Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

Timothy Nelson5 said:Look, just stop feeding into that mindless propaganda you find on those racist forums. It’s honestly exhausting.

So, all of you supporters—the ones who worship at the altar of Putin and his whole neo-fascist ideology, those who basically make excuses for Russia’s fascist aggression against Ukraine—it looks like you've finally hit the "bargaining" stage of grief. I guess that's just how it goes..

You’ve already moved past the denial stage, I suppose. Now it's just one shock after another regarding the Russian Army's recent military blunders. It honestly felt like everyone was just waiting for that inevitable moment when the Russian forces would start retreating in a panic ahead of the decisive Ukrainian offensive. Maybe we all saw it coming, or maybe we were just too stunned to admit it. I don't know.

Now that you can't even convince yourselves anymore that the Russian military is some unstoppable force—all those claims about the Armata, the Su-57, or those supposed "unstoppable" Kinzhals... it’s all just nonsense, really—things have shifted. I mean, after what happened in Bucha and Izium, nobody can honestly look the other way regarding the criminal nature of this Russian aggression. It’s impossible to deny. And so, naturally, the excuses and the bullshit have started flowing in earnest.
- But honestly, everyone’s really just the same in the end. I mean, you look at the Ukrainians and see criminals too, targeting civilians, slaughtering children... it just goes around in circles, I guess. Maybe it's all just one big cycle of the same old violence. They’re forcing minorities into mobilization, the leadership there is straight-up Nazi, and Zelenskyy is basically auctioning off Ukraine piece by piece. It feels like Russia is just fighting a war against NATO mercenaries at this point... in Ukraine. I don't know. Maybe it's all just a setup.

That’s just what they call bargaining, I suppose. That's all it really is. It’s really just that stage of recovery where you have to face the loss—specifically, losing those sickly little illusions about Mother Russia. You know, that idea that she's this benevolent, all-encompassing force, somehow too kind for her own good, practically suffocating under the weight of her own desire to spread goodness to everyone else... I guess it's more like a delusion than anything else. Maybe. But we're getting there, I suppose.

Appeasing criminal, aggressive regimes has never actually brought peace in all of human history. I mean, looking back at how things usually go, it just seems like a losing game. Maybe we like to tell ourselves it works, but I guess history says otherwise. It’s always just a temporary pause before things get even worse.
Never. Not in a million years.

This is a pretty ugly attack and a complete deflection of the argument. Every single post starts with the claim that Russia is the aggressor and that they don't deserve an inch of Ukrainian land, followed by more of this nonsense. I've been following the situation in Ukraine intensely for over ten years. It's tough living with an aggressor in your backyard, but you manage. You wait for better times to make a move. Even the old Republic of Ragusa survived under much worse conditions. Since the Maidan, we've needed more wisdom than anything else. None of that changes the fact that the aggressor is guilty. There's no point in talking at this level. I'm out. Thanks.

Crimea, Luhansk Oblast, and Donetsk—all under temporary UN administration until things actually settle down. We’d need a massive census to track everyone who fled or was kicked out of those occupied zones and get them back on the voter rolls. Then, after at least a year of campaigning, we run a referendum on the status. Whether it's Ukraine, independence, or Russia. Toss in some amnesty deals and stuff like that once an agreement is reached.

coastalmarlin64 said:Naval said they should just pack their prisons full, but hey, go ahead and protest—see if they don't just toss you straight onto the front lines once you're done shouting.

And what exactly does the military gain by sending a soldier like that to the front? Absolutely nothing.

They either end up as cannon fodder or they surrender voluntarily. There isn't a third option.☕

hiddeneagle98 said:Macron would probably hand Putin a slice of Ukraine if he could; the Germans were hoping they could somehow charm Putin, so they sent tanks, tried to block Spain from sending Leopards, and so on... all while sending practically nothing significant over two years. Between Nord Stream 2 and Canada, that’s pretty much the whole EU story right there.

I don't know anything about "euroskeptical media"—I'm not a skeptic myself, and I have no idea which outlets you're talking about. Most of that kind of trash you can just read on some tabloid site.

Look, I'm not saying nobody in the EU sent aid, or even a lot of aid, but in the beginning, things were a mess coming from all different directions. Nowadays, some of those stances have shifted a bit, both within the EU and outside of it. I'm not saying this as a skeptic, but as a citizen who is honestly embarrassed by that specific behavior.

The EU definitely has its issues, but I'm not looking for an exit; I just want those problems fixed so we can actually make the union better.

If Macron was actually handing over parts of Ukraine, how do you explain that Macron's France was the single biggest contributor in terms of cash and training for the Ukrainian military between 2014 (after the Crimea annexation) and the start of the full-scale war? Without that training and those resources, the Ukrainian military would have folded in three days. Also, how do you explain why Ukraine is so desperate to join this same EU, when its leading members are basically looking to let Russia take 20% of Ukrainian territory?

hiddeneagle98 said:Macron would probably hand Putin a slice of Ukraine if he could; the Germans were hoping they could somehow charm Putin, so they sent tanks, tried to block Spain from sending Leopards, and so on... all while sending practically nothing significant over two years. Between Nord Stream 2 and Canada, that’s pretty much the whole EU story right there.

I don't know anything about "euroskeptical media"—I'm not a skeptic myself, and I have no idea which outlets you're talking about. Most of that kind of trash you can just read on some tabloid site.

Look, I'm not saying nobody in the EU sent aid, or even a lot of aid, but in the beginning, things were a mess coming from all different directions. Nowadays, some of those stances have shifted a bit, both within the EU and outside of it. I'm not saying this as a skeptic, but as a citizen who is honestly embarrassed by that specific behavior.

The EU definitely has its issues, but I'm not looking for an exit; I just want those problems fixed so we can actually make the union better.

See, that's the thing—Index is a textbook Euroskeptic outlet (though mostly they just chase clicks). Just look at any of the columns by Vojković or the takes from Babić talking about how sluggish the EU is, the fossilized bureaucracy, how irrelevant European institutions have become (those MEPs who just sit around doing nothing while we pay for them), or stories about how Putin laughed at the EU and how failed the sanctions were. Index only likes the EU when they're busy arresting local politicians that the site is aligned with (like the GOP), or when they need to make the US look bad by saying "we're the worst in the EU," or mocking domestic conservatives because they don't fit the EU mold.

Like, have you ever actually seen an analysis on Index about which statistical data points the Russian Federation stopped releasing once the sanctions really started biting?
The RF stopped showing data on:
- foreign trade balances
- financial reports for major corporations
- capital inflows and outflows
- imports and exports of gas and petroleum products
- central bank data
- air transport data for goods and passengers
- credit exposure and loan data
and so on...

Never. Just like you've never seen reporting on Index regarding European policies, various infrastructure projects, or anything similar. That doesn't get clicks. Instead, you get some "analysis" of French elections written by a 22-year-old student who clearly hasn't a clue about the French political scene and has probably never even set foot in France.

Just because Index is against the "right wing" doesn't mean they aren't pumping out total bullshit regarding what's happening in the EU—which is exactly what matters here, specifically what's going on with the sanctions.

Bryan Jackson12 said:The reality is that Americans simply can't afford to lose this fight. They already took enough of a hit in Afghanistan, and they know China is watching every single move very closely because of the whole situation with Taiwan.

So, the administration in Washington is incredibly driven to see Ukraine succeed, and honestly, the Ukrainians have plenty of reasons to want a win themselves. You also can't overlook the UK; they’re always looking to maintain that "balance of power," so they’re just as motivated to see Russia lose—which doesn't necessarily mean a total Ukrainian victory, but more about weakening Russia significantly.

Putin is trying to weaponize energy, aiming to pressure the European Union into softening sanctions and pulling back support for Ukraine. But if you ask me, he's barking up the wrong tree. About 90% of the military aid is coming from the UK and the USA, both of which don't rely on Russia for their energy needs. They aren't going to sweat the complaints of the Germans, who are really the main players in the EU, though France is there too—and frankly, they're in a much better spot energetically than Germany is.

On paper, Putin’s mobilization looks like an escalation, but it feels like he's just muddying the waters. In the short term, those conscripts won't provide much of a boost. It seems like his goal is just to hold out until winter and solidify positions. In my view, he's trying to set up a negotiating position where he might trade a withdrawal from Kherson and Zaporizhzhia just to grab the whole Donbas.

The real question is how the US will react. If they decide that focusing on Europe isn't worth the cost anymore—especially with China rising and Russia pivoting toward Beijing—they might pull the plug on Ukraine and force everyone to sit down at the bargaining table.

That would be a moderately optimistic outcome. The absolute best-case scenario would be a revolution in Russia that actually topples Putin and his regime, but that feels like a long shot. The kleptocracy Putin built is tight; you've got a massive web of oligarchs and security elites who all depend entirely on him to stay in power.

What seems most realistic to me is a stalemate by winter, followed by the conflict dragging on through the spring and likely throughout next year, and probably longer, all without anyone crossing the line into using nuclear weapons.

That would be a total nightmare, honestly. Not exactly the moderately optimistic outcome I was hoping for. It would basically mean the USA is actively siding with the Russian Federation and just giving them a free pass to do whatever they want.

analogbear70 said:This is a pretty ugly attack and a complete deflection of the argument. Every single post starts with the claim that Russia is the aggressor and that they don't deserve an inch of Ukrainian land, followed by more of this nonsense. I've been following the situation in Ukraine intensely for over ten years. It's tough living with an aggressor in your backyard, but you manage. You wait for better times to make a move. Even the old Republic of Ragusa survived under much worse conditions. Since the Maidan, we've needed more wisdom than anything else. None of that changes the fact that the aggressor is guilty. There's no point in talking at this level. I'm out. Thanks.

What you're doing is a classic "sandwich" move. You start off and end with something people will actually like—or at least what you think they'll dig—just to soften everyone up and make it look like you're on their side. But it's not even something you necessarily believe, I guess. The middle part is where you slip in what you actually want to say.

Sandwich:
Bread: Russia is the aggressor.
Meat: I mean, honestly, the Ukrainians are basically Nazis at this point, so they really need to just grab whatever peace deal comes their way, even if it means losing half their land.
Kruh: I mean, honestly? The Russians don't deserve a single inch of Ukraine.

Kevin Murphy7 said:Kadyrov refused to send any more Muslim meat into the fight for Christianity🍿

I guess he finally realized someone in his own inner circle might take his head, or maybe they're already working on it.

And yet, Ramzan Kadyrov actually sent the relatives of women protesting the war and the crackdowns to work in the front lines.

What kind of nation does that? What kind of system?

It’s funny how all the people here siding with Russia seem to enjoy their freedom of speech and expression so much.

I suppose it's easy to support a cause when you aren't the one fighting to the death just to survive under that regime.

What a state.

Melissa Rivera5 said:That would be a total nightmare, honestly. Not exactly the moderately optimistic outcome I was hoping for. It would basically mean the USA is actively siding with the Russian Federation and just giving them a free pass to do whatever they want.

What you're doing is a classic "sandwich" move. You start off and end with something people will actually like—or at least what you think they'll dig—just to soften everyone up and make it look like you're on their side. But it's not even something you necessarily believe, I guess. The middle part is where you slip in what you actually want to say.

Sandwich:
Bread: Russia is the aggressor.
Meat: I mean, honestly, the Ukrainians are basically Nazis at this point, so they really need to just grab whatever peace deal comes their way, even if it means losing half their land.
Kruh: I mean, honestly? The Russians don't deserve a single inch of Ukraine.

I absolutely love it when someone feels the need to explain my own thoughts back to me... thanks, bye.

Sean Watson3 said:And yet, Ramzan Kadyrov actually sent the relatives of women protesting the war and the crackdowns to work in the front lines.

What kind of nation does that? What kind of system?

It’s funny how all the people here siding with Russia seem to enjoy their freedom of speech and expression so much.

I suppose it's easy to support a cause when you aren't the one fighting to the death just to survive under that regime.

What a state.

I find it genuinely baffling how certain Russophiles scattered across the globe—or even large segments of the population in places like the North America—would much rather live in Munich or Vienna than actually reside in the democratic, free country they seem to daydream about every single day while praising Vladimir Putin.

They sit there in their comfortable Munich or Vienna armchairs, safe and sound, defending Russia and a dictator from a distance. It’s peak comedy, honestly.

It’s honestly heartbreaking to watch these videos coming out of Russia showing the mobilization efforts. 😢

analogbear70 said:This is a pretty ugly attack and a complete deflection of the argument. Every single post starts with the claim that Russia is the aggressor and that they don't deserve an inch of Ukrainian land, followed by more of this nonsense. I've been following the situation in Ukraine intensely for over ten years. It's tough living with an aggressor in your backyard, but you manage. You wait for better times to make a move. Even the old Republic of Ragusa survived under much worse conditions. Since the Maidan, we've needed more wisdom than anything else. None of that changes the fact that the aggressor is guilty. There's no point in talking at this level. I'm out. Thanks.

I really have to watch my step with what I say here.
If you actually saw me in my real life, you'd see how I just tear into all these agitators and provocateurs without a second thought.

Everyone’s acting all "surprised and offended..."

Talking at this level is just pointless. I'm out. Thanks.

🎉

analogbear70 said:I absolutely love it when someone feels the need to explain my own thoughts back to me... thanks, bye.

The guy commented on what you wrote, not what you're thinking.

Nathan Evans78 said:It’s honestly heartbreaking to watch these videos coming out of Russia showing the mobilization efforts. 😢

Yeah. I just hope everyone finds the courage to surrender the very first time they're given the chance.

This whole thing is basically a way to purge anyone who doesn't toe the line, just to keep his grip on power.

wanderingdriver68 said:I find it genuinely baffling how certain Russophiles scattered across the globe—or even large segments of the population in places like the North America—would much rather live in Munich or Vienna than actually reside in the democratic, free country they seem to daydream about every single day while praising Vladimir Putin.

They sit there in their comfortable Munich or Vienna armchairs, safe and sound, defending Russia and a dictator from a distance. It’s peak comedy, honestly.

That’s basically what every Che Guevara major from a liberal arts college looks like to me. Honestly, I'm not even saying they shouldn't go ahead and apply for asylum in North Korea if that's their vibe.

wanderingdriver68 said:I find it genuinely baffling how certain Russophiles scattered across the globe—or even large segments of the population in places like the North America—would much rather live in Munich or Vienna than actually reside in the democratic, free country they seem to daydream about every single day while praising Vladimir Putin.

They sit there in their comfortable Munich or Vienna armchairs, safe and sound, defending Russia and a dictator from a distance. It’s peak comedy, honestly.

So, there are still Russophiles hanging around here after everything? ☕

Nathan Evans78 said:It’s honestly heartbreaking to watch these videos coming out of Russia showing the mobilization efforts. 😢

Link? 🙂

jadetinker85 said:Yeah. I just hope everyone finds the courage to surrender the very first time they're given the chance.

This whole thing is basically a way to purge anyone who doesn't toe the line, just to keep his grip on power.

Sure, but they aren't even needed by the Ukrainians.
First off, they have no idea who they can actually trust.
Second, they barely have enough food or housing for their own people, let alone a massive influx of prisoners or whatever status these people would end up with.

They’re truly pathetic. Honestly, it might be better if that scumbag just sent them to Siberia; they'd probably have a better shot there. They're miserable, but then again, these people are miserable too. You can't tell which group is worse.

jadetinker85 said:Yeah. I just hope everyone finds the courage to surrender the very first time they're given the chance.

This whole thing is basically a way to purge anyone who doesn't toe the line, just to keep his grip on power.

The people fleeing are those who actually possess the resources and the means to leave. Most aren't running because they disagree with the war; they're running from mobilization.
How many Russians have actually made it to Mexico since February? And would you really call them anti-Putin? No, they fled to escape sanctions.
It wouldn't surprise me if 80% of these defectors weren't wearing "Z" patches on their shirts just yesterday.😁
And if Russia starts making headway, don't be shocked to see them marching in support through the streets of Munich.

I feel for the poor minorities trapped in these backwater regions. This isn't even their war. They'll be the ones sent to the front lines while they can't even scrape together a few thousand euros for a plane ticket.

@Ivane, don't wait until the absolute last second.

wiredfalcon2 said:If Macron was actually handing over parts of Ukraine, how do you explain that Macron's France was the single biggest contributor in terms of cash and training for the Ukrainian military between 2014 (after the Crimea annexation) and the start of the full-scale war? Without that training and those resources, the Ukrainian military would have folded in three days. Also, how do you explain why Ukraine is so desperate to join this same EU, when its leading members are basically looking to let Russia take 20% of Ukrainian territory?

See, that's the thing—Index is a textbook Euroskeptic outlet (though mostly they just chase clicks). Just look at any of the columns by Vojković or the takes from Babić talking about how sluggish the EU is, the fossilized bureaucracy, how irrelevant European institutions have become (those MEPs who just sit around doing nothing while we pay for them), or stories about how Putin laughed at the EU and how failed the sanctions were. Index only likes the EU when they're busy arresting local politicians that the site is aligned with (like the GOP), or when they need to make the US look bad by saying "we're the worst in the EU," or mocking domestic conservatives because they don't fit the EU mold.

Like, have you ever actually seen an analysis on Index about which statistical data points the Russian Federation stopped releasing once the sanctions really started biting?
The RF stopped showing data on:
- foreign trade balances
- financial reports for major corporations
- capital inflows and outflows
- imports and exports of gas and petroleum products
- central bank data
- air transport data for goods and passengers
- credit exposure and loan data
and so on...

Never. Just like you've never seen reporting on Index regarding European policies, various infrastructure projects, or anything similar. That doesn't get clicks. Instead, you get some "analysis" of French elections written by a 22-year-old student who clearly hasn't a clue about the French political scene and has probably never even set foot in France.

Just because Index is against the "right wing" doesn't mean they aren't pumping out total bullshit regarding what's happening in the EU—which is exactly what matters here, specifically what's going on with the sanctions.

signed.
It blows my mind, for instance, how a news story from a few months ago about a Yale University study analyzing the impact of sanctions on the RF barely got ten sentences of coverage in the media. No actual breakdown of what was written, nothing. Luckily, the full analysis is available in a PDF for anyone who actually cares, and over a hundred pages long, it provides a solid empirical proof that sanctions aren't working the way people think, but will instead leave a mark on the RF that won't heal for decades.

analogbear70 said:I’ll say it again: if things had been handled more intelligently, this could have been avoided. That doesn't excuse the aggressor—Russia—but rather highlights the failure. The reality is that no one from the UN onwards (aside from the Chinese) is calling for a ceasefire, negotiations, or peace. It’s just weapons, weapons, weapons. Why wasn't equipment being sent to us? Why were we forced to wander the globe like beggars, pleading for help while being treated like an afterthought, all while Zelenskyy calls out the very leaders he needs? Why were we hit with embargos while everyone else looked the other way? We offered up a quarter of our territory before Operation Storm, which I believe ended up in court later. Even then, there was intense domestic opposition, and Feral was constantly critical, while the World media published nothing but half-truths about the downsides of our newly formed nation. None of that exists now. And yet, the Russians remain the aggressors; occupied lands deserve better.

Honestly, these comparisons to our own war are just exhausting. Like, why even? What kills me most is when people start acting all jealous, asking why Ukraine gets weapons and we didn't. And then they go, "Oh, look at those Ukrainian refugees with their fancy cars..."—man, it’s embarrassing to hear comments like that. Seriously. It’s because our war didn't matter to anyone outside our little corner of the map, whereas the war in Ukraine is literally a fight for the survival of the NATO alliance and the entire global order. If you can't wrap your head around that, then I honestly can't blame you for failing to grasp other things too.