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PDF: Social Science in Chaos

Started by Sarah Morgan2 · · 👁 11 views · 123 replies

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Participants Sarah Morgan2bluerider2Jerry Roberts15hollowtrucker77Paul Price34ironmarlin1Thomas Stewart4vividcyclist11Tyler Grant76Jerry GarciaBradley Lopez12Sarah Garcia46redmarlin3mistybisonCarol Nguyen63Michelle Sanders72Kenneth Peterson5northerntigerAndrew Sanchez572steelskipper5Henry Gray14Jose Cruz9Sean Cruz
Sarah Morgan2 Sarah Morgan2 MemberOP
38 messages
joined Jan 2009
#61 ·
Michelle Sanders72 said:Yeah, I think that’s exactly where the issue lies.

See, the job of a moderator in the Social Science section shouldn't really be about validating linguistics as some heavy-duty academic discipline; it should mostly be about stepping in when people start being insulting or acting out in ways that just aren't okay.
A moderator in Social Science shouldn't be busy pushing aside people just because they insist that a fact—which might be scientifically wrong according to the textbooks—is actually true based on their own personal experience or whatever.

At the end of the day, a forum is a place where anyone should be able to say whatever they want about a topic, provided they aren't disrespecting their interlocutors or crossing those lines of what's socially acceptable. That’s when a moderator should step in, not when someone crosses a line regarding scientific accuracy or how well-grounded an argument is in a specific field.

Anyway, I won't ramble too much:

So, in that same vein, I guess the question is: why would a future moderator for Social Science even need to be a top-tier expert in every single subject within that field?

Shouldn't the most important thing, really, be how they treat others and how decent they are in a discussion, rather than just raw expertise? Like, having a sense of social etiquette and being able to spot when someone is stepping outside those bounds.
And obviously, they should probably at least follow the topic and actually care about it.

Exactly! 👍🙏🙏
Kenneth Peterson5 Kenneth Peterson5 Active Member
124 messages
joined Nov 2007
#62 ·
Sarah Morgan2 said:Since I’m the one who kicked this thread off, I’ll take the liberty of suggesting we get back to the actual problem this topic was created for. It feels like the core issue is getting watered down here. What bluerider2 is writing is a story we've heard plenty of times before regarding Social Science, and frankly, it isn't getting us anywhere. We are searching for a consensus—something bluerider2 eventually admitted and admin Jerry Garcia promised—so let's focus on specific sub-moderator candidates. Otherwise, we’re just stuck in empty lamentation because it seems bluerider2 either doesn't want to or simply can't grasp the essence of why we're even talking about this.

So, my stance is that we need:
1) Another linguist, which is why I suggested Sarah Garcia46.
2) I agree it would be wise to bring in someone whose specialty isn't linguistics, so I’m proposing the forum member Andrew Sanchez572. By the way, the absolute perfect solution would be the brilliant scholar LNP20, but from what I know, he can barely manage to moderate Philosophy, so unfortunately, that wouldn't help much anyway.😢

The other suggestions were: Colbert as a linguist and Lila_sun as an expert in other Social Science disciplines.

I basically spend half my time poking at different people on these forums just to see how they’ll twitch—it’s like there’s constant thunder rolling around in my head, you know? I use their reactions as a sort of litmus test to decide if I even want to bother talking to them anymore. I did the exact same thing to Andrew Sanchez572 once, back when we were constantly clashing over certain topics. Well, she hit me with a response so incredibly sharp and spot-on that it actually managed to make me feel embarrassed.
Honestly, appointing someone to moderate any PDF—whatever that means—is just gonna make the whole Forum run better. Period.

LNP20 is an absolute legend of a mod—seriously, top-tier stuff—and if he ever finds a spare second in his life to breathe, it would be killer if he could swing by and keep an eye on the Social Science section once in a while.

Hey there!
Carol Nguyen63 Carol Nguyen63 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Feb 2008
#63 ·
The candidate already has quite a bit under their belt, so I’m really hoping we see some concrete steps taken soon; hopefully, we can finally move past this whole back-and-forth in the complaints section.
Sarah Morgan2 Sarah Morgan2 MemberOP
38 messages
joined Jan 2009
#64 ·
Kenneth Peterson5 said:I basically spend half my time poking at different people on these forums just to see how they’ll twitch—it’s like there’s constant thunder rolling around in my head, you know? I use their reactions as a sort of litmus test to decide if I even want to bother talking to them anymore. I did the exact same thing to Andrew Sanchez572 once, back when we were constantly clashing over certain topics. Well, she hit me with a response so incredibly sharp and spot-on that it actually managed to make me feel embarrassed.
Honestly, appointing someone to moderate any PDF—whatever that means—is just gonna make the whole Forum run better. Period.

LNP20 is an absolute legend of a mod—seriously, top-tier stuff—and if he ever finds a spare second in his life to breathe, it would be killer if he could swing by and keep an eye on the Social Science section once in a while.

Hey there!

Exactly 👍that.
northerntiger northerntiger Member
39 messages
joined Jan 2010
#65 ·
The PDF Social Science section is one of those rare little havens on this forum where actual experts—mostly linguists—still try to give serious answers to questions. It’s also one of the few spots that hasn't turned into a total playground for everyone and their mother.

Look, I don't care about swearing. You can curse all you want; what actually gets to me is stupidity, shallowness, and this idea that literally anyone can just chime in on any topic.

They can't. And honestly, they shouldn't.

This whole tabloid-style craze that hit the forum has become pretty terrible. Not every PDF needs to be left wide open to a free-for-all, especially when it has "science" right there in the title.

If we're talking Social Science, then the moderation should be handled by people in those fields who actually know their stuff. We have plenty of great contributors here who bring so much to the table because they're well-educated and actually think before they type. It's a shame that even here, we've seen this kind of "encroachment," where the wild crowds end up chasing away the professionals.
Michelle Sanders72 Michelle Sanders72 Member
12 messages
joined Apr 2008
#66 ·
northerntiger said:The PDF Social Science section is one of those rare little havens on this forum where actual experts—mostly linguists—still try to give serious answers to questions. It’s also one of the few spots that hasn't turned into a total playground for everyone and their mother.

Look, I don't care about swearing. You can curse all you want; what actually gets to me is stupidity, shallowness, and this idea that literally anyone can just chime in on any topic.

They can't. And honestly, they shouldn't.

This whole tabloid-style craze that hit the forum has become pretty terrible. Not every PDF needs to be left wide open to a free-for-all, especially when it has "science" right there in the title.

If we're talking Social Science, then the moderation should be handled by people in those fields who actually know their stuff. We have plenty of great contributors here who bring so much to the table because they're well-educated and actually think before they type. It's a shame that even here, we've seen this kind of "encroachment," where the wild crowds end up chasing away the professionals.

How exactly do you think sensationalism has affected the forum?

Actually, I think it's the opposite—it was the restrictions that hit the forum, and unfortunately, they were necessary. Just like how any kind of restriction on freedom throughout history has been necessary. But hey, whatever.

Look, it's obvious this forum is essentially private property. There's no denying it. And clearly, the owner has every right to enforce justice on his own land, however he sees fit. Of course, it's all aimed at boosting traffic and selling more ad space.

But, you missed the underlying logic and the philosophy that usually governs the internet. That core idea is that everyone has the right to say whatever they want (as long as it isn't hate speech).
Now, what I put in parentheses is definitely open to debate. Back in the day on Usenet groups, things were handled by an abuse department that would— troll—whoever started a flame war—completely cut off their internet access.
But there was never any talk about having specific credentials as a requirement to join a discussion. People without competence eventually get weeded out through natural selection, provided they aren't being obnoxious or provocative.

Places like that existed then, and they still exist now, but they're closed off; you can only get in if someone invites you. And honestly, I don't see anything wrong with that. Professionals discussing things among themselves on a private forum or wherever.
But this forum isn't that kind of place.

So, the process actually moved in the exact opposite direction of what you're imagining. The online community wasn't restrictive and exclusive from the start; it was quite the opposite. The need for more serious moderation only popped up after Web 2.0 arrived—you know, with the rise of forums, blogs, and all those things that gave the average, untrained user easy access to a keyboard. Once those technologies showed up, the user base shifted, and suddenly moderation became way more vital than it used to be. But in the beginning, it just wasn't like that.
bluerider2 bluerider2 Member
16 messages
joined Feb 2007
#67 ·
It feels like we're starting to lose our focus here, so if you'll allow me, I'd love to quickly summarize how things are currently shaping up. Because we've moved toward assuming this is all part of some perfectly synchronized group effort, those original complaints have been set aside in favor of putting together a list of candidates for the sub-moderator position. So far, the names on the list include:
  • Sarah Garcia46
  • Lila_sun
  • Colbert
  • Andrew Sanchez572
  • LNP20


If I’ve accidentally overlooked anyone, please do feel free to jump in and let me know.
Sarah Morgan2 Sarah Morgan2 MemberOP
38 messages
joined Jan 2009
#68 ·
northerntiger said:The PDF Social Science section is one of those rare little havens on this forum where actual experts—mostly linguists—still try to give serious answers to questions. It’s also one of the few spots that hasn't turned into a total playground for everyone and their mother.

Look, I don't care about swearing. You can curse all you want; what actually gets to me is stupidity, shallowness, and this idea that literally anyone can just chime in on any topic.

They can't. And honestly, they shouldn't.

This whole tabloid-style craze that hit the forum has become pretty terrible. Not every PDF needs to be left wide open to a free-for-all, especially when it has "science" right there in the title.

If we're talking Social Science, then the moderation should be handled by people in those fields who actually know their stuff. We have plenty of great contributors here who bring so much to the table because they're well-educated and actually think before they type. It's a shame that even here, we've seen this kind of "encroachment," where the wild crowds end up chasing away the professionals.

Completely wrong. In the law, natural science, economics, health, literature, and plenty of other subforums, we have experts answering questions; in fact, most of them moderate too.
northerntiger said:The PDF Social Science section is one of those rare little havens on this forum where actual experts—mostly linguists—still try to give serious answers to questions. It’s also one of the few spots that hasn't turned into a total playground for everyone and their mother.

Look, I don't care about swearing. You can curse all you want; what actually gets to me is stupidity, shallowness, and this idea that literally anyone can just chime in on any topic.

They can't. And honestly, they shouldn't.

This whole tabloid-style craze that hit the forum has become pretty terrible. Not every PDF needs to be left wide open to a free-for-all, especially when it has "science" right there in the title.

If we're talking Social Science, then the moderation should be handled by people in those fields who actually know their stuff. We have plenty of great contributors here who bring so much to the table because they're well-educated and actually think before they type. It's a shame that even here, we've seen this kind of "encroachment," where the wild crowds end up chasing away the professionals.

This isn't some specialized academic journal; it’s a general interest forum, meant for whoever wants to join in. One fundamental assumption of a place like this is that people at least follow basic etiquette. Honestly, I don't get how someone could be offended by someone else's stupidity 🙄 but fine, that's off topic anyway.
northerntiger said:The PDF Social Science section is one of those rare little havens on this forum where actual experts—mostly linguists—still try to give serious answers to questions. It’s also one of the few spots that hasn't turned into a total playground for everyone and their mother.

Look, I don't care about swearing. You can curse all you want; what actually gets to me is stupidity, shallowness, and this idea that literally anyone can just chime in on any topic.

They can't. And honestly, they shouldn't.

This whole tabloid-style craze that hit the forum has become pretty terrible. Not every PDF needs to be left wide open to a free-for-all, especially when it has "science" right there in the title.

If we're talking Social Science, then the moderation should be handled by people in those fields who actually know their stuff. We have plenty of great contributors here who bring so much to the table because they're well-educated and actually think before they type. It's a shame that even here, we've seen this kind of "encroachment," where the wild crowds end up chasing away the professionals.

I already gave you my answer on that.
northerntiger said:The PDF Social Science section is one of those rare little havens on this forum where actual experts—mostly linguists—still try to give serious answers to questions. It’s also one of the few spots that hasn't turned into a total playground for everyone and their mother.

Look, I don't care about swearing. You can curse all you want; what actually gets to me is stupidity, shallowness, and this idea that literally anyone can just chime in on any topic.

They can't. And honestly, they shouldn't.

This whole tabloid-style craze that hit the forum has become pretty terrible. Not every PDF needs to be left wide open to a free-for-all, especially when it has "science" right there in the title.

If we're talking Social Science, then the moderation should be handled by people in those fields who actually know their stuff. We have plenty of great contributors here who bring so much to the table because they're well-educated and actually think before they type. It's a shame that even here, we've seen this kind of "encroachment," where the wild crowds end up chasing away the professionals.

I agree there; a moderator should at least have a basic grasp of the subject they are overseeing. However, no matter how many credentials someone has, they aren't exempt from following the basic rules of the forum.
Sarah Morgan2 Sarah Morgan2 MemberOP
38 messages
joined Jan 2009
#69 ·
bluerider2 said:It feels like we're starting to lose our focus here, so if you'll allow me, I'd love to quickly summarize how things are currently shaping up. Because we've moved toward assuming this is all part of some perfectly synchronized group effort, those original complaints have been set aside in favor of putting together a list of candidates for the sub-moderator position. So far, the names on the list include:
  • Sarah Garcia46
  • Lila_sun
  • Colbert
  • Andrew Sanchez572
  • LNP20


If I’ve accidentally overlooked anyone, please do feel free to jump in and let me know.

What are you even talking about? The whole point of this thread is to pick sub-moderators—that was the original and only intention, based on the consensus that your moderation has been lacking. btw, I see you're still clinging to your conspiracy theories. If you're going to insist on that so hard, why don't you actually present us with a breakdown of who among the users and the disgruntled lot are pointing out flaws in the Social Science sub-forum, and whose "clone" they supposedly are? Even though it's off-topic, I'm genuinely curious why you're so obsessed with it that it's clearly distracting you from this actual discussion.😂
Sarah Morgan2 Sarah Morgan2 MemberOP
38 messages
joined Jan 2009
#70 ·
Look, here’s the list of all 18 posters. Now why don't you tell us which one is whose clone? You keep insisting on this hypothesis, repeating it from post to post, which is just a sneaky way to insult everyone in this discussion and belittle the entire topic itself:

Sarah Morgan2
bluerider2
Jerry Roberts15
hollowtrucker77
Paul Price34
ironmarlin1
Thomas Stewart4
*roo*
Tyler Grant76
Jerry Garcia
Bradley Lopez12
Sarah Garcia46
redmarlin3
mistybison
Carol Nguyen63
Michelle Sanders72
Kenneth Peterson5
northerntiger
Jerry Roberts15 Jerry Roberts15 Member
18 messages
joined Jan 2009
#71 ·
bluerider2 said:It feels like we're starting to lose our focus here, so if you'll allow me, I'd love to quickly summarize how things are currently shaping up. Because we've moved toward assuming this is all part of some perfectly synchronized group effort, those original complaints have been set aside in favor of putting together a list of candidates for the sub-moderator position. So far, the names on the list include:
  • Sarah Garcia46
  • Lila_sun
  • Colbert
  • Andrew Sanchez572
  • LNP20


If I’ve accidentally overlooked anyone, please do feel free to jump in and let me know.

I’d honestly be fine with being a clone of Breda ask if I had the choice. 😍
Acting Deputy VP of the Coordinated Clone-Elephant Action


oh, get real, already 😠
just read what people are actually saying—be civil, clear, and make sense for once.
It really isn't that hard to grasp if you just put in a tiny bit of effort.
Seriously, underestimating such decent, cultured people is just...
totally beneath your status and intelligence.
Tyler Grant76 Tyler Grant76 Active Member
79 messages
joined May 2009
#72 ·
bluerider2 said:It feels like we're starting to lose our focus here, so if you'll allow me, I'd love to quickly summarize how things are currently shaping up. Because we've moved toward assuming this is all part of some perfectly synchronized group effort, those original complaints have been set aside in favor of putting together a list of candidates for the sub-moderator position. So far, the names on the list include:
  • Sarah Garcia46
  • Lila_sun
  • Colbert
  • Andrew Sanchez572
  • LNP20


If I’ve accidentally overlooked anyone, please do feel free to jump in and let me know.

Oh, please, give me a break. 🙄 🙄 I might actually start believing it's really your fault that certain users on "your" sub-forum can just parrot anyone based on, well, supposed expertise. 😬
Look, I’m just an amateur who wants to improve my English without getting hit with "you should have learned this in elementary school." 🤷 Is it really that hard to realize there are plenty of us like that? We don't have bad intentions, and we aren't asking "stupid" questions just to be annoying. I've been embarrassed more than once by things I didn't know. Okay. I read constantly—it's been a lifelong thing—I have an ear for languages, and I actually liked school 😁 —so I honestly don't get how it's possible to struggle with things labeled as "obvious."
One of your responses suggested this happens because linguists aren't taken seriously. Well, damn, honey, maybe try earning some respect within related fields instead of blaming me when some (disagreeable) Americanist, translator, or journalist teaches me something incorrectly.
If anyone approaches the Language Advisor topic with total openness, they are mostly people outside your field. They aren't here to mess with you; they're here for help. With the attitude they encounter in those "expert" PDFs, all they're going to walk away with are negative prejudices toward both linguists and the language itself.
Sarah Garcia46 Sarah Garcia46 Newcomer
9 messages
joined Feb 2009
#73 ·
Jerry Roberts15 said:Specific complaints?
I honestly think someone who actually tracks this PDF systematically—someone with enough free time to deal with such trivialities—could pull together and document a massive amount of stuff...
As an occasional (and increasingly rare) visitor, the most glaring examples I can point to involve Stitch, who clearly knows his stuff and carries real editorial authority, but always stayed at those untouchable heights and too often resorted to mocking, belittling, or insulting people... you can find piles and piles of posts like that in the Language Advisor from a year or two ago, maybe three...

Dear Abby? A worthy successor... undeniably brilliant, but absolutely zero manners. That level of ego points to just one thing: incurable frustration... No one has the right to just lash out at entire professions, whole institutions, and especially distinguished figures and scientists who have given so much to this country and its culture (I’m thinking of Anić here, despite all his flaws)... If you want to help people with your vast knowledge, fine, great... then show some patience and tolerance toward the ignorance of people who aren't being obnoxious, but are just asking questions politely and civilly... They should be praised for that, because it’s harder to offer knowledge than to mock and insult...
A little tip: take a look at how many decent, cultured people are here—also holding degrees and credentials 🤣—who patiently and unselfishly help out and answer even the most trivial questions from the "plebs"

The moderation... given everything I just said and a whole lot more that I don't have the energy to list: it's bad... and I'm worried that the moderator herself, aside from her obvious favoritism toward certain people, is increasingly showing an intolerance and hypersensitivity to any kind of criticism

Nine months ago on the "Language Advisor," I published this reflection (April 11, 2008):

"This space should be a place where kindness, friendship, and solidarity are nurtured. We have young people coming here who need to see cooperation and goodwill modeled as a way of life. Should we not view the mistakes of the youth with sympathy, seeing them as mere stepping stones on the path to wisdom? Instead, we see the exact opposite—rudeness, discomfort, and arrogance. This creates an environment where people shy away from participating due to tactless interactions and aggressive, irrational ideas."
hollowtrucker77 hollowtrucker77 Regular
681 messages
joined Nov 2007
#74 ·
Just speaking my mind here: this actually starts making sense now.
Jerry Roberts15 Jerry Roberts15 Member
18 messages
joined Jan 2009
#75 ·
Sarah Garcia46 said:Nine months ago on the "Language Advisor," I published this reflection (April 11, 2008):

"This space should be a place where kindness, friendship, and solidarity are nurtured. We have young people coming here who need to see cooperation and goodwill modeled as a way of life. Should we not view the mistakes of the youth with sympathy, seeing them as mere stepping stones on the path to wisdom? Instead, we see the exact opposite—rudeness, discomfort, and arrogance. This creates an environment where people shy away from participating due to tactless interactions and aggressive, irrational ideas."

🙏🙏🙏
Andrew Sanchez572 Andrew Sanchez572 Active Member
204 messages
joined Dec 2010
#76 ·
I truly appreciate the confidence you've placed in me, but I am somewhat at a loss as to how I could possibly moderate a PDF where I haven't even made a single post...🤔

It is my considered opinion that it would be far more effective if the PDFs were moderated by the regular forum members who actually contribute to and follow those specific threads. After all, they are the ones who truly know the local community and their particular writing styles; they can easily spot clones, identify newcomers, and recognize who tends to be "problematic," and so on...
Good luck with the selection process for the moderators!
I really do like this topic...👍
Sarah Morgan2 Sarah Morgan2 MemberOP
38 messages
joined Jan 2009
#77 ·
Sarah Garcia46 said:Nine months ago on the "Language Advisor," I published this reflection (April 11, 2008):

"This space should be a place where kindness, friendship, and solidarity are nurtured. We have young people coming here who need to see cooperation and goodwill modeled as a way of life. Should we not view the mistakes of the youth with sympathy, seeing them as mere stepping stones on the path to wisdom? Instead, we see the exact opposite—rudeness, discomfort, and arrogance. This creates an environment where people shy away from participating due to tactless interactions and aggressive, irrational ideas."

I remember reading that, but that appeal was completely ignored by the moderator, just like most others. 🙄

Given the current circumstances, I think Sarah Garcia46 is the best choice for a sub-moderator/linguist. In fact, she’s been warning us about the critical state of the Social Science sub-forum for quite some time (as her quote above shows). This proves that beyond her undeniable expertise, she possesses the character and the sensitivity required for an urgent resuscitation of Social Science.

That said, I won't stop looking for a high-quality sub-moderator who could also elevate other areas of Social Science. For now, we only have our fellow forum member Lila_sun.
steelskipper5 steelskipper5 Active Member
176 messages
joined Feb 2010
#78 ·
redmarlin3 said:This whole thread caught my eye, so I did a little digging through Social Science, and I’ve concluded that I wouldn't turn to Abyssus for help even if my life depended on it.

I don't want it to seem like I'm just talking nonsense without any backing; if anyone is actually interested, feel free to check out my posts (and the posts of others, like sal mirabilisa, morbidangela, gotterdamerung, etc.) over in the Chemistry-help and Biology-help threads, or in those big top discussions about snakes and other animals. Without being modest, I truly believe that's how you should approach someone who "doesn't know" something, especially in the specific forums meant for that purpose. 🙂

On the other hand, our moderator bluerider2 isn't to blame for this situation. There isn't a penalty for being irritating. 😬 There’s absolutely no basis for sanctioning Abyssus. Honestly, the best solution is just to hit that ignore button if she bothers you. It doesn't bother me, since I don't hang out in those corners 🤷 and if I ever actually need advice from a linguist, I'll just go ask steelskipper5. 🙂

It's pretty obvious to you, isn't it—that if I didn't know the answer myself, I'd be sending you over to ask Abyssus instead? 😁
steelskipper5 steelskipper5 Active Member
176 messages
joined Feb 2010
#79 ·
Honestly, I’d say the biggest issue here is just the fact that those baseless attacks against Abyssus weren't wiped out when they should have been.

Yeah, look—she isn't exactly the most pleasant person to debate. Especially if you start trying to lecture her.
I mean, I'm not exactly a ray of sunshine myself—let's be real—but nobody has ever jumped down my throat quite like this before.

As for bringing in another sub-moderator? Why not? It could actually help things out.
Regarding all the complaints about Abyssus and how she acts—those quotes don't even count as proof against her. The way all these self-proclaimed "experts" are trashing her field is basically how society reacts to the natural science community if someone suddenly started rambling about math or physics. Except, in those cases, those topics usually end up over on Alternative anyway through some kind of emergency procedure.

By the way, I think Abyssus would actually make an excellent proposal for moderator. 😬
I've already seen her in action moderating, and honestly, I don't have any complaints.
Jerry Roberts15 Jerry Roberts15 Member
18 messages
joined Jan 2009
#80 ·
Ugh, this is starting to get seriously exhausting...

steelskipper5, major props for everything you do, but for four whole pages now, about ten of us have been stubbornly hammering away at this single point without any luck whatsoever:
the expertise of certain individuals isn't even being questioned here. We are talking strictly about communication culture, and how people treat the 99% of folks who are just well-meaning people looking to learn something new.

We’re pushing back against intolerance toward different perspectives, baseless irritability, belittling, blatant humiliation, verbal attacks, insults... things that DRIVE people away instead of drawing them in. We're talking about behavior that discourages the very people we should be praising and encouraging—mostly young people hungry for knowledge. They're rare gems that need careful nurturing, not this vulgar, aggressive, "tough guy" attitude that just tramples over them.

I don't know why, but I can't write this post without mentioning Abby:
You even admitted yourself that they aren't exactly the most pleasant conversationalist... well, that's precisely the issue! So, what are they doing here?!? If they want to show off and, yeah, lecture everyone, they should stick to closed, professional forums, not a general public forum open to everyone. If they actually want to help out here, they need to tone it down, calm the hysteria—who knows what triggered it—and try to foster some actual decency.

You said: "Regarding the complaints about Abyssus and her behavior, even those quotes aren't any kind of proof against her."

Really? How does that work, my friend? Based on what criteria or arguments? Who is this girl to be so untouchable? It's like saying: people complain about her (and her clones 🤣) more than anyone else, people provide specific examples and logical points, but that doesn't count as proof against her, which basically means: people, you're simply wrong.

Is this really the level this discussion has reached?

Sad.👎

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