The start of the Russian invasion of Ukraine (Part 1)

Keith Williams3 said:So you're saying America isn't a legitimate country just because some people skipped the vote back in '91?
If we’re going to get pedantic about legal technicalities and legitimacy, then no government on Earth would be valid. You guys who support Putin just grab at any tiny excuse to justify your views, without realizing how ridiculous you sound repeating the same nonsense over and over.

That's a bad comparison.

There’s a massive difference between choosing to boycott an election and being physically prevented from voting by the state.

If we can set up polling stations at American consulates in Germany or Canada, why didn't Ukraine do the same thing in Crimea or the Donbas?

Those people held Ukrainian passports before all this, and their citizenship stays valid regardless of what happens to the territory they live in. It's like how when Mexico lost Mexico, they didn't strip Mexicans there of their citizenship.

Here’s a hint: Ukraine didn't want those pro-Russian votes.

Basically, they pushed away a segment of their own citizens, so they aren't really representing "all of Ukraine."

Jason Fox2 said:Wait, where did I even say that? I was just reacting to the idea that Ukraine might end up following the Chechnya route, honestly. I highly doubt Americans would prefer living under those conditions compared to how things are now.

So, what you're getting at is that if Ukraine falls back under Russian influence, they'll end up with a system identical to Chechnya? Some kind of pro-Islamic mini-dictatorship?

The reality is that Chechnya got exactly what aligns with their own value system. If you try to force Western values on them, all you're going to get is a brand new Islamic republic—only this time, they'll have some incredibly capable fighters behind them.

Putin managed to pacify them by letting them set their own internal laws within the region, essentially trading local autonomy for massive amounts of federal financial aid in exchange for loyalty to the federation.

EDIT: Looks like Gritty explained it much better than I did.

Keith Williams3 said:Interesting. Will Europe actually be able to keep paying for gas?

Russia is still sending it—actually, they never stopped. Even during the worst crises, they always stuck to their contracts.

But if Europe stops paying, then they aren't holding up their end of the deal, which means Russia can't keep shipping it, right?

Fuel $13?

Sure, but maybe you're getting three liters for $13, and at current prices $1.25, the real cost is 7 once the government takes its cut in taxes and fees. So, the state could lower the sales tax and fees, and when fuel hits $2.75, they take another 7. That would result in a price of $5.00 per liter, similar to what you see on the highways in Italy today.

Nancy Gomez26 said:That won't happen tomorrow. It’s all about escalation. Sanctions have to be structured so there's always room to tighten the screws; SWIFT is just a massive lever to hold in reserve. You always have to leave them wondering how much more they can lose if they don't change their tune. That said, it feels like we've passed the point where rational logic applies. He doesn't care. He won't blink just because he sees a military advantage. Perhaps the only thing that might deter Putin is actual defeat or massive losses in Ukraine. And achieving that requires a decisive response on the ground—and time.

I’m not so sure about that. For instance, the decision to freeze the assets of Putin and Lavrov was made today. Yesterday, that wasn't on the table.

It seems to me that Europe is trying to hit as hard as possible, announcing things only once an agreement is reached. In reality, they're likely negotiating behind the scenes about what else to throw into the mix. I read somewhere that they're discussing embargoes on exports and the leasing of civilian aircraft and spare parts...

There isn't much left to escalate from here...

feralpilot0 said:She’s caught between two abusive relationships; her only hope for survival is flirting with both sides—two guys who aren't exactly sane—because, frankly, she can't stand on her own.

🤣 🤣

Alright then.... thought I'd throw in a little laugh for once 😁

Now one of those unstable dudes has gone off the deep end, started flirting back with the other guy, and decided that instead of letting her have any fun, he’s gonna demand she only flirts with him and nobody else.

It's either be mine or be nobody's at all.
🙂

Keith Williams3 said:Total misunderstanding of the situation.

The Chechens live how they want. It wasn't the Russians who forced Sharia on them; if anything, they were given actual autonomy, and the Chechens chose their own path. Sure, the Russians crushed the separatism, but they also granted them autonomy and stepped back from the region. Back in '89, Chechens made up maybe 60-70% of the population, but today they’re over 90% and live in an ethnically homogenous area.

Ukrainians will get that same choice eventually.

I agree. Having the freedom to choose is paramount. For Ukrainians today, that freedom would mean the ability to select various types of anti-tank and infantry weaponry.

Are Russian forces conducting a landing at the airport in western Ukraine?

wearyraven25 said:Have the Canadians, Slovaks, Romanians, and Poles actually mobilized their militaries along the border with Ukraine?...

Probably... I was just catching some news on CNN about how Romanian planes intercepted a Ukrainian fighter that drifted into their airspace, since they've been ramping up patrols and staying on high alert since Thursday...

Despite all these massive sanctions being thrown at Russia, there is actually one—

- bit of positive news.... 👍

I was reading online that Russia has been 'sanctioned' over their 'Eurovision song'... 👍 🤣

rape_artist said:Why doesn't the admin just ban the trolls and the brainless kids cheering for blood in the streets?

Look, I’m rooting for one thing: regardless of who wins or what happened today, I want this war over tomorrow. Just so people can get back to living their lives in peace. Dying for some politician's fat ass is total bullshit.

Zelenskyy is literally out there on the streets with his troops—what are we even talking about here? https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/st...deo-of-himself There won't be any peace as long as Russia keeps pointing weapons at another nation...

Honestly, once we Americans finally pull our boots off European soil, that’s when Europe can actually settle into some peace and prosperity.

Until then, the world's policeman is busy cooking up wars and inventing enemies for us to worry about.

William Anderson5 said:I’m not so sure about that. For instance, the decision to freeze the assets of Putin and Lavrov was made today. Yesterday, that wasn't on the table.

It seems to me that Europe is trying to hit as hard as possible, announcing things only once an agreement is reached. In reality, they're likely negotiating behind the scenes about what else to throw into the mix. I read somewhere that they're discussing embargoes on exports and the leasing of civilian aircraft and spare parts...

There isn't much left to escalate from here...

That's all minor details. As top state officials, Putin and Lavrov likely don't even hold significant assets outside of Russia; they simply don't need them.
The aviation issue is a much more difficult sanction to implement, though even then, there are workarounds to temporarily bypass it. Look at how Iran has managed those exact issues for decades. And Russia is far more advanced in those technologies than Iran is. As for SWIFT, that will have to wait a while longer. Personally, I think inviting Finland into NATO will play a much larger role than any sanctions ever will.

Nancy Gomez26 said:That's all minor details. As top state officials, Putin and Lavrov likely don't even hold significant assets outside of Russia; they simply don't need them.
The aviation issue is a much more difficult sanction to implement, though even then, there are workarounds to temporarily bypass it. Look at how Iran has managed those exact issues for decades. And Russia is far more advanced in those technologies than Iran is. As for SWIFT, that will have to wait a while longer. Personally, I think inviting Finland into NATO will play a much larger role than any sanctions ever will.

To be perfectly honest, until a few days ago, I hadn't even heard of SWIFT and have no idea how it could actually affect an economy. However, I discovered that back in 2012, during certain sanctions, Iran was cut off from SWIFT, and I see no evidence that it hindered them—if anything, it did the opposite.

Keith Williams3 said:Total misunderstanding of the situation.

The Chechens live how they want. It wasn't the Russians who forced Sharia on them; if anything, they were given actual autonomy, and the Chechens chose their own path. Sure, the Russians crushed the separatism, but they also granted them autonomy and stepped back from the region. Back in '89, Chechens made up maybe 60-70% of the population, but today they’re over 90% and live in an ethnically homogenous area.

Ukrainians will get that same choice eventually.

Oh great, so the pro-Russian part of Ukraine just carries out ethnic cleansing against Ukrainians while pocketing rubles from Moscow? Honestly, I don't know how you guys can even think like this...

Nancy Gomez26 said:That's all minor details. As top state officials, Putin and Lavrov likely don't even hold significant assets outside of Russia; they simply don't need them.
The aviation issue is a much more difficult sanction to implement, though even then, there are workarounds to temporarily bypass it. Look at how Iran has managed those exact issues for decades. And Russia is far more advanced in those technologies than Iran is. As for SWIFT, that will have to wait a while longer. Personally, I think inviting Finland into NATO will play a much larger role than any sanctions ever will.

I didn't say it wasn't important. I just meant those initial sanctions were essentially the only things everyone could agree on at the moment, and a decision had to be made fast. I think it's clear to them now that the goal isn't to force Russia to calm down—that's not going to happen—but rather to inflict as much economic damage as possible. That's why I think if they had agreed on the SWIFT move, they would have implemented it already; it's not some tactical delay...

Once they reach a consensus, I'm certain they'll announce that sanction too. And it feels like they're rushing toward it. Both the USA and France have already given the green light...

A spokesperson for President Zelenskyy has indicated they’re open to discussing a ceasefire and peace talks with Russia--an interesting development, to say the least.

Keith Williams3 said:Total misunderstanding of the situation.

The Chechens live how they want. It wasn't the Russians who forced Sharia on them; if anything, they were given actual autonomy, and the Chechens chose their own path. Sure, the Russians crushed the separatism, but they also granted them autonomy and stepped back from the region. Back in '89, Chechens made up maybe 60-70% of the population, but today they’re over 90% and live in an ethnically homogenous area.

Ukrainians will get that same choice eventually.

Chechens are really the only ones who managed to hold onto that, mostly because they extracted a blood tax from the Russians. And look at what Putin has done to the other 21 republics within the Russian Federation?
He’s been slowly stripping away the rights they had since the USSR days. Honestly, after 2017 when the last bilateral treaty was scrapped, calling Russia a "Federation" is almost a misnomer because he’s centralized everything important right there in the Kremlin.

Justin Kern67 said:To be perfectly honest, until a few days ago, I hadn't even heard of SWIFT and have no idea how it could actually affect an economy. However, I discovered that back in 2012, during certain sanctions, Iran was cut off from SWIFT, and I see no evidence that it hindered them—if anything, it did the opposite.

It absolutely hurt them. I really don't know where you're getting the idea that it didn't.

rape_artist said:Why doesn't the admin just ban the trolls and those obnoxious kids cheering for bloodshed?

Honestly, I'm just rooting for this whole thing to be over tomorrow, regardless of who "wins" or what happens today. I just want people to get back to their lives in peace. Dying for some politician's fat ass is just pointless.

Tell that to Putin—tell him to pull his occupying army out so everyone can actually live their lives in peace. And yeah, war criminals should definitely face justice, obviously.

Matthew Rodriguez9 said:Honestly, once we Americans finally pull our boots off European soil, that’s when Europe can actually settle into some peace and prosperity.

Until then, the world's policeman is busy cooking up wars and inventing enemies for us to worry about.

I'm all for that. I'm all for an EU military and a federal structure. It's just that now, thanks to Putin's stupidity, we've been pushed even deeper into Sam's embrace...