Who's going to do the dirty work in Utopia?

Amanda Flores88 said:But honestly, the question shouldn't even be about *who* does the work—it's all about how society views the job itself, you know? Like, how much respect are we actually giving it?

If you aren't going to pay someone well, you've got to make the role feel meaningful and actually desirable, rather than treating it like some kind of punishment.

At the end of the day, a job is only as attractive as the value we put on it. It's that simple. Jobs aren't "unattractive" just because they're complex, tough, or dangerous; they're unattractive because they're undervalued and underpaid. Money and status—that's the real driver.

We already live in a society driven by greed and ego—it’s not exactly a blueprint for progress. What you're describing is some kind of utopia. People who are purely motivated by their bank accounts or social standing? They aren't the ones building a better world. They're just maintaining the status quo.

gentlerider7 said:... Well, sure, if you're living in a cutthroat capitalist machine, yeah, that holds water.

That's exactly why the USSR cooked up that whole "Stakhanovite" nonsense—you know, those supposed labor heroes who were supposed to smash production quotas just to prove how much of a patriot they were. They tried to manufacture motivation out of thin air.

But let’s be real, does anyone actually give a damn about a shiny medal or a pat on the back anymore? Not really. Most people would trade a commemorative plaque for a fat direct deposit in their bank account any day of the week.

Yeah, having prestige without any actual clout doesn't get you very far.

Still, why is it so much easier to daydream about some tech magic wand that teleports society into a utopia without the messy parts, rather than actually changing how we view things?

Amanda Flores88 said:Honestly, the only real difference between those "men's jobs" and "women's jobs" is that the guys actually get paid better. Even when you're talking about pro football players. 😛

Men watch more sports, and frankly, more men are high-level athletes. I doubt models make more than... well, let's just say certain other professions.

The difference is also that women tend to avoid the grit. They aren't interested in blood, sanitation, or oil rigs. Risk-taking in business isn't really their thing either. They'd rather stay in an office and complain about their manicure being ruined.

ruggedraven36 said:We already live in a society driven by greed and ego—it’s not exactly a blueprint for progress. What you're describing is some kind of utopia. People who are purely motivated by their bank accounts or social standing? They aren't the ones building a better world. They're just maintaining the status quo.

That's a bit different from the people who'd want to swap out surgeons for garbage collectors, or somehow turn someone without an education into a pilot. Specialization, trade, and the monetization of labor have been the backbone of human progress since the Stone Age—starting with simple barter, obviously. There’s nothing utopian about being foolish.

Amanda Flores88 said:Yeah, having prestige without any actual clout doesn't get you very far.

Still, why is it so much easier to daydream about some tech magic wand that teleports society into a utopia without the messy parts, rather than actually changing how we view things?

Change our attitude toward what, specifically?

bluemason3 said:That's a bit different from the people who'd want to swap out surgeons for garbage collectors, or somehow turn someone without an education into a pilot. Specialization, trade, and the monetization of labor have been the backbone of human progress since the Stone Age—starting with simple barter, obviously. There’s nothing utopian about being foolish.

That isn't the key to progress. Real progress comes from evolving our consciousness regarding freedom.

ruggedraven36 said:That isn't the key to progress. Real progress comes from evolving our consciousness regarding freedom.

And by cranking up this vibrational energy to a density of 5...👍

gentlerider7 said:So, if we’re looking at those gritty, soul-crushing jobs that nobody actually wants to touch—you know, the stuff like cleaning out sewers, hauling trash, or working deep in some dusty coal mine—how on earth would you handle them in some kind of perfect, imaginary system?

In Thomas Moore's version of Utopia, they’d basically just have criminals do all that dirty work (kind of like how things functioned in the USSR, where prisoners were stuck doing all the high-risk labor). Then again, there are always those weirdly optimistic people who argue there will always be someone out there perfectly happy to take on those kinds of roles.

I remember seeing this other thread about communal living, and people were saying that every single commune eventually falls apart because of these exact issues: like, who's actually going to cook the meals, and who's going to deal with the gross job of cleaning the bathrooms?

In a total Utopia, every single need gets met—I mean, let's be real, nobody actually wants to deal with someone else's mess... so if you think about it, a true Utopia just can't exist as long as there's still garbage to clean up...
Look, let's be real for a second—life basically boils down to eating and... well, doing our business just to stay alive. If we're talking about doing that stuff out in the woods instead of using a bathroom, then I guess a true Utopia wouldn't even have toilets in it... maybe...

I honestly feel like cleaning the toilet is just a fundamental part of the whole bathroom process—like, you can't separate them. It’s only fair that we clean up our own messes, or at least pay someone else to handle it for us, so we can get back to being paid to deal with everyone else's bullshit and nonsense...

Donna White50 said:In a total Utopia, every single need gets met—I mean, let's be real, nobody actually wants to deal with someone else's mess... so if you think about it, a true Utopia just can't exist as long as there's still garbage to clean up...
Look, let's be real for a second—life basically boils down to eating and... well, doing our business just to stay alive. If we're talking about doing that stuff out in the woods instead of using a bathroom, then I guess a true Utopia wouldn't even have toilets in it... maybe...

I honestly feel like cleaning the toilet is just a fundamental part of the whole bathroom process—like, you can't separate them. It’s only fair that we clean up our own messes, or at least pay someone else to handle it for us, so we can get back to being paid to deal with everyone else's bullshit and nonsense...

That’s an anti-utopia, plain and simple. A society with zero momentum—no future left to build. Just the end of the line.

bluemason3 said:Men watch more sports, and frankly, more men are high-level athletes. I doubt models make more than... well, let's just say certain other professions.

The difference is also that women tend to avoid the grit. They aren't interested in blood, sanitation, or oil rigs. Risk-taking in business isn't really their thing either. They'd rather stay in an office and complain about their manicure being ruined.

Look at you, getting paid well to shove a female-dominated job into something where you can't even argue with the money, though at least you can brag about the prestige.

And this whole idea that women stay away from blood, trash, and oil? Seriously? Women deal with filth, garbage, and pretty much every human secretion imaginable—not to mention seeing blood at least once a month... and let's not forget those stories about how guys start writing their wills just because they have a sore throat. 😁

bluemason3 said:Sure, sanitation workers, sewage crews, and miners are all women too. Just because they enjoy complaining about it doesn't mean they aren't stuck doing the absolute worst jobs out there. ☕

Physical labor will probably shrink anyway thanks to automation, and since utopias don't exist, there's really no point in chasing them.

Communes fail because, by definition, they're just escapist clubs for naive idiots who can't adapt.

Though, they're still slightly less idiotic than those (former) socialists who thought they could just rotate tasks and split everything up equally among everyone.

Sanitation workers get paid for their labor; women playing at being garbage collectors just stay home and don't see a paycheck.

Donna White50 said:In a total Utopia, every single need gets met—I mean, let's be real, nobody actually wants to deal with someone else's mess... so if you think about it, a true Utopia just can't exist as long as there's still garbage to clean up...
Look, let's be real for a second—life basically boils down to eating and... well, doing our business just to stay alive. If we're talking about doing that stuff out in the woods instead of using a bathroom, then I guess a true Utopia wouldn't even have toilets in it... maybe...

I honestly feel like cleaning the toilet is just a fundamental part of the whole bathroom process—like, you can't separate them. It’s only fair that we clean up our own messes, or at least pay someone else to handle it for us, so we can get back to being paid to deal with everyone else's bullshit and nonsense...

Look, utopia isn't just some fancy word for perfection. It’s more about having a North Star—something to help us imagine "what could be" if we actually tried.

Amanda Flores88 said:Look at you, getting paid well to shove a female-dominated job into something where you can't even argue with the money, though at least you can brag about the prestige.

And this whole idea that women stay away from blood, trash, and oil? Seriously? Women deal with filth, garbage, and pretty much every human secretion imaginable—not to mention seeing blood at least once a month... and let's not forget those stories about how guys start writing their wills just because they have a sore throat. 😁

A man cleans up sewage and gets a paycheck for it; a woman cleans up the mess at home and doesn't get a dime, nor even a simple thank you.

gentlerider7 said:Change our attitude toward what, specifically?

Talking about those types of jobs. It’s way easier to dream up some utopia where those roles don't even exist than to actually give the people doing them better status. I mean, isn't the whole point of a utopia to get rid of those kinds of gaps? But can we honestly build a society where people aren't constantly trying to outdo one another? Even if you wiped those specific jobs off the map, that drive to stand out wouldn't just vanish—you'd just end up with a different hierarchy based on time, talent, or whatever else.

Amanda Flores88 said:Talking about those types of jobs. It’s way easier to dream up some utopia where those roles don't even exist than to actually give the people doing them better status. I mean, isn't the whole point of a utopia to get rid of those kinds of gaps? But can we honestly build a society where people aren't constantly trying to outdo one another? Even if you wiped those specific jobs off the map, that drive to stand out wouldn't just vanish—you'd just end up with a different hierarchy based on time, talent, or whatever else.

I feel like there are really only two ways this plays out. You've got the Platonov approach, which is basically building this perfectly structured, hyper-rational hierarchy with the philosophers or the smartest minds sitting at the top pulling the strings. Then you've got the whole equality thing, which sounds great on paper, but let's be honest—that kind of total equality is only actually doable in a world where everyone genuinely loves each other and we're all just one big group of best friends.

Donna White50 said:In a total Utopia, every single need gets met—I mean, let's be real, nobody actually wants to deal with someone else's mess... so if you think about it, a true Utopia just can't exist as long as there's still garbage to clean up...
Look, let's be real for a second—life basically boils down to eating and... well, doing our business just to stay alive. If we're talking about doing that stuff out in the woods instead of using a bathroom, then I guess a true Utopia wouldn't even have toilets in it... maybe...

I honestly feel like cleaning the toilet is just a fundamental part of the whole bathroom process—like, you can't separate them. It’s only fair that we clean up our own messes, or at least pay someone else to handle it for us, so we can get back to being paid to deal with everyone else's bullshit and nonsense...

... and pretty much everything else that follows 🤣 👍

gentlerider7 said:Look, utopia isn't just some fancy word for perfection. It’s more about having a North Star—something to help us imagine "what could be" if we actually tried.

What’s missing right now is just perspective—you have the chance to pick whatever you want and live life on your own terms. You always have that option, you know? Just find some peace and build your own little utopia based on what makes you happy...
The thing is, most people would want all four elements floating in mid-air while someone else cleans up their mess and lives strictly by their rules, right? That's the real issue...

Donna White50 said:What’s missing right now is just perspective—you have the chance to pick whatever you want and live life on your own terms. You always have that option, you know? Just find some peace and build your own little utopia based on what makes you happy...
The thing is, most people would want all four elements floating in mid-air while someone else cleans up their mess and lives strictly by their rules, right? That's the real issue...

Some people would probably tell you it's just plain old justice that's gone missing.

gentlerider7 said:Some people would probably tell you it's just plain old justice that's gone missing.

I mean, if you go back a hundred years, human rights or actual justice didn't even exist...

In a utopia, there is no such thing as dirty work, because an idealist will pay any price to live within it.

You scrape the bottom of the barrel willingly. You eliminate class enemies at will, hand over family members to the gallows at will, and so on...
It doesn't matter if it feels like hell on earth, as long as you are moving toward that collective goal—a freedom where everyone is a slave, an equality where everyone is destitute, and a brotherhood where everyone would rather kill one another.