed, maybe it’s just because you, as a degree-holder living in Manhattan, don't exactly hang out with the jobless folks in rural Montana.

People are starting businesses and making money. In the small town where my late grandmother lived, they're turning old houses into luxury villas with pools to rent out, and it seems to be doing quite well. I guess it doesn't matter much where you live if you're working in something like IT. You probably just need a laptop and a decent internet connection.

I’ve traveled all over the United States, from the small towns to the big cities, and coming from a rural area myself, I have to say I don't quite see eye to eye with ruggedjackal46 on this one. Hardworking people generally don't struggle to find work—whether they're landing a corporate role in Chicago, finding a gig out in the Midwest, or even picking up some freelance side hustles... they make things happen. The ones who stay chronically unemployed are usually just stuck in a state of apathy, almost hoping they won't find anything. Or, you might be looking at folks in their 40s who aren't as mobile or easy to hire as the younger crowd. But even then, most of them still find ways to earn a living under the table.

We want that high Western standard of living, but without actually embracing the full brunt of raw capitalism, right? 🙄

I guess if you had jumped on the Bitcoin bandwagon early enough, you could have just picked up some GPUs at any local Best Buy and started mining. It seems like anyone who doesn't want to put in the work can always find a million excuses as to why they can't.