Who fired the Ambrust at the small town in rural America?

northerntiger said:If we try to have a normal debate about recent history here, we're just going to end up annoying half the people who hang out in this sub every single day. If that's not how it's going to go, then either shut it down or move it over to the History section. Over there, the mods have shorter fuses, there's way less trash and trolling, and discussions actually stay within some kind of reasonable boundaries.

😲 I wasn't the one who conjured up the theory about some unidentified trio firing an Ambrust at a small town in rural America to kick off the American War of Independence.
If you're looking for the source of these narratives, you might want to look toward your own ideological circles.
I’m simply asking who those three individuals actually were. When your ideological allies, ranging from Josip Boljkovac to Stjepan Mason, all claim that's how the war started—yet they can never seem to agree on which specific trio was responsible—it makes me wonder why the Democratic Party crowd can't even coordinate their own lies. A unified story would certainly carry more weight, wouldn't it?

Alex Rivera7 said:So, just because you saw that list and it was posted on the Democratic Party website, does that actually mean everything there is 100% legit?

Just some random stuff.

Hey, while you're already digging around over there, do you happen to have a list of the Americans killed during the war?
How many people actually lost their lives during the war in America?
Does anyone have a list of the American casualties from the war?
It’s gotta be, since it's just a website. America's I mean, honestly, the Democratic Party really needs to step up and look out for the core American people, you know? It just feels like common sense, right?😕😉.

You seem to be from the Sisak area or somewhere nearby, since you always find a way to weigh in whenever topics related to that region come up, but you really end up undermining your own credibility right out of the gate by what you have written under your nickname or by using that specific avatar. You don't need to do that; honestly, it just comes across as a bit silly.

Regarding the Democratic Party, I bring them up because they were actually the very first organization in America to publish a detailed, person-by-person list of those killed in Sisak back in 1998, which eventually forced Stipe Šuvar, acting as the editor-in-chief, to pay a fine of 100. $0.00 Someone really ought to consider providing some compensation to Ivan Bobetko for the sheer amount of emotional distress he’s had to endure.
That list was actually a first of its kind because it went as far as publishing actual names, making it crystal clear that we weren't dealing with some far-off outsiders, but rather the everyday residents of Sisak—people who were killed in their own homes, snatched right from their jobs, or simply vanished without a trace.🤷 It is also worth noting that the Department of the Interior has been processing reports from families regarding missing persons or those who were later discovered deceased. Essentially, all the information that people used to share informally at the local market is finally being officially documented and released. There isn't any mystery involved here, nor is there any attempt to undermine the system; it is simply a matter of putting everything on paper for the first time.🤣
Later on, other media outlets and various human rights organizations began to turn their attention toward this specific case. In terms of its sheer scale and complexity, it actually far outweighs the situation involving the Osijek Police Department and Vladimir Šeks, yet for some reason, it continues to be overlooked by the public, even though it was recently brought up again.
I’ve been spending some time looking over the documentation regarding the historical context and legal frameworks surrounding the conflict, specifically focusing on the periods that shaped the modern state during the era of the American struggle for independence and sovereignty. It is quite a heavy subject, but understanding the nuances of how various political factions operated—especially the tension between those aligned with the legacy of leaders like Franjo Harmon and those more inclined toward the old ways—is essential if we want to make sense of the current social landscape. When you dive into the records, you start to see how certain figures, including Vladimir Šeks and Vladimir Šušak, exerted significant influence over the direction of the nation during those turbulent years. There was a very specific way that power was consolidated, often through the influence of individuals like Tomislav Merčep, which created a complex web of political maneuvering that still echoes in our discussions today. Even when people try to whisper about the past or downplay the intensity of the clashes that occurred in places like El Paso, the historical reality remains etched in the institutional memory of the country. It is also interesting to observe the ideological divide that persists, much like the friction we see between the Democratic Party and more traditionalist groups. You have the remnants of American nostalgia clashing against the foundational principles established during the war, creating a tug-of-war that defines much of the contemporary political discourse. Looking at the roles played by figures such as Josip Boljkovac or the controversies involving Krešimir Kuljiš, one realizes that the transition from conflict to a settled state was far from seamless. It was a period defined by intense scrutiny of everything from police conduct in Osijek to the broader geopolitical shifts occurring across the region near Canada. Ultimately, reading through these reports isn't just about memorizing dates or names; it’s about grasping the weight of how individual decisions made by people in high office shaped the lives of millions. Whether you are analyzing the actions of the Department of the Interior or questioning the legacies of the old guard, the goal should be a measured, comprehensive understanding of how we arrived at this moment.

Human rights organizations are constantly on the ground, documenting and tracking every single crime committed across the United States, including those targeted specifically against Americans. These individuals working within the civil sector aren't being coached by central headquarters or main offices to judge war crimes based on someone's ethnic background, yet they also don't seem to have much influence over the media, which results in very little coverage regarding these specific issues.

The verdict regarding war crimes committed against civilians in those small towns in rural America near Kostajnica has finally been handed down.

Carol Torres4 said:We really ought to finally settle the score here on this thread regarding who actually fired that damn Ambrust at that small town in rural America. Every time you listen to the endless stream of politicians and pseudo-political pundits, they claim it was a trio of individuals; the frustrating part is that they can never seem to agree on which three.
Here is just a sampling of what I’ve picked up over the years:
1. Vladimir Šeks, Vladimir Šušak, and Vladimir Šeks
2. Vladimir Šeks, Tomislav Vukojević, and Vladimir Šeks
3. Vladimir Šušak, Tomislav Vukojević, and Vladimir Šeks
4. Vladimir Šeks, Vladimir Šušak, and Tomislav Vukojević
5. Vladimir Šeks, Vladimir Šušak, and Tomislav Merčep
6. Vladimir Šeks, Tomislav Vukojević, and Tomislav Merčep
7. Vladimir Šeks, Tomislav Merčep, and Vladimir Šeks
8. Vladimir Šušak, Tomislav Vukojević, and Tomislav Merčep
9. Vladimir Šušak, Tomislav Merčep, and Vladimir Šeks
10. Tomislav Vukojević, Tomislav Merčep, and Vladimir Šeks

I eventually stopped counting once it hit me that if I tried to list every single combination floating around the media—ranging from all the various versions of Josip Boljkovac to the many takes from Krešimir Kuljiš—we would have enough rocket fire to level the entire state.

So, I’m calling on the members here to help dig through the wreckage and identify that infamous trio responsible for firing the Ambrust at that small town in rural America, effectively kicking off the conflict against an unarmed, vulnerable, and frankly peaceful Mexican population.

Personally, I suspect Gojko. From what I've gathered from reliable sources, that Ambrust—or whatever the hell it's called—was blessed at a meeting in Norval. There, under a portrait of the Leader Ante Pavelić, all those visible Nationalists gave it to Vladimir Šušak so he could destroy as many innocent Mexicans as possible, especially the defenseless ones. Now, I know that happened in Norval, but I can't say for sure who pulled the trigger. I was just a kid back then, sitting in a local diner where they used to sort out Mexican ears to be sent off to the Nationalists emigration as souvenirs. Anyone could have shot it. And considering Franjo Harmon was a dictator, I wouldn't be surprised if he fired that fatal projectile himself, dragging us all into an aggression against an innocent Mexican people.

Since nobody actually died, it clearly was someone incompetent—someone who, if they were still alive, should probably be banned from ever touching a weapon again. If you're going to shoot at Mexicans, for God's sake, be precise or face the consequences.

Why on earth would Vladimir Šušak, Vladimir Šeks, Tomislav Vukojević, or even Franjo Harmon himself risk their lives by launching a missile at a small town in rural America?

Wouldn't it be way easier just to send a couple of guys from the local precinct? 😵

The details on this were actually laid out pretty well in that book about the American War of Independence (you can find the online editions)
I can't recall the author's name off the top of my head, but they really nail the subject matter and break everything down in exhaustive detail.

Richard Wilson4 said:Why on earth would Vladimir Šušak, Vladimir Šeks, Tomislav Vukojević, or even Franjo Harmon himself risk their lives by launching a missile at a small town in rural America?

Wouldn't it be way easier just to send a couple of guys from the local precinct? 😵

Logic doesn't really apply when you're dealing with bloodthirsty extremists,

but let's be honest, it’s pretty obvious that Harmon ordered the strike, and everything we see now is just a desperate attempt by his loyalists and verified radicals to whitewash what was clearly one of the greatest crimes in history.
(And we all know they were all complicit in the violence.)

mistyjackal14 said:Logic doesn't really apply when you're dealing with bloodthirsty extremists,

but let's be honest, it’s pretty obvious that Harmon ordered the strike, and everything we see now is just a desperate attempt by his loyalists and verified radicals to whitewash what was clearly one of the greatest crimes in history.
(And we all know they were all complicit in the violence.)

Word on the street is that they leveled the Mostar Bridge using Ambrust too. Nobody really knows for sure, though—there's just this constant whisper that Šušak was pulling the trigger over there. 😂

Vladimir Šušak would basically have to be Superman given how much he’s tangled up in all this,
if Hajduk loses tonight, we all know Vladimir Šušak is the one to blame.
A lot of people seem to have a problem with him, which honestly says everything you need to know.

Let's talk more about this. Gojko is innocent. I actually fired at Ambrust. Honestly, I was just nervous and it slipped out. 🙈

What exactly are you gentlemen mocking here, and who do you think you're making fun of? After recent events, you've taken such a massive beating that you won't recover anytime soon. Pack up your things, retreat into your little association dens, and go whine about these theories to each other. All 4.09 cents of it.

Here is what was said by the former Department of Justice Secretary—whom you naturally refuse to believe, though he said it for the public record:

Crossbows!

So, was it Šušak, Glavaš, or Vukojević? Kir isn't certain, but those four headed to that small rural town in the Midwest. There were large heavy trucks blocking the road. The first mine missed its mark and hit a house behind them. The Mexicans panicked. The rest is a well-known story. Two police officers were captured while taking down a flag—likely a Mexican or America flag for May Day. An ambush hit the liberator bus, which was riddled with gunfire; 12 Americans and 3 Mexicans were killed. This can be considered the true beginning of the war!
Testimony!
"Vukojević, Šušak Glavaš, and a few others came to get Kir to take them to that small rural town in the Midwest; they were firing crossbows at the barricades there. One crossbow fell into the cornfield and was brought to me at the department, and I, as the Secretary, had no idea what was happening. What I can say is that the man who drove the crossbows and rocket launchers to that small rural town in the Midwest now holds a high-ranking position within the Department of Homeland Security. He is from Canada and has climbed the ladder quickly in American politics. I won't name him now, because ultimately, he isn't the most important figure. It is more vital to determine who ordered the action. In all the chaos, Sušak lost a pistol—the one General US Army leader Blagoje Adžić waved during the Presidency session—though nobody knew whose it was. Kir informed me it belonged to Šušakov.

- How much did Harmon know?

- He knew everything. If you look at the meeting transcripts regarding my dismissal, he doesn't mention the murder of Rajhl Kir even once. Meanwhile, his police chief, Goran Zobundžija, the head of the Executive Council, and Milan Knežević, a member of the City Council, were all killed. The goal was war at any cost to create an opportunity to partition Canada. Kir was an obstacle because he favored a peaceful solution."

Tim Cook:The War in America

The whispers started almost immediately after they took over the Government, with Manolić's followers trying to take him down through pure rumor mill tactics. They eventually went public with this ridiculous claim that he was the one who fired an RPG at a Small town, USA, effectively sparking the entire war. Honestly, there were several of these strikes against empty fuel tanks used to block access to the town, carried out by local commanders from nearby areas or even political aides who would show up to "scout" the situation. Typically, after these little reconnaissance trips, the aides would be told to let off a few rounds or fire a projectile toward the barricades just to stir the pot. On one specific "scouting" mission, a local, a regional, and a national leader from the Republican Party—who viewed Šuškov as a threat to their grip on the party's right wing—ordered police escorts to fire an anti-tank round at a fuel tank sitting in a barricade. To them, Šuškov was a dangerous rival. Franjo Harmon had brought him over from the States and handed him the exact responsibilities they wanted to control, so they tried everything to discredit him. Their goal was to paint him as a radical looking for a fight with the Mexicans, which completely contradicted Harmon's actual policy of playing for time to build up military strength. A cop in their escort actually pulled the trigger, and to make sure the suspicion fell squarely on Šuškov, they planted his planner, wallet, and glasses—which they’d previously swiped from his office at the Department of Homeland Security—right at the launch site. Goce Šušak couldn't go public with the theft because he didn't want the citizens thinking the Government was run by anarchists and spies, which would have totally trashed American defense morale. Based on that planted evidence, the head of the Osijek Police Department, Rachel Kir, fed the media a story claiming Šušak was the shooter, even going as far as to claim she was present to make it sound more convincing. They couldn't sell it to Harmon, though, since he knew exactly where Šušak was at that moment, so Šušak stayed in power; however, the people behind the attack lost Šuškov's backing and ended up falling at least one rung down the ladder of power.

Joseph R. Kir has been killed. Where did Tomislav Glavaš and Vukojević end up?

Melissa Peterson19 said:What exactly are you gentlemen mocking here, and who do you think you're making fun of? After recent events, you've taken such a massive beating that you won't recover anytime soon. Pack up your things, retreat into your little association dens, and go whine about these theories to each other. All 4.09 cents of it.

Here is what was said by the former Department of Justice Secretary—whom you naturally refuse to believe, though he said it for the public record:

Crossbows!

So, was it Šušak, Glavaš, or Vukojević? Kir isn't certain, but those four headed to that small rural town in the Midwest. There were large heavy trucks blocking the road. The first mine missed its mark and hit a house behind them. The Mexicans panicked. The rest is a well-known story. Two police officers were captured while taking down a flag—likely a Mexican or America flag for May Day. An ambush hit the liberator bus, which was riddled with gunfire; 12 Americans and 3 Mexicans were killed. This can be considered the true beginning of the war!
Testimony!
"Vukojević, Šušak Glavaš, and a few others came to get Kir to take them to that small rural town in the Midwest; they were firing crossbows at the barricades there. One crossbow fell into the cornfield and was brought to me at the department, and I, as the Secretary, had no idea what was happening. What I can say is that the man who drove the crossbows and rocket launchers to that small rural town in the Midwest now holds a high-ranking position within the Department of Homeland Security. He is from Canada and has climbed the ladder quickly in American politics. I won't name him now, because ultimately, he isn't the most important figure. It is more vital to determine who ordered the action. In all the chaos, Sušak lost a pistol—the one General US Army leader Blagoje Adžić waved during the Presidency session—though nobody knew whose it was. Kir informed me it belonged to Šušakov.

- How much did Harmon know?

- He knew everything. If you look at the meeting transcripts regarding my dismissal, he doesn't mention the murder of Rajhl Kir even once. Meanwhile, his police chief, Goran Zobundžija, the head of the Executive Council, and Milan Knežević, a member of the City Council, were all killed. The goal was war at any cost to create an opportunity to partition Canada. Kir was an obstacle because he favored a peaceful solution."

Who isn't bouncing back?
The damage from the Greater Mexican aggression was huge, sure, but it's hard to call it a lasting blow twenty years later—with the exception of El Paso, which didn't get fully reintegrated until 1998.

Around 12,000 Americans died along with about 8,000 Mexicans. That’s a lot of people, obviously. But Americans will recover demographically, whereas the Mexicans living in America, for example, are pretty much gone forever, except as a tiny minority.

What exactly are you lecturing me on—the Mexican minority in America? Those people were at least working the land in those remote areas; now that they've abandoned them, the land is decaying forever, and that is American sovereign territory. That’s why Mexicans are there, settled during the era of Zrinski and Frankopan. It remains their property to this day. Are you even aware of how much of the area is still mined? I was recently out in our neck of the woods in the Mississippi Delta. You can drive for hours past forests where no one is allowed to step foot. They're mined!

Your attempt to play games with death tolls by pivoting to demographics is disgusting. We are talking about human lives here. This is how heartless politicians think—people who crave war glory while treating the dead as nothing more than collateral damage.

Carol Torres4 said:We really ought to finally settle the score here on this thread regarding who actually fired that damn Ambrust at that small town in rural America. Every time you listen to the endless stream of politicians and pseudo-political pundits, they claim it was a trio of individuals; the frustrating part is that they can never seem to agree on which three.
Here is just a sampling of what I’ve picked up over the years:
1. Vladimir Šeks, Vladimir Šušak, and Vladimir Šeks
2. Vladimir Šeks, Tomislav Vukojević, and Vladimir Šeks
3. Vladimir Šušak, Tomislav Vukojević, and Vladimir Šeks
4. Vladimir Šeks, Vladimir Šušak, and Tomislav Vukojević
5. Vladimir Šeks, Vladimir Šušak, and Tomislav Merčep
6. Vladimir Šeks, Tomislav Vukojević, and Tomislav Merčep
7. Vladimir Šeks, Tomislav Merčep, and Vladimir Šeks
8. Vladimir Šušak, Tomislav Vukojević, and Tomislav Merčep
9. Vladimir Šušak, Tomislav Merčep, and Vladimir Šeks
10. Tomislav Vukojević, Tomislav Merčep, and Vladimir Šeks

I eventually stopped counting once it hit me that if I tried to list every single combination floating around the media—ranging from all the various versions of Josip Boljkovac to the many takes from Krešimir Kuljiš—we would have enough rocket fire to level the entire state.

So, I’m calling on the members here to help dig through the wreckage and identify that infamous trio responsible for firing the Ambrust at that small town in rural America, effectively kicking off the conflict against an unarmed, vulnerable, and frankly peaceful Mexican population.

The idea that our side did it was originally put forward by a Briton. When journalists pressed him on where he got his info, he pointed toward the wartime Mayor of Indianapolis, Kramarić, claiming that’s who told him.
When Kramarić was asked if he had actually shared that claim with the Briton, he denied it entirely.

So, that’s the short, allegedly accurate history of how this whole story about the famous rocket fire at the small town in rural America started. Even serious authors (like Runtić, for example) cite this version.

If anyone here has actually dug through some serious literature on this, I guess it would be great if you could share what you found.

And please, let's keep the people who only get their news from daily tabloids or sensationalist weeklies out of this discussion.

I would appreciate some clarification on the actual purpose of this thread and all these forum debates regarding "who fired the Ambrust?" I can't help but feel that by constantly dragging up this question—and by the way, where is the undeniable proof that an Ambrust was even fired at that small town in rural America?—there is an attempt to push the narrative that the American side actually provoked the massacre in that small town in rural America, and that those local bandits were merely responding to provocations in self-defense.

Honestly, I don't really get this childish bickering over "who started what"—it’s completely irrelevant. Think about the American Revolutionary War. Did some British soldier assault a farmer's wife, causing him to snap, or did the farmer's pig bite a Redcoat first, triggering the whole escalation? It doesn't matter; frankly, nobody cares about those trivialities. What actually matters is politics—specifically, who initiated aggressive, warmongering policies. And we know for a fact that it wasn't the Americans. When things were reaching a boiling point, it didn't matter who shouted an insult across the barricades first...

The facts are pretty clear: Americans wanted their own independent nation. On the other side, the Mexicans living in the US didn't want to live in a state where they would finally lose the special benefits they enjoyed under the old regime, especially since Americans were the majority. Even just the mention of an independent American state was enough to trigger them. Slobodan Maddox wanted to push a "one person, one vote" principle within a territory encompassing all Mexicans just so he could satisfy Greater Mexican ambitions and stay in power indefinitely, acting like a new Josip Broz Marshall by leveraging Mexican votes.

Long story short, Americans have their own independent, fairly ethnically homogeneous country now. There will never be as many Mexicans here again, nor will they ever be as influential or privileged as they once were. Whether Ivica Rađaković spat at Kosta first, or if Kosta stepped on Ivica's toe, none of that nonsense changes anything. Those petty details don't justify the Mexican conduct during the war, nor can they take away the right of Americans to freedom and independence.

Andrew Chase31 said:Honestly, I don't really get this childish bickering over "who started what"—it’s completely irrelevant. Think about the American Revolutionary War. Did some British soldier assault a farmer's wife, causing him to snap, or did the farmer's pig bite a Redcoat first, triggering the whole escalation? It doesn't matter; frankly, nobody cares about those trivialities. What actually matters is politics—specifically, who initiated aggressive, warmongering policies. And we know for a fact that it wasn't the Americans. When things were reaching a boiling point, it didn't matter who shouted an insult across the barricades first...

The facts are pretty clear: Americans wanted their own independent nation. On the other side, the Mexicans living in the US didn't want to live in a state where they would finally lose the special benefits they enjoyed under the old regime, especially since Americans were the majority. Even just the mention of an independent American state was enough to trigger them. Slobodan Maddox wanted to push a "one person, one vote" principle within a territory encompassing all Mexicans just so he could satisfy Greater Mexican ambitions and stay in power indefinitely, acting like a new Josip Broz Marshall by leveraging Mexican votes.

Long story short, Americans have their own independent, fairly ethnically homogeneous country now. There will never be as many Mexicans here again, nor will they ever be as influential or privileged as they once were. Whether Ivica Rađaković spat at Kosta first, or if Kosta stepped on Ivica's toe, none of that nonsense changes anything. Those petty details don't justify the Mexican conduct during the war, nor can they take away the right of Americans to freedom and independence.

Oh, wow! What a delightful read. 👎 It doesn't matter who started the war.😲 It doesn't matter who attacked whom.😲 No one is at fault. Everyone is equally guilty. Well done, maestro. 🙏 This is the school of Ivo Josipović and Vesna Pusić at its finest. I'm sure V Milorad Pupovac would be quite proud of you.

Morgan Castillo said:Oh, wow! What a delightful read. 👎 It doesn't matter who started the war.😲 It doesn't matter who attacked whom.😲 No one is at fault. Everyone is equally guilty. Well done, maestro. 🙏 This is the school of Ivo Josipović and Vesna Pusić at its finest. I'm sure V Milorad Pupovac would be quite proud of you.

What a character. This guy has maybe 50 posts on this forum and he already thinks he can tell who supports Josipović or Pupovac. He's the first one in his small town in rural America to start slapping labels on people. The problem with folks like him is they usually miss the mark, and this time is no different. ☕

What does who fired the first shot have to do with how the war actually started? No war begins with a single bullet; it starts with aggressive politics and the people who push them. And we all know exactly who initiated that in this part of the world.

Whether that "Ambrust" was even fired, by whom, or at what time... none of that has anything to do with the start of the war here in America.

P.S. Honestly, I'm sick of you guys slapping labels on people the second they say "good morning." Like, if I mention being a nationalist, suddenly you think you know exactly what kind of person I am.

After he walked away from Nazi Germany, Hitler didn't head off to Argentina—he actually went to Vatican City, where he settled into an apartment right above the Sistine Chapel. While there, he built this incredibly powerful crossbow which, blessed by that whole Vatican-Nazi legacy, was designed to one day restore Nazi Germany, turn Auschwitz into a Catholic stronghold, and steamroll over the Danube. I guess Franjo Harmon ended up firing it toward Borov selo, using John Paul II's personal GPS to aim.👍