Where is spirituality taking us? Is it getting dangerous?

wearyowl29 said:Nope.

It honestly baffles me that some people actually own these things—and they're even sending out missionaries using the wrong PDF!

We’re all out here spreading our own versions of the truth—you, atheists, everyone. If we’re writing about what we believe in, isn't that basically missionary work? As for why I'm posting in the wrong spot—well, because the mods on that forum aren't Christians, and they didn't like me defending the Christian faith. They banned me just for being a missionary for my beliefs, even if it wasn't strictly religious. It sounds strange, but it's the truth. Meanwhile, anyone who aggressively attacks our Christian beliefs is more than welcome there. It’s a total paradox—especially in a country like America where 80% of us are Christian, whether we're devout or just go through the motions.

Zachary Cox69 said:That's just not right. If you haven't made things right with God, then you're headed to hell.
"There are many inside who are actually outside, and plenty of those outside who are truly inside"—that's what the Catholic theologian and priest Hans Küng once said.
By the way, I'd highly recommend his book "The existence of God" to anyone interested.
When I was personally moving away from atheism and turning back toward God, it really helped me out.

This whole "inside and outside" thing refers to the Catholic Church and the Kingdom of God—basically, heaven.

What kind of God sends His own kids down to eternal hell?

Seriously, would you ever send your own children to hell?

electrocon

Yahweh in the Old Testament...

The first God to reveal Himself used the phrase "I am"—it was that specific name... essentially representing pure existence.
Eheye asher eheye (derived from "to be," meaning "I will be"... I'm not sure how else to explain that concept). Yahweh is basically a derivative of that idea.

So, what happened when that prayer was answered?

JHVH means "I am" or "I am who I am."
What actually happened was that I received the Holy Spirit. We call that being born again.
Check out John chapter 3—that's where Jesus Nicodemus explains what needs to happen to be saved. "You must be born again, of the Spirit."
Most Catholics believe we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism. I don't buy that. I'm Charismatic, and I didn't receive the Spirit back then. Instead, there was this supernatural encounter with God on an internal level—even if there were some "external effects" too. It changed my whole way of living and thinking. Think about how the Apostle Paul experienced it—that encounter with Christ was a total 180 for his life.
Certain Protestants really lean into this idea of being born again—people like Baptists, Methodists, Pentecostals, and Catholic Charismatics.

David Vaughn75 said:What kind of God sends His own kids down to eternal hell?

Seriously, would you ever send your own children to hell?

And what kind of god turns you into a rat, a snake, a monkey, or an elephant through reincarnation?

God doesn't send anyone to hell—it’s our choice. If we decide that's how we want to live, there isn't a God in the world who can step in and save us. Besides, escaping hell is actually pretty simple. Nobody earns their way into heaven; we get in solely through God's grace. Heaven = eternal life.
Simple? Well, being saved from hell is easy—just have some sincere repentance for your sins and you're set.
Let me put it this way: you live a decent, moral life, you're a good father, and you teach your kid to do the same—telling them drugs are a dead end and they should stay far away from them. Then, the kid ignores you, starts using in secret, and dies young. Are you the one to blame for them turning their life into a living hell? You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved.

Zachary Cox69 said:Quincy:

elektrokon

Quincy:

Look, going back to what I was saying—are we saying a person is justified before God (the Father) by their actions rather than just sucking up and saying "Lord, Lord"?

We’re definitely on the same page there. If someone keeps chanting "Lord, Lord" but they're actually a bad person doing evil things, that "Lord" talk doesn't mean a thing. Personally, I’d say it takes both good works and calling on the "Lord" to save a person. As James the Apostle put it in his letter, "Faith without works is dead."

Quincy:

Does that mean faith in Him isn't the main point, and a moral life is the primary criteria instead?

No—Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Quincy:

From your perspective, can an atheist make it into the kingdom of heaven?

They can't. Even though some Popes have suggested otherwise (since they've said it).
Back to James again:
"Otherwise, someone might say, 'You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.'
James 2:19: You believe that there is one God? Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder.
James 2:20: Do you want to know, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?"
So, it’s not just faith alone, nor is it just works alone. Protestants sort of muddied the waters there. Their founding motto was "Sola gratia, sola fide, sola scriptura."
I think Martin Luther even wanted to pull James's letter out of the New Testament because James places such a heavy emphasis on works. Works *have* to be the result of faith.
Quincy:

I need you to answer all three questions. Don't just quote stuff—I've already read all that.

Well, I have to quote—I guess I’m a "sola scriptura" kind of believer, haha. As Christians, we should think according to God, not our own whims. What God communicated through His prophets and apostles is what matters. That said, "sola gratia" is also right, because we are saved by God's grace; you can't earn salvation through works.

Naturally, having no brain at all seems to be a prerequisite here.😁

Zachary Cox69 said:And what kind of god turns you into a rat, a snake, a monkey, or an elephant through reincarnation?

God doesn't send anyone to hell—it’s our choice. If we decide that's how we want to live, there isn't a God in the world who can step in and save us. Besides, escaping hell is actually pretty simple. Nobody earns their way into heaven; we get in solely through God's grace. Heaven = eternal life.
Simple? Well, being saved from hell is easy—just have some sincere repentance for your sins and you're set.
Let me put it this way: you live a decent, moral life, you're a good father, and you teach your kid to do the same—telling them drugs are a dead end and they should stay far away from them. Then, the kid ignores you, starts using in secret, and dies young. Are you the one to blame for them turning their life into a living hell? You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved.

Honestly, we all evolved from animals. It’s just us, our distant ancestors... like, my great-great-great-grandma was probably a fish or something. ☕

God doesn't send anyone to hell. That's entirely on us.

Once again, you’re painting God like he's some almighty Hitler or a total idiot. He created beings who will spend the other half of eternity listening to the horrific screams of skin sizzling in hell, while his holy fig trees sing psalms in paradise to praise Lord Hallelujah. It's just like all those buddies from the New Testament—the eternal virgin, Jesus Nicodemus, various Catholic saints, the apostles, Joseph, who clearly wasn't that devoted to his wife, and all the rest of the characters from that brutal Greek fairy tale.

If we've already decided to live this way, there isn't a God out there who can save us. Getting saved from hell is actually the easy part.

Just typical inquisitor nonsense. "It’s easy enough to dodge the stake—just kiss a cross and call it a day," they say. Typical.

Nobody actually earns their way into heaven. It’s all about God's grace if we're ever going to make it to eternal life.

So basically, being a decent human being doesn't matter at all. It’s not about your actions or helping people; it’s just about picking a side in some Christian political party and checking the box that says you "accept Christ."

Easy? Honestly, just repent for your sins and you're saved from hell. Simple as that.

Even if you get caught in the crossfire, getting out easy enough.
Either you get on board with Muhammad, or you're going to lose your head.
Easy enough.

It’s just as easy to walk away from Jesus-God when he starts throwing around ultimatums like that.

Look, let me make this simple. You live a decent life, you stay moral, you’re a good dad, and you teach your kid to do the same. You hammer home that drugs are poison and tell them to stay far away from that life. Then they ignore everything, go out and get hooked, and die young. Are you really the one to blame for them turning their own life into a living hell?

At the end of the day, you're the only one responsible for your own life.
Are you really planning to slow-cook Hitler over a low flame for thousands of years? Honestly, even he didn't deserve that kind of sadism.

You can't save someone who isn't looking to be saved.

Is a sadistic God crazy for predicting that most of His creations would choose to throw themselves into an eternal lake of fire just because they felt like it? It’s like He created this whole God-Jesus madman persona just to enjoy watching people suffer in hellfire, claiming, "well, they asked for it." 😵 🤦

Being part of these hellish religions is going to become a massive embarrassment, no matter how much those religious fanatics brag about their own brutality and sadism.

It's honestly pathetic that we let our kids get indoctrinated by this hellish Jesus Christ invented by some Greeks.

wearyowl29 said:Well, in my case, they baptized me and didn't ask me a single question!

It's actually pretty tough to "un-baptize" yourself because the organization doesn't want to rock the boat. They love keeping those numbers high for their statistics, even though in reality, they're smaller than they look since for most people, it's just cultural folklore and tradition rather than an actual way of life.

************************************************** *
Nimrod

Listen, Anthony Perez9, I'm un-baptizing you.

IN THE NAME OF THE MOTHER,
THE DAUGHTER
AND THE HOLY SPIRIT
(or whatever you want, or just in your own name, or yours alone)

forever,
before the magical baptism ritual,
during it,
and for all time after.

Aron Ra.
************************************************** *

There. It's not dangerous and won't hurt anyone.

P.S.: If you're already un-baptized, might as well do it again, just to be safe. 🙂

Note: Un-baptizing doesn't cost you anything. You can still enjoy the advent in town, decorate a tree, listen to choir music, duck into a church if it starts raining, or just make the sign of the cross if some fanatics give you a dirty look.

bluemason3 said:Naturally, having no brain at all seems to be a prerequisite here.😁

Look, people with heads like yours tend to lose their way sometimes—even when they think they’re being logical. I have respect for what you know—you've got a lot of expertise under your belt in plenty of different areas—but you can't just intellectualize the truth about God. If that were possible, every "expert" out there would be either a believer or an atheist. And we both know that isn't how it works. Sounds familiar, right? "I know that I know nothing."
Look, take some advice from an amateur like me—what if you just sent God a text? Something like, "If You’re actually out there, help me figure out what the truth about You really is."
If you’re being honest, you might just watch that whole house of cards come crashing down—and I know you wouldn't want to take that risk.

lonestag15 said:Nah... and who would I even ask? You’d probably just run into some mediocre priest who’d stare at you like you were some idiot staring at a cow with spots...

It’s just... you know... that feeling... there's no time... damn, how do I even put this into words... I remember experiencing it, but I don't have the strength to explain right now...

And eternity? That's it... haha... one word and it's simple enough... 😉

I asked... two priests... what "ages of ages" actually means...
And just like you said—they just blinked and went blank. 😁

Anthony Perez9 said:Honestly, we all evolved from animals. It’s just us, our distant ancestors... like, my great-great-great-grandma was probably a fish or something. ☕

God doesn't send anyone to hell. That's entirely on us.

Once again, you’re painting God like he's some almighty Hitler or a total idiot. He created beings who will spend the other half of eternity listening to the horrific screams of skin sizzling in hell, while his holy fig trees sing psalms in paradise to praise Lord Hallelujah. It's just like all those buddies from the New Testament—the eternal virgin, Jesus Nicodemus, various Catholic saints, the apostles, Joseph, who clearly wasn't that devoted to his wife, and all the rest of the characters from that brutal Greek fairy tale.

If we've already decided to live this way, there isn't a God out there who can save us. Getting saved from hell is actually the easy part.

Just typical inquisitor nonsense. "It’s easy enough to dodge the stake—just kiss a cross and call it a day," they say. Typical.

Nobody actually earns their way into heaven. It’s all about God's grace if we're ever going to make it to eternal life.

So basically, being a decent human being doesn't matter at all. It’s not about your actions or helping people; it’s just about picking a side in some Christian political party and checking the box that says you "accept Christ."

Easy? Honestly, just repent for your sins and you're saved from hell. Simple as that.

Even if you get caught in the crossfire, getting out easy enough.
Either you get on board with Muhammad, or you're going to lose your head.
Easy enough.

It’s just as easy to walk away from Jesus-God when he starts throwing around ultimatums like that.

Look, let me make this simple. You live a decent life, you stay moral, you’re a good dad, and you teach your kid to do the same. You hammer home that drugs are poison and tell them to stay far away from that life. Then they ignore everything, go out and get hooked, and die young. Are you really the one to blame for them turning their own life into a living hell?

At the end of the day, you're the only one responsible for your own life.
Are you really planning to slow-cook Hitler over a low flame for thousands of years? Honestly, even he didn't deserve that kind of sadism.

You can't save someone who isn't looking to be saved.

Is a sadistic God crazy for predicting that most of His creations would choose to throw themselves into an eternal lake of fire just because they felt like it? It’s like He created this whole God-Jesus madman persona just to enjoy watching people suffer in hellfire, claiming, "well, they asked for it." 😵 🤦

Being part of these hellish religions is going to become a massive embarrassment, no matter how much those religious fanatics brag about their own brutality and sadism.

It's honestly pathetic that we let our kids get indoctrinated by this hellish Jesus Christ invented by some Greeks.

There was this guy on another forum who thought he had power, like control over lightning or something. We used to call him "Thunderbolt" just to mock him. A total nutcase.
After a few exchanges, realizing he was completely unhinged, I stopped responding. But he kept messaging me. For years. Like a tick, just latched onto me. Pathetic pleas like, "Please, I'm not reading you, please."
It was useless. You're just like him—I'm not reading you, you're not interesting, yet you keep pushing. Seriously, stop. There are other people on this forum; go chat with them, you're boring me. I'm not reading you—just get lost. If you have any integrity left (though I doubt it), you'll do it.

Zachary Cox69 said:There was this guy on another forum who thought he had power, like control over lightning or something. We used to call him "Thunderbolt" just to mock him. A total nutcase.
After a few exchanges, realizing he was completely unhinged, I stopped responding. But he kept messaging me. For years. Like a tick, just latched onto me. Pathetic pleas like, "Please, I'm not reading you, please."
It was useless. You're just like him—I'm not reading you, you're not interesting, yet you keep pushing. Seriously, stop. There are other people on this forum; go chat with them, you're boring me. I'm not reading you—just get lost. If you have any integrity left (though I doubt it), you'll do it.

You've officially lost it. 🤦

Stick to the topic and try to give coherent replies, if you're even capable of that.
Since you clearly can't, try reading my posts carefully a few times, then sit in silence and meditate on them. 😛
There's always something new to learn, I guess. 👍

Zachary Cox69 said:And what kind of god turns you into a rat, a snake, a monkey, or an elephant through reincarnation?

God doesn't send anyone to hell—it’s our choice. If we decide that's how we want to live, there isn't a God in the world who can step in and save us. Besides, escaping hell is actually pretty simple. Nobody earns their way into heaven; we get in solely through God's grace. Heaven = eternal life.
Simple? Well, being saved from hell is easy—just have some sincere repentance for your sins and you're set.
Let me put it this way: you live a decent, moral life, you're a good father, and you teach your kid to do the same—telling them drugs are a dead end and they should stay far away from them. Then, the kid ignores you, starts using in secret, and dies young. Are you the one to blame for them turning their life into a living hell? You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved.

Righteous.

God doesn't send anyone to hell. That's our call. If that's how we choose to live, there isn't a God in the universe who can swoop in and save us. And honestly, escaping hell is easy. Nobody actually earns their way into heaven; we get in purely through God's grace. Heaven equals eternal life.
Easy? Man, being saved from hell is easy—you just offer up some sincere repentance for your sins and boom, you're set.
Let me break it down for you—suppose you live a decent, moral life. You're a solid father, you teach your kid the right way to live, you warn them that drugs are garbage and they should stay far away from that stuff. Then the kid ignores everything, starts using in secret, and dies young. Are you the one at fault for turning their life into a living hell? You can't save someone who has zero interest in being saved.

So, what are you getting at? That God isn't all-powerful because He can't stop someone from heading straight to hell?

I mean, I have never met a single person who actually *wants* to choose hell for themselves—have you?

Anthony Perez9 said:Honestly, we all evolved from animals. It’s just us, our distant ancestors... like, my great-great-great-grandma was probably a fish or something. ☕

God doesn't send anyone to hell. That's entirely on us.

Once again, you’re painting God like he's some almighty Hitler or a total idiot. He created beings who will spend the other half of eternity listening to the horrific screams of skin sizzling in hell, while his holy fig trees sing psalms in paradise to praise Lord Hallelujah. It's just like all those buddies from the New Testament—the eternal virgin, Jesus Nicodemus, various Catholic saints, the apostles, Joseph, who clearly wasn't that devoted to his wife, and all the rest of the characters from that brutal Greek fairy tale.

If we've already decided to live this way, there isn't a God out there who can save us. Getting saved from hell is actually the easy part.

Just typical inquisitor nonsense. "It’s easy enough to dodge the stake—just kiss a cross and call it a day," they say. Typical.

Nobody actually earns their way into heaven. It’s all about God's grace if we're ever going to make it to eternal life.

So basically, being a decent human being doesn't matter at all. It’s not about your actions or helping people; it’s just about picking a side in some Christian political party and checking the box that says you "accept Christ."

Easy? Honestly, just repent for your sins and you're saved from hell. Simple as that.

Even if you get caught in the crossfire, getting out easy enough.
Either you get on board with Muhammad, or you're going to lose your head.
Easy enough.

It’s just as easy to walk away from Jesus-God when he starts throwing around ultimatums like that.

Look, let me make this simple. You live a decent life, you stay moral, you’re a good dad, and you teach your kid to do the same. You hammer home that drugs are poison and tell them to stay far away from that life. Then they ignore everything, go out and get hooked, and die young. Are you really the one to blame for them turning their own life into a living hell?

At the end of the day, you're the only one responsible for your own life.
Are you really planning to slow-cook Hitler over a low flame for thousands of years? Honestly, even he didn't deserve that kind of sadism.

You can't save someone who isn't looking to be saved.

Is a sadistic God crazy for predicting that most of His creations would choose to throw themselves into an eternal lake of fire just because they felt like it? It’s like He created this whole God-Jesus madman persona just to enjoy watching people suffer in hellfire, claiming, "well, they asked for it." 😵 🤦

Being part of these hellish religions is going to become a massive embarrassment, no matter how much those religious fanatics brag about their own brutality and sadism.

It's honestly pathetic that we let our kids get indoctrinated by this hellish Jesus Christ invented by some Greeks.

And honestly? That’s the biggest flaw in the whole Christian religion, if you ask me.

If wonderful Buddhists, Muslims, or Hindus are all headed for the scrap heap just because they aren't Christians, then it means God cares way more about the packaging than what's actually inside the box.
It makes it feel like your actions don't matter at all—like you could be out there saving lives, but it won't count unless someone splashes some holy water on your head.

Anthony Perez9 said:Was Jesus Christ actually moral? Hardly. He was just your run-of-the-mill religious fanatic.
There's zero morality when the punishment is infinitely disproportionate to any "sin"—that whole hellscape concept is just something this fictional character from some Greek myth "according to Mark" dragged into our world. It's honestly revolting.
Once a believer actually starts using their brain, they stop believing in a demonic God Jesus. But that's a hard pill to swallow since the clergy loves indoctrinating kids, either directly or through their parents. They thrive on that parasitic mix of faith and nationalism.

..that was just part of a comment from a guy from Lick I didn't delete, messed up the quote...

Regarding morality, the Catholic upbringing relies heavily on oral tradition, and a lot of it has been applied over the last 2,000 years... for instance, the idea that sin can be a thought, a word, an action, or even an omission is a pretty decent doctrine.

As for Jesus, did he even exist? My history professor told me he did... hmm... though the evidence isn't exactly stacked in his favor...

And his teachings aren't entirely off base (the punishment comes from his mouth as a warning, whereas revelation is where that threat actually gets fulfilled). Sure, the idea of eternal burning in hell and that extreme black-and-white good vs. evil contrast is definitely too radical... whatever, if some people's behavior depends on fearing a fictional punishment, then who cares if the threat is useful or not... hmm... to keep a mob in line 2,000 years ago, it probably worked wonders—just like Moses' laws worked for the era he lived in, dealing with total lawlessness and the crowd he was leading.

So, it’s generally interesting to read the Bible and place those events and teachings within the context of the time they happened... and realistically, if ethics were taught properly in schools from a young age today, religion wouldn't even be necessary.

And again, it all comes down to how you're raised at home; you practically can't escape nationalism if it's being pushed within the family. Same goes for blind faith.

Whatever, I always say every family raises their kids their own way, and nobody wants outside influence on how they raise their child.

The solution is simple: don't sign the kid up for religious ed, and don't baptize them either.

Zachary Cox69 said:Quincy:

elektrokon

Quincy:

Look, going back to what I was saying—are we saying a person is justified before God (the Father) by their actions rather than just sucking up and saying "Lord, Lord"?

We’re definitely on the same page there. If someone keeps chanting "Lord, Lord" but they're actually a bad person doing evil things, that "Lord" talk doesn't mean a thing. Personally, I’d say it takes both good works and calling on the "Lord" to save a person. As James the Apostle put it in his letter, "Faith without works is dead."

Quincy:

Does that mean faith in Him isn't the main point, and a moral life is the primary criteria instead?

No—Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Quincy:

From your perspective, can an atheist make it into the kingdom of heaven?

They can't. Even though some Popes have suggested otherwise (since they've said it).
Back to James again:
"Otherwise, someone might say, 'You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by my works.'
James 2:19: You believe that there is one God? Good! Even the demons believe—and shudder.
James 2:20: Do you want to know, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless?"
So, it’s not just faith alone, nor is it just works alone. Protestants sort of muddied the waters there. Their founding motto was "Sola gratia, sola fide, sola scriptura."
I think Martin Luther even wanted to pull James's letter out of the New Testament because James places such a heavy emphasis on works. Works *have* to be the result of faith.
Quincy:

I need you to answer all three questions. Don't just quote stuff—I've already read all that.

Well, I have to quote—I guess I’m a "sola scriptura" kind of believer, haha. As Christians, we should think according to God, not our own whims. What God communicated through His prophets and apostles is what matters. That said, "sola gratia" is also right, because we are saved by God's grace; you can't earn salvation through works.

But what if someone has literally never even heard of Jesus and hasn't been baptized, yet they live a totally righteous life?

David Vaughn75 said:Righteous.

God doesn't send anyone to hell. That's our call. If that's how we choose to live, there isn't a God in the universe who can swoop in and save us. And honestly, escaping hell is easy. Nobody actually earns their way into heaven; we get in purely through God's grace. Heaven equals eternal life.
Easy? Man, being saved from hell is easy—you just offer up some sincere repentance for your sins and boom, you're set.
Let me break it down for you—suppose you live a decent, moral life. You're a solid father, you teach your kid the right way to live, you warn them that drugs are garbage and they should stay far away from that stuff. Then the kid ignores everything, starts using in secret, and dies young. Are you the one at fault for turning their life into a living hell? You can't save someone who has zero interest in being saved.

So, what are you getting at? That God isn't all-powerful because He can't stop someone from heading straight to hell?

I mean, I have never met a single person who actually *wants* to choose hell for themselves—have you?

So you actually buy into the whole incarnation thing?

Thomas Nelson25 said:I asked... two priests... what "ages of ages" actually means...
And just like you said—they just blinked and went blank. 😁

I did the same thing once—asked about some stuff in Genesis that didn't make sense to me... got a total deer-in-the-headlights look, haha... especially when I brought up launching a space shuttle to Mars.

lonestag15 said:So you actually buy into the whole incarnation thing?

Yeah, I do.

David Vaughn75 said:Yeah, I do.

So, is there like... a waiting room phase? A period where the soul just exists without a body before the next reincarnation kicks in? If so, what determines the timing?
And does the soul actually get a say in what it reincarnates into?

lonestag15 said:But what if someone has literally never even heard of Jesus and hasn't been baptized, yet they live a totally righteous life?

Who hasn't heard of that made-up character? They shove him in front of every newborn in the country and push the narrative in every corner of the globe.

And what does "heard of Jesus" even mean? Every Christian sect has its own version of Jesus they swear by. As far as I can tell, the only one who actually "heard" him was Paul after he hit the pavement. Along with a bunch of other dreamers.

Everyone’s heard the story, so nobody gets an excuse if they don't buy in—which means they just head straight for the lake of fire... ☕

The idea that telling people they'll be tossed into Jesus's eternal Inquisition-style camp for being disobedient somehow "refines" the human soul? Honestly, I think it just brutalizes the mind and primes people for religiously sanctioned violence and spiritual stupidity. It's the same old story, whether it's today or thousands of years ago. It's like people back then were barely even human.